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Charoisaur
Germany16095 Posts
On July 07 2016 23:34 Ej_ wrote: hahahaha I don't understand, a viking has 9 range if it's attacking a broodlord from 9 range queens that are standing directly under the broods shouldn't hit the viking edit: on the pic it seems the queen is standing slightly in front of the broodlords so what he says isn't true | ||
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Hider
Denmark9448 Posts
On July 07 2016 11:57 Scarlett` wrote: pretty sure queen range didnt cause bl infestor it was just zergs figuring out the meta Broodlord/Infestor was always the superior composition after Snipe nerf. But before queen buff, zerg just had trouble getting there. | ||
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FoxDog
170 Posts
i want to tell people terran is a cool race and that practise has purpose but when you have to be gsl quality for the practise to pay off, and up to that its basically playing with a handicap there is no way. blizzard this is the definition of pulling the rug from underneath your terran players feet for the players outside the GSL, atleast make mech viable for the amateurs even though it may not be viable in the pro scene, all you have to do is make armories cost 100/50 and make turrets not require engineering bay, these changes will not affect pro play but show that you care and relieve anxiety to stupid allins when protoss/z has super powerful one unit allins that are not even allin anymore... | ||
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Siegetank_Dieter
45 Posts
but it would be a good start ofc^^ | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote: Queen: Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8 For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range? I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17873 Posts
On July 08 2016 00:36 FoxDog wrote: While i think these are good changes, and it is about time blizzard did something about the top korean terrans performance, terran is a living hell for anyone to increasing degree the higher they are on the ladder so long as they are not GSL caliber i love Terran. its my race... i play casually the other 2. I've simply accepted that i'll be lower on the ladder than i will with the other 2 races that i play casually. I'm not important and if this is what they have to do to balance the GSL i'm cool with it. On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote: The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, i'm happy with that. Terran relies on air too much, imo. I do not speak for an entire community though. i like a variety of strats to be viable and i don't like having to go Sky-Terran every game. The direction of the past 3 patches has been good. On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote: The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. i think DK has acknowledged this perspective and is willing to make further adjustments... also, do larva come out as fast in LotV as in WoL? i don't think they do. so your negative outcomes possibility is mitigated right there. Interesting historical analysis of WoL patches though. | ||
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1 2 1 2
39 Posts
On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote: For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range? I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other. Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17873 Posts
On July 08 2016 01:53 1 2 1 2 wrote: Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other. Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another. This man has wisdom far beyond his 18 posts.. and its great that after playing SC2 for more than 6 years he has decided to join TL.Net. I was beating Zergs in WoL with Hellions i had no business beating. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On July 08 2016 01:53 1 2 1 2 wrote: Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other. Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another. Hellions were powerful prior to the Queen range buff, but the fact of the matter is that buffing Queens was entirely the wrong approach. By buffing Queens, it invalidated a lot of openings including but not limited to:
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Agh
United States1105 Posts
On July 08 2016 02:02 Clbull wrote: Hellions were powerful prior to the Queen range buff, but the fact of the matter is that buffing Queens was entirely the wrong approach. By buffing Queens, it invalidated a lot of openings including but not limited to:
Queen buff in WoL was the most necessary buff to ever hit the game. You're clueless. | ||
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1 2 1 2
39 Posts
On July 08 2016 02:02 Clbull wrote: Hellions were powerful prior to the Queen range buff, but the fact of the matter is that buffing Queens was entirely the wrong approach. By buffing Queens, it invalidated a lot of openings including but not limited to:
That's funny. I seem to recall MKB and other Terrans opening 2 Rax gasless CC on maps such as Cloud Kingdom. Could it be that you're just talking random nonsense about things you dont understand? | ||
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Qwyn
United States2781 Posts
On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote: For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range? I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. The difference between now and then is that Terran has a tool that allows them to force their aggression (medivac boost). It is so powerful that IMO a buff to queen range isn't even going to do that much against it in the hands of a Terran with adequate control. What it does do is make shooting liberators down a bit easier (and poking at medivacs). So don't worry, the meta is still gonna be the same old Terran having every advantage in the midgame and Zerg desperately, desperately trying to get to ultras (or die trying!). Weakening air harass is good. There is too much abuse of air harassment against Zerg in LOTV. The other two races have all the cards on the table when it comes to air play, and Zerg has none unless they 2H muta. Mass muta (except for 10-12 gas switch ZvP) is dead. Terran air harass is so powerful that it singlehandedly dictates TvZ in LOTV. Frankly the queen change is a meager measure to help fight against it. | ||
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ShamanElemental1
56 Posts
- Revert back to HotS macro mechanics for all races and rebalance from there in all matchups - Bring back 4 larva and rebalance from there in all matchups - Make the Liberator a mid to late game unit to allow Mutas back in ZvT, nerf meditanks to get rid of stupid design and allow more trading ( simple thing like not dropping the tank in siege mode ) , nerf ultralisk because it swings the game to much. | ||
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Rowrin
United States280 Posts
:D | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On July 08 2016 05:27 ShamanElemental1 wrote: I honestly think that we have 3 solutions to fix ZvT - Revert back to HotS macro mechanics for all races and rebalance from there in all matchups - Bring back 4 larva and rebalance from there in all matchups - Make the Liberator a mid to late game unit to allow Mutas back in ZvT, nerf meditanks to get rid of stupid design and allow more trading ( simple thing like not dropping the tank in siege mode ) , nerf ultralisk because it swings the game to much. 4. Start playing and supporting StarBow instead. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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SpecKROELLchen
Germany151 Posts
On July 08 2016 06:26 Rowrin wrote: On the bright side, it looks like they finally brought back the goliath. It might be a zerg unit now, but at least it's there and better than ever before! :D Had a good laugh there :D: I think buffing the queen range was the completely wrong idea. Maybe even trying stupid things like "the liberator ability does not work in the range of mineral fields" or " A terran unit must be standing inside the ring to make them able to hit the target" would have been better. And for the midgame maybe "damage of overlapping regions does not add" but then buff other units like the Thor (maybe make massive units immune to colossive bile or something like that, and attacking vs air while moving) or so. On the other hand as many said on master level and mb lower (don't know which are the problems there) its still hell to play terran and without lib backup to siege a position in some scenarios it could get worse. | ||
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Creager
Germany1962 Posts
On July 08 2016 00:24 Hider wrote: Broodlord/Infestor was always the superior composition after Snipe nerf. But before queen buff, zerg just had trouble getting there. No, problem was Zergs didn't even know how to manage their creep properly, 4-6 Queen openings weren't popular back then, but after the patch it became a thing since it was relatively easy to defend just with queens, a few lings and good sim city against BFH. Creep got way better aftr that as now people had lots of Queens at their disposal, enhanced their map vision and made them even safer. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3550 Posts
On July 07 2016 22:57 1 2 1 2 wrote: What a time to be alive. Back in the days when I was playing Zerg on Xel'Naga Caverns, I remember Hellions outranging my Queens :D They also outranged Roaches. On July 07 2016 16:17 Scarlett` wrote: oracles are actually garbage vs zerg now ;o but adepts are still  I agree, but lets circumvent the issue, buff Larvae Inject from 3->4 and decrease Spine Crawler root time to 4 seconds. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
Ravager and medank case is just like widow mine and muta regen.One bad designed unit created another bad designed bullshit. | ||
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