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On August 02 2016 09:35 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Thanks LongShot, but judging by the tone in your word choice, you seem biased against Invasion (et. al).
A time-stamped conversation is a good start, but more proof is still necessary. Contracts or receipts would be a good start, as well as more correspondence between the two parties. Any emails that went back/forth? Backing of another coach is not proof.
Is the 'poorly photo-shopped conversation' really photoshopped? What proof that it is a fake? Backing of a known shitposter might discredit Invasion (et. al) but that isn't proof against them.
I am trying to remain unbiased, and I hope others try to. We can't jump to conclusions (even though I would love to be on Gumiho's side cuz he is the fucking Towel Terran).
Also, this shit is getting boring. It was interesting when Quantic screwed Hyun, and the drama ensued with other teams, but its getting played out now.
Guys, get a fucking contract. Don't rely on someone's word, because words can be misinterpreted.
edit: and lets stop with the fundraising to bail out these guys... I know it sucks that he is screwed over, but if we keep bailing out our progamers, they will never learn to protect themselves.
It's almost like I said they should both have receipts, oh wait...
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On August 02 2016 10:05 DisillusionedAcronym wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 08:34 LongShot27 wrote:On August 02 2016 07:58 stuchiu wrote:On August 02 2016 07:55 Deathstar wrote:On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote:On August 02 2016 07:36 Elentos wrote:On August 02 2016 07:31 SC2FeaR1 wrote:
You guys have no clue about the situation theres 2 ppl making statements and you just have to wait for whatever comes out of it but all this stupid hate on either choya sebou or for some reason demuslim ???? Is pointless and stupid imo just wanted to make that clear! Demuslim got hate for hating on Choya for no reason. Also Choya is backed up by Legend (coach of another Proleague team) who says he has a similar situation going on with Invasion, so it's not just 2 people. Besides, the odds that anything comes out of this at all are low. i mean demuslim isnt the only one not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" "Sebou only does generous and nice things" aside from conning players of their money. How convenient of rifkin to leave out the factor that goes against his initial position. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors thought he was a nice and generous guy who participated in many charities and volunteer organizations. Except for the other stuff Jeffrey did. I imagine g2a was also nice and generous to work with. This is why I take nothing BASETRADETV says anymore seriously did you before? :-D
I watched way back when it was Doom, Rifkin, me and 20 other people so yeah I believed. But then when they shady business practices, tip jar and sponsors showed up I cried a bit.
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why is this guy hiding if he is innocent or hasnt posted any explanation? he avoided ,ignored choya msgs and didnt even bother to explain so for anyone outside his friends , he looks like a scammer
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So both parties agreed that money is owed. Now we have one side saying "I paid" while other said "Gimme my money".
I still can't choose a side, but at least I have a better understanding.
No, Sebou doesn't claim he paid all. In fact he claims he could not pay coz he could not meet Choy coz he was "drunk" and/or will not pay coz arrangements were different. But allows Choy to employ lawyers in Switzerland and go to court over there.
All I can say, Mr. Sebou is bluffing and he is in deeeeeep shit.
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On August 02 2016 10:10 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 09:35 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
Thanks LongShot, but judging by the tone in your word choice, you seem biased against Invasion (et. al).
A time-stamped conversation is a good start, but more proof is still necessary. Contracts or receipts would be a good start, as well as more correspondence between the two parties. Any emails that went back/forth? Backing of another coach is not proof.
Is the 'poorly photo-shopped conversation' really photoshopped? What proof that it is a fake? Backing of a known shitposter might discredit Invasion (et. al) but that isn't proof against them.
I am trying to remain unbiased, and I hope others try to. We can't jump to conclusions (even though I would love to be on Gumiho's side cuz he is the fucking Towel Terran).
Also, this shit is getting boring. It was interesting when Quantic screwed Hyun, and the drama ensued with other teams, but its getting played out now.
Guys, get a fucking contract. Don't rely on someone's word, because words can be misinterpreted.
edit: and lets stop with the fundraising to bail out these guys... I know it sucks that he is screwed over, but if we keep bailing out our progamers, they will never learn to protect themselves. In this case it doesn't matter if you have a contract. The sum that is in play means that if you get actual lawyers to hold someone to the contract you are losing out on thousands more dollars.
Yeah true, with such a small sum, getting lawyers involved would cost you more out of pocket.
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On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 07:36 Elentos wrote:On August 02 2016 07:31 SC2FeaR1 wrote:
You guys have no clue about the situation theres 2 ppl making statements and you just have to wait for whatever comes out of it but all this stupid hate on either choya sebou or for some reason demuslim ???? Is pointless and stupid imo just wanted to make that clear! Demuslim got hate for hating on Choya for no reason. Also Choya is backed up by Legend (coach of another Proleague team) who says he has a similar situation going on with Invasion, so it's not just 2 people. Besides, the odds that anything comes out of this at all are low. i mean demuslim isnt the only one https://twitter.com/Rif_kingz/status/760194273262247936not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason"
Highly doubt Rifkin & Choya ever could converse properly and be best buddies cracking jokes(but tbh Rifkin's jokes tend to be bad so it might worsen the situation) with the amount of language gap between them.
If Choya's lack of cordial conversation and constant money nagging sounds selfish and greedy, sure. He's just trying to talk business because that's hard enough with his limited english. People say Poohsik(TCM) is greedy too, but he just tries to make sure his guys, who don't know anything but how to play Starcraft, get their money. Again, no specific event given by Rifkin to demonstrate the personality, don't know what to think.
I left this out because it felt I would be called for biased opinion, but- I had the great fortune to go look around Hungryapp studios during Choya's protoss tutorial(thanks to my cousin lol), and Choya was a great guy. Relaxed and funny, cracked me up a few times, said hi to everybody, and really cared about his team. Only problem I could see(from past posts on SGall and stuff, not the studio) was that he was very protective of his team, which might not be good in diplomatic situations.
This is also the reason(other than questionable photoshop traces) why I believe the skype thing is fake. In my opinion, Choya won't go all "yeah man just take Gumiho's money, I didn't even talk to him or anything, y'know, much happy we got this sorted out"
TL:DR: Rifkin can't speak korean so he sucks at Starcraft.
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In this case it doesn't matter if you have a contract. The sum that is in play means that if you get actual lawyers to hold someone to the contract you are losing out on thousands more dollars
Not necessarily. Lawyers are available for a percentage of money awarded. You can claim damages for fraud. All in all you can get back your money with a bonus and the lawyer will be fat.
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On August 02 2016 10:35 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +In this case it doesn't matter if you have a contract. The sum that is in play means that if you get actual lawyers to hold someone to the contract you are losing out on thousands more dollars Not necessarily. Lawyers are available for a percentage of money awarded. You can claim damages for fraud. All in all you can get back your money with a bonus and the lawyer will be fat. Percentage lawyers don't work on $5000 cases, and claiming extra damages is very difficult. Please don't talk about things you have no clue about.
I would love for Rifkin to clarify what he means by "greedy". Demanding full payment immediately? Should be the norm....
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On August 02 2016 10:19 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +So both parties agreed that money is owed. Now we have one side saying "I paid" while other said "Gimme my money".
I still can't choose a side, but at least I have a better understanding. No, Sebou doesn't claim he paid all. In fact he claims he could not pay coz he could not meet Choy coz he was "drunk" and/or will not pay coz arrangements were different. But allows Choy to employ lawyers in Switzerland and go to court over there. All I can say, Mr. Sebou is bluffing and he is in deeeeeep shit.
Unrelated, but why do you abbreviate Choya to be just Choy? Is that extra 'a' too much effort, or is this some nickname that I just don't know about?
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:35 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +In this case it doesn't matter if you have a contract. The sum that is in play means that if you get actual lawyers to hold someone to the contract you are losing out on thousands more dollars Not necessarily. Lawyers are available for a percentage of money awarded. You can claim damages for fraud. All in all you can get back your money with a bonus and the lawyer will be fat.
so a lawyer is gonna waste tens of hours to get some hundreds of dollars for this?
Here's a link to the only esportslawy guy out there doing this sort of work. States the economics don't make taking up this case viable.
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vmg6q/legend_exsbenuafreeca_coach_talks_about_invasion/d600z7l
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so a lawyer is gonna waste tens of hours to get some hundreds of dollars for this?
Here's a link to the only esportslawy guy out there doing this sort of work. States the economics don't make taking up this case viable.
Depends which country you employ the lawyer my friend. The case is not within Switzerland authority anyway:-)
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On August 02 2016 10:59 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +so a lawyer is gonna waste tens of hours to get some hundreds of dollars for this?
Here's a link to the only esportslawy guy out there doing this sort of work. States the economics don't make taking up this case viable. Depends which country you employ the lawyer my friend. The case is not within Switzerland authority anyway:-)
Problem here is that you need a lawyer that can speak both Korean and German/English, which is rare, expensive, and not out for those percentage claims. Sebou knows that so he can be boldfaced.
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On August 02 2016 10:16 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 10:05 DisillusionedAcronym wrote:On August 02 2016 08:34 LongShot27 wrote:On August 02 2016 07:58 stuchiu wrote:On August 02 2016 07:55 Deathstar wrote:On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote:On August 02 2016 07:36 Elentos wrote:On August 02 2016 07:31 SC2FeaR1 wrote:
You guys have no clue about the situation theres 2 ppl making statements and you just have to wait for whatever comes out of it but all this stupid hate on either choya sebou or for some reason demuslim ???? Is pointless and stupid imo just wanted to make that clear! Demuslim got hate for hating on Choya for no reason. Also Choya is backed up by Legend (coach of another Proleague team) who says he has a similar situation going on with Invasion, so it's not just 2 people. Besides, the odds that anything comes out of this at all are low. i mean demuslim isnt the only one https://twitter.com/Rif_kingz/status/760194273262247936not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" "Sebou only does generous and nice things" aside from conning players of their money. How convenient of rifkin to leave out the factor that goes against his initial position. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors thought he was a nice and generous guy who participated in many charities and volunteer organizations. Except for the other stuff Jeffrey did. I imagine g2a was also nice and generous to work with. This is why I take nothing BASETRADETV says anymore seriously did you before? :-D I watched way back when it was Doom, Rifkin, me and 20 other people so yeah I believed. But then when they shady business practices, tip jar and sponsors showed up I cried a bit.
god forbid they make a living out of it...
this is one of the main problems with the sc2 scene. Remember a few summers back when Destiny busted out this sick online tourney with kespa koreans and shit?
he never did it again cause kids were breaking his balls about where the money was going and how much he got from xyz sponsor...
People are entitled to make a living out of their hard work. Especially when they are passionate about sc2...
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Problem here is that you need a lawyer that can speak both Korean and German/English, which is rare, expensive, and not out for those percentage claims. Sebou knows that so he can be boldfaced.
Sebou is fucked if anyone tells any tax office to check what he is doing. Trust me, there are ways to get satisfaction.
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On August 02 2016 11:07 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 10:16 LongShot27 wrote:On August 02 2016 10:05 DisillusionedAcronym wrote:On August 02 2016 08:34 LongShot27 wrote:On August 02 2016 07:58 stuchiu wrote:On August 02 2016 07:55 Deathstar wrote:On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote:On August 02 2016 07:36 Elentos wrote:On August 02 2016 07:31 SC2FeaR1 wrote:
You guys have no clue about the situation theres 2 ppl making statements and you just have to wait for whatever comes out of it but all this stupid hate on either choya sebou or for some reason demuslim ???? Is pointless and stupid imo just wanted to make that clear! Demuslim got hate for hating on Choya for no reason. Also Choya is backed up by Legend (coach of another Proleague team) who says he has a similar situation going on with Invasion, so it's not just 2 people. Besides, the odds that anything comes out of this at all are low. i mean demuslim isnt the only one https://twitter.com/Rif_kingz/status/760194273262247936not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" "Sebou only does generous and nice things" aside from conning players of their money. How convenient of rifkin to leave out the factor that goes against his initial position. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors thought he was a nice and generous guy who participated in many charities and volunteer organizations. Except for the other stuff Jeffrey did. I imagine g2a was also nice and generous to work with. This is why I take nothing BASETRADETV says anymore seriously did you before? :-D I watched way back when it was Doom, Rifkin, me and 20 other people so yeah I believed. But then when they shady business practices, tip jar and sponsors showed up I cried a bit. god forbid they make a living out of it... this is one of the main problems with the sc2 scene. Remember a few summers back when Destiny busted out this sick online tourney with kespa koreans and shit? he never did it again cause kids were breaking his balls about where the money was going and how much he got from xyz sponsor... People are entitled to make a living out of their hard work. Especially when they are passionate about sc2...
In light of recent events viewbotting, gambling, match fixing/manipulation, and the way sponsorship works for many streamers who have gambling site and g2a and other related sponsors, we have seen the craven and degenerate underbelly of many esports personalities who are desperate for the extra cent. People are entitled to make a living out of their work and if it goes out of line of acceptable behavior, they'll be called out on it. Passion is just a punch line for people who manipulate the base to make money. This Sebou character is among many who have screwed over sc2 players and kind/generous viewers in order to make the extra cent.
If you want to talk about passion, talk about the guy who consistently writes articles for free or the people in bw who cast while working their own FT job. When the goal of money enters the room passion is about as honest as all the people in job interviews who are very passionate about whatever job they are applying for.
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On August 01 2016 21:19 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 19:35 FireCake wrote:On August 01 2016 19:18 LongShot27 wrote:
Man esports competitors are really really naive across all games. STOP LETTING OTHER PEOPLE HANDLE YOUR PRIZE MONEY. If your team demands individual prizes be handled by them you need to know theyre gonna take it. Sucks for gumiho. Many progamers prefer that their team gets the prizemoney directly then send it back to them... Because if tournament organizer gives you the money directly they have to pay tax and you get less money in the process. But if tournament organizer gives the money directly to your organization they don't pay taxes and you will in the end get all your prize money. I never really understand why but this is how it works. You still have to pay taxes it's just taxed differently. Instead of an "award/winnings/bonus" whatever they call it in each country tax. If your organization who is your employer pays you it just goes under income tax which for most people in most places will be lower than taking it directly. And the organization has to pay tax when they receive it so usually the roughly same amount of money is taken out in taxes, you've just created a middle man, who often in this case just takes everything.
It's a myth that there's a higher winnings / bonus tax than simple income tax, at least in the United States. If this were truly the case, people would just request increased salaries (for a temporary time) in order to obtain the increased income.
Bonuses are taxed no different than ordinary income, same with other awards / winnings, such as the lottery. More may be withheld originally, which may make it seem less, but you get it back when you file your taxes.
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I don't see why it matters if Choya owes him money or not. He should balance his checkbook with Gumiho/Invasion and Choya/MVP separately. I feel like this is some smokescreen.
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On August 02 2016 11:35 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 21:19 LongShot27 wrote:On August 01 2016 19:35 FireCake wrote:On August 01 2016 19:18 LongShot27 wrote:
Man esports competitors are really really naive across all games. STOP LETTING OTHER PEOPLE HANDLE YOUR PRIZE MONEY. If your team demands individual prizes be handled by them you need to know theyre gonna take it. Sucks for gumiho. Many progamers prefer that their team gets the prizemoney directly then send it back to them... Because if tournament organizer gives you the money directly they have to pay tax and you get less money in the process. But if tournament organizer gives the money directly to your organization they don't pay taxes and you will in the end get all your prize money. I never really understand why but this is how it works. You still have to pay taxes it's just taxed differently. Instead of an "award/winnings/bonus" whatever they call it in each country tax. If your organization who is your employer pays you it just goes under income tax which for most people in most places will be lower than taking it directly. And the organization has to pay tax when they receive it so usually the roughly same amount of money is taken out in taxes, you've just created a middle man, who often in this case just takes everything. It's a myth that there's a higher winnings / bonus tax than simple income tax, at least in the United States. If this were truly the case, people would just request increased salaries (for a temporary time) in order to obtain the increased income. Bonuses are taxed no different than ordinary income, same with other awards / winnings, such as the lottery. More may be withheld originally, which may make it seem less, but you get it back when you file your taxes.
Except when you win money in the united states and live in a foreign country? Are you getting it now?
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Re: Lawyers...hahaha.
Quite Frankly, this case is too small to be worth anyone's time. I think nearly every Lawyer that is qualified to look into this dispute will charge more than the money that's missing.
If something like this happened in New Zealand - you'd go to what we call the disputes tribunal to handle cases that are under NZD$15,000 (or NZD$20,000 if both parties agree to it). I imagine that both Switzerland and Korea have something similar in place to handle small monetary disputes.
Besides, given the pictures we've seen - I highly doubt that either side has contracts that will hold up in a court.
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FireCake mentioned earlier in the thread about why players choose their teams/organisations to receive the money on their behalf. I think I can answer that from a Taxation point of view (as I work as a Tax Accountant that specialises in filing Resident Tax returns with foreign Income).
If the eSports organisations like Dreamhack or IEM pays the prize money directly to the winners then they might be liable to pay a form Withholding Tax (WT) to their respective Tax Department (in the native country) before paying a net amount to winner. By Dreamhack paying the winnings to an organisation (like a team) there's probably a way to bypass this WT requirement (company to company transactions are seen as "business transactions" and any "profits" are taxed once the Operating Profit for said company is calculated) so the team receives the entire gross payment of prize money. The team then pays their Player in the form of a bonus or extra payment with the correct amount of Tax Deducted in the Player's Home country. This way there's less work for the player involved when it comes to calculating the tax that they need to pay at the end of the tax year and worry about double taxation agreements between countries, what's available as tax credits in the player's resident country and so forth. Also there's potential for Tax Credits to get lost if the WT deductions are higher than the Player's Home Country's Tax rate. Here in NZ the WT tax rate is higher than our lowest PAYE/PAYG Salary Tax rate.
If anyone is interested, I can provide a detailed example of the benefits of having money go through a company as opposed to a person for tax purposes. Just let me know somewhere below or PM me.
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In light of all of this, I hope that Harstem doesn't get caught out with any tax issues given the shady stuff we've caught glimpses today.
I think the original agreements were done in Good Faith but Sebou is probably too young, too inexperienced and never thought through his decisions with the Korean Teams / Personnel. Maybe he was one overly enthusiastic fan that bit off more than he could chew. Sadly though, this seems like another Quantic/LYGF episode... 
I don't know much about the Choya/MLG thing - but I think he should have been a bit more cautious after that incident especially with foreign money.
For those of you that say Choya is greedy - try to remember he's running an organisation. He needs to pay his players, cover household costs and its no secret that MVP lack significant sponsors to comfortably cover all of this. Put yourself in his shoes and think about how, you would feel if you had employees that you couldn't pay and that you deeply cared about them?
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I wish this was treated like financial fraud and instead of legend having to hire a lawyer, the government would prosecute sebou. Stealing money is a crime and this shouldn't be a civil suit but a criminal suit.
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EPT
