EPTUPDATE:
http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=ca0acebecc8bb7c9ab996940c4a1c7216ae2f320.55003
Monetary conflict between Invasion, Choya, Legend
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
UPDATE: http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=ca0acebecc8bb7c9ab996940c4a1c7216ae2f320.55003
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GTR
51500 Posts
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
The drama ensues | ||
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Alchemik
Poland7124 Posts
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16016 Posts
On August 01 2016 12:59 Inflicted wrote: Is that $5k his DreamHack 2nd place prize? Sounds like DH is taking forever to pay He said he hasn't received the money from the manager so I assume the manager has taken the DH prize money. also he said 5000$ + DH prize money so the prize money is in addition to the 5000$ | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 01 2016 12:40 GTR wrote: and this is the same guy who got sioras disqualified in his first major tournament? I think that was the tournament organizers. But this is the dude who is always showing off how rich he is on twitter | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
Except plane tickets and stuffs... | ||
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riotjune
United States3394 Posts
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
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Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
On August 01 2016 13:02 Charoisaur wrote: He said he hasn't received the money from the manager so I assume the manager has taken the DH prize money. also he said 5000$ + DH prize money so the prize money is in addition to the 5000$ Oh, I thought he played Valencia under Invasion too but he was on MVP already. Yeah, NoRegreT said DH is taking forever to pay out Regional Challenger prize pools. Neeb still hasn't been paid for Spring | ||
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TelecoM
United States10684 Posts
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TechNoTrance
Canada1007 Posts
He's already made his twitter feed private after this rather than make any statement. Such a coward. This doesn't look good for Gumiho. | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
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Penev
28504 Posts
Yay esports :/ | ||
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HornyHerring
Papua New Guinea1059 Posts
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On August 01 2016 13:47 NinjaToss wrote: Legend was also very angry at Sebou for some reason a few months back Oh I'm pretty sure Legend still hates him. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
Not like it couldn't be foreseen from the very start of this "team" ^^ | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
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_fool
Netherlands678 Posts
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KappaKingPrime
United States468 Posts
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Penev
28504 Posts
On August 01 2016 16:59 HornyHerring wrote: Is anyone even still surprised? This is the market and this is how those teams operate because it's not regulated and there are no real repercussions for stealing. Judging from the comments Nope | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On August 01 2016 16:59 HornyHerring wrote: Is anyone even still surprised? This is the market and this is how those teams operate because it's not regulated and there are no real repercussions for stealing. Yeah, this is the problem, isn't it... It's not like there will be any legal action taken... everyone is free to play the con-man and promise all kinds of things, with virtually nothing at stake apart from the reputation in StarCraft. And it's the pro gamers that take the hit. To fix this there had to be consequences to scamming, or everyone has to pay in advance. The latter isn't really feasible for a lot of (honest) organisations, so it kindof had to be the former. So I guess we would need a players association that help players set up contracts that actually will put the organisers in legal trouble if they don't pay? Without punishing honest organisations too much? Wasn't there something like that at some point? I don't know, I'm a random gold player that theory crafts. Does the above make any sense? | ||
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
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rotta
5596 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
But Choya was the guy who didnt understand american taxes and called out MLG for missing money of MarineKing just to ruin their name. That does not help him when it comes to financial call outs. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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ruypture
United States367 Posts
didnt dreamhack start paying players directly? years ago? | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On August 01 2016 18:15 Cascade wrote: Yeah, this is the problem, isn't it... It's not like there will be any legal action taken... everyone is free to play the con-man and promise all kinds of things, with virtually nothing at stake apart from the reputation in StarCraft. And it's the pro gamers that take the hit. To fix this there had to be consequences to scamming, or everyone has to pay in advance. The latter isn't really feasible for a lot of (honest) organisations, so it kindof had to be the former. So I guess we would need a players association that help players set up contracts that actually will put the organisers in legal trouble if they don't pay? Without punishing honest organisations too much? Wasn't there something like that at some point? I don't know, I'm a random gold player that theory crafts. Does the above make any sense? Well, a players' union (or several players' unions, even) would be the most basic thing that should happen. But that's eSports players we're talking about. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 01 2016 18:15 Cascade wrote: Yeah, this is the problem, isn't it... It's not like there will be any legal action taken... everyone is free to play the con-man and promise all kinds of things, with virtually nothing at stake apart from the reputation in StarCraft. And it's the pro gamers that take the hit. To fix this there had to be consequences to scamming, or everyone has to pay in advance. The latter isn't really feasible for a lot of (honest) organisations, so it kindof had to be the former. So I guess we would need a players association that help players set up contracts that actually will put the organisers in legal trouble if they don't pay? Without punishing honest organisations too much? Wasn't there something like that at some point? I don't know, I'm a random gold player that theory crafts. Does the above make any sense? Or players could not let other people handle their affairs | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On August 01 2016 19:18 LongShot27 wrote: Man esports competitors are really really naive across all games. STOP LETTING OTHER PEOPLE HANDLE YOUR PRIZE MONEY. If your team demands individual prizes be handled by them you need to know theyre gonna take it. Sucks for gumiho. Many progamers prefer that their team gets the prizemoney directly then send it back to them... Because if tournament organizer gives you the money directly they have to pay tax and you get less money in the process. But if tournament organizer gives the money directly to your organization they don't pay taxes and you will in the end get all your prize money. I never really understand why but this is how it works. | ||
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SinO[Ob]
France897 Posts
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Creager
Germany1920 Posts
On August 01 2016 19:35 FireCake wrote: Many progamers prefer that their team gets the prizemoney directly then send it back to them... Because if tournament organizer gives you the money directly they have to pay tax and you get less money in the process. But if tournament organizer gives the money directly to your organization they don't pay taxes and you will in the end get all your prize money. I never really understand why but this is how it works. Really interesting aspect you brought up here, can anyone confirm this and maybe give further background insights? Teams/organizations should pay some sort of tax, as well (also depending on the amount of prize money), since they act profit-oriented. At least, that's how it would work in Germany, I think. | ||
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zyce
United States649 Posts
@KingSebou's Tweets are protected. Only confirmed followers have access to @KingSebou's Tweets and complete profile. Click the "Follow" button to send a follow request. Probably no answer forthcoming... what a terrible guy. Poor Gumiho, he's been playing so incredibly well. | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
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SkilleX
2 Posts
Although i was also a follower of his twitter account and his champagne here, champagne there posts. | ||
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Durenas
Canada45 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On August 01 2016 19:43 SinO[Ob] wrote: Seriously,, we need a Gordon Ramsey for Team Management. People need to learn how to run a team... "Fuck me..." Sad thing is, he probably know very well how to run a team, and most of all how to run a team that make him the most money by not paying his player. | ||
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
Considering his recent performance it shouldn't be too much to ask (join KT please!). | ||
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PolarisSpark
60 Posts
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vklyy/gumiho_owed_over_5000_from_invasion_esports/d5zeqzo Claims that he's already paid what's owed, so I guess we shouldn't raise our pitchforks too quickly yet. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 01 2016 19:35 FireCake wrote: Many progamers prefer that their team gets the prizemoney directly then send it back to them... Because if tournament organizer gives you the money directly they have to pay tax and you get less money in the process. But if tournament organizer gives the money directly to your organization they don't pay taxes and you will in the end get all your prize money. I never really understand why but this is how it works. You still have to pay taxes it's just taxed differently. Instead of an "award/winnings/bonus" whatever they call it in each country tax. If your organization who is your employer pays you it just goes under income tax which for most people in most places will be lower than taking it directly. And the organization has to pay tax when they receive it so usually the roughly same amount of money is taken out in taxes, you've just created a middle man, who often in this case just takes everything. | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Hello it had been brought to my attention that i am the main concern of this post. First of all i would like to point out that in no way Invasion or me owe gumiho 5000+ extras. Gumiho and Invasion were under contract and there were very specifics. I'm currently reviewing conversations, payements made by me and contracts so i can be accurate. Because despite the fact that Gumiho was in Invasion at a 100%, they had to agree to take different paths as Kespa didn't allowed him to play Proleague while being in a foreign team for round 2 or 3. So we reach an understanding that i would and only me support him to go to events even though he was representing MVP 100% during Tours HSC Valencia. And during this time he was supported by me personally, we had different terms. I'm writing this quickly before reviewing all the conversations and contract to show that i'm not going anywhere. He made it public, i will by consequence reveal all publicly. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
On August 01 2016 21:18 PolarisSpark wrote: Sebou replied in the reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vklyy/gumiho_owed_over_5000_from_invasion_esports/d5zeqzo Claims that he's already paid what's owed, so I guess we shouldn't raise our pitchforks too quickly yet. Good to hear him say something at least. | ||
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On August 01 2016 21:16 Ctesias wrote: The only good result of this, as I can see it, is that Gumiho finally joins a proper Kespa team. I don't see how you get that from this at all. | ||
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G5
United States2919 Posts
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
On August 01 2016 20:50 SkilleX wrote: Let´s wait for a answer of Sbenou before we go too deep in this. Although i was also a follower of his twitter account and his champagne here, champagne there posts. Reminds me of a story Richard Lewis told in one of his shows. Some guy wanted to play the rich team owner and rent nice sports cars to drive up to tournaments... sad affair for GuMi :/ | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + king_sebou Hello it had been brought to my attention that i am the main concern of this post. First of all i would like to point out that in no way Invasion or me owe gumiho 5000+ extras. Gumiho and Invasion were under contract and there were very specifics. I'm currently reviewing conversations, payements made by me and contracts so i can be accurate. Because despite the fact that Gumiho was in Invasion at a 100%, they had to agree to take different paths as Kespa didn't allowed him to play Proleague while being in a foreign team for round 2 or 3. So we reach an understanding that i would and only me support him to go to events even though he was representing MVP 100% during Tours HSC Valencia. And during this time he was supported by me personally, we had different terms. I'm writing this quickly before reviewing all the conversations and contract to show that i'm not going anywhere. He made it public, i will by consequence reveal all publicly. www.reddit.com | ||
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
On August 01 2016 21:22 Elentos wrote: I don't see how you get that from this at all. Wishful thinking combined with care for Gumiho's well-being. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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oGoZenob
France1503 Posts
On August 01 2016 22:05 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Sebou made a longer reply on Reddit. He claims Choya actually owes him money to the tune of $6000 popcorn time ! | ||
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Ctesias
4595 Posts
On August 01 2016 22:05 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Sebou made a longer reply on Reddit. He claims Choya actually owes him money to the tune of $6000 The plot thickens. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On August 01 2016 22:05 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Sebou made a longer reply on Reddit. He claims Choya actually owes him money to the tune of $6000 Best defense is attack, amirite | ||
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Mier19891
United States75 Posts
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[16thSq] Kuro
1215 Posts
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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[16thSq] Kuro
1215 Posts
Legend spamming twitter a bit, someone show him tweetlonger  | ||
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SkilleX
2 Posts
Also "suprising" that Sbenou didnt think of the 6k he claims Choya owes him before. I dont know what to think of this drama, 6k is a lot of money and i dont think Sbenou only now found out that Choya owes him this amount of money. Dont want to judge yet tho. | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
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Zerg.Zilla
Hungary5029 Posts
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Yiome
China1687 Posts
On August 01 2016 22:42 Ctone23 wrote: This whole situation is about as clear as mud to me. A lot of statements but no real proof, I guess Choya felt he had no choice but to go public, but now it's turning into " 1: You owe me money.......... 2: NO YOU OWE ME MONEY!" Which although being horrible for people actually lost their money, is also a hilarious situation... *Grab popcorn* | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
On August 01 2016 22:18 [16thSq] Kuro wrote: https://twitter.com/Afreeca_Legend/status/760102161258729472 https://twitter.com/Afreeca_Legend/status/760102283921076224 https://twitter.com/Afreeca_Legend/status/760102348945403904 Legend spamming twitter a bit, someone show him tweetlonger Oh shit drg wasn't paid, now I'm pissed. | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
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banjoetheredskin
United States744 Posts
https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141808206647297 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141876913504256 | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
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banjoetheredskin
United States744 Posts
On August 02 2016 01:03 Thouhastmail wrote: So, Choya said hes gonna quit this scene. would you mind writing a rough translation? | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
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Siphyo
Netherlands121 Posts
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
On Saturday a CSGO team won a 1.4 million dollar prize pool, while playing on TBS live (major American TV station). All the while SC2 pros are having a hard time getting $5000 paid to them? what the actual fuck? | ||
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Durenas
Canada45 Posts
On August 02 2016 01:27 Durp wrote: 6 years ago I remember SC2 built the eSports scene from essentially nothing. On Saturday a CSGO team won a 1.4 million dollar prize pool, while playing on TBS live (major American TV station). All the while SC2 pros are having a hard time getting $5000 paid to them? what the actual fuck? Trust me, if shit like this happened in Korea, people would get arrested. Have been arrested. They take their Starcraft seriously there. | ||
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On August 02 2016 01:27 Durp wrote: 6 years ago I remember SC2 built the eSports scene from essentially nothing. On Saturday a CSGO team won a 1.4 million dollar prize pool, while playing on TBS live (major American TV station). All the while SC2 pros are having a hard time getting $5000 paid to them? what the actual fuck? Well when the game loses 90% of it's player base the pros tend to make less money. Also can we get rid of this myth that SC2 invented eSports in the west? | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13990 Posts
On August 02 2016 01:47 Solar424 wrote: Well when the game loses 90% of it's player base the pros tend to make less money. Also can we get rid of this myth that SC2 invented eSports in the west? I wouldnt say invent, rather popularize and revitalized. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On August 02 2016 01:27 Durp wrote: 6 years ago I remember SC2 built the eSports scene from essentially nothing. On Saturday a CSGO team won a 1.4 million dollar prize pool, while playing on TBS live (major American TV station). All the while SC2 pros are having a hard time getting $5000 paid to them? what the actual fuck? CS:GO was able to absorb the complete scene, pros and fans of CS 1.6 and CSS within a short period to have a healthy, non valve financed start. (The beginning was a bit hard, because the game had its issued, but valve fixed it pretty fast). SC II was never able to absorb its prior games scenes and fans (BW in Korea, Warcraft III and the smaller western BW scene) as much as CS:GO was able. The pros of Korea moved only 2 years later, leading to a stupid phase of x2 of teams and pros that could be supported by the scenes economy, the fans in Korea did never move fully to the new game, BW seems to be still more popular there, Warcraft III is even breathing fresh air in 2015 and 2016, pros return to stream and play Warcraft III instead of SC II just like Happy, Moon or Check. Ah and yeah, while Valve made flawed updates, broke things and fixed them and there is generally some problems within the game, the games concept has never been altered and is really the core of what is CS. Blizzard on the other hand tried to invet the wheel new but still used old names and thus old expectations. The game was nothing like its prior game, its a new game, its not a bad game, but its just nothing that BW was with all its changes. Later on, Blizzard changed the game way too often by patches and the 2 expansions, while CS:GO changed only pretty slightly and its core is still its core. Weapons got nerfed and buffed, round timer adjusted, people became mad, but it is still the very core of CS. While "Worker-Killing-on-Steroids" aka LotV is not what the core of SC has been. Just my cents to this. To the topic. Choya has to give me more to convince me, since his fake MLG callout (not understand american taxes), I dont trust him alot on financial matters. | ||
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
On August 02 2016 00:58 banjoetheredskin wrote: https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141739306782720 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141769262501892 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141808206647297 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141840481792001 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141876913504256 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141903979421697 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760142202781638656 If that isn't proof the guy is full of shit, I don't know what is. What a shame he seems to be French... | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lr1VOQt.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Hz8ALWV.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lnysXDM.png) source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vmcug/choya_claims/d5zsn7z | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:06 Clonester wrote: CS:GO was able to absorb the complete scene, pros and fans of CS 1.6 and CSS within a short period to have a healthy, non valve financed start. (The beginning was a bit hard, because the game had its issued, but valve fixed it pretty fast). SC II was never able to absorb its prior games scenes and fans (BW in Korea, Warcraft III and the smaller western BW scene) as much as CS:GO was able. The pros of Korea moved only 2 years later, leading to a stupid phase of x2 of teams and pros that could be supported by the scenes economy, the fans in Korea did never move fully to the new game, BW seems to be still more popular there, Warcraft III is even breathing fresh air in 2015 and 2016, pros return to stream and play Warcraft III instead of SC II just like Happy, Moon or Check. Ah and yeah, while Valve made flawed updates, broke things and fixed them and there is generally some problems within the game, the games concept has never been altered and is really the core of what is CS. Blizzard on the other hand tried to invet the wheel new but still used old names and thus old expectations. The game was nothing like its prior game, its a new game, its not a bad game, but its just nothing that BW was with all its changes. Later on, Blizzard changed the game way too often by patches and the 2 expansions, while CS:GO changed only pretty slightly and its core is still its core. Weapons got nerfed and buffed, round timer adjusted, people became mad, but it is still the very core of CS. While "Worker-Killing-on-Steroids" aka LotV is not what the core of SC has been. Just my cents to this. To the topic. Choya has to give me more to convince me, since his fake MLG callout (not understand american taxes), I dont trust him alot on financial matters. You also totally forget to mention how skins and betting increased the CS:GO immensely. And besides a few things, SC2 is slowly becoming more and more like broodwar. "While "Worker-Killing-on-Steroids" aka LotV is not what the core of SC has been." If your referring to broodwar I would like to point out that it had things like reaver drops, mutas, vultures, and any aggressive build would most likely kill tons of workers. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:11 sabas123 wrote: This entire thing is a becoming a giant mess. source: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vmcug/choya_claims/d5zsn7z Choya being choya... | ||
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Makro
France16890 Posts
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Penev
28504 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:21 Makro wrote: finally some drama We are in luck, there's one of the view botting kind as well Not as juicy as this tho obv | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:20 sabas123 wrote: You also totally forget to mention how skins and betting increased the CS:GO immensely. And besides a few things, SC2 is slowly becoming more and more like broodwar. "While "Worker-Killing-on-Steroids" aka LotV is not what the core of SC has been." If your referring to broodwar I would like to point out that it had things like reaver drops, mutas, vultures, and any aggressive build would most likely kill tons of workers. SC2 is nothing like BW at all. Maybe superficially, but if you watch a couple hours of BW and then a couple hours of SC2 you will realize its a completely different game. I agree with what Clonestar wrote. SC2 would have been way more popular if it was more like BW (from the feeling, not the technical difficulties). After all, there are still plenty of people interested in BW, there is even people left working on tools to make it more accessible. By the way, BW harassment did not kill tons of workers. Mutas dont kill many workers unless you dont know how to respond to them. They kill like maybe 4 or 5 if the Z is lucky. The same goes for Reaver drops. (if they hit at all) Probably the most worker kills come from Storm drops or Lurker drops but both come late in the game when you are on 3 or more bases. | ||
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WonnaPlay
Netherlands912 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:25 Penev wrote: We are in luck, there's one of the view botting kind as well Not as juicy as this tho obv Been a long time since there has been any SC2 drama. If you're interested in e-sports drama, I'd suggest you watch this recent CS:GO betting drama. It's been pretty fun to observe aswell : CS:GO Lotto (Richard Lewis) | ||
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Penev
28504 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:51 WonnaPlay wrote: Been a long time since there has been any SC2 drama. If you're interested in e-sports drama, I'd suggest you watch this recent CS:GO betting drama. It's been pretty fun to observe aswell : CS:GO Lotto (Richard Lewis) Appreciated but I already knew that one, the video where this Tmartin or something denies the allegations is golden tho | ||
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[16thSq] Kuro
1215 Posts
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Nerchio
Poland2633 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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JonnySC2
Germany119 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
ok... | ||
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DSK
England1110 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
Demuslim is a shitposter in wannabe programer form so until someone can corroborate, I'm not believing it. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:36 LongShot27 wrote: To clarify, that was originally posted by Sebou. Demuslim obviously doesn't like Choya though.Demuslim is a shitposter in wannabe programer form so until someone can corroborate, I'm not believing it. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
To be fair it really looks like the English is TOO bad to be Choya, and very easily falsified. No time stamps or any other way of proving it was an actual conversation | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:39 LongShot27 wrote: Sebou already said he paid in cash so... yeah. Nice way to not have any evidence...This can all be solved if they just show the check receipts btw. If either of them did this in cash without any form of documentation then fuck them both. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:40 bduddy wrote: To clarify, that was originally posted by Sebou. Demuslim obviously doesn't like Choya though. Yeah I looked up the "evidence". it's a tweet. from that guy. This is entering into the land of I dont give a fuck | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:44 bduddy wrote: Sebou already said he paid in cash so... yeah. Nice way to not have any evidence... Shit be mad cray yo. To quote my neighbors | ||
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Rocket-Bear
3070 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:44 bduddy wrote: Sebou already said he paid in cash so... yeah. Nice way to not have any evidence... Ah yes the classic $5000 exchanged into korean Won in cash. Because that's so much easier than just transfering online. Who seriously pays out in cash? No way he does that, no one is that stupid I refuse to believe. And the picture he posted looked photoshopped AF | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:46 Rocket-Bear wrote: Ah yes the classic $5000 exchanged into korean Won in cash. Because that's so much easier than just transfering online. Who seriously pays out in cash? No way he does that, no one is that stupid I refuse to believe. And the picture he posted looked photoshopped AF I make thousand dollar payments in cash, but I get a FUCKING RECEIPT | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:46 Rocket-Bear wrote: Ah yes the classic $5000 exchanged into korean Won in cash. Because that's so much easier than just transfering online. Who seriously pays out in cash? No way he does that, no one is that stupid I refuse to believe. And the picture he posted looked photoshopped AF Exactly. On one side we have Choya provided timestamped conversations and screenshots from his phone with Legend on his side saying roughly the same equivalent for SBENU. On the other we have a guy who claims to have paid in an untraceable way and providing random pictures that have no way of being proved to have actually taken place | ||
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Rocket-Bear
3070 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:47 LongShot27 wrote: I make thousand dollar payments in cash, but I get a FUCKING RECEIPT But you also don't have to change the currency. As if Gumiho wants dollars when he lives in Korea. That's useless to him. But yes I guess there are situations where you pay big amounts of money in cash. But this feels very "salary"ish so don't know why you would pay in cash. Especially to someone who has a different currency as well. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 03:49 Rocket-Bear wrote: But you also don't have to change the currency. As if Gumiho wants dollars when he lives in Korea. That's useless to him. But yes I guess there are situations where you pay big amounts of money in cash. But this feels very "salary"ish so don't know why you would pay in cash. Especially to someone who has a different currency as well. Actually most places in Korea take dollars, the military presence helps that. Just saying, but i know. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Demuslim isn't a credible person and it shows from his tweet of a photoshop. | ||
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
I think Legend is winning this fight | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/39o5per.jpg) | ||
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
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NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:01 NovemberstOrm wrote: DeMuslim jumped on the hate choya train real quick lmao. yeah it's confusing why he jumped all over this? | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:01 NovemberstOrm wrote: DeMuslim jumped on the hate choya train real quick lmao. When you lose to a coach on ladder that often, it gets to you. | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:02 Ctone23 wrote: yeah it's confusing why he jumped all over this? Choya probably proxied him in a ladder game or something | ||
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:02 stuchiu wrote: Choya probably proxied him in a ladder game or something Hey don't steal my thunder, lol | ||
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Penev
28504 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:03 NinjaToss wrote: As far as I'm concerned I don't see anyway DeMuslim is involved in this, so I'm going to take his opinion as a grain of salt he and that guy are related, or secretly lovers and he's just protecting his "bae" | ||
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NinjaToss
Austria1383 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:04 LongShot27 wrote: he and that guy are related, or secretly lovers and he's just protecting his "bae" ah that make perfect sense now Can you write a fanfic to prove your point tho? | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:05 NinjaToss wrote: ah that make perfect sense now Can you write a fanfic to prove your point tho? why write fanfic if it's true? | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:07 Thouhastmail wrote: Tho I`m on Choya`s side (as it seems more plausible), still he needs to do things more neatly - he should stop whining on SNS. dont be hatin' on entertainment | ||
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Rocket-Bear
3070 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:07 Thouhastmail wrote: Tho I`m on Choya`s side (as it seems more plausible), still he needs to do things more neatly - he should stop whining on SNS. Well he did try to solve it privately for quite a while from his skype convos. That didn't work out very well for him now did it? Going public about things makes the other party very quick to respond and try to resolve the situation. If you're ever stuck in a shitty customer support, go complain on their facebook feed and you will see how much faster they respond and try to treat you well. It's really stupid that it has to be this way but it's just the way it is. Bad publicity hurts a lot. If Choya jumped the gun going public instantly I would have agreed with you, but he tried to do it in private first for quite a while. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6660 Posts
Choya has time stamped conversations, Sebou/AngryDemu have a suspiciously photoshopped looking 'conversation' with no time stamps or anything. Choya has Legend on his side and evidence of previously shady shit, Sebou has a washed out ladder rage guy backing him up. Hmmm tough call on who to believe in this one boys... | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:12 Necro)Phagist( wrote: To summarize. Choya has time stamped conversations, Sebou/AngryDemu have a suspiciously photoshopped looking 'conversation' with no time stamps or anything. Choya has Legend on his side and evidence of previously shady shit, Sebou has a washed out ladder rage guy backing him up. Hmmm tough call on who to believe in this one boys... Hey man it has a picture of the MVP logo, it MUST be legit | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
Honestly, Choya is involved in so much scandal and running to twitter that I don't believe a word that comes out of that boys mouth. I'm willing to bet there's a very reasonable explanation, very few people I trust less in the Korean sc2 scene than him. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vklyy/gumiho_owed_over_5000_from_invasion_esports/d5zj955 Yes, going to twitter after 1 year has passed. Shows the kind of character demuslim is for knighting a conman. | ||
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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Kafka777
361 Posts
King_Sebou admits he owes some money to Choy/Gumiho, not clear amount but probably in the range of 3-4 thousand $, but dodges payment with very silly unprofessional excuses - eventually leading to this drama. Now making further excuses to dodge payment. Invasion Esports uses a non-profit scheme not to pay taxes on its income, which is fine - but does not realize (or misleads players that they do not have to pay taxes) that payments to players are taxed - in this case in France. Money taken from Invasion Esports by Sebou should be taxed at a 20-30% tax rate, same as any payouts to players (unless there is any deduction for foreign e-sports players - which I most certainly doubt). I wonder if any taxes were actually paid. | ||
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Penev
28504 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:25 Deathstar wrote: From demuslim: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vklyy/gumiho_owed_over_5000_from_invasion_esports/d5zj955 Yes, going to twitter after 1 year has passed. Shows the kind of character demuslim is for knighting a conman. Hang on, where's this scandals demuslim is talking about? We could have spin off drama! .. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:30 Koivusto wrote: I don't get the bash on Demu. He done something ? he does stuff like this to stir up shit, he's just a generally assholeish person | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
Good luck, Gumiho. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:34 HugoBallzak wrote: Really sucks that amazing players like Gumiho deal with this shit when not so good players outside of korea get to play in and win big money tournaments. Really kills the spirit of competition in this esport and and screws with its legitimacy. Good luck, Gumiho. We know he has a tough head, he'll be fine | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6660 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:30 Koivusto wrote: I don't get the bash on Demu. He done something ? It's clear he is just trying to get his name back out there right now, kinda being an attention whore for all the wrong reasons. Not to mention in general I've not heard a lot of favourable things about him in general. Not gonna lie, I'm a bit biased as I've never been a big demu fan and I do like Choya, but I think the facts and evidence here is pretty heavily in Choya's favour. So Demu coming out with this stuff now just seems like he's trying to stir shit up and get attention to himself. | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:31 LongShot27 wrote: he does stuff like this to stir up shit, he's just a generally assholeish person Not saying that I will straightaway jump on a bandwagon, but I've had quite a different idea about him during the years o.O | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:31 Penev wrote: Hang on, where's this scandals demuslim is talking about? We could have spin off drama! .. Perhaps it's a scandal to a drama queens but it wouldn't pass the drama-test for your average popcorn eaters. | ||
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:35 Necro)Phagist( wrote: It's clear he is just trying to get his name back out there right now, kinda being an attention whore for all the wrong reasons. Not to mention in general I've not heard a lot of favourable things about him in general. Not gonna lie, I'm a bit biased as I've never been a big demu fan and I do like Choya, but I think the facts and evidence here is pretty heavily in Choya's favour. So Demu coming out with this stuff now just seems like he's trying to stir shit up and get attention to himself. Demuslim probably planning on signing with invasion and sucking up whats left for his own bank account in exchange for the cheap attention he attracts. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:37 HugoBallzak wrote: Demuslim probably planning on signing with invasion and sucking up whats left for his own bank account in exchange for the cheap attention he attracts. I was just gonna say the day he leaves his team he starts doing this, how very....interersting. | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:38 LongShot27 wrote: I was just gonna say the day he leaves his team he starts doing this, how very....interersting. I`d rather believe that Choya and Demu were once a lover. | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:41 Koivusto wrote: Sadly it will be. Sebou seems to have done a pretty good job of insulating himself.In any case, I'm just gonna be really fucking sad if the end result is "everything was carried out in cash thus no evidence" or "suing will cost us more so we won't do anything" ... If fraud is the case. | ||
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:40 Thouhastmail wrote: I`d rather believe that Choya and Demu were once a lover. I could totally see this. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
LOL? Is this a manager saying hey, send my player, but if he wins anything take his money? Sorry, but Choya sounds like an ass hat, and he's honestly been an ass hat for a long time -- I said this in the other thread regarding the issue, Choya is not a trust worthy person and will do anything to fuck over anyone. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vmcug/choya_claims/d5zt0mn Demuslim basically saying "please put me on your team sebou, no other team wants me." | ||
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OrangeGarage
Korea (South)319 Posts
But Choya moved on.... To who? Marineking! It all fits! On a serious note, if I had to bet I would definitely go with Choya. Just generally more stable(lol Choya stable) proof. Also, the fact that Sebou owes Gumiho at least SOME money, but hasn't paid for a year, harms much of his credibility | ||
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TelecoM
United States10684 Posts
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
Also, the fact that Sebou owes Gumiho at least SOME money, but hasn't paid for a year, harms much of his credibility i agree totally | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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HsDLTitich
Italy830 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:54 Deathstar wrote: Demuslim: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vmcug/choya_claims/d5zt0mn Demuslim basically saying "please put me on your team sebou, no other team wants me." lol there's Destiny too, interesting combo. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:34 LongShot27 wrote: We know he has a tough head, he'll be fine Hahaha, nice one. | ||
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Penev
28504 Posts
On August 02 2016 05:20 Koivusto wrote: Wow, my new favorite insult is "ass hat" haha When I insult someone from now on, I will do it "in koreans" Not sure how it actually works yet but it will come to me | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:30 Koivusto wrote: I don't get the bash on Demu. He done something ? Putting your nose in shit that you're not involved in in the first place is a good way to get bashed on. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On August 02 2016 05:45 OtherWorld wrote: Putting your nose in shit that you're not involved in in the first place is a good way to get bashed on. Ya I mean it's not like us | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On topic: How is esports ever gonna get serious if ppl fuck each other over 5k$?? This is kinda pathetic. If there was a crowdfunding project Id send dollers to Gumiho cause he's hype as hell. | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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SC2FeaR1
19 Posts
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cha0
Canada507 Posts
On August 02 2016 06:36 SC2FeaR1 wrote: I just want to say one thing to this whole discussion... Sebou isnt very poor so stealing 5k for him doesnt make a whole lot of sense also hes one of the guys who does the most for the foreign sc2 team scene... he supports one of the best teams out there and everyone in invasion seems very happy. I can't comment on choya but sebou is very passionate and very honorable! I got to know him 1 year ago and since then I have never seen him disappoint anyone. Please reconsider before you hate and why is no one even listing the fact that he paid ppl out of his own pocket just because he likes to support them? Gumiho wasnt even on the team so please just let them sort everything out and dont throw alot of hate for no reason to either demuslim who is just presenting his opinion or sebou for doing great things for the scene so far! Hi, nice to meet you shill. | ||
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BretZ
United States1510 Posts
On August 02 2016 06:36 SC2FeaR1 wrote: I just want to say one thing to this whole discussion... Sebou isnt very poor so stealing 5k for him doesnt make a whole lot of sense also hes one of the guys who does the most for the foreign sc2 team scene... he supports one of the best teams out there and everyone in invasion seems very happy. I can't comment on choya but sebou is very passionate and very honorable! I got to know him 1 year ago and since then I have never seen him disappoint anyone. Please reconsider before you hate and why is no one even listing the fact that he paid ppl out of his own pocket just because he likes to support them? Gumiho wasnt even on the team so please just let them sort everything out and dont throw alot of hate for no reason to either demuslim who is just presenting his opinion or sebou for doing great things for the scene so far! i know where the 5k went | ||
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Ve5pa
United Kingdom252 Posts
It might be time to throw in the towel on this one | ||
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iamkaokao
108 Posts
On August 02 2016 06:36 SC2FeaR1 wrote: I just want to say one thing to this whole discussion... Sebou isnt very poor so stealing 5k for him doesnt make a whole lot of sense also hes one of the guys who does the most for the foreign sc2 team scene... he supports one of the best teams out there and everyone in invasion seems very happy. I can't comment on choya but sebou is very passionate and very honorable! I got to know him 1 year ago and since then I have never seen him disappoint anyone. Please reconsider before you hate and why is no one even listing the fact that he paid ppl out of his own pocket just because he likes to support them? Gumiho wasnt even on the team so please just let them sort everything out and dont throw alot of hate for no reason to either demuslim who is just presenting his opinion or sebou for doing great things for the scene so far! if he is rich or nice is irrelevant the fact is that gumiho hasn't been paid | ||
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SC2FeaR1
19 Posts
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:23 Ve5pa wrote: Hmm really sad that Gumiho hasn't been paid for over a year, and it doesn't look like he'll ever get paid. It might be time to throw in the towel on this one Well done. | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:31 SC2FeaR1 wrote: You guys have no clue about the situation theres 2 ppl making statements and you just have to wait for whatever comes out of it but all this stupid hate on either choya sebou or for some reason demuslim ???? Is pointless and stupid imo just wanted to make that clear! Demuslim got hate for hating on Choya for no reason. Also Choya is backed up by Legend (coach of another Proleague team) who says he has a similar situation going on with Invasion, so it's not just 2 people. Besides, the odds that anything comes out of this at all are low. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:36 Elentos wrote: Demuslim got hate for hating on Choya for no reason. Also Choya is backed up by Legend (coach of another Proleague team) who says he has a similar situation going on with Invasion, so it's not just 2 people. Besides, the odds that anything comes out of this at all are low. i mean demuslim isnt the only one not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" | ||
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote: i mean demuslim isnt the only one https://twitter.com/Rif_kingz/status/760194273262247936 not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" I don't think Choya gave him a good reason to call him an ass hat. | ||
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[16thSq] Kuro
1215 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote: i mean demuslim isnt the only one https://twitter.com/Rif_kingz/status/760194273262247936 not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" I think the problem with Demuslim is that his comments seemed aggressive from the start, not just sharing experience/opinion. | ||
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Penev
28504 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:35 stuchiu wrote: Savior was making hundreds of thousands of dollars, doesn't make sense he'd be involved in matchfixing. Everyone I've heard talk about him say he is passionate and honorable. I wanna go full Romanian on your ass but I got nothing damn | ||
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Elentos
55560 Posts
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote: i mean demuslim isnt the only one https://twitter.com/Rif_kingz/status/760194273262247936 not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" "Sebou only does generous and nice things" aside from conning players of their money. How convenient of rifkin to leave out the factor that goes against his initial position. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors thought he was a nice and generous guy who participated in many charities and volunteer organizations. Except for the other stuff Jeffrey did. | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:55 Deathstar wrote: "Sebou only does generous and nice things" aside from conning players of their money. How convenient of rifkin to leave out the factor that goes against his initial position. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors thought he was a nice and generous guy who participated in many charities and volunteer organizations. Except for the other stuff Jeffrey did. I imagine g2a was also nice and generous to work with. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:55 Deathstar wrote: "Sebou only does generous and nice things" aside from conning players of their money. How convenient of rifkin to leave out the factor that goes against his initial position. I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbors thought he was a nice and generous guy who participated in many charities and volunteer organizations. Except for the other stuff Jeffrey did. oh yeah ive no fuckin idea, i just saw people piledriving demuslim for an off-handed comment im assuming he made thinking the logs were real, and it seemed like such a dumb distraction from the real issue | ||
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
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Kafka777
361 Posts
Interesting.. surely both sides cant both be telling the truth on this issue As it is certain that Sebou still owed money to Choy/Gumiho after 15 months - he does not look good in this whatever else he has done. Besides, Invasion E-sport should not have paid out Gumiho's prize money to Sebou. This is outright illegal. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:58 stuchiu wrote: I imagine g2a was also nice and generous to work with. This is why I take nothing BASETRADETV says anymore seriously | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On August 02 2016 08:27 Kafka777 wrote: As it is certain that Sebou still owed money to Choy/Gumiho after 15 months - he does not look good in this whatever else he has done. Besides, Invasion E-sport should not have paid out Gumiho's prize money to Sebou. This is outright illegal. In the time Gumiho earned that 5k dollars, he wasnt even part of Invasion E-Sport. Sebou says he payed Gumihos flights to EU out of his own pocket because he wanted to support him. But is save that he has not been under Invasion contract, as KESPA forced Gumiho to be soly under MVP contract. As Sebou is the owner of the Invasion time, that might become quite confusing, but there has been no contract in this, as Gumhio was not part of Invasion during that time. More like some guys talked something over, did it, and when they remember what they said, they come up with two different versions. The given lines by Choya never tell us, what was said by Choya/Sebou in the first place (will Sebous lines dont look really legit and cant be used as anything evidential). And that what would matter the first place. But I am not really neutral on this, the Choya-MLG story always branded Choya for me as someone stupid who calls out online instead of thinking things through, as also calling someone with "hey fuck guy" and ending it with "you delusional cunt" makes me believing him. I guess that will ran in the soild, good for Invasion, that the scenes are disconnected anyway and his players will not really suffer from this, well, if they get paid, which I think they do, or else players like Lambo or Harstem would have left I guess. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 02 2016 08:01 Aocowns wrote: oh yeah ive no fuckin idea, i just saw people piledriving demuslim for an off-handed comment im assuming he made thinking the logs were real, and it seemed like such a dumb distraction from the real issue well the "real issue" in these cases usually amounts to a bunch fo people arguing for 2-4 weeks until someone makes an official announcement about the situation or it just fades away so i mean what is the "real issue" for us to discuss? it's the same thing as matchfixing threads. people choose who to believe and start yelling | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
I guess that will ran in the soild, good for Invasion, that the scenes are disconnected anyway and his players will not really suffer from this, well, if they get paid, which I think they do, or else players like Lambo or Harstem would have left I guess These are not disconnected. Sebou recieved full 5000$ Gumiho prize money {without tax} - that is only possible if the money was funneled through Invasion esport - which was send to them on fraudulant basis in the first place , if the contract was void. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
Where is the proof on both sides? All I see is mud flinging and other figures chiming in. tbh I don't know what exactly is going on because I will not wade through this pile of shit to find the truth, even if you gave me the most amazing blowjob ever. All I see is twitter comments and reddit links with both sides saying contradictory things (no surprise there). Could a kind TLer please sum up any proof provide by either side? | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 09:14 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: This shit is getting ridiculous. Where is the proof on both sides? All I see is mud flinging and other figures chiming in. tbh I don't know what exactly is going on because I will not wade through this pile of shit to find the truth, even if you gave me the most amazing blowjob ever. All I see is twitter comments and reddit links with both sides saying contradictory things (no surprise there). Could a kind TLer please sum up any proof provide by either side? Choya has time stamped conversations and the backing of another coach. The invasion guy has poorly photo-shopped conversations and the backing of a known shitposter TLDR | ||
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n3p
93 Posts
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:58 stuchiu wrote: I imagine g2a was also nice and generous to work with. Savage. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
A time-stamped conversation is a good start, but more proof is still necessary. Contracts or receipts would be a good start, as well as more correspondence between the two parties. Any emails that went back/forth? Backing of another coach is not proof. Is the 'poorly photo-shopped conversation' really photoshopped? What proof that it is a fake? Backing of a known shitposter might discredit Invasion (et. al) but that isn't proof against them. I am trying to remain unbiased, and I hope others try to. We can't jump to conclusions (even though I would love to be on Gumiho's side cuz he is the fucking Towel Terran). Also, this shit is getting boring. It was interesting when Quantic screwed Hyun, and the drama ensued with other teams, but its getting played out now. Guys, get a fucking contract. Don't rely on someone's word, because words can be misinterpreted. edit: and lets stop with the fundraising to bail out these guys... I know it sucks that he is screwed over, but if we keep bailing out our progamers, they will never learn to protect themselves. | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
Could a kind TLer please sum up any proof provide by either side? Sebou admited in his own reddit post he believed he owed some money to Choy/Gumiho. This is 15 months late. Sebou added that since this has gone public - really arrangments were different and its Choy who owes him money. Choy's posts suggest he demanded payment multiple times but was refuted by some nonsensical excuses. If any of the posts presented are true - there has been criminal activities going on, based on tax evasion and criminal charges could be filed on all persons involved. I especially worry about Harstem who should take care about making his tax statements for 2016. | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
Seriously, you need more than just what people say here. Though, I'm inclined to believe Choya / Legend more than Invasion guy simply because it's Invasion, and because some of the chat logs are embarrassing for the Invasion guy. Seriously, some of the excuses are just ridiculous. Oh well, poor SC2 scene. | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2630 Posts
On August 02 2016 09:35 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Thanks LongShot, but judging by the tone in your word choice, you seem biased against Invasion (et. al). A time-stamped conversation is a good start, but more proof is still necessary. Contracts or receipts would be a good start, as well as more correspondence between the two parties. Any emails that went back/forth? Backing of another coach is not proof. Is the 'poorly photo-shopped conversation' really photoshopped? What proof that it is a fake? Backing of a known shitposter might discredit Invasion (et. al) but that isn't proof against them. I am trying to remain unbiased, and I hope others try to. We can't jump to conclusions (even though I would love to be on Gumiho's side cuz he is the fucking Towel Terran). Also, this shit is getting boring. It was interesting when Quantic screwed Hyun, and the drama ensued with other teams, but its getting played out now. Guys, get a fucking contract. Don't rely on someone's word, because words can be misinterpreted. edit: and lets stop with the fundraising to bail out these guys... I know it sucks that he is screwed over, but if we keep bailing out our progamers, they will never learn to protect themselves. I believe Legend posted a screenshot of the contract a few pages back. From what I understand of the info I've gotten, both sides have different stories. Choya posted screenshots of his convo with Sebou where Sebou had excuses of credit card/paypal not working. Sebou posted stories where he paid in cash already. Because Choya's screenshots had time logged (and that I don't believe Choya's English is good enough for him to fake it), I heavily favor Choya's argument here. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
So both parties agreed that money is owed. Now we have one side saying "I paid" while other said "Gimme my money". I still can't choose a side, but at least I have a better understanding. edit: @Kafka Well I'm not surprised if illegal activities are going on, but that seems to be separate from the current issue (although it might have an impact). | ||
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DisillusionedAcronym
190 Posts
On August 02 2016 08:34 LongShot27 wrote: This is why I take nothing BASETRADETV says anymore seriously did you before? :-D | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 02 2016 09:35 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Thanks LongShot, but judging by the tone in your word choice, you seem biased against Invasion (et. al). A time-stamped conversation is a good start, but more proof is still necessary. Contracts or receipts would be a good start, as well as more correspondence between the two parties. Any emails that went back/forth? Backing of another coach is not proof. Is the 'poorly photo-shopped conversation' really photoshopped? What proof that it is a fake? Backing of a known shitposter might discredit Invasion (et. al) but that isn't proof against them. I am trying to remain unbiased, and I hope others try to. We can't jump to conclusions (even though I would love to be on Gumiho's side cuz he is the fucking Towel Terran). Also, this shit is getting boring. It was interesting when Quantic screwed Hyun, and the drama ensued with other teams, but its getting played out now. Guys, get a fucking contract. Don't rely on someone's word, because words can be misinterpreted. edit: and lets stop with the fundraising to bail out these guys... I know it sucks that he is screwed over, but if we keep bailing out our progamers, they will never learn to protect themselves. In this case it doesn't matter if you have a contract. The sum that is in play means that if you get actual lawyers to hold someone to the contract you are losing out on thousands more dollars. | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2630 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:05 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Ok thanks Brutaxilos. So both parties agreed that money is owed. Now we have one side saying "I paid" while other said "Gimme my money". I still can't choose a side, but at least I have a better understanding. edit: @Kafka Well I'm not surprised if illegal activities are going on, but that seems to be separate from the current issue (although it might have an impact). The funny thing is, Sebou is now claiming that Choya and Gumiho owe him $6000. Which just makes his argument seem even worse. He'd either be lying or just doesn't know how to handle his finances. Both of which make him seem more guilty here. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 09:35 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Thanks LongShot, but judging by the tone in your word choice, you seem biased against Invasion (et. al). A time-stamped conversation is a good start, but more proof is still necessary. Contracts or receipts would be a good start, as well as more correspondence between the two parties. Any emails that went back/forth? Backing of another coach is not proof. Is the 'poorly photo-shopped conversation' really photoshopped? What proof that it is a fake? Backing of a known shitposter might discredit Invasion (et. al) but that isn't proof against them. I am trying to remain unbiased, and I hope others try to. We can't jump to conclusions (even though I would love to be on Gumiho's side cuz he is the fucking Towel Terran). Also, this shit is getting boring. It was interesting when Quantic screwed Hyun, and the drama ensued with other teams, but its getting played out now. Guys, get a fucking contract. Don't rely on someone's word, because words can be misinterpreted. edit: and lets stop with the fundraising to bail out these guys... I know it sucks that he is screwed over, but if we keep bailing out our progamers, they will never learn to protect themselves. It's almost like I said they should both have receipts, oh wait... | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
I watched way back when it was Doom, Rifkin, me and 20 other people so yeah I believed. But then when they shady business practices, tip jar and sponsors showed up I cried a bit. | ||
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iamkaokao
108 Posts
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Kafka777
361 Posts
So both parties agreed that money is owed. Now we have one side saying "I paid" while other said "Gimme my money". I still can't choose a side, but at least I have a better understanding. No, Sebou doesn't claim he paid all. In fact he claims he could not pay coz he could not meet Choy coz he was "drunk" and/or will not pay coz arrangements were different. But allows Choy to employ lawyers in Switzerland and go to court over there. All I can say, Mr. Sebou is bluffing and he is in deeeeeep shit. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:10 stuchiu wrote: In this case it doesn't matter if you have a contract. The sum that is in play means that if you get actual lawyers to hold someone to the contract you are losing out on thousands more dollars. Yeah true, with such a small sum, getting lawyers involved would cost you more out of pocket. | ||
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OrangeGarage
Korea (South)319 Posts
On August 02 2016 07:41 Aocowns wrote: i mean demuslim isnt the only one https://twitter.com/Rif_kingz/status/760194273262247936 not saying that as if it definitely makes sebou the victim here or whatever or that demu wasnt dumb to chime in, but it doesnt sound like it's "for no reason" Highly doubt Rifkin & Choya ever could converse properly and be best buddies cracking jokes(but tbh Rifkin's jokes tend to be bad so it might worsen the situation) with the amount of language gap between them. If Choya's lack of cordial conversation and constant money nagging sounds selfish and greedy, sure. He's just trying to talk business because that's hard enough with his limited english. People say Poohsik(TCM) is greedy too, but he just tries to make sure his guys, who don't know anything but how to play Starcraft, get their money. Again, no specific event given by Rifkin to demonstrate the personality, don't know what to think. I left this out because it felt I would be called for biased opinion, but- I had the great fortune to go look around Hungryapp studios during Choya's protoss tutorial(thanks to my cousin lol), and Choya was a great guy. Relaxed and funny, cracked me up a few times, said hi to everybody, and really cared about his team. Only problem I could see(from past posts on SGall and stuff, not the studio) was that he was very protective of his team, which might not be good in diplomatic situations. This is also the reason(other than questionable photoshop traces) why I believe the skype thing is fake. In my opinion, Choya won't go all "yeah man just take Gumiho's money, I didn't even talk to him or anything, y'know, much happy we got this sorted out" TL:DR: Rifkin can't speak korean so he sucks at Starcraft. | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
In this case it doesn't matter if you have a contract. The sum that is in play means that if you get actual lawyers to hold someone to the contract you are losing out on thousands more dollars Not necessarily. Lawyers are available for a percentage of money awarded. You can claim damages for fraud. All in all you can get back your money with a bonus and the lawyer will be fat. | ||
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:35 Kafka777 wrote: Percentage lawyers don't work on $5000 cases, and claiming extra damages is very difficult. Please don't talk about things you have no clue about.Not necessarily. Lawyers are available for a percentage of money awarded. You can claim damages for fraud. All in all you can get back your money with a bonus and the lawyer will be fat. I would love for Rifkin to clarify what he means by "greedy". Demanding full payment immediately? Should be the norm.... | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2630 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:19 Kafka777 wrote: No, Sebou doesn't claim he paid all. In fact he claims he could not pay coz he could not meet Choy coz he was "drunk" and/or will not pay coz arrangements were different. But allows Choy to employ lawyers in Switzerland and go to court over there. All I can say, Mr. Sebou is bluffing and he is in deeeeeep shit. Unrelated, but why do you abbreviate Choya to be just Choy? Is that extra 'a' too much effort, or is this some nickname that I just don't know about? | ||
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:35 Kafka777 wrote: Not necessarily. Lawyers are available for a percentage of money awarded. You can claim damages for fraud. All in all you can get back your money with a bonus and the lawyer will be fat. so a lawyer is gonna waste tens of hours to get some hundreds of dollars for this? Here's a link to the only esportslawy guy out there doing this sort of work. States the economics don't make taking up this case viable. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vmg6q/legend_exsbenuafreeca_coach_talks_about_invasion/d600z7l | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
so a lawyer is gonna waste tens of hours to get some hundreds of dollars for this? Here's a link to the only esportslawy guy out there doing this sort of work. States the economics don't make taking up this case viable. Depends which country you employ the lawyer my friend. The case is not within Switzerland authority anyway:-) | ||
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OrangeGarage
Korea (South)319 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:59 Kafka777 wrote: Depends which country you employ the lawyer my friend. The case is not within Switzerland authority anyway:-) Problem here is that you need a lawyer that can speak both Korean and German/English, which is rare, expensive, and not out for those percentage claims. Sebou knows that so he can be boldfaced. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:16 LongShot27 wrote: I watched way back when it was Doom, Rifkin, me and 20 other people so yeah I believed. But then when they shady business practices, tip jar and sponsors showed up I cried a bit. god forbid they make a living out of it... this is one of the main problems with the sc2 scene. Remember a few summers back when Destiny busted out this sick online tourney with kespa koreans and shit? he never did it again cause kids were breaking his balls about where the money was going and how much he got from xyz sponsor... People are entitled to make a living out of their hard work. Especially when they are passionate about sc2... | ||
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Kafka777
361 Posts
Problem here is that you need a lawyer that can speak both Korean and German/English, which is rare, expensive, and not out for those percentage claims. Sebou knows that so he can be boldfaced. Sebou is fucked if anyone tells any tax office to check what he is doing. Trust me, there are ways to get satisfaction. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On August 02 2016 11:07 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: god forbid they make a living out of it... this is one of the main problems with the sc2 scene. Remember a few summers back when Destiny busted out this sick online tourney with kespa koreans and shit? he never did it again cause kids were breaking his balls about where the money was going and how much he got from xyz sponsor... People are entitled to make a living out of their hard work. Especially when they are passionate about sc2... In light of recent events viewbotting, gambling, match fixing/manipulation, and the way sponsorship works for many streamers who have gambling site and g2a and other related sponsors, we have seen the craven and degenerate underbelly of many esports personalities who are desperate for the extra cent. People are entitled to make a living out of their work and if it goes out of line of acceptable behavior, they'll be called out on it. Passion is just a punch line for people who manipulate the base to make money. This Sebou character is among many who have screwed over sc2 players and kind/generous viewers in order to make the extra cent. If you want to talk about passion, talk about the guy who consistently writes articles for free or the people in bw who cast while working their own FT job. When the goal of money enters the room passion is about as honest as all the people in job interviews who are very passionate about whatever job they are applying for. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 01 2016 21:19 LongShot27 wrote: You still have to pay taxes it's just taxed differently. Instead of an "award/winnings/bonus" whatever they call it in each country tax. If your organization who is your employer pays you it just goes under income tax which for most people in most places will be lower than taking it directly. And the organization has to pay tax when they receive it so usually the roughly same amount of money is taken out in taxes, you've just created a middle man, who often in this case just takes everything. It's a myth that there's a higher winnings / bonus tax than simple income tax, at least in the United States. If this were truly the case, people would just request increased salaries (for a temporary time) in order to obtain the increased income. Bonuses are taxed no different than ordinary income, same with other awards / winnings, such as the lottery. More may be withheld originally, which may make it seem less, but you get it back when you file your taxes. | ||
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zyce
United States649 Posts
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 02 2016 11:35 FabledIntegral wrote: It's a myth that there's a higher winnings / bonus tax than simple income tax, at least in the United States. If this were truly the case, people would just request increased salaries (for a temporary time) in order to obtain the increased income. Bonuses are taxed no different than ordinary income, same with other awards / winnings, such as the lottery. More may be withheld originally, which may make it seem less, but you get it back when you file your taxes. Except when you win money in the united states and live in a foreign country? Are you getting it now? | ||
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CometNine
New Zealand87 Posts
Quite Frankly, this case is too small to be worth anyone's time. I think nearly every Lawyer that is qualified to look into this dispute will charge more than the money that's missing. If something like this happened in New Zealand - you'd go to what we call the disputes tribunal to handle cases that are under NZD$15,000 (or NZD$20,000 if both parties agree to it). I imagine that both Switzerland and Korea have something similar in place to handle small monetary disputes. Besides, given the pictures we've seen - I highly doubt that either side has contracts that will hold up in a court. ----- FireCake mentioned earlier in the thread about why players choose their teams/organisations to receive the money on their behalf. I think I can answer that from a Taxation point of view (as I work as a Tax Accountant that specialises in filing Resident Tax returns with foreign Income). If the eSports organisations like Dreamhack or IEM pays the prize money directly to the winners then they might be liable to pay a form Withholding Tax (WT) to their respective Tax Department (in the native country) before paying a net amount to winner. By Dreamhack paying the winnings to an organisation (like a team) there's probably a way to bypass this WT requirement (company to company transactions are seen as "business transactions" and any "profits" are taxed once the Operating Profit for said company is calculated) so the team receives the entire gross payment of prize money. The team then pays their Player in the form of a bonus or extra payment with the correct amount of Tax Deducted in the Player's Home country. This way there's less work for the player involved when it comes to calculating the tax that they need to pay at the end of the tax year and worry about double taxation agreements between countries, what's available as tax credits in the player's resident country and so forth. Also there's potential for Tax Credits to get lost if the WT deductions are higher than the Player's Home Country's Tax rate. Here in NZ the WT tax rate is higher than our lowest PAYE/PAYG Salary Tax rate. If anyone is interested, I can provide a detailed example of the benefits of having money go through a company as opposed to a person for tax purposes. Just let me know somewhere below or PM me. ----- In light of all of this, I hope that Harstem doesn't get caught out with any tax issues given the shady stuff we've caught glimpses today. I think the original agreements were done in Good Faith but Sebou is probably too young, too inexperienced and never thought through his decisions with the Korean Teams / Personnel. Maybe he was one overly enthusiastic fan that bit off more than he could chew. Sadly though, this seems like another Quantic/LYGF episode...  I don't know much about the Choya/MLG thing - but I think he should have been a bit more cautious after that incident especially with foreign money. For those of you that say Choya is greedy - try to remember he's running an organisation. He needs to pay his players, cover household costs and its no secret that MVP lack significant sponsors to comfortably cover all of this. Put yourself in his shoes and think about how, you would feel if you had employees that you couldn't pay and that you deeply cared about them? | ||
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redviper
Pakistan2333 Posts
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sc2chronic
United States777 Posts
On August 02 2016 08:12 coL.hendralisk wrote: Interesting.. surely both sides cant both be telling the truth on this issue something def seems off... on a side note, where the hell have you been?? | ||
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
Been on a break since I lost to drunkenboi for a wcs qualifier I think, early 2015 damn time flies | ||
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PharaphobiaSC
Czech Republic457 Posts
On August 02 2016 14:49 coL.hendralisk wrote: School, csgo, overwatch in that order Been on a break since I lost to drunkenboi for a wcs qualifier I think, early 2015 damn time flies I honestly miss your SC2 stream tbh ( But gl with school! | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On August 02 2016 13:06 LongShot27 wrote: Except when you win money in the united states and live in a foreign country? Are you getting it now? As in, they pretend they never won the money and just get paid salary elsewhere? Illegal and wouldn't hold up for a second in court, but if that's the insinuation, I do imagine it would be incredibly hard to track or pursue by the IRS. Perhaps even in the same bucket as "pay sales tax for items you order online Newegg" (assuming you don't live in CA or NJ that actually charge it upfront). | ||
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sc2chronic
United States777 Posts
On August 02 2016 14:49 coL.hendralisk wrote: School, csgo, overwatch in that order Been on a break since I lost to drunkenboi for a wcs qualifier I think, early 2015 damn time flies cool. i enjoyed watching u play and will watch again if u ever decide to return. gl in life! | ||
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kurosu_
France46 Posts
On August 02 2016 08:34 LongShot27 wrote: This is why I take nothing BASETRADETV says anymore seriously Hi, although this is off-topic, could you please elaborate, e.g. through pm? I've heard shady stuff about g2a (stolen keys reselling, used for money laundering - but no idea how actively g2a tries to benefit from it or if it's a by-product), but my main concern is that a lot of streamers/organizations (like French O'Gaming) have deals with g2a. Is there, and of what kind, explicit pressure exacted besides the usual, contractual, sponsoring clauses? I mean, it's one thing to dislike personalities/behaviours - that seems to be the case in this thread for Rifkin and Demuslim - but if it's due to borderline activities, that's more worrying. | ||
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lestye
United States4186 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:35 Kafka777 wrote: Not necessarily. Lawyers are available for a percentage of money awarded. You can claim damages for fraud. All in all you can get back your money with a bonus and the lawyer will be fat. That's not likely. This isnt the type of case that is going to be lucrative for contingency fees. The BEST BEST case scenario is the lawyer gets rewarded attorney's fees. The whole point of attorney's fees is to inventicize attorneys taking on work thats not lucrative but still pursuing some justice for low-stakes stuff. That being said, international law, this might just be a huge clusterfuck not worth anyone's time. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 01 2016 18:02 KappaKingPrime wrote: Has Harstem received HomeStory Cup prize money? Not yet - had a few busy days but he received a document he can fill in (bank account etc) and we will obviously pay to him and only him as soon as we get the document back  | ||
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On August 02 2016 18:12 NarutO wrote: Not yet - had a few busy days but he received a document he can fill in (bank account etc) and we will obviously pay to him and only him as soon as we get the document back Thanks for your transparency, can't have enough of that. | ||
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olimoley
United States742 Posts
On August 02 2016 08:34 LongShot27 wrote: This is why I take nothing BASETRADETV says anymore seriously Please don't mistake Rifkin's words for everyone on BaseTradeTV. | ||
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[16thSq] Kuro
1215 Posts
On August 02 2016 18:25 Olli wrote: Thanks for your transparency, can't have enough of that. Yeah, always nice to see Naruto posting organization updates. | ||
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SuperHofmann
Italy1741 Posts
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
On August 02 2016 19:58 SuperHofmann wrote: can someone update the op ? can't find infos in 200+ posts yeah it would be nice to Update OP this is kinda crazy we need a first look with the most important infos in the OP | ||
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On August 02 2016 13:13 CometNine wrote: Re: Lawyers...hahaha. Quite Frankly, this case is too small to be worth anyone's time. I think nearly every Lawyer that is qualified to look into this dispute will charge more than the money that's missing. If something like this happened in New Zealand - you'd go to what we call the disputes tribunal to handle cases that are under NZD$15,000 (or NZD$20,000 if both parties agree to it). I imagine that both Switzerland and Korea have something similar in place to handle small monetary disputes. Besides, given the pictures we've seen - I highly doubt that either side has contracts that will hold up in a court. ----- FireCake mentioned earlier in the thread about why players choose their teams/organisations to receive the money on their behalf. I think I can answer that from a Taxation point of view (as I work as a Tax Accountant that specialises in filing Resident Tax returns with foreign Income). If the eSports organisations like Dreamhack or IEM pays the prize money directly to the winners then they might be liable to pay a form Withholding Tax (WT) to their respective Tax Department (in the native country) before paying a net amount to winner. By Dreamhack paying the winnings to an organisation (like a team) there's probably a way to bypass this WT requirement (company to company transactions are seen as "business transactions" and any "profits" are taxed once the Operating Profit for said company is calculated) so the team receives the entire gross payment of prize money. The team then pays their Player in the form of a bonus or extra payment with the correct amount of Tax Deducted in the Player's Home country. This way there's less work for the player involved when it comes to calculating the tax that they need to pay at the end of the tax year and worry about double taxation agreements between countries, what's available as tax credits in the player's resident country and so forth. Also there's potential for Tax Credits to get lost if the WT deductions are higher than the Player's Home Country's Tax rate. Here in NZ the WT tax rate is higher than our lowest PAYE/PAYG Salary Tax rate. If anyone is interested, I can provide a detailed example of the benefits of having money go through a company as opposed to a person for tax purposes. Just let me know somewhere below or PM me. ----- In light of all of this, I hope that Harstem doesn't get caught out with any tax issues given the shady stuff we've caught glimpses today. I think the original agreements were done in Good Faith but Sebou is probably too young, too inexperienced and never thought through his decisions with the Korean Teams / Personnel. Maybe he was one overly enthusiastic fan that bit off more than he could chew. Sadly though, this seems like another Quantic/LYGF episode... I don't know much about the Choya/MLG thing - but I think he should have been a bit more cautious after that incident especially with foreign money. For those of you that say Choya is greedy - try to remember he's running an organisation. He needs to pay his players, cover household costs and its no secret that MVP lack significant sponsors to comfortably cover all of this. Put yourself in his shoes and think about how, you would feel if you had employees that you couldn't pay and that you deeply cared about them? Makes me wonder if it would make sense for a reliable, long-standing organisation like TL or other big teams to provide payment to players without a reliable team for a reasonable fee. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
On August 02 2016 04:12 Necro)Phagist( wrote: To summarize. Choya has time stamped conversations, Sebou/AngryDemu have a suspiciously photoshopped looking 'conversation' with no time stamps or anything. Choya has Legend on his side and evidence of previously shady shit, Sebou has a washed out ladder rage guy backing him up. Hmmm tough call on who to believe in this one boys... this must be part of the OP http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=ca0acebecc8bb7c9ab996940c4a1c7216ae2f320.55003 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141876913504256 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141808206647297 https://twitter.com/MVPChoya/status/760141634629570560 the amount of excuses to not pay. incredible. | ||
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realityyy
Germany50 Posts
On August 02 2016 18:42 olimoley wrote: Please don't mistake Rifkin's words for everyone on BaseTradeTV. NOT HATING: Is there like a petition or something going on to replace Rifkin? I personally just cannot stand his talking and "casting", while Zombiegrub is actually pretty nice to watch, as she has great game knowledge and does not behave so arrogant and sometimes even rude to cocasters. But Rifkin makes it so bad I don't watch BT anymore. I actually heard the same thing from some more people, who would really like to see Zombiegrub cast with someone else, which would make a really great cast. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1839 Posts
On August 02 2016 10:48 stuchiu wrote: so a lawyer is gonna waste tens of hours to get some hundreds of dollars for this? Here's a link to the only esportslawy guy out there doing this sort of work. States the economics don't make taking up this case viable. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4vmg6q/legend_exsbenuafreeca_coach_talks_about_invasion/d600z7l Lawyers won't get involved with a handshake deal, which is what this sounds like to me. I would LOVE to be proved wrong and there actually be a legit, signed contract. | ||
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n3p
93 Posts
On August 02 2016 22:07 Ctone23 wrote: Lawyers won't get involved with a handshake deal, which is what this sounds like to me. I would LOVE to be proved wrong and there actually be a legit, signed contract. Sounds like there wasn't a legit contract. Players need to learn to not accept cash and make sure there is always a trail. They need to learn to protect themselves. While it's great and all to have lawyers who may be willing to take up a case after the fact, a lot of wrongdoing can be easily prevented with education of the players. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On August 02 2016 11:07 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:People are entitled to make a living out of their hard work. Especially when they are passionate about sc2... sc2 as an esport is an entertainment industry which means your entitlement to make a living is directly linked to your ability to promote and sell your talent. if you're a bad actor you're not entitled to free money because no one will cast you | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On August 02 2016 23:20 Koivusto wrote: Everybody is wrong and owe me 5,000 $. I got evidence saying otherwise. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yUvkLoW.png) Gibbe monneis!! > : ( | ||
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n3p
93 Posts
On August 02 2016 23:36 Cascade wrote: I got evidence saying otherwise. Gibbe monneis!! > : ( This Koivusto guy is shady as fuck. I'm gonna go grab my pitchfork. | ||
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Superbanana
2369 Posts
But Cascade is a greedy fuck and Kaivusto is a nice guy. | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
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Silvana
3713 Posts
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
On August 02 2016 23:52 n3p wrote: This Koivusto guy is shady as fuck. I'm gonna go grab my pitchfork. n3p is trying to use this drama to stay relevant. How pathetic. Koivusto is a nice guy that only helps the community!! Are we doing it right? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On August 02 2016 22:29 n3p wrote: Sounds like there wasn't a legit contract. Players need to learn to not accept cash and make sure there is always a trail. They need to learn to protect themselves. While it's great and all to have lawyers who may be willing to take up a case after the fact, a lot of wrongdoing can be easily prevented with education of the players. It just means there has to be some kind of KeSPA for foreigners. In other words, some organisation which protects players from lies and false promises to pay. I don't like Blizzard, but I think they should do it. What do they gain? Well, some percentage goes to them because they can't do this job for free, but it will be their responsibility to get you the money you have earned from tournaments. How could they do it? They ask for contracts or something that is legally binding. Why Blizzard? Because Blizzard, hated or not, have authority. Also, it is not feasible to have a KeSPA-like organisation for every country to support all foreigners. Blizzard also want a successful scene, while situations like this are the opposite. I understand people want 100% of money, but you may use Blizzard's help when you don't trust a tournament 100%. Alternatively, some good lawyer creates a contract template for tournaments on behalf of players. Players use it to give it to tournament organisers. If tournament organisers refuse, then players don't play. | ||
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n3p
93 Posts
On August 03 2016 01:58 Shield wrote: It just means there has to be some kind of KeSPA for foreigners. In other words, some organisation which protects players from lies and false promises to pay. I don't like Blizzard, but I think they should do it. What do they gain? Well, some percentage goes to them because they can't do this job for free, but it will be their responsibility to get you the money you have earned from tournaments. How could they do it? They ask for contracts or something that is legally binding. Why Blizzard? Because Blizzard, hated or not, have authority. Also, it is not feasible to have a KeSPA-like organisation for every country to support all foreigners. Blizzard also want a successful scene, while situations like this are the opposite. I understand people want 100% of money, but you may use Blizzard's help when you don't trust a tournament 100%. Alternatively, some good lawyer creates a contract template for tournaments on behalf of players. Players use it to give it to tournament organisers. If tournament organisers refuse, then players don't play. I don't see Blizzard doing it. I think there needs to be an outside regulatory body. Blizzard is a video game company, not a law office. | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
On August 02 2016 23:52 n3p wrote: This Koivusto guy is shady as fuck. I'm gonna go grab my pitchfork. No wonder we have a ded geim in our hands when you cannot even defend your rights as a businessman ;( Also, that conversation is definitely a fake, my English is not that great. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Very disappointing to hear this. I hope Gumiho gets paid. | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Fuck all those wankers. Gumiho hasn't been paid. | ||
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Penev
28504 Posts
Disappoint | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
Also, fuck Cascade. | ||
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Blargh
United States2103 Posts
On August 03 2016 03:41 Incognoto wrote: When legal measures won't work out, that's when we need pitch forks. Fuck all those wankers. Gumiho hasn't been paid. What if: Gumiho is playing everyone?? It's sort of like the movie, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Anyway, I'm afraid that there isn't enough evidence for the Pitchfork Trial ;_; | ||
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Elentos
55560 Posts
On August 03 2016 04:21 Blargh wrote: What if: Gumiho is playing everyone?? It's sort of like the movie, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Anyway, I'm afraid that there isn't enough evidence for the Pitchfork Trial ;_; We pitchfork first and review the evidence later. | ||
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BasetradeTV
Canada1307 Posts
On August 02 2016 21:06 realityyy wrote: NOT HATING: Is there like a petition or something going on to replace Rifkin? I personally just cannot stand his talking and "casting", while Zombiegrub is actually pretty nice to watch, as she has great game knowledge and does not behave so arrogant and sometimes even rude to cocasters. But Rifkin makes it so bad I don't watch BT anymore. I actually heard the same thing from some more people, who would really like to see Zombiegrub cast with someone else, which would make a really great cast. You should submit your request to the boss of Basetradetv | ||
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Ja.Y.
United States253 Posts
On August 03 2016 04:46 BasetradeTV wrote: You should submit your request to the boss of Basetradetv basetradetv_boss@hotmail.net? I want to write a strongly worded letter of why Rifkin should keep his job. Also, pls pay GuMiho, whoever it is that is withholding the money from him. When he wins GSL (dreams upon dreams), the $5,000 or whatever will be small but in life, got to get every penny you can. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On August 03 2016 04:46 BasetradeTV wrote: You should submit your request to the boss of Basetradetv That sarcasm. I didn't know who the "boss of Bastradetv" is, but it appears to be Rifkin according to https://www.basetrade.tv/about/ . | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On August 02 2016 21:06 realityyy wrote: NOT HATING: Is there like a petition or something going on to replace Rifkin? I personally just cannot stand his talking and "casting", while Zombiegrub is actually pretty nice to watch, as she has great game knowledge and does not behave so arrogant and sometimes even rude to cocasters. But Rifkin makes it so bad I don't watch BT anymore. I actually heard the same thing from some more people, who would really like to see Zombiegrub cast with someone else, which would make a really great cast. I don't have any problem with Rifkin myself, but Feardragon (who is a wonderful human being as far as I know) is now on Basetrade and casting and cast sometime with ZG, so maybe check back sometime. | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 03 2016 07:20 Shield wrote: That sarcasm. I didn't know who the "boss of Bastradetv" is, but it appears to be Rifkin according to https://www.basetrade.tv/about/ . I mean he did found it | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
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TechNoTrance
Canada1007 Posts
On August 03 2016 09:02 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I love when these threads go off on a tangent! Fuck that, this thread is derailed! Was already off on a tangent when people went on and on about the tweets by people who had no relevance at all in the topic. At least now we are back onto important stuff. Also Koivusto did nothing wrong. | ||
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
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WarreNSC2
United States28 Posts
twitter.com | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
No evidence of course, but why shut down your Twitter if you don't have anything to hide? Doesn't really fit with the story of how he is fine with handling everything in public because he is in the right. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
uhh ya... if they ever started to make any money you can bet Midway will want some cash for using their IP. | ||
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
You'd need to take a screenshot and post it for others to see. If others don't have access rights then the post cannot be seen. | ||
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n3p
93 Posts
On August 03 2016 01:05 phodacbiet wrote: n3p is trying to use this drama to stay relevant. How pathetic. Koivusto is a nice guy that only helps the community!! Are we doing it right? To be fair, I wasn't relevant to begin with so you're kinda doing it wrong...? | ||
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[16thSq] Kuro
1215 Posts
GuMiho's was apparently "go to Switzerland with Choya because we have some issues there" Just thought I'd put it here. | ||
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J. Corsair
United States470 Posts
Invasion needs to pay up. The messages make it pretty clear that he knew he owed money and used every excuse in the book to delay and delay. Very sad, Gumiho is a good guy and a great player, and we all owe Choya a great deal of respect. Wish they could use legal means to recover some finances here. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On August 03 2016 16:13 Cascade wrote: No evidence of course, but why shut down your Twitter if you don't have anything to hide? Doesn't really fit with the story of how he is fine with handling everything in public because he is in the right. Apperently he did this 17 days ago, don't know the exact reason anymore but it he said it in a reddit comment | ||
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nimbim
Germany985 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
On August 03 2016 21:32 J. Corsair wrote: Personally can't stand Rifkin either. Not a good casting voice, not very respectful, not particularly good at game analysis... it'd be nice to see him step away from casting for good and do the behind the scenes work. His contribution to this discussion couldn't be worth less. People should reserve their harshest criticisms for malicious, fraudulent liars that intentionally rob players of prize money. Rifkin is flawed but he is a 100% ethical operator. He adds a lot to the scene even with his flaws and if he likes broadcasting... its his channel. Rifkin gets a lot worse after he has been on the air for 8+ hours. There is a reason why real broadcasters almost never on air for 8+ hours. People track and record the stuff he says when he is overtired and so he gets a bad rap for it. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On August 03 2016 21:32 J. Corsair wrote: Personally can't stand Rifkin either. Not a good casting voice, not very respectful, not particularly good at game analysis... it'd be nice to see him step away from casting for good and do the behind the scenes work. His contribution to this discussion couldn't be worth less. Your personal opinion that a particular caster sucks and should hang it up is noted all across the land. Thank you, J. Corsair. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On August 04 2016 06:01 Doodsmack wrote: Your personal opinion that a particular caster sucks and should hang it up is noted all across the land. Thank you, J. Corsair. It's democracy. He/she can express an opinion. However, let's not continue with off-topic. It's becoming disrespectful. I'm sure Gumiho has a bigger problem than if Rifkin is a caster or not. | ||
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Creager
Germany1920 Posts
On August 04 2016 05:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote: People should reserve their harshest criticisms for malicious, fraudulent liars that intentionally rob players of prize money. Rifkin is flawed but he is a 100% ethical operator. He adds a lot to the scene even with his flaws and if he likes broadcasting... its his channel. Rifkin gets a lot worse after he has been on the air for 8+ hours. There is a reason why real broadcasters almost never on air for 8+ hours. People track and record the stuff he says when he is overtired and so he gets a bad rap for it. He's apparently unwilling to drop G2A as sponsor and doesn't see what's wrong with it, so I really wouldn't call him 100% ethical. | ||
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Dumbledore
Sweden725 Posts
On August 04 2016 05:51 JimmyJRaynor wrote: People should reserve their harshest criticisms for malicious, fraudulent liars that intentionally rob players of prize money. Rifkin is flawed but he is a 100% ethical operator. He adds a lot to the scene even with his flaws and if he likes broadcasting... its his channel. Rifkin gets a lot worse after he has been on the air for 8+ hours. There is a reason why real broadcasters almost never on air for 8+ hours. People track and record the stuff he says when he is overtired and so he gets a bad rap for it. Except Rifkin qualifies for that. SortOf bangate for example. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Hate on Korea and kespa all you want, but they keep shit straight. Barring the match-fixing scandals, then again, it's not like Kespa is easy on cheaters in the first place. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Hate on Korea and kespa all you want, but they keep shit straight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_South_Korea No, they really don't. | ||
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Ve5pa
United Kingdom252 Posts
That is the only way to eradicate them or otherwise anyone who has ever casted or played at a Dreamhack is unethical by some peoples reasoning as G2A sponsor these events and therefore these people are benefiting by proxy. TB worked on Dreamhack Austin and is very open critic of G2A and their practices, are you saying nor he or any other caster/player should work at or partake in Dreamhack events??? As previously stated it needs direct involvement from Blizzard to ensure G2A has no place at any Blizzard event. Whilst personal sponsorship of a person/ team/ company may reflect poorly on them as entities, how does it reflect on the whole scene that G2A is still affiliated with Dreamhack and therefore the whole foreign scene including all your favourite (non Korean) players/casters. | ||
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Khai
Australia553 Posts
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Creager
Germany1920 Posts
On August 04 2016 21:46 Ve5pa wrote: TB worked on Dreamhack Austin and is very open critic of G2A and their practices, are you saying nor he or any other caster/player should work at or partake in Dreamhack events??? To be frank, yes. If you don't concur with something, at all, the best you can do is seize support/not participate to demonstrate your stance on that particular topic. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
On August 04 2016 16:43 Creager wrote: He's apparently unwilling to drop G2A as sponsor and doesn't see what's wrong with it, so I really wouldn't call him 100% ethical. good point. i stand corrected. he is being a bit of a weiner by standing by his G2A sponsorship cash. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On August 04 2016 21:45 m4ini wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_South_Korea No, they really don't. You don't get it, if shit looks straight, then it's clearly straight, right? | ||
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Ve5pa
United Kingdom252 Posts
On August 05 2016 00:17 Creager wrote: To be frank, yes. If you don't concur with something, at all, the best you can do is seize support/not participate to demonstrate your stance on that particular topic. To be honest I agree with you, but in which case the entire western SC2 scene is tainted by dirty money, well at least all who have been to a Dreamhack in the last couple of years. But rather than spread hate for virtually all the casters/players and certainly not single anyone out (i.e. Rifkin, getting hate for G2A sponsor, all are just as bad, even those that contradict themselves, it doesn't matter how much you happen to like people or not.) Surely the best thing to do would be to state to all tournament organisers that partake in affiliated Blizzard events that G2A is an unwelcome sponsor. Clearly Blizzard who put up prize money for said events doesn't give a flying fuck about the ethical practice of company's such as G2A which is a real shame for all the people who have been conned or ripped off by G2A. I wonder if their is anyone left at Blizzard from the Blizzard North days who remembers the struggles the smaller company's go through. It seems not at the moment, or they simply just don't care. Take the wow sub's and buy more yachts, pump out crap expansions, don't fix servers but buy more yachts.... | ||
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killerm12
Slovakia601 Posts
On August 04 2016 16:43 Creager wrote: He's apparently unwilling to drop G2A as sponsor and doesn't see what's wrong with it, so I really wouldn't call him 100% ethical. tell that to Dreamhack as well. Some big streamers are also supported by them. I don't see you having problem with that. And while we are at that IEM was/is sponsored by Kinguin so you better drop them as well. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
On August 05 2016 03:08 killerm12 wrote: tell that to Dreamhack as well. Some big streamers are also supported by them. I don't see you having problem with that. And while we are at that IEM was/is sponsored by Kinguin so you better drop them as well. those orgs are not 100% ethical/clean either. they're somewhat tainted by dirty money. this does not mean they are napalming small villages in 3rd world countries though. | ||
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Ve5pa
United Kingdom252 Posts
On August 05 2016 03:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: those orgs are not 100% ethical/clean either. they're somewhat tainted by dirty money. this does not mean they are napalming small villages in 3rd world countries though. Nope that's America | ||
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Creager
Germany1920 Posts
On August 05 2016 03:08 killerm12 wrote: tell that to Dreamhack as well. Some big streamers are also supported by them. I don't see you having problem with that. And while we are at that IEM was/is sponsored by Kinguin so you better drop them as well. Read my previous post first, then complain, please. And just to clarify, I usually don't watch western/foreign SC2 content (not for the particular reason of shady sponsors, but disinterest in the foreign scene in general), at all, so please refrain from jumping to conclusions. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
Rifkin is from the People's Republic of British Columbia the highest taxed jurisdication in North America. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
On August 05 2016 04:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Rifkin is from the People's Republic of British Columbia the highest taxed jurisdication in North America. You sure Ontario isn't the top? | ||
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Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
i PM-ed you a Fraser Institute link so as not to further derail this thread. Regardless of tax rate the over all point i'd like to get across is that Rifkin is not from the USA. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 05 2016 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i PM-ed you a Fraser Institute link so as not to further derail this thread. Regardless of tax rate the over all point i'd like to get across is that Rifkin is not from the USA. Further derail? LOL this thread went from Gumiho (et. al) and Invasion (et. al) to Rifkin and Demuslim to Dreamhack and G2A sponsorship..... I don't think it can be further derailed.... About that guy named Trump huh? Something something... murica... great... something something... | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 05 2016 06:23 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Further derail? LOL this thread went from Gumiho (et. al) and Invasion (et. al) to Rifkin and Demuslim to Dreamhack and G2A sponsorship..... I don't think it can be further derailed.... About that guy named Trump huh? Something something... murica... great... something something... Woah there son, you keep this to douche bags and leave captain hair out of it | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17029 Posts
On August 05 2016 06:23 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: Further derail? LOL this thread went from Gumiho (et. al) and Invasion (et. al) to Rifkin and Demuslim to Dreamhack and G2A sponsorship..... I don't think it can be further derailed.... About that guy named Trump huh? Something something... murica... great... something something... Raynor's Official Policy on Derailing Threads + Show Spoiler + whenever i'm wrong on some fact i always PM the correct facts so as not to derail the thread. when i'm correct on some issue i'll go on for pages derailing the thread forever if possible. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 04 2016 21:45 m4ini wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_South_Korea No, they really don't. Nice of you to quote a single line of my post while keep the rest of it out, taking that quote out of context. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On August 08 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote: Nice of you to quote a single line of my post while keep the rest of it out, taking that quote out of context. From the quoted post I assume you mean that korea/kespa keeps their sponsors clean? If so then I would like to remind you of what happened with sonic. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On August 09 2016 00:05 sabas123 wrote: From the quoted post I assume you mean that korea/kespa keeps their sponsors clean? If so then I would like to remind you of what happened with sonic. They don't do a perfect job, arguably worse than sonic is the match-fixing. But for all the shit they get, you see that we don't have a foreigner equivalent. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
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