Hey guys, my id is Probe, and I am a Australian Protoss players currently on the team ROOT. Regarding my league I currently have two accounts in KR GM, although both aren't very well ranked.
I was meaning to write these articles for some time now, but I have been very busy at uni and with some other stuff. But finally I got some motivation to write my thoughts down on some of the game design aspects in Starcraft 2.
With blizzard making changes to LOTV at the end of this year, let's have a good discussion.
Even if you don't agree with them at all, I would just love to see anything tested.
My first topic is on...
The Oracle
Problem: My main issue with oracles is that they can end games so easily at casual/lower levels. At the pro level, we hardly ever see an oracle just straight up end the game, and this is because the higher level players have the multitasking and experience to deal with it. Usually they just force some extra defenses and maybe a kill a few drones. The utility later that oracles provide balances out the oracle not doing very much damage. So my claim here is not that oracles are underpowered or overpowered, I just believe that at the majority of skill levels the oracle's ability to kill worker lines in an instant is not fun to play against.
While you may not see an oracle dealing game ending damage very much at the pro level, at lower levels it still very much exists, and certainly frustrates people.
It is too punishing of a unit for the vast majority of players.
The aspect of the oracle that we should be focusing on in my opinion is not the worker harassment, but rather the utility provided through revelation and stasis wards(and envision in hots). Stasis ward in particular I believe is a really awesome spell, but it just isn't in the right spot yet. It is hardly ever used.
The few interactions from stasis wards that we have are memorable. Remember uThermal vs Showtime at Dreamhack Leipzig?
You can also engage with your army and cast the stasis wards while you are fighting. The wards don't have a very high attack priority so you can usually finish the spell before they get focused down.
(That is how I got this to work a few times)
I also think about stasis in Brood War. With mech coming back in lotv, we could possibly see tank clumps being stasis'd (Yes it does work differently in sc2).
My suggestion: Remove the oracle attack spell. Buff stasis ward build time.
Buff/nerf radius/hp/energy cost/etc to balance out the unit after this change has been made.
Possibly bring back envision.
I have a few reasons for suggesting this change.
Firstly, the removal of the attack will make it more noob friendly to play against. You aren't going to have an oracle flying into the mineral lines of casual/new players and completely ending the game. At the pro level where it doesn't do much direct damage anymore anyway, this will encourage greater use of revelation and stasis wards as there is more energy available.
Secondly, by buffing stasis ward, you will still be able to damage the economy, however it would not be as damaging because the workers don't die. I would see it working like a bit like the original entomb, but instead of having to kill the entombed mineral lines, you would just keep a couple of units in the mineral line to deny the stasis ward building. It will hopefully also become more prevelent in army fights. If this happens it will encourage interesting micro. Did you place it too close or too far from the army? Can your opponent focus it down? Do I need to split up my army more? etc etc.
Thirdly, while removing the oracle attack might have some issue on balance(eg. taking your third but getting denied by zerglings, early ravager all ins), the oracle should not be the unit that allows you to deal with these things. Buff other things (GATEWAY UNITS).
Conclusion: Ultimately what I am suggesting is to turn the oracle into a purely support air unit, by moving away from it's harassment aspect. The damage that oracles do against casual and lower level players makes this game not fun, and it should be looked at.
Let me know what you think about this below.
Do you agree? Do you disagree? How would you approach changing the oracle? Would you change it at all?
Come on. How well Protosses micro the Oracles (which easily makes the difference between 2 or 4 worker kills) while macroing is one of the most satisfying ways to watch top 5-10 Protosses differentiate themselves from lesser Protosses.. would be sad if that was removed
Imagine threatening mineral lines with stasis wards, it would prevent mining for a certain amount of time until the Stasis Ward is dealt with or it gets procced by a worker, just like widow mines are baited, could be a nice interaction that is not as harmful as an oracle or a widowmine itself, if you fail, you don't lose the workers, only the mining time. However, I feel widowmines would be too strong a harassment tool now in comparison, maybe you're starting off with the Oracle for now, I hope I get to see what's your opinion on widowmine drops, too.
I really like where you're going with your first suggestion: removing the attack spell. Also I think it's valid to keep it as a CC tool in combat, however, it would be clunky to be channeling everything mid-combat, maybe we could make it so that the oracle casts the ward on the ground and is able to move inmediately after without channeling. Hell, I'm only brainstorming here Plus the important thing is to make it more casual friendly, useful and fun for both parties.
On October 09 2016 14:35 SKN1995 wrote: Come on. How well Protosses micro the Oracles (which easily makes the difference between 2 or 4 worker kills) while macroing is one of the most satisfying ways to watch top 5-10 Protosses differentiate themselves from lesser Protosses.. would be sad if that was removed
Umm, no...It's a gimmick unit, plain and simple, all top Protoss players have crisp micro with Oracles, what's the differentiation?
Oracle
- Nerf primary attack drastically against light units but increase it's range by +1 or potentially even +2 to allow the Oracle to find sweet spots in the enemies defenses. It being so effective vs light units makes it imbalanced vs Marines early game and obviously imbalanced vs economy, pretty much 75% of the reason the unit is a gimmick unit in the first place with the other 25% being because it's abilities last far too long.
Currently an Oracle is countered by 1 Spore Crawler and rendered almost useless but if the Spore isn't there it's gg, change the relationship so that it can still be useful if prepared for, but not made useless, this is called "good unit design" compared to it's current incarnation, which is called "David Kim really likes things that go fast and kill workers".
- Reduce the cost of Stasis Ward to 50% it's current mana cost but reduce it's cool down and radius proportionally so it will be used as a constant ward dropper by the best multi task players but the ability itself won't be broken. Would be a fantastic ling run by defense.
- Change revelation so it lets you look through the eyes of one unit entirely (think Parasite from BW) permanently.
Not saying my ideas are the epitome of said "good unit design" but the Oracle needs to be changed most definitely.
On October 09 2016 14:35 SKN1995 wrote: Come on. How well Protosses micro the Oracles (which easily makes the difference between 2 or 4 worker kills) while macroing is one of the most satisfying ways to watch top 5-10 Protosses differentiate themselves from lesser Protosses.. would be sad if that was removed
Umm, no...It's a gimmick unit, plain and simple, all top Protoss players have crisp micro with Oracles, what's the differentiation?
Not while not fucking up macro, they don't. There's a clear significant difference between the best Protosses and lesser ones when it comes to this. Sure, some may control their Oracles flawlessly but fuck up macroing meanwhile whereas other Protosses are on point with their macro but kill only 2-3 workers in scenarios where they could have gotten 1-2 or even 3 more.
On October 09 2016 14:35 SKN1995 wrote: Come on. How well Protosses micro the Oracles (which easily makes the difference between 2 or 4 worker kills) while macroing is one of the most satisfying ways to watch top 5-10 Protosses differentiate themselves from lesser Protosses.. would be sad if that was removed
Umm, no...It's a gimmick unit, plain and simple, all top Protoss players have crisp micro with Oracles, what's the differentiation?
Oracle
- Nerf primary attack drastically against light units but increase it's range by +1 or potentially even +2 to allow the Oracle to find sweet spots in the enemies defenses. It being so effective vs light units makes it imbalanced vs Marines early game and obviously imbalanced vs economy, pretty much 75% of the reason the unit is a gimmick unit in the first place with the other 25% being because it's abilities last far too long.
Currently an Oracle is countered by 1 Spore Crawler and rendered almost useless but if the Spore isn't there it's gg, change the relationship so that it can still be useful if prepared for, but not made useless, this is called "good unit design" compared to it's current incarnation, which is called "David Kim really likes things that go fast and kill workers".
- Reduce the cost of Stasis Ward to 50% it's current mana cost but reduce it's cool down and radius proportionally so it will be used as a constant ward dropper by the best multi task players but the ability itself won't be broken. Would be a fantastic ling run by defense.
- Change revelation so it lets you look through the eyes of one unit entirely (think Parasite from BW) permanently.
Not saying my ideas are the epitome of said "good unit design" but the Oracle needs to be changed most definitely.
the attack change is an interesting idea, but the revelation change removes its ability to act as a detector, which is a bad idea imo
Blizzard said that their idea was to add variety in to protoss. I feel like removing oracle harass ability would discourage stargate openers and thus do the opposite what Blizzard is wanting to do.
I do agree that oracles can be game ending at lower levels though and changing that would definitely be a nice thing but I don't think this is the way to go about it,
On October 09 2016 14:35 SKN1995 wrote: Come on. How well Protosses micro the Oracles (which easily makes the difference between 2 or 4 worker kills) while macroing is one of the most satisfying ways to watch top 5-10 Protosses differentiate themselves from lesser Protosses.. would be sad if that was removed
Umm, no...It's a gimmick unit, plain and simple, all top Protoss players have crisp micro with Oracles, what's the differentiation?
Oracle
- Nerf primary attack drastically against light units but increase it's range by +1 or potentially even +2 to allow the Oracle to find sweet spots in the enemies defenses. It being so effective vs light units makes it imbalanced vs Marines early game and obviously imbalanced vs economy, pretty much 75% of the reason the unit is a gimmick unit in the first place with the other 25% being because it's abilities last far too long.
Currently an Oracle is countered by 1 Spore Crawler and rendered almost useless but if the Spore isn't there it's gg, change the relationship so that it can still be useful if prepared for, but not made useless, this is called "good unit design" compared to it's current incarnation, which is called "David Kim really likes things that go fast and kill workers".
- Reduce the cost of Stasis Ward to 50% it's current mana cost but reduce it's cool down and radius proportionally so it will be used as a constant ward dropper by the best multi task players but the ability itself won't be broken. Would be a fantastic ling run by defense.
- Change revelation so it lets you look through the eyes of one unit entirely (think Parasite from BW) permanently.
Not saying my ideas are the epitome of said "good unit design" but the Oracle needs to be changed most definitely.
the attack change is an interesting idea, but the revelation change removes its ability to act as a detector, which is a bad idea imo
I think allowing the Oracle to be a detector itself wouldn't be too bad, with the increased range it should slightly lessen the danger it would have to put itself in to detect things. Having to build a robo for Observers would definitely be a massive hindrance to SG play in general so I agree that the Oracle needs to detect.
Appreciate the +1 on the other idea though, I've thought that about the Oracle for a long time, the extra range and less burst would make it much easier to micro and keep it alive while simultaneously ending the "terrible terrible dmg" effect it has.
On October 09 2016 16:34 Parcelleus wrote: There are many things 'not fun to play against', picking on the 'Oracle' just shows your bias. Yawn thread.
I intend to write many threads over the next couple of weeks. This includes widow mine, lurker, mcore, adepts etc. I hope my bias(and we are all biased) as a protoss player isn't overwhelming and that we can at least have a good discussion.
On October 09 2016 13:59 mGGrinehart wrote: Conclusion: Ultimately what I am suggesting is to turn the oracle into a purely support air unit, by moving away from it's harassment aspect. The damage that oracles do against casual and lower level players makes this game not fun, and it should be looked at.
Let me know what you think about this below.
Great idea!
I think the most reasonable change to Stasis Ward would be to make it a spell on a low cooldown, with low duration (say 5-10 seconds), low mana cost and a unit limit or smaller radius. This way it actually would require some skill to chain it on workers in a mineral line or on parts of the enemy's army.
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On a sidenote, if this is going to be a series think about changing the titles to a common format (like "Probe's thoughts: ...").
On October 09 2016 14:35 SKN1995 wrote: Come on. How well Protosses micro the Oracles (which easily makes the difference between 2 or 4 worker kills) while macroing is one of the most satisfying ways to watch top 5-10 Protosses differentiate themselves from lesser Protosses.. would be sad if that was removed
Yeah I can understand this. But how about giving the pro players the ability to distinguish themselves through the use of stasis, which won't have such a crushing impact on the casual/new players, and is also relevant for the entire game, not just the early game.
On October 09 2016 14:35 SKN1995 wrote: Come on. How well Protosses micro the Oracles (which easily makes the difference between 2 or 4 worker kills) while macroing is one of the most satisfying ways to watch top 5-10 Protosses differentiate themselves from lesser Protosses.. would be sad if that was removed
[snip]
Currently an Oracle is countered by 1 Spore Crawler and rendered almost useless but if the Spore isn't there it's gg, change the relationship so that it can still be useful if prepared for, but not made useless, this is called "good unit design" compared to it's current incarnation, which is called "David Kim really likes things that go fast and kill workers".
[snip]
Fun fact, if they make more than one oracle, suddenly spores don't matter anymore.
Played a game recently where the toss made 1 oracle, then pooled 3 more. So 4 showed up. Killed all my spores, all my queens, and all by 16 of my drones.
Obviously there was an investment there - but same idea. Even if you're prepared, they can still find ways to fuck your shit up.
I don't know if oracles are fair, fun to play or whatever but all I know is that they are extremely limiting to the variety of buildorders (especially against terran) so a change to them would be welcome.
The only change Oracle needs is a gigantic nerf on relevations durations. It is by far the most broken ability in the game at the moment. It has a huge area, it reveals invisible units as well and it stays for 1 MINUTE, 1 fucking MINUTE! 1 minute is almost a swarm hosts attack frequency, thats how you know that a unit will remain always useless because one minute is just way too long time for a lotv game. And there is no counter-play to revelation, you just have to accept the fact that protoss will see your all army for the rest of the game. Its duration should be like 15 seconds in a fair game to be honest.
The oracle is a gimmicky and stupid unit. It kills workers and marines so insanely fast, while the revelation is probably the most broken spell in the game (considering range and duration, and the fact it allows no counterplay whatsoever).
The unit would be much more interesting if it was able to build forcefields on minerals the way it was supposed to in the hots beta. Give the forcefield 50 hps, make the oracle have to channel for 2 seconds on top of said minerals to cast the spell so static D can prevent it, and remove the idiotic attack spell. And make revelation only detect unit instead of giving vision too. Or make them only a dot on the minimap like sensor towers so protoss can't know if it's a marine or a medivac.
man i agree about oracles being too devastating but i don't agree with the stasis ward buff as a solution... if it were suddenly easy and viable to drop mass stasis and nullify half your opponents army then how is that fun to play against either? low level players won't have the micro to focus oracles or dodge stasis wards. a stronger stasis ward woud basically be another widow mine or disruptor mechanic except your units die a few seconds later instead of instantly
also disagree with the people saying revelation has no counterplay... if all you do is sit at your third and fourth base with your whole army and then do a big push then yeah revelation screws you, but if you're active on the map you can definitely use revelation to fake aggression by making it look like youre attacking, which taxes your opponents APM and affects his decision making. it could probably be slightly nerfed in fairness, but non protoss underestimate the amount of attention and micro it takes just to fly your oracle around and land revelations constantly. its not automatic, it takes control
Ridiculous. Widow mines oneshot oracles and 8 range queens + a spore defend a mineral line against it. How is that not noob friendly? In PvP it takes a bit more experience, but putting 3 stalkers into your mineral line is not that hard either.
It just makes stargate openers unviable, nothing more. If you think that people are not supposed to react to the oracle AT ALL and doing one single action (getting stalkers/marines/widow mines or putting down the spore) or two when you have a natural is too much to ask for, in a dynamic game where information is important, scouting and interaction makes for a fun game, you are a horrible game designer.
I used to think they were a great addition to the game when first released. But if memory serves me correct the "agility" buff they got shortly afterwards is way to strong and should be reverted.
A little off topic but also when i think about it, shouldn't the Nexus buff be removed now that Marauders have been Nerfed ?
Unlike my compatriot that I'm commonly mistaken for I'm in Diamond and Zerg. Also unlike Probe, I don't have a particular grievance with the oracle itself. I do have one with the style of gameplay it represents. I left Starcraft 2 near the end of WoL when I couldn't stomach another day of blord infestor, and came back in August. Thanks to the practice and work in WoL I found it very easy to just outmacro opponents regardless of what unit they made until I reached the diamond 2 range and opponents started executing pro level builds. Reaching this has made me painfully awaken to the kind of game Starcraft 2 (still) is and has affected my motivation to continue advancing.
Widow mines. If you had told me Terran, already the best offensive race, was going to get ranged & reusable banelings in WoL I would have balked. If I mis-micro or don't watch my army at a critical and unpredictable second, I can lose a game. I did lose a game two days ago when a single widow mine managed to kill the majority of my banelings and there was absolutely fuck all I could have done about it except not engage because of the fear that a widow mine may exist.
Oracles. I don't have the problem of them evaporating mineral lines currently since I'm favoring ling bane hydra lurker, and I'll have lots of queens and hydras to fend them off. I'm actually quite pleased when my opponent opens stargate since it puts me in a good position to be active on the map and rush to a lurker den. But that potential is there. It's always there that I could mis-micro and in an instant get so far behind that it becomes my opponent's game to lose and all he has to do is make minor mistakes to win.
16 Marine drop timings with or without widow mines/hellbats. Again with the theme - if I don't scout correctly and respond correctly I lose. 5 minutes gone. I need to know on all maps where to place my overlords around my third, and I need to dedicate my time spreading creep. If marines are allowed to get to a base before my entire queen/ling army then that's the game. They do significant economic damage while expanding their economy behind it and they themselves are only vulnerable to an all in. Defend, or lose.
All these things create a very boring game from my perspective. ZvT is extremely stale and I know what my opponent is going to do before the match starts. I have faith in some of the upcoming balance changes, especially to liberators which may once again make mutas a viable unit on all maps instead of just Dasan. But still, there will be fundamental issues with the game design where a single mistake very early on can cost you the game completely.
That isn't very compelling or enjoyable. I've never lost a rocket league match because of a single error.
I can see why people would compare widow mines potential to burrowed banelings but I think there is enough evidence to show that burrowed banelings are barely above gimmick tier. Using them effectively is extremely rare and it costs more time and relies on more chance than comparable units for other races.
Many people are intensely defensive about the existing status quo. I think LSN in a recent thread correctly identified how people are trapped within the system and don't want to let go of the skill they have for the chance of a better game. As time has gone on (and I have returned to find) people have left rather than listen to the same crappy arguments in defense of the punishing core gameplay of SC2, and left the shadow of what was once a bustling community to be the kings of a dung hill.
Truth be told I don't think Blizzard will recognize and change the core gameplay mechanics that have not served the game for six years running. People will continue to leave and over the next 1-2 years tournaments will shrink further, more pros will leave for more lucrative games, and still there will be people that say "This is fine".
But Blizzard has an opportunity today, tomorrow, and every day after. SC2s future isn't written in stone. The oracle could become a very technical, skill rewarding spellcasting unit that (like the sentry) is considered a solid unit that has uses throughout the game and rewards better players. Right now, like many other things I've brought up, they rely on punishing momentary lapses of opponents and are either easily dealt with or end the game.
On October 09 2016 21:27 brickrd wrote: also disagree with the people saying revelation has no counterplay... if all you do is sit at your third and fourth base with your whole army and then do a big push then yeah revelation screws you, but if you're active on the map you can definitely use revelation to fake aggression by making it look like youre attacking, which taxes your opponents APM and affects his decision making. it could probably be slightly nerfed in fairness, but non protoss underestimate the amount of attention and micro it takes just to fly your oracle around and land revelations constantly. its not automatic, it takes control
I am sorry but that is not a real counterplay, that is not even a "play". Also using revelation takes minimum effort, you need to use it every 1 minute, and it is pretty easy to execute. Even if you manage to lose your oracle somehow, you can make a new one in that 1 minute anyway.
I think OP is trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
At professional level, ppl can deal with oracles so they aren't that common. In ladder, protosses are absolutely stomped anyways, so that indicates protoss should be made easier if anything. Also the principle and difficulty of executing of, say, proxy oracle in PvT is similar to proxy mine drop in TvP, and both can be dealt with if reacted accordingly while being able to deal game ending damage if not. I'd also say that at lower levels standard builds are those which deal with common attacks best, so ppl tend to choose openers that naturally are able to deal with pretty much anything done early game.
On October 09 2016 22:10 travis wrote: Maybe just learn to play?
(I'm not even trying to troll here...)
Yeah definitely, and people who play this game all the time don't run into this problem because they know how to deal with it and as they go up the leagues they have the multitasking. But, that doesn't mean we can't try to make the design of the unit better. Try to help casuals and lower levels players while providing the pros with another tool at their disposal to show their skill. Because even currently at the top level oracles do very little damage wise. And then stasis is lacking. We just see revelation for days.
I don't want to make it that you don't have to learn how to play the game. But instead redirect it to other areas of the game.
On October 09 2016 18:53 Charoisaur wrote: I don't know if oracles are fair, fun to play or whatever but all I know is that they are extremely limiting to the variety of buildorders (especially against terran) so a change to them would be welcome.
This is by far the biggest problem with the unit but it gets brushed aside because people is used to terran being the race with no variety and think that is how it should be (it isnt).
Back in HotS mech players were trying todo make mech work in TvP, so got to gether and started working on ways and creating builds todo make mech playa work, EJK, Zizlha and HTOmario among others made guides about that, however the number 1 problem forma early game builds was always the same: The oracle.
If a build didn't had anti oracle meassures it wasn't viable, you needed to have specific responses already in order or it was GG, comparing it to WM like some people do shows this, yes you need detection to 100% stop a WM drop, bit with good response time you can bait the WM shot with a single por worker or even kill the WM (and sometimes even the medivac) with PO, with an oracle you either have the stuff and in place or you die no matter how you react. At this point it becomes a unit that depends on build order and not on skill for the defending side, and thats awful design.
Also, you should be able to activate Stasis Ward at will, like it was in the beta, it does add an atention factor that players need to adress. Stats can be changed, so that it doesn't freeze half an army, or so that you can have a reaction time to move away, like widow mines do, when they trigger (before the upgrade).
I have a buddy who litterally just started playing couple weeks ago (plays against silver/gold league level). And he loses most his PvPs to a oracle getting rushed out. It can be quite cancerious at low levels. If he forgets to have a couple pylons behind mineral line and get fast moma core its GG. Plus even when he remembers he doesn't have the reaction time to overcharge most of the time.
It's not that Oracles are hard to deal with, a single turret/spore/pylon charge is fine. It's that at low levels players forget they have to do this in case of oracle. And imo it's stupid that a single unit can end the game 5 minutes in (without it being an allin or anything), because the other guy forgets to make a turret over his mineral line. (even DTs aren't that bad, because obsrever/scan/overseer is something everyone tends to have).
this is just such a selfish, typical protoss post... hey oracles are kinda bad so just remove all the stuff thats useless anyway and give it some big buff at its strong points. And of course this is good for low league balance aswell!
100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection.
Wow, 75% of this thread is just full of buried head in the sand, "The Lolracle is okay learn to play" and the other 25% is actual suggestions and ideas.
The idea is to make the unit less game ending for the noobs and more skill cap/less gimmick for the pros, if your going to tell me that the Oracle isn't a gimmick unit I humbly ask for an explanation, because at this point it..
- Forces blind anti air at times because the mere threat of it can be game ending - If unprepared it's game ending, you can't lose 10+ workers and then win barring massive throws from the Protoss - It's abilities all last for far too long - Snowball unit, if you take losses the enemy can simply keep building Oracles and there is little you can do - If you make 1 anti air structure at the right time the Oracle flies around picking off 1 or 2 workers and becomes kind of dead weight
My idea is..
- Forces anti - air but the initial, "oh no I didnt scout it" isn't auto gg in worker losses - Increased range enables it to continuously harass despite anti - air keeps it safe distance to detect - Permanent detection eliminates the need for Revelation in it's current form - Won't snow ball, it won't be good vs. light units and structures, you'll have to micro to shave off workers reliably, but as long as you micro the unit will never die to Spores/Turrets - Won't be so imbalanced vs. Terran early game - More range = more micro opportunity = the Pros will benefit
On October 09 2016 22:10 travis wrote: Maybe just learn to play?
(I'm not even trying to troll here...)
Bullshit, yes you are, contribute something substantial or go to another thread, everyone knows how to play against the Oracle, that doesn't mean that it's not a poorly designed gimmick unit. That's why the title of the thread is, "Changing the Oracle" and not "Nerf the Oracle" or "The Oracle is impossible to play against".
Problem: My main issue with oracles is that they can end games so easily at casual/lower levels. At the pro level, we hardly ever see an oracle just straight up end the game, and this is because the higher level players have the multitasking and experience to deal with it.
...
I strongly disagree with this statement, for several reasons :
1 - you're a GM assuming things about lower league players troubles, and you miss the target. Yes It will happen that an oracle can win a game at 3'30 if the opponent hasn't prepared for a proxy oracle in his build, but same can be said for almost every unit : you don't see the 2 mines dropping in your probe line? you're dead. You forgot to build that turret? DT warp in kill you and so on. IN lower leagues people die from bad macro and mistakes, that's normal, Changing a unit just for this is irrelevant.
2 - An oracle winning a game doesn't happen that often because players are in the same league and the oracle is often late and microed badly. I say that in lower leagues people trying to go for aggressive oracle build get as much losses than wins, simply because they're as bad as their opponent when it comes to macro and micro.
3-What will we do once oracle is nerfed? nerf 12 pool? nerf widow mines? nerf reapers? nerf banelings? nerf 1 base roach aravager? cause people do lose games from this shit too in lower leagues. dealing with early aggression is part of the learning path of the game, we've all been there we all took these loss and we learnt from them.
Last, oracle is a fine unit, deadly if not anticipated, but almost harmless when your build and execution is good enough, plus as you pointed out reveal and stasis ward are very important spells that bring alot to the game. That's the definition of a good unit in my book.
If anything, reduce the length of the reveal ability that's too damn long (yes, I play terran and I'm biased )
On October 10 2016 01:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: 100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection.
"such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make..
On October 10 2016 01:56 Beelzebub1 wrote: Wow, 75% of this thread is just full of buried head in the sand, "The Lolracle is okay learn to play" and the other 25% is actual suggestions and ideas.
it s better than having your head burried in your ass...
On October 10 2016 01:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: 100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection.
"such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make..
On October 10 2016 00:39 alpenrahm wrote: this is just such a selfish, typical protoss post... hey oracles are kinda bad so just remove all the stuff thats useless anyway and give it some big buff at its strong points. And of course this is good for low league balance aswell!
You know, it is possible to disagree with someone without also insulting them
I'm not sure I buy the whole low skill level argument, but it would make the more unit more interesting to play and watch if you removed the beam and buffed stasis ward to increase its usage. I don't think many people can argue with the fact that one of the more interesting mechanics in RTS games is the "bait/trap" design, it has that element of rewarding the player who correctly predicts an angle of attack and preparing for it ahead of time and also providing the suspense of watching it unfold from a spectator POV.
Both Terran (widow mines) and Zerg (banelings) have strong options in this regard, but stasis ward is very rarely utilized (and on a side note I think it is absolutely ridiculous, from a game design/spectator POV, that widow mines can be so effectively used as a worker harassment tool by simply burrowing them in plain view of the opponent).
Buffing Stasis Ward too much in terms of cast time could be an issue balance-wise as it was essentially a high-tier spell in BW. I would very much like to see it changed to affect air units as a mass air deterrent is something Protoss sorely lacks. Perhaps it can be changed so that it acts as the old Entomb did, but instead of freezing mineral patches it freezes units. That way there is still counterplay involved, and opens up some interesting tactical play as well (i.e. hitting another location when their army is freeing their "entombed" workers). For balance, I think one option could be to add a fleet beacon upgrade which increases the range/cast time of stasis ward to open up its usage late-game, while keeping it a harassment and trap mechanic in the mid-game.
I think changing revelation to a BW-style parasite is also more interesting from a game design/spectator POV, but I can't really think of any interesting way of adding detection to the Oracle.
On October 10 2016 01:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: 100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection.
"such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make..
the stasis ward ability is vastly underused. If the cost was adjusted yeah I'd definitely build some. And no need to be a sarcastic ass.
On October 10 2016 01:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: 100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection.
"such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make..
On October 10 2016 00:39 alpenrahm wrote: this is just such a selfish, typical protoss post... hey oracles are kinda bad so just remove all the stuff thats useless anyway and give it some big buff at its strong points. And of course this is good for low league balance aswell!
You know, it is possible to disagree with someone without also insulting them
On October 10 2016 01:56 Beelzebub1 wrote: Wow, 75% of this thread is just full of buried head in the sand, "The Lolracle is okay learn to play" and the other 25% is actual suggestions and ideas.
it s better than having your head burried in your ass...
Yet again more personal insult trading, do you guys have anything of any substance to contribute to the discussion of Changing the Oracle or is it just shit on whoever's opinion you disagree with?
Hardly an insult to say your head is buried in the sand if you don't think the Oracle is gimmicky, I would wager that your in the relative minority.
Even if you don't agree that it's a straight up gimmick, I can agree to disagree on that, but don't you at least agree that the potential of the Oracle is not being reached?
I don't agree with this thread. I think the Oracle is a very nice unit, that has a well designed role, and right now it fits well in the game.
You never see a pro-game where one of the players just straight up loses to oracles in the mineral lines, usually the P gets 1-2 oracles and uses them to do light harass early on (since they are always defended with queens, turrets, etc.) and then they have good values in the rest of the game with stasis and revelation. They are not good in straight up fights and they are not so difficult to defend when harassing. They are hard to use while maintaining top level macro and control of the army, so they reward the good players who are able to multitask. They have a nice role in the late game to tag enemy armies, and they are almost necessary to play vs lukers.
Yes, you will occasionally have the one game where you loose to proxy stargate beause you loose 10 scv/drones very early, just like you have the occasional game when you loose to early pools, proxy factories, etc. Every race has cheese, and that's good, it keeps players from being too greedy.
Finally, I truly don't understand what "gimmicky" means. It seems all protoss discussions resolve to saying: this or that is gimmicky. Usually sg opening with 1-2 oracles are used to transition to mid game while doing some harass damage and keep an eye on the opponent.
Sometimes I loose because I don't scout the 2xmedivac drop and I loose all my probes in a matter of seconds.. do I think that marines should be nerfed? no, obviously...
p.s you CAN scout for proxies.. I always scout with the probe that builds the first pylon, because I want to check the most used spot to proxy factories / rax (I lost too many times to proxy reapers, or proxy factory -> cyclones). Yes, you loose a bit of mining time, but do you really think it matters when you are not master/gm ?
It's an interesting idea to shift the utility of Oracles away from Pulsar Beam and towards Stasis Ward. The unit was originally designed as a "non-lethal" harasser after all, at least before they caved into community pressure and gave it Pulsar Beam instead.
Then again, stasis is an incredibly strong crowd control state, and seeing it too often could lead to similar, likely even bigger problems than what we've seen out of other crowd control spells like Force Field and Time Warp. That's probably the reason reason why stasis in Brood War was locked so high up in the tech tree, requiring investment in two tech paths, a tech building, and research.
A buff to Stasis Ward to be useful in harassment would need other changes to the spell as well so that it doesn't become as troublesome as the other crowd control spells were over the years in SC2.
I don't think the unit is in an absolute, desperate need for a redesign like that at the moment though. I think it's just a few tweaks away from being in better shape for the game. A redesign that works would be nice, but it'll take a lot more thought and iteration to get there.
Make stasis ward expire, its stupid to have endless "bombs" on the field. Good toss players are already placing stasis wards. Or make it visible before it goes off, just like mines.
On October 23 2016 19:55 NutriaKaiN wrote: yes whining about the oracle where widow mines and banelings can kill instant 12 workers, where the oracle takes 10 seconds for that. nice logic
Banelings and mines can be micro'd against even if you didn't scout them incoming. With good reactions a mine drop kills 2 workers, bane drop sometimes less with good splits/worker micro.
An oracle however is instant game over if no turret/pylon/queens is there. I have ended ladder games as toss just by sending it in there/shift clicking its beam. Which is stupid.
I fear that at pro level, the oracle's attack problem comes more from the protoss ability to mass them more easely than the terran will mass the responding marines. you often see a first oracle avoiding damage and waiting it's mate(s) to destroy everything. But your change is a great answer to that too.
I also fear that you might underestimate the revelation's impact on the game. Especially in late game where it can easely grant you a permanent. vision of your opponent's moves.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/40BLUVe.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cd5EcfqUAAAtmbX.jpg:large)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/nbaker/BisuFlash/BF7.jpg)
Plus the important thing is to make it more casual friendly, useful and fun for both parties.
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