EPTIt just makes stargate openers unviable, nothing more. If you think that people are not supposed to react to the oracle AT ALL and doing one single action (getting stalkers/marines/widow mines or putting down the spore) or two when you have a natural is too much to ask for, in a dynamic game where information is important, scouting and interaction makes for a fun game, you are a horrible game designer.
Changing the Oracle - Page 2
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Buffbefehl
Germany16 Posts
It just makes stargate openers unviable, nothing more. If you think that people are not supposed to react to the oracle AT ALL and doing one single action (getting stalkers/marines/widow mines or putting down the spore) or two when you have a natural is too much to ask for, in a dynamic game where information is important, scouting and interaction makes for a fun game, you are a horrible game designer. | ||
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
A little off topic but also when i think about it, shouldn't the Nexus buff be removed now that Marauders have been Nerfed ? | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
(I'm not even trying to troll here...) | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
 Unlike my compatriot that I'm commonly mistaken for I'm in Diamond and Zerg. Also unlike Probe, I don't have a particular grievance with the oracle itself. I do have one with the style of gameplay it represents. I left Starcraft 2 near the end of WoL when I couldn't stomach another day of blord infestor, and came back in August. Thanks to the practice and work in WoL I found it very easy to just outmacro opponents regardless of what unit they made until I reached the diamond 2 range and opponents started executing pro level builds. Reaching this has made me painfully awaken to the kind of game Starcraft 2 (still) is and has affected my motivation to continue advancing. Widow mines. If you had told me Terran, already the best offensive race, was going to get ranged & reusable banelings in WoL I would have balked. If I mis-micro or don't watch my army at a critical and unpredictable second, I can lose a game. I did lose a game two days ago when a single widow mine managed to kill the majority of my banelings and there was absolutely fuck all I could have done about it except not engage because of the fear that a widow mine may exist. Oracles. I don't have the problem of them evaporating mineral lines currently since I'm favoring ling bane hydra lurker, and I'll have lots of queens and hydras to fend them off. I'm actually quite pleased when my opponent opens stargate since it puts me in a good position to be active on the map and rush to a lurker den. But that potential is there. It's always there that I could mis-micro and in an instant get so far behind that it becomes my opponent's game to lose and all he has to do is make minor mistakes to win. 16 Marine drop timings with or without widow mines/hellbats. Again with the theme - if I don't scout correctly and respond correctly I lose. 5 minutes gone. I need to know on all maps where to place my overlords around my third, and I need to dedicate my time spreading creep. If marines are allowed to get to a base before my entire queen/ling army then that's the game. They do significant economic damage while expanding their economy behind it and they themselves are only vulnerable to an all in. Defend, or lose. All these things create a very boring game from my perspective. ZvT is extremely stale and I know what my opponent is going to do before the match starts. I have faith in some of the upcoming balance changes, especially to liberators which may once again make mutas a viable unit on all maps instead of just Dasan. But still, there will be fundamental issues with the game design where a single mistake very early on can cost you the game completely. That isn't very compelling or enjoyable. I've never lost a rocket league match because of a single error. I can see why people would compare widow mines potential to burrowed banelings but I think there is enough evidence to show that burrowed banelings are barely above gimmick tier. Using them effectively is extremely rare and it costs more time and relies on more chance than comparable units for other races. Many people are intensely defensive about the existing status quo. I think LSN in a recent thread correctly identified how people are trapped within the system and don't want to let go of the skill they have for the chance of a better game. As time has gone on (and I have returned to find) people have left rather than listen to the same crappy arguments in defense of the punishing core gameplay of SC2, and left the shadow of what was once a bustling community to be the kings of a dung hill. Truth be told I don't think Blizzard will recognize and change the core gameplay mechanics that have not served the game for six years running. People will continue to leave and over the next 1-2 years tournaments will shrink further, more pros will leave for more lucrative games, and still there will be people that say "This is fine". But Blizzard has an opportunity today, tomorrow, and every day after. SC2s future isn't written in stone. The oracle could become a very technical, skill rewarding spellcasting unit that (like the sentry) is considered a solid unit that has uses throughout the game and rewards better players. Right now, like many other things I've brought up, they rely on punishing momentary lapses of opponents and are either easily dealt with or end the game. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
On October 09 2016 21:27 brickrd wrote: also disagree with the people saying revelation has no counterplay... if all you do is sit at your third and fourth base with your whole army and then do a big push then yeah revelation screws you, but if you're active on the map you can definitely use revelation to fake aggression by making it look like youre attacking, which taxes your opponents APM and affects his decision making. it could probably be slightly nerfed in fairness, but non protoss underestimate the amount of attention and micro it takes just to fly your oracle around and land revelations constantly. its not automatic, it takes control I am sorry but that is not a real counterplay, that is not even a "play". Also using revelation takes minimum effort, you need to use it every 1 minute, and it is pretty easy to execute. Even if you manage to lose your oracle somehow, you can make a new one in that 1 minute anyway. | ||
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temporary1
69 Posts
At professional level, ppl can deal with oracles so they aren't that common. In ladder, protosses are absolutely stomped anyways, so that indicates protoss should be made easier if anything. Also the principle and difficulty of executing of, say, proxy oracle in PvT is similar to proxy mine drop in TvP, and both can be dealt with if reacted accordingly while being able to deal game ending damage if not. I'd also say that at lower levels standard builds are those which deal with common attacks best, so ppl tend to choose openers that naturally are able to deal with pretty much anything done early game. | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
On October 09 2016 22:10 travis wrote: Maybe just learn to play? (I'm not even trying to troll here...) Yeah definitely, and people who play this game all the time don't run into this problem because they know how to deal with it and as they go up the leagues they have the multitasking. But, that doesn't mean we can't try to make the design of the unit better. Try to help casuals and lower levels players while providing the pros with another tool at their disposal to show their skill. Because even currently at the top level oracles do very little damage wise. And then stasis is lacking. We just see revelation for days. I don't want to make it that you don't have to learn how to play the game. But instead redirect it to other areas of the game. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On October 09 2016 18:53 Charoisaur wrote: I don't know if oracles are fair, fun to play or whatever but all I know is that they are extremely limiting to the variety of buildorders (especially against terran) so a change to them would be welcome. This is by far the biggest problem with the unit but it gets brushed aside because people is used to terran being the race with no variety and think that is how it should be (it isnt). Back in HotS mech players were trying todo make mech work in TvP, so got to gether and started working on ways and creating builds todo make mech playa work, EJK, Zizlha and HTOmario among others made guides about that, however the number 1 problem forma early game builds was always the same: The oracle. If a build didn't had anti oracle meassures it wasn't viable, you needed to have specific responses already in order or it was GG, comparing it to WM like some people do shows this, yes you need detection to 100% stop a WM drop, bit with good response time you can bait the WM shot with a single por worker or even kill the WM (and sometimes even the medivac) with PO, with an oracle you either have the stuff and in place or you die no matter how you react. At this point it becomes a unit that depends on build order and not on skill for the defending side, and thats awful design. | ||
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PowerOfOne
Peru78 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
It's not that Oracles are hard to deal with, a single turret/spore/pylon charge is fine. It's that at low levels players forget they have to do this in case of oracle. And imo it's stupid that a single unit can end the game 5 minutes in (without it being an allin or anything), because the other guy forgets to make a turret over his mineral line. (even DTs aren't that bad, because obsrever/scan/overseer is something everyone tends to have). | ||
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alpenrahm
Germany629 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24237 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
The idea is to make the unit less game ending for the noobs and more skill cap/less gimmick for the pros, if your going to tell me that the Oracle isn't a gimmick unit I humbly ask for an explanation, because at this point it.. - Forces blind anti air at times because the mere threat of it can be game ending - If unprepared it's game ending, you can't lose 10+ workers and then win barring massive throws from the Protoss - It's abilities all last for far too long - Snowball unit, if you take losses the enemy can simply keep building Oracles and there is little you can do - If you make 1 anti air structure at the right time the Oracle flies around picking off 1 or 2 workers and becomes kind of dead weight My idea is.. - Forces anti - air but the initial, "oh no I didnt scout it" isn't auto gg in worker losses - Increased range enables it to continuously harass despite anti - air keeps it safe distance to detect - Permanent detection eliminates the need for Revelation in it's current form - Won't snow ball, it won't be good vs. light units and structures, you'll have to micro to shave off workers reliably, but as long as you micro the unit will never die to Spores/Turrets - Won't be so imbalanced vs. Terran early game - More range = more micro opportunity = the Pros will benefit | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On October 09 2016 22:10 travis wrote: Maybe just learn to play? (I'm not even trying to troll here...) Bullshit, yes you are, contribute something substantial or go to another thread, everyone knows how to play against the Oracle, that doesn't mean that it's not a poorly designed gimmick unit. That's why the title of the thread is, "Changing the Oracle" and not "Nerf the Oracle" or "The Oracle is impossible to play against". | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 09 2016 13:59 mGGrinehart wrote: ... Problem: My main issue with oracles is that they can end games so easily at casual/lower levels. At the pro level, we hardly ever see an oracle just straight up end the game, and this is because the higher level players have the multitasking and experience to deal with it. ... I strongly disagree with this statement, for several reasons : 1 - you're a GM assuming things about lower league players troubles, and you miss the target. Yes It will happen that an oracle can win a game at 3'30 if the opponent hasn't prepared for a proxy oracle in his build, but same can be said for almost every unit : you don't see the 2 mines dropping in your probe line? you're dead. You forgot to build that turret? DT warp in kill you and so on. IN lower leagues people die from bad macro and mistakes, that's normal, Changing a unit just for this is irrelevant. 2 - An oracle winning a game doesn't happen that often because players are in the same league and the oracle is often late and microed badly. I say that in lower leagues people trying to go for aggressive oracle build get as much losses than wins, simply because they're as bad as their opponent when it comes to macro and micro. 3-What will we do once oracle is nerfed? nerf 12 pool? nerf widow mines? nerf reapers? nerf banelings? nerf 1 base roach aravager? cause people do lose games from this shit too in lower leagues. dealing with early aggression is part of the learning path of the game, we've all been there we all took these loss and we learnt from them. Last, oracle is a fine unit, deadly if not anticipated, but almost harmless when your build and execution is good enough, plus as you pointed out reveal and stasis ward are very important spells that bring alot to the game. That's the definition of a good unit in my book. If anything, reduce the length of the reveal ability that's too damn long (yes, I play terran and I'm biased  ) | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 10 2016 01:25 [PkF] Wire wrote: 100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection. "such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make.. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On October 10 2016 01:56 Beelzebub1 wrote: Wow, 75% of this thread is just full of buried head in the sand, "The Lolracle is okay learn to play" and the other 25% is actual suggestions and ideas. it s better than having your head burried in your ass... | ||
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Penev
28512 Posts
On October 10 2016 02:10 Gwavajuice wrote: "such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make.. On October 10 2016 00:39 alpenrahm wrote: this is just such a selfish, typical protoss post... hey oracles are kinda bad so just remove all the stuff thats useless anyway and give it some big buff at its strong points. And of course this is good for low league balance aswell! You know, it is possible to disagree with someone without also insulting them | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Both Terran (widow mines) and Zerg (banelings) have strong options in this regard, but stasis ward is very rarely utilized (and on a side note I think it is absolutely ridiculous, from a game design/spectator POV, that widow mines can be so effectively used as a worker harassment tool by simply burrowing them in plain view of the opponent). Buffing Stasis Ward too much in terms of cast time could be an issue balance-wise as it was essentially a high-tier spell in BW. I would very much like to see it changed to affect air units as a mass air deterrent is something Protoss sorely lacks. Perhaps it can be changed so that it acts as the old Entomb did, but instead of freezing mineral patches it freezes units. That way there is still counterplay involved, and opens up some interesting tactical play as well (i.e. hitting another location when their army is freeing their "entombed" workers). For balance, I think one option could be to add a fleet beacon upgrade which increases the range/cast time of stasis ward to open up its usage late-game, while keeping it a harassment and trap mechanic in the mid-game. I think changing revelation to a BW-style parasite is also more interesting from a game design/spectator POV, but I can't really think of any interesting way of adding detection to the Oracle. | ||
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