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On October 10 2016 02:10 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 01:25 [PkF] Wire wrote:
100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection. "such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make..
the stasis ward ability is vastly underused. If the cost was adjusted yeah I'd definitely build some. And no need to be a sarcastic ass.
On October 10 2016 02:34 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 02:10 Gwavajuice wrote:On October 10 2016 01:25 [PkF] Wire wrote:
100% agree with making the oracle a support caster instead of the build order limiting gimmick it is currently. Grant it perma detection, remove the attack spell, and buff the stasis a bit if needed. Reduce the unit cost if necessary. But it would be such a better design for the unit, and this way P really would be far less dependent on observers for detection. "such a better design" err... well... ok... do you really think one would build a visible observer that cost much more, just for the stasis ward ability.... what a good designer you'd make.. Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 00:39 alpenrahm wrote:
this is just such a selfish, typical protoss post... hey oracles are kinda bad so just remove all the stuff thats useless anyway and give it some big buff at its strong points. And of course this is good for low league balance aswell! You know, it is possible to disagree with someone without also insulting them
this exactly
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On October 10 2016 02:11 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 01:56 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Wow, 75% of this thread is just full of buried head in the sand, "The Lolracle is okay learn to play" and the other 25% is actual suggestions and ideas.
it s better than having your head burried in your ass...
Yet again more personal insult trading, do you guys have anything of any substance to contribute to the discussion of Changing the Oracle or is it just shit on whoever's opinion you disagree with?
Hardly an insult to say your head is buried in the sand if you don't think the Oracle is gimmicky, I would wager that your in the relative minority.
Even if you don't agree that it's a straight up gimmick, I can agree to disagree on that, but don't you at least agree that the potential of the Oracle is not being reached?
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I don't agree with this thread. I think the Oracle is a very nice unit, that has a well designed role, and right now it fits well in the game.
You never see a pro-game where one of the players just straight up loses to oracles in the mineral lines, usually the P gets 1-2 oracles and uses them to do light harass early on (since they are always defended with queens, turrets, etc.) and then they have good values in the rest of the game with stasis and revelation. They are not good in straight up fights and they are not so difficult to defend when harassing. They are hard to use while maintaining top level macro and control of the army, so they reward the good players who are able to multitask. They have a nice role in the late game to tag enemy armies, and they are almost necessary to play vs lukers.
Yes, you will occasionally have the one game where you loose to proxy stargate beause you loose 10 scv/drones very early, just like you have the occasional game when you loose to early pools, proxy factories, etc. Every race has cheese, and that's good, it keeps players from being too greedy.
Finally, I truly don't understand what "gimmicky" means.
It seems all protoss discussions resolve to saying: this or that is gimmicky.
Usually sg opening with 1-2 oracles are used to transition to mid game while doing some harass damage and keep an eye on the opponent.
Sometimes I loose because I don't scout the 2xmedivac drop and I loose all my probes in a matter of seconds.. do I think that marines should be nerfed? no, obviously...
p.s you CAN scout for proxies.. I always scout with the probe that builds the first pylon, because I want to check the most used spot to proxy factories / rax (I lost too many times to proxy reapers, or proxy factory -> cyclones). Yes, you loose a bit of mining time, but do you really think it matters when you are not master/gm ?
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you cant reason balance with low tier players... the only thing thats bothering me as a terran is the revelation wich is way to long imo
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It's an interesting idea to shift the utility of Oracles away from Pulsar Beam and towards Stasis Ward. The unit was originally designed as a "non-lethal" harasser after all, at least before they caved into community pressure and gave it Pulsar Beam instead.
Then again, stasis is an incredibly strong crowd control state, and seeing it too often could lead to similar, likely even bigger problems than what we've seen out of other crowd control spells like Force Field and Time Warp. That's probably the reason reason why stasis in Brood War was locked so high up in the tech tree, requiring investment in two tech paths, a tech building, and research.
A buff to Stasis Ward to be useful in harassment would need other changes to the spell as well so that it doesn't become as troublesome as the other crowd control spells were over the years in SC2.
I don't think the unit is in an absolute, desperate need for a redesign like that at the moment though. I think it's just a few tweaks away from being in better shape for the game. A redesign that works would be nice, but it'll take a lot more thought and iteration to get there.
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I like the idea. I think giving it an attack was lazy, compromising design. Not every unit needs to have something that deals direct damage.
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Please don't nerf Has... FeelsBadMan
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I went and got the changes published as an extension mod. Just search Probe's Oracle Changes to find it!
It is currently available on all servers.
The best way to get a feel for the change is to play with it!
Changes:
Oracle Attack Removed.
Stasis ward cast time cut in half.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/40BLUVe.jpg)
Big thanks to Satu for making this for me <3
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yes whining about the oracle where widow mines and banelings can kill instant 12 workers, where the oracle takes 10 seconds for that. nice logic
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Well it would be nice to see Phoenix openings
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It's fine as it is, stop whining.
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Make stasis ward expire, its stupid to have endless "bombs" on the field. Good toss players are already placing stasis wards. Or make it visible before it goes off, just like mines.
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On October 23 2016 19:55 NutriaKaiN wrote:
yes whining about the oracle where widow mines and banelings can kill instant 12 workers, where the oracle takes 10 seconds for that. nice logic
Banelings and mines can be micro'd against even if you didn't scout them incoming. With good reactions a mine drop kills 2 workers, bane drop sometimes less with good splits/worker micro.
An oracle however is instant game over if no turret/pylon/queens is there. I have ended ladder games as toss just by sending it in there/shift clicking its beam. Which is stupid.
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Really interresting proposition.
I fear that at pro level, the oracle's attack problem comes more from the protoss ability to mass them more easely than the terran will mass the responding marines. you often see a first oracle avoiding damage and waiting it's mate(s) to destroy everything.
But your change is a great answer to that too.
I also fear that you might underestimate the revelation's impact on the game. Especially in late game where it can easely grant you a permanent. vision of your opponent's moves.
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EPT
