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This is a result of players of all kinds, levels and regions don't enjoy playing the game as much as they could above everyting else.
TL was chosen as the platform to provide and discuss feedback for blizzard next to the korean pro scene.
The feedback that has been provided by these two instances, while always being quite ambivalent, hasn't been doing well for SC2 at all.
For TL community it was always more important to argue about racial balance in detail rather than helping to improve the basics of the game which make it unjoyable.
People who had nothing else in mind than getting an advantage for their own race in the balance discussions are to blame. There were plenty of them and people who are involved with SC2 professionally or semi-pros took their part in it. Allowing "Welcome to ZParcraft" by TheDWF to happen and take place is just one of the most prominent examples (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/460550-welcome-to-zparcraft-ii).
We experienced Korean pro feedback that was majorly biased depending on who you ask and which race the individual plays when it was not combined feedback by teammanagers.
Blizzard listened to this and therefore failed to shift SC2 into a fun game.
Giving an example:
The results were things like reduction of widow mine radius and an increase afterwards. But everyone failed to see that no matter of the radius of the widow mine it is just another unit that kills the fun of SC2 big time. It's mechanic is being experienced quite unfair for either side as hitting a huge chunk of banelings continually ends game at once and on the other hand they can render completely useless when just hitting one or two zerglings. Either way they feel punishing. Additionally defending against and clearing mines takes alot more effort than executing them.
Instead of discussing the radius of mines SC2 needed a discussion about if SC2 needs more of these mechanics which there already exist quite a few or not.
While there is a micro potential of mines, in opposite to popular believe even in progames the outcome of mines is mostly subject to randomness. It depends mostly on if the unit a mine focuses on is next to other units or not. As SC2 is a fast paced game with narrow timing windows that punishes to miss these timings and therefore players don't have unlimited time to position and micro everyting perfectly the randomness is happening even after the micro potential: Such as if zergs position units in front to take the mine hits and terran uses burrow + targeting micro and kills the first incoming units off with bio, then the damage mines will do after all that is still mainly determined by chance and randomness.
That is one example out of many punishing and frustration creating game mechanics. SC2 needs less of these mechanics instead of more to make it a fun game.
Discussions should have shifted to discuss these mechanics intrinsic value for SC2 instead of from a strict balance perspective.
Some may argue that HOTS TvZ was most fun to play and watch. The truth is SC2 was already then steering towards a dead end but the hope and faith in LOTV was keeping it alive and people involved motivated. Now as LOTV has failed to deliver that faith has declined to the minimum level ever.
And it could predictably not deliver. The issue never was if the radius of the mine is larger or smaller but the mechanic of the mine itself, the unit itself (to stick to the mine example). But blizzard listened to this kind of feedback and got stuck on that kind of game modification inspired by both the korean pro feedback and TL discussions. And to be fair they as well wanted it that way and their design not to be questioned to a certain degree.
That has obviously failed all along the line and one cannot come to any other result when analysing the current happenings which are a the major redesign of SC2 and the probable retirement of the korean SC2 scene. SC2 needs a check of all basic mechanics and unit interactions instead of minor balance adjustments and I was advocating that since the beginning of HOTS in discussions here at TL and being laughed at.
When it comes to the point where you introduce e.g. nexus/pylon cannon to the game you (blizzard) should evaluate better if the mechanic is required at all and if and in which ways it can be detrimental to the game. Instead of just implementing it in an environment of buffs over nerfs you should rather think about how to tone down things that might require Protoss to own and use a mechanic such as the pylon/nexus cannon.
As all the pro and wannabe pro feedback has completely failed to make SC2 any better it is now time to make a change.
Like a child who is completely inexperienced but can very well decide through the feeling of the gut if a thing is right or wrong so can noobs in SC2 see things that go wrong which pros have become blind for already as they see them as a necessary evil to play SC2 at all and forget about them (organisational blindness, professional tunnel vision). But they are not. Things can be changed and SC2 can be good at the same time for noobs and for pros. It doesn't contradict each other at all as most of you at TL asserted all too often. You (Blizzard) cannot just and only listen to the guys who do nothing else than day in day out focus on playing the game competitively. Why would you expect them to think outside the box? They hardly can. Doing so would require them to let go some of their current metagame skill and start thinking in alternatives that would be detrimental to their current level of play. But thinking outside the box would have been required to improve SC2. It hasn't taken place and has even been denied by popular demand here in these TL forums.
Stop. listening. to. them.
It is now time for game designers to take over. We don't need more useless pro feedback that is so narrowed down on certain meta situations that it loses the sight of the whole.
The pros will move on at a certain point, the casters obviously do too, the game is here to stay tho and the people who are enjoying to play a good RTS without ambitions in pro-gaming like myself as well.
Let someone take over who can develop a vision for the game in how the different races and their strengthes and weaknesses should interact and build the design on that.
Reverse and stop band-aid fixes like muta regeneration or nexus/pylon cannon. If mutas are weak focus on what makes them appear weak and tone that down. Giving them regeneration just causes additional problems which ask for additional band-aid fixes. SC2 has gone a long way in wrong decisionmaking to where it is now exactly according to this example.
Create solid foundations:
That cannot be e.g. that Zerg is only the defensive race with mostly melee units while terran being the offensive race with ranged units and I wont go in detail here why that is. You didn't fix that by giving the ravager to zerg but made it worse.
That cannot be to give the most offensive race the best defensive macro mechanic which is mules that allow attacks only to do limited damage. This is clearly a mechanic that must belong to a defensive race to make up for their counterparts aggressive potential.
SC2 never failed through balance but through design. Therefore SC2 needs now game design with clear visions and goals to achieve that make natural sense (as the two examples above of solid foundations).
If you achieve to get these basics right SC2 will then get another chance to re-establish itself at the player base and based on that develop a healthy and natural pro scene. It can get back in korea if the game feels worthy to play and watch and not only a mechanics check 90% with builds narrowed so much by the reigning meta that small deviations put you all-in or make you lose instantly. This is neither fun nor rewarding for both pros nor for noobs.
GL with that!
Adding some references so this can be better classified:
- Headadministrator SCCL 2005/6.
- Headadministrator BWCL 2002 - 2005.
- Extensive map creation in WC2 and Broodwar.
- Player since 1996.
- Still master or high master league capable as proven two seasons ago but I feel very few fun when doing so. :p
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Basically it narrows down it is design non balance issue. This has been discussed hundreds of times and Blizzard clearly stated that they do not intended to target design at all unless it is extremely necessary (even though they are doing some now but not enough. My main issue is with the current resource system).
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Believe it or not but SC2 most likely will not get "another chance", that ship has sailed with LotV release. The core game is six years old, there's no upcoming expansion underway, the gaming audiences had plenty of opportunities to experience the nature of the game and if they didn't like it back then they probably won't even try it after a (not gonna happen) significant re-work (for example other economy models). The core audience will kinda stay the same with a few new people popping up here and there, but that's it, I'm afraid there won't be that huge new influx of players/viewers you're hoping for.
I don't want to sound super pessimistic here, but you got to sort of realistic, it's not a new game Blizzard can hope to gain huge revenue from promoting anymore.
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You generalize quite a bit when you say "TeamLiquid has this or that opinion/viewport/agenda/etc".
There is many different people on TL and many different voices. There are certainly some members to which your description applies, but I dont see myself in your words at all.
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TLDR, i think blizzard have had their hands tied behind their back with this game from KR for a long time. Noones been allowed to say anything but Blizzard are serious shit now, they dont need anyone to prop up or develop an infrastructure for them.
I think when kespa or the KR scene falls, the secret pulling of strings behind the scenes which to me are all too apparent, the brand 'starcraft' in general will improve.
Come on, noones really ever said it but starcrafts whole design and structure has been directed by anyone but blizzard themselves, th KR scene who adopted this game as their own and televised it i think struck a deal a long time ago to keep things as they wanted it.
You could see blizzard wouldnt entertain any ideas when people started to try to take matters into their own hands when we could clearly see HOTS was basically WOL with a few extra units just delaying the inevitable stalemate game play we came to see 2 yrs earlier. It made no sense to me why blizzard wouldnt just try to implement some of the ideas the community had with some balance changes, economy and general balance. It just didnt happen!
The final straw for me was this year when multiple times the community and pros alike would suggest something what seems reasonable to fix an issue and then blizzard would seem to address something entirely different. Im going to bet that blizz employees are all under an extreme NDA NOT to mention any ties they have with organisations which have built a brand using their game so 'changes' are strictly not allowed in the interest of players training regimes.
Recently we have seen the KR scene taken away from foreign competition. I think this was the first steps of blizzard getting control of their property back, bleed them out so to speak of resources . . cash!
Just look at the fast and rapid changes they apply to all their other games, communitys cry, they change things quickly! With SC2, nope! Not going to happen! Why? Why not just try?
When the crash for the SC2 scene is complete you can expect to see this game take some massive shifts, become free to play and all those millions of ideas may become dlc in themselves to make the game interesting for everyone whilst keeping the GM league and competitive nature fully in tact. Come on, im not having it a company like this would bury their own flagship game and community. They have to be following some kind of 3rd party ruling.
I think after this blizzcon we are going to see some massive overhaul. Lets just see but i think the future of sc2 is going to get a hell of a lot brighter
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I agree creager but I was mainly aiming towards korea with that. I believe it is possible for SC2 in Korea to live up again if the game gets right even after a shutdown of current highest tier teams and leagues. The foundation of broodwar is just big enough so that people will take notice of major changes and when the game gets in fact less frustrating and punishing to play.
On October 03 2016 00:32 RoomOfMush wrote:
You generalize quite a bit when you say "TeamLiquid has this or that opinion/viewport/agenda/etc".
There is many different people on TL and many different voices. There are certainly some members to which your description applies, but I dont see myself in your words at all.
I concluded that with the ambivalent feedback at the top of the text. Of course there are different voices but only few voices were listened to. And most pro feedback was completely stuck in thinking inside the box unfortunately.
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You discuss problems which are solely the fault of the design team and then request they stop listening to pros and that will help them make better decisions.
Ok.
Roughly speaking, pros just want the game to be challenging yet fair for all three races and this is in line with the Design team's desires for Starcraft.
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For TL community it was always more important to argue about racial balance in detail rather than helping to improve the basics of the game which make it enjoyable.
Honestly over the past 6 years i saw so many quality design discussions on this forum. (Lalush, Hider, Starbow guys and other) These guys challenged my own viewpoints countless times.
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On October 03 2016 00:36 BEARDiaguz wrote:
You discuss problems which are solely the fault of the design team and then request they stop listening to pros and that will help them make better decisions.
Ok.
Roughly speaking, pros just want the game to be challenging yet fair for all three races and this is in line with the Design team's desires for Starcraft.
You don't design stuff "roughly speaking", though. Saying pro players and Blizzard have roughly the same desires for StarCraft isn't very telling, because "the game should be challenging yet fair" is a very, very broad goal that everyone can agree on.
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On October 03 2016 00:36 BEARDiaguz wrote:
You discuss problems which are solely the fault of the design team and then request they stop listening to pros and that will help them make better decisions.
Ok.
Roughly speaking, pros just want the game to be challenging yet fair for all three races and this is in line with the Design team's desires for Starcraft.
All that pro-feedback and feedback from TL hasn't lead the game into a better position.
It even hindered blizzard to fix the fundamentals of the game but instead put focus on minimal changes such as "nerf bunker build time".
Therefore in my eyes it was at the first place more or less useless. I do not deny that if the fundamentals get right then pro feedback becomes important again. But they as a whole have failed to put the focus on the most important issues, which are matter of design and not balance. They stayed in the box blizzard gave them, so to speak. Therefore nothing has changed for the better and the game carries still the same fundamental problems as in the beginning.
But it is not on pros to give fundamental design feedback and suggestions. As I described they are the wrong persons to ask. Therefore I ask blizzard to stop asking them.
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Every single thing HotS and LotV introduced was unnecessary (when not straight harmful for the game) and now we're fighting desperately to try to make things that should never have existed / been needed in the first place be fair and work (oracles, adepts, tempests, disruptors, mothership core : all unnecessary or evidence of unsound design ; swarm host : unnecessary, viper : shouldn't have been needed ; liberator, mines : wouldn't have been needed had the tank been solid...). And I fear this is never going to be the case, or it will be the case someday, but when the playerbase will be narrowed down to 3 players. I knew things were going to turn out poorly since they decided every expansion should be a revolution. So much could have been done with WoL set of units... Close your eyes and imagine every sensible change that has been made since (warpgate change, +4 range on phoenix, the WoL -> HotS ultra buff... / all the multiplayer changes with visible MMR, separate MMR...) had been done when we transitioned from WoL to HotS. We wouldn't be playing the #100 esports right now.
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I still think Queen range 3-5 was a huge mistake and Photon Overcharge went further in the wrong direction. Warpgate was the first problematic design because it's strictly better than Gateways and it eliminates defenders advantage. Gateway units were weaker to compensate which meant that Protoss couldn't move out on the map to pressure the opponent without committing so they either have to turtle or all-in. Queen range and Photon Overcharge changed the other match-ups to be like this too and these are the worst aspects of the game in my eyes so I wish it could be revisited. It doesn't look it will get any better though so I've just accepted the reality and for the most part moved on from the game now.
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I think you overestimate how much Pros get to contribute to the general design of Starcraft 2. In the betas for HotS and LotV we got to contribute to design decisions quite a bit (the removal of the warhound and where Blizzard ended up on macro mechanics spring to mind, both fine enough decisions) but aside from that ours aren't the ideas that get implemented. Our job is to try really hard to win games and then tell David Kim what's winning a bit too much. I imagine a lot of what you consider a design flaw is really just something irritating you can overcome through practice and determination, which is kinda the whole point of Starcraft 2.
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On October 03 2016 00:54 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Every single thing HotS and LotV introduced was unnecessary (when not straight harmful for the game) and now we're fighting desperately to try to make things that should never have existed / been needed in the first place be fair and work (oracles, adepts, tempests, disruptors : all unnecessary ; swarm host : unnecessary, viper : shouldn't have been needed ; liberator : shouldn't have been needed had the tank been solid...). And I fear this is never going to be the case, or it will be the case someday, but when the playerbase will be narrowed down to 3 players. I knew things were going to turn out poorly since they decided every expansion should be a revolution. So much could have been done with WoL set of units... Close your eyes and imagine every sensible change that has been made since (warpgate change, +4 range on phoenix, the WoL -> HotS ultra buff... / all the multiplayer changes with visible MMR, separate MMR) had been done when we transitioned from WoL to HotS. We wouldn't be playing the #100 esports right now.
Actually, if there was one change I think was necessary, it was the MSC. Prior to this, Protoss aggression was more of commitment than with other races due to their lack of mobilty. It also meant that you didn't need perfect forcefields to hold off and not straight up die to a basic stim timing.
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On October 03 2016 00:59 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2016 00:54 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Every single thing HotS and LotV introduced was unnecessary (when not straight harmful for the game) and now we're fighting desperately to try to make things that should never have existed / been needed in the first place be fair and work (oracles, adepts, tempests, disruptors : all unnecessary ; swarm host : unnecessary, viper : shouldn't have been needed ; liberator : shouldn't have been needed had the tank been solid...). And I fear this is never going to be the case, or it will be the case someday, but when the playerbase will be narrowed down to 3 players. I knew things were going to turn out poorly since they decided every expansion should be a revolution. So much could have been done with WoL set of units... Close your eyes and imagine every sensible change that has been made since (warpgate change, +4 range on phoenix, the WoL -> HotS ultra buff... / all the multiplayer changes with visible MMR, separate MMR) had been done when we transitioned from WoL to HotS. We wouldn't be playing the #100 esports right now. Actually, if there was one change I think was necessary, it was the MSC. Prior to this, Protoss aggression was more of commitment than with other races due to their lack of mobilty. It also meant that you didn't need perfect forcefields to hold off and not straight up die to a basic stim timing.
I ended up adding it to my list because I think it shows P was designed wrong in the first place. I agree it was necessary, but because they were so reluctant to make the sensible change they did to warpgate from HotS to LotV they couldn't buff gateway units.
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jesus my man. There is no way to 'save' SC2. This is simply supply and demand at work. You could try pouring millions of dollars into this industry, it's just not going to revive it. If anything, it will only increase the SC2 bubble. The popularity is just not there. This isn't the community's fault, this isn't Kespa's fault, this certainly is not Blizzard's fault. It's just pure fact that people don't like RTS's currently. There is no way to fix that.
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Incidentally, if I had to say what's flawed with Starcraft 2's development process it's that I don't think they have players of a high skill level in the office itself. Competitive game design isn't just creatives with a vision making decisions, what they come up with needs to go through multiple iterations before it's right. And they won't know it's right until proper competitive players get their hands on it and provide feedback that way. Magic: the Gathering is kinda great for this, they have both a design team and a playtest team of ex-pros and combined they go a long way to ensuring that Magic remains a well made competitive game.
As a game Starcraft's two biggest issues are that it's an RTS game, and people just have difficulty wrapping their heads around those these days, and that it's intentionally designed to be incredibly fucking hard to play.
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Just say it like it is and cut the tldr out brother
Blizzard put a man who ruined Dawn of War in a position to balance the most complex and in depth RTS ever created maybe besides Brood War.
Just look at David Kims method of operation, there really isn't one, he has been floundering around and flip flopping since day 1 pretty much with no clear concise vision of what he wants to do or where he wants the game to go.
Anyone remember Ghosts and blue flame hellions? They got abused for maybe 1 or 2 tournaments and Kim promptly brings the nerf hammer down, then when BL/Infestor chased away 1/4 of the viewers and was obviously imbalanced we had to deal with it for 6 months while the balance team say on their hands claiming that waiting it out was the way to go.
Theres multitudes of examples like this throughout the patches that I'm sure everyone here remembers so theres little need to harp on them all, but still, you can't put someone incompetent in charge and then except things to go good, that doesn't work in real life, and it didn't work with SC2.
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On October 03 2016 01:13 hjkim1304 wrote:
jesus my man. There is no way to 'save' SC2. This is simply supply and demand at work. You could try pouring millions of dollars into this industry, it's just not going to revive it. If anything, it will only increase the SC2 bubble. The popularity is just not there. This isn't the community's fault, this isn't Kespa's fault, this certainly is not Blizzard's fault. It's just pure fact that people don't like RTS's currently. There is no way to fix that.
can't say I disagree. But had some things been done better, maybe we wouldn't be in dire straits like now. Not the most popular, but in OK shape. Right now everything seems to be falling apart.
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EPT
