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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20175310/legacy-of-the-void-balance-update-july-6-2016-7-6-2016
After thorough consideration and reviewing the feedback of players all over the world, we've made a few changes to the balance of the game. We previously tested these changes in the Balance Test Map and are now ready to move forward with them. You can expect to see the following adjustments applied to Legacy of the Void multiplayer today.
Balance Changes
Zerg
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
Spore Crawler:
Root time decreased from 6 to 4
If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, you can check out David Kim's recent forum post on the changes.
We continue to appreciate all the feedback we’ve received from the community as it helps shape each of our updates, and we hope you’ll continue to participate in future balance testing. Until next time, we hope you enjoy these changes!
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Is this live?
And first, maybe now I can actually use Queens for reliable Liberator killing, Spore change seems meh to be honest.
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i'm not sure what to think about queen buff.
spore buff seems okay.
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I remember when spores and spines took 30 seconds or a year
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Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers.
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nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.
On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers.
i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches.
DKs BNet Forum Post
for those of you at work or school with BNet blocked ... here u go people...
+ Show Spoiler +
Patch next week
After more playtests and more discussions with various people, we believe that it’ll be better to patch the current two changes to the live game sooner than later given the current situation. However, we do also want to point out that we definitely see the foreign community’s concern regarding the Queen buff, and we will definitely make sure to react quick if something breaks. But the two main reasons we would like to hurry up with this update is due to heavy feedback in favor of these changes on the KR pro side, and we also have a major tournament coming up in 2-3 weeks outside of Korea, so we would really love to push the change out to live as quickly as possible so that we can make necessary fixes before the WCS tournament if needed. So looking at this from both regions, it looks to be the right decision to patch quickly.
After the patch next week
We definitely hear your feedback regarding the potential for Ultralisk armor needing nerfs and the Liberator needing nerfs. We would really love to look at the impact of the Spore and Queen changes first before we start testing further changes. For example, if Zerg is performing much better in the early/mid game and are dominating in the late game, we can definitely take a look at the Ultralisk armor nerf, whereas if these changes were steps in the right direction but not enough, we can look at potential Liberator +light damage removal to its AA weapon.
Playing Skill vs. Game Design Skill
It’s been a while since we discussed more design philosophy based topics, and we noticed a topic being very big in the past couple weeks, so we wanted to share our thoughts regarding this. Specifically, we’re seeing a lot of posts discussing the importance of playing at a high skill level in order to be a good game designer.
Our thought is that these two have some overlap, but are different skillsets. We have seen so many examples of every mix of the two: A top player being so bad at game analysis, a top player being so good at game analysis, a bad player being so good at game design, and a bad player being also bad at game design. They’re just separate skills that one person can be good at none, one, or both of them. And the definition of a good player is so opinion based. For example, I’m currently in master league using random and if I say this to a pro player, they would think I’m pretty bad at the game. As compared to if I say this to a silver level player, they would think I’m good at the game.
The same goes for game design skills. Often times, game design skills are more difficult to quantify than say like awesome concept art skills or awesome programming skills. Interestingly, this is an area game designers on our team have a lot of discussions on regarding what an ideal game designer at Blizzard is, which is another fun topic that we can go into if there is desire for it for this in a future weekly update. And going more into detail on this current topic, the important thing for game designers working on SC2 is the ability to analyze game mechanics well. This is clearly a higher priority than playing the game at a pro level.
Just to finish off, we did want to ask a question that we ask ourselves often: In a perfect world scenario, would it be best to aim to have only game designers who are also the very best players at the game? Granted this might be near impossible to achieve, it is an interesting question because we can look at it from many different points of view. For example, I can argue that this is the best because the best player understand more parts of playing the game so he can analyze the game better as well. But I can also argue this isn’t ideal because he would be unable to see the game from a different perspective other than the top skill level, and the more ideal is to have a good mix of every type of gamer who all are good game designers.
We wanted to share our thoughts here because this is a fun topic to discuss, and we’ve also been leaning a bit more towards one way or another over the years on our team as well. Because there necessarily isn’t one, clear, perfect answer to this question, please let us know your thoughts as well and we will look forward to exploring this discussion from a potentially different angle!
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.
Stalker AA-vs-light buff next up?
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This buff is a joke for anyone who really tried the change in the balance test.
- it doesnt help against liberator at all
- it only helps a bit vs oracles and medivacs who are already very strong
And above else it promotes turtle.
Why would i go harass and counter when i have to defend meditanks/liberators/medivacs or oracles/phoenix/adepts
It doesnt fix shit in nerfing Terran midgame or making LBM a viable strategy.
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RIP carriers and oracles. The former will have to face queen fire when launching interceptors normally, the later can no longer face queen 1 on 1.
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On July 07 2016 06:48 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again. Stalker AA-vs-light buff next up?
i only play as Protoss 20% of the time and i'm in Diamond ... so i'm not really the guy to ask. what do u think about it?
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Still don't think these changes are the right way to go, it will just promote turtle play and let's them get to ultras a bit easier.
Zerg midgame is still non existent in ZvT.
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On July 07 2016 06:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again. Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers. i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches. DKs BNet Forum Postfor those of you at work or school with BNet blocked ... here u go people... + Show Spoiler +
Patch next week
After more playtests and more discussions with various people, we believe that it’ll be better to patch the current two changes to the live game sooner than later given the current situation. However, we do also want to point out that we definitely see the foreign community’s concern regarding the Queen buff, and we will definitely make sure to react quick if something breaks. But the two main reasons we would like to hurry up with this update is due to heavy feedback in favor of these changes on the KR pro side, and we also have a major tournament coming up in 2-3 weeks outside of Korea, so we would really love to push the change out to live as quickly as possible so that we can make necessary fixes before the WCS tournament if needed. So looking at this from both regions, it looks to be the right decision to patch quickly.
After the patch next week
We definitely hear your feedback regarding the potential for Ultralisk armor needing nerfs and the Liberator needing nerfs. We would really love to look at the impact of the Spore and Queen changes first before we start testing further changes. For example, if Zerg is performing much better in the early/mid game and are dominating in the late game, we can definitely take a look at the Ultralisk armor nerf, whereas if these changes were steps in the right direction but not enough, we can look at potential Liberator +light damage removal to its AA weapon.
Playing Skill vs. Game Design Skill
It’s been a while since we discussed more design philosophy based topics, and we noticed a topic being very big in the past couple weeks, so we wanted to share our thoughts regarding this. Specifically, we’re seeing a lot of posts discussing the importance of playing at a high skill level in order to be a good game designer.
Our thought is that these two have some overlap, but are different skillsets. We have seen so many examples of every mix of the two: A top player being so bad at game analysis, a top player being so good at game analysis, a bad player being so good at game design, and a bad player being also bad at game design. They’re just separate skills that one person can be good at none, one, or both of them. And the definition of a good player is so opinion based. For example, I’m currently in master league using random and if I say this to a pro player, they would think I’m pretty bad at the game. As compared to if I say this to a silver level player, they would think I’m good at the game.
The same goes for game design skills. Often times, game design skills are more difficult to quantify than say like awesome concept art skills or awesome programming skills. Interestingly, this is an area game designers on our team have a lot of discussions on regarding what an ideal game designer at Blizzard is, which is another fun topic that we can go into if there is desire for it for this in a future weekly update. And going more into detail on this current topic, the important thing for game designers working on SC2 is the ability to analyze game mechanics well. This is clearly a higher priority than playing the game at a pro level.
Just to finish off, we did want to ask a question that we ask ourselves often: In a perfect world scenario, would it be best to aim to have only game designers who are also the very best players at the game? Granted this might be near impossible to achieve, it is an interesting question because we can look at it from many different points of view. For example, I can argue that this is the best because the best player understand more parts of playing the game so he can analyze the game better as well. But I can also argue this isn’t ideal because he would be unable to see the game from a different perspective other than the top skill level, and the more ideal is to have a good mix of every type of gamer who all are good game designers.
We wanted to share our thoughts here because this is a fun topic to discuss, and we’ve also been leaning a bit more towards one way or another over the years on our team as well. Because there necessarily isn’t one, clear, perfect answer to this question, please let us know your thoughts as well and we will look forward to exploring this discussion from a potentially different angle!
Don't you think they should target the air units though?
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I cant belive that both modifications make it to the game without any other compensation...
The queen will become the new marine
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This occurred right after the first GSL group was played... Not that it would have made a difference but the timing is a bit poor.
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On July 07 2016 07:02 geokilla wrote:
This occurred right after the first GSL group was played... Not that it would have made a difference but the timing is a bit poor.
I'm sure Solar is furious and he had every right to be
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TBH I have no idea how this will affect Korea, it could be almost unnoticeable or it could be the old Queen patch all over again, but I feel certain it's a huge buff to foreign zerg's (I.e. Snute) defensive styles where they're already performing pretty well. Spore buff especially is a big deal vs Liberators imo.
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On July 07 2016 06:48 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again. Stalker AA-vs-light buff next up?
It's absolutely needed because phoenixes (in team games especially) and mutalisks laugh at stalkers. I'm 1vs1 low masters protoss, but stalkers have been weak against light air units since WoL.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
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Hi, TL! I come from near distant future 3 seasons after this patch.
1. Zerg Users: I feel the new AA buff for zerg promotes only Roach ravager play and I can't use mutas anymore its so unfair and everything sucks wah wah wah
2. DK buffs mutas
3. Toss, Terran players: Mutas are too strong they don't even die anymore seriously screw this we need buffs
4. DK buffs libs and photon overcharge
5. Toss, Zerg players: wah wah libs are too strong again we need buffs
Terran, Zerg players: PO is now one click defense against anything blah bla
I have warned you all.
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On July 07 2016 06:33 Hexe wrote:
I remember when spores and spines took 30 seconds or a year
It was one of the things that had my eyebrows raised the most when I first started sc2. I never understood it.
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On July 07 2016 07:27 RCCar wrote:
Hi, TL! I come from near distant future 3 seasons after this patch.
1. Zerg Users: I feel the new AA buff for zerg promotes only Roach ravager play and I can't use mutas anymore its so unfair and everything sucks wah wah wah
2. DK buffs mutas
3. Toss, Terran players: Mutas are too strong they don't even die anymore seriously screw this we need buffs
4. DK buffs libs and photon overcharge
5. Toss, Zerg players: wah wah libs are too strong again we need buffs
Terran, Zerg players: PO is now one click defense against anything blah bla
I have warned you all.
This is "fake" mostly because DK never buffs Zerg like it used to do.
So no buff to Muta.
He will just band aid with even more buff to queens and nerf to liberators because pride and reasons
He just wants to see how many zergs gets to ro16 GSL
And only Dark will be there....
History will repeat like it was way back with Taeja being the sole winner with Terran but this time it will be Dark with Zerg.
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Dont like the changes. It seems like 'turtle until hive' is the only acceptable Z strat at the moment, which is boring as hell.
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On July 07 2016 06:53 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 06:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again. On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers. i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches. DKs BNet Forum Postfor those of you at work or school with BNet blocked ... here u go people... + Show Spoiler +
Patch next week
After more playtests and more discussions with various people, we believe that it’ll be better to patch the current two changes to the live game sooner than later given the current situation. However, we do also want to point out that we definitely see the foreign community’s concern regarding the Queen buff, and we will definitely make sure to react quick if something breaks. But the two main reasons we would like to hurry up with this update is due to heavy feedback in favor of these changes on the KR pro side, and we also have a major tournament coming up in 2-3 weeks outside of Korea, so we would really love to push the change out to live as quickly as possible so that we can make necessary fixes before the WCS tournament if needed. So looking at this from both regions, it looks to be the right decision to patch quickly.
After the patch next week
We definitely hear your feedback regarding the potential for Ultralisk armor needing nerfs and the Liberator needing nerfs. We would really love to look at the impact of the Spore and Queen changes first before we start testing further changes. For example, if Zerg is performing much better in the early/mid game and are dominating in the late game, we can definitely take a look at the Ultralisk armor nerf, whereas if these changes were steps in the right direction but not enough, we can look at potential Liberator +light damage removal to its AA weapon.
Playing Skill vs. Game Design Skill
It’s been a while since we discussed more design philosophy based topics, and we noticed a topic being very big in the past couple weeks, so we wanted to share our thoughts regarding this. Specifically, we’re seeing a lot of posts discussing the importance of playing at a high skill level in order to be a good game designer.
Our thought is that these two have some overlap, but are different skillsets. We have seen so many examples of every mix of the two: A top player being so bad at game analysis, a top player being so good at game analysis, a bad player being so good at game design, and a bad player being also bad at game design. They’re just separate skills that one person can be good at none, one, or both of them. And the definition of a good player is so opinion based. For example, I’m currently in master league using random and if I say this to a pro player, they would think I’m pretty bad at the game. As compared to if I say this to a silver level player, they would think I’m good at the game.
The same goes for game design skills. Often times, game design skills are more difficult to quantify than say like awesome concept art skills or awesome programming skills. Interestingly, this is an area game designers on our team have a lot of discussions on regarding what an ideal game designer at Blizzard is, which is another fun topic that we can go into if there is desire for it for this in a future weekly update. And going more into detail on this current topic, the important thing for game designers working on SC2 is the ability to analyze game mechanics well. This is clearly a higher priority than playing the game at a pro level.
Just to finish off, we did want to ask a question that we ask ourselves often: In a perfect world scenario, would it be best to aim to have only game designers who are also the very best players at the game? Granted this might be near impossible to achieve, it is an interesting question because we can look at it from many different points of view. For example, I can argue that this is the best because the best player understand more parts of playing the game so he can analyze the game better as well. But I can also argue this isn’t ideal because he would be unable to see the game from a different perspective other than the top skill level, and the more ideal is to have a good mix of every type of gamer who all are good game designers.
We wanted to share our thoughts here because this is a fun topic to discuss, and we’ve also been leaning a bit more towards one way or another over the years on our team as well. Because there necessarily isn’t one, clear, perfect answer to this question, please let us know your thoughts as well and we will look forward to exploring this discussion from a potentially different angle!
Don't you think they should target the air units though?
that is 1 possible approach. buffing ground anti-air is another. i'm just glad they did 1 of the 2. as a diamond player i really only feel i should deliver a generalized message to Blizzard. Leave it to Boxer and Flash ( and of course Avilo cause is better than both those guys) to tell Blizzard whether the StimPack should last 11 seconds or 11.2 seconds or 10.98 seconds.
as a crappy player the granularity of my feedback should be low. my general message to Blizzard is that Terran air is too strong and i rely on that strength too much in my games.
when i play zerg and protoss i get pounded by terran air too much and its too big a part of terran's arsenal.
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man, this might even up the score but it would only further enhance the 3-base turtle into ultra style IMO.
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Who wants 3 bases ultra rush to be the only way to play ZvT? Well blizzard does.
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Blizzard, could Terran get a build time reduction and range buff to missile turrets as well? Those warp prisms are annoying to deal with.
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On July 07 2016 08:20 JackONeill wrote:
Who wants 3 bases ultra rush to be the only way to play ZvT? Well blizzard does.
That's why they won't have more viewers in sc2. Too little focus on fun gameplay. Nerfing stuff like oracles and similar options which destroy mineral line in a few seconds is a key to get more casual players playing sc2.
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On July 07 2016 06:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again. Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers. i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd like to see them move Banshee cloak to the late game and push Hyperflight Rotors as the early-game Banshee cheese upgrade. I could see it forcing early spire or Phoenix openings, whereas cloak just forces detection in a rather bland way.
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fuck u balance team, and fuck this patch. this isnt what zergs need right now. marine metank marauder are literally raping zergs like nanking
with balances like completely removing any air units in zvp with your clever designs, who needs a design team? why not just handle the project to 5th graders
User was temp banned for this post.
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and by "removing air units" i mean the old balance of making mutas and corrupters totally unviable unless u get the offchance that protoss is literally blind and doesnt scout the spire. because infinite damage from phoenix with no chance of ever gettting damaged is smart design
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
So no buff to Muta.
Mutas are actually pretty good, we've just thrown a ton of overpowered counters into the game since they were overbuffed in the HOTS beta
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On July 07 2016 08:32 Loccstana wrote:
Blizzard, could Terran get a build time reduction and range buff to missile turrets as well? Those warp prisms are annoying to deal with.
Or perhaps turrets when an orbital is done like in the beta.
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Not that I'm going to complain about buffs to my race, and it's not like they are so drastic that you can pull the, "David has no clue what he's doing" but it really seems like these buffs reinforce the notion that David has no real vision to fix actual issues and is more interested in PR band aid fixes to maintain a status quo of 50/50/50 balance which has already shown itself over the years to create stagnation and further declines in viewership (I don't know how many more tournaments SC2 is going to have if viewership keeps dropping) so I have to ask, where is the vision for this game?
Zerg is already great at playing defensive, creep is a powerful defensive tool, Queens and mobile static defenses are powerful defensive tools, Zerg doesn't really lack in areas of defense, we lack in areas of attack, are Liberators really even that OP at the higher levels? These changes will definitely make Liberators and Maru double drops weaker but will do nothing to incentivize Zerg moving out of their side of the map until Hive tech is out, engagements without Ultralisks/Broodlords/Adrenal are simply too punishing off of creep, especially vs. Terran.
Let's look at all of the exciting play offensive units that Zerg has and what their state in the current metagame is.
Mutalisks - Strongly buffed and then instead of nerfing the Mutalisk itself Liberators/Phoenix were made into hard counters which has made Mutalisk play borderline extinct. Mutalisk switches are just bad against Protoss, and 3 Liberators can pretty much a move through a pack of Mutalisks.
Infestors - laughably broken but nerfed into oblivion, any time I see these units they get a fungal off before they are popped in about a second flat, waste of gas, even Snute and Scarlett don't really touch them as they're too unwieldy and underwhelming.
Hydralisks - Mediocre in ZvP only in timing windows otherwise very very bad, almost totally non viable vs. Terran and ZvZ they are great for making Lurkers. Frail, sucks vs things it isn't supposed to suck against (Phoenix? Liberators?) and gas intensive, yet another iconic offensive Zerg unit left to the side lines to suck and keep us on our side of the map.
Viper - Used to be OP now it sucks ass in pretty much every match up outside of Mutalisk vs Mutalisk wars, Blinding Cloud is good against mech which isn't great, PB sucks against players that can can split at a Master league level and above, and consume (gasp surprise) keeps Vipers pretty much on their side of the map at all times because without energy they are floating defenseless 200 gas targets.
The solution is to give Zerg more offensive options, not continue to buff it's defensive options until turtling to Hive becomes the premium strategy to use in all match ups. The increased Queen range is also going to make ZvZ even more cheese friendly and volatile then it already is with Overlord scouting becoming much more difficult, 2 Queens can easily pick off a non speed Overlord.
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Zerg has so many weaknesses but queen is definetly not one of them. This is a really bad band-aid as usual.
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Is the patch already live?
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nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis.
The problem isn't static defense, but core ground units to air that is generally too weak.
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This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them.
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Bigger changes probably won't come until after Blizzcon during the off-season.
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United States572 Posts
On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them.
The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change.
Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out.
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On July 07 2016 11:39 eviltomahawk wrote:
Bigger changes probably won't come until after Blizzcon during the off-season.
Bigger changes probably won't come*
Here, fixed it for you.
Cyclone change, thor buff, and SH buff were beautifull diversions from the "dev team" (which probably consist of DK working once a week and a lone programmer in a dusty basement), just good enough to appear as legit, and just bad enough not to change anything in reality.
It's pretty obvious now that blizz has no interest in patching and actively solving the design issues that plague LOTV. Even balance patches come down to the lowest of the band aids. Queen is once again reinforced as the ultimate and only zerg early game defense, effectively preventing zerg from ever crossing the map. More queens, more turtle into T3, more of what we've seen since happen in the matchup since november 2015 : the same game, over and over again, of terran trying to kill zerg before T3, and zerg turtling with no real option to ever cross the map.
Moreover, we've seen the dev team repeatedly ignore the community's feedback, which they pretend to listen to. Talking about anything else that what the community wants (DK's ladder level, or warcraft movie advertisement), and babysitting the KR pro scene's balance is the only thing that has been truly done.
Community asking for an adept nerf? Ignored, until Seed/KR pro scene asked for it.
Community in favor of the tank's removal? Ignored.
Community not in favor of the queen range buff? Ignored.
Stale PR is stale, and I don't see the point of continuing to give blizz feedback. There's a truckload of stuff that is frustating and poorly designed in the game, that has been pointed out by the community for months, but apparently Blizz is waiting for SC2 to fade away so that we can all go buy crates in overwatch.
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On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out.
pretty sure queen range didnt cause bl infestor it was just zergs figuring out the meta
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On July 07 2016 11:57 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out. pretty sure queen range didnt cause bl infestor it was just zergs figuring out the meta
what are your thoughts on this patch? i feel like queen AA improvement will be a pretty nice buff helping vs libs/medivacs/prisms especially
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On July 07 2016 06:49 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
And above else it promotes turtle.
But that is the Blizzard way. When WOL, HOTS and LOTV were released, aggressive options were powerful and plentiful, and Blizzard intended for this to happen. But over time with each release, they've slowly nerfed aggressive options or buffed defensive options until the game becomes a turtle fest with no action.
Then Blizzard wonders why the game is so passive and releases an expansion with new aggressive options that promote action. And of course they dutifully begin nerfing those aggressive options and the process repeats itself...
My God does this game need a new design team, we've been on this merry-go-round way too long. This process isn't the only way to design a game, and it just happens to be one of the worst ways.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On July 07 2016 11:57 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out. pretty sure queen range didnt cause bl infestor it was just zergs figuring out the meta
buffed queen & 6queen opening reset tvz overnight and made it easier for Z to consistently force the game late. If Z is struggling to take a third and stay alive then other stuff doesn't really matter
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I hared Overwatch has a competitive mode now, albeit complete shit but it can't be worse than this patch.
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On July 07 2016 08:34 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 06:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again. On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers. i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches. This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd like to see them move Banshee cloak to the late game and push Hyperflight Rotors as the early-game Banshee cheese upgrade. I could see it forcing early spire or Phoenix openings, whereas cloak just forces detection in a rather bland way.
that sounds like a cool idea.
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On July 07 2016 11:55 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:39 eviltomahawk wrote:
Bigger changes probably won't come until after Blizzcon during the off-season. Bigger changes probably won't come* Here, fixed it for you. Cyclone change, thor buff, and SH buff were beautifull diversions from the "dev team" (which probably consist of DK working once a week and a lone programmer in a dusty basement), just good enough to appear as legit, and just bad enough not to change anything in reality. It's pretty obvious now that blizz has no interest in patching and actively solving the design issues that plague LOTV. Even balance patches come down to the lowest of the band aids. Queen is once again reinforced as the ultimate and only zerg early game defense, effectively preventing zerg from ever crossing the map. More queens, more turtle into T3, more of what we've seen since happen in the matchup since november 2015 : the same game, over and over again, of terran trying to kill zerg before T3, and zerg turtling with no real option to ever cross the map. Moreover, we've seen the dev team repeatedly ignore the community's feedback, which they pretend to listen to. Talking about anything else that what the community wants (DK's ladder level, or warcraft movie advertisement), and babysitting the KR pro scene's balance is the only thing that has been truly done. Community asking for an adept nerf? Ignored, until Seed/KR pro scene asked for it. Community in favor of the tank's removal? Ignored. Community not in favor of the queen range buff? Ignored. Stale PR is stale, and I don't see the point of continuing to give blizz feedback. There's a truckload of stuff that is frustating and poorly designed in the game, that has been pointed out by the community for months, but apparently Blizz is waiting for SC2 to fade away so that we can all go buy crates in overwatch.
I sincerely hope that you find the will to stop playing and following SC2 (like I did). The game is not going to get better and you know it at this point. Reading the "balance updates" over and over again without any real change in the game is just feeding the false hopes. Honestly, It's such a relief to don't give a shit about this game anymore.
Btw, you truly know the game is done when Avilo is playing more overwatch then SC2.
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Dk taking a huge dump right in the face of the community
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Addressing an issue that only matters for the top 5-10 Zerg - Check.
Ignoring issues that matters to most of the community like adepts, invulnerable nydus and flying tanks - Check.
Maybe Blizzard should start working on issues that matters to most of their ladder players, not just the top 0.1% ?
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oracles are actually garbage vs zerg now ;o
but adepts are still 
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On July 07 2016 10:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Not that I'm going to complain about buffs to my race, and it's not like they are so drastic that you can pull the, "David has no clue what he's doing" but it really seems like these buffs reinforce the notion that David has no real vision to fix actual issues and is more interested in PR band aid fixes to maintain a status quo of 50/50/50 balance which has already shown itself over the years to create stagnation and further declines in viewership (I don't know how many more tournaments SC2 is going to have if viewership keeps dropping) so I have to ask, where is the vision for this game?
Zerg is already great at playing defensive, creep is a powerful defensive tool, Queens and mobile static defenses are powerful defensive tools, Zerg doesn't really lack in areas of defense, we lack in areas of attack, are Liberators really even that OP at the higher levels? These changes will definitely make Liberators and Maru double drops weaker but will do nothing to incentivize Zerg moving out of their side of the map until Hive tech is out, engagements without Ultralisks/Broodlords/Adrenal are simply too punishing off of creep, especially vs. Terran.
Let's look at all of the exciting play offensive units that Zerg has and what their state in the current metagame is.
Mutalisks - Strongly buffed and then instead of nerfing the Mutalisk itself Liberators/Phoenix were made into hard counters which has made Mutalisk play borderline extinct. Mutalisk switches are just bad against Protoss, and 3 Liberators can pretty much a move through a pack of Mutalisks.
Infestors - laughably broken but nerfed into oblivion, any time I see these units they get a fungal off before they are popped in about a second flat, waste of gas, even Snute and Scarlett don't really touch them as they're too unwieldy and underwhelming.
Hydralisks - Mediocre in ZvP only in timing windows otherwise very very bad, almost totally non viable vs. Terran and ZvZ they are great for making Lurkers. Frail, sucks vs things it isn't supposed to suck against (Phoenix? Liberators?) and gas intensive, yet another iconic offensive Zerg unit left to the side lines to suck and keep us on our side of the map.
Viper - Used to be OP now it sucks ass in pretty much every match up outside of Mutalisk vs Mutalisk wars, Blinding Cloud is good against mech which isn't great, PB sucks against players that can can split at a Master league level and above, and consume (gasp surprise) keeps Vipers pretty much on their side of the map at all times because without energy they are floating defenseless 200 gas targets.
The solution is to give Zerg more offensive options, not continue to buff it's defensive options until turtling to Hive becomes the premium strategy to use in all match ups. The increased Queen range is also going to make ZvZ even more cheese friendly and volatile then it already is with Overlord scouting becoming much more difficult, 2 Queens can easily pick off a non speed Overlord.
I think they know this is not what's best for the long term, and I hope they'll come up with a better idea in the future. They have to patch something really fast because of the state of Zerg in Korea, given they have almost only two tournaments in which they can get points for Blizzcon and in one of them, SSL, Zerg are already almost completely out so I feel it's more a temporary emergency fix so they don't drop all out of GSL too.
On July 07 2016 11:57 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out. pretty sure queen range didnt cause bl infestor it was just zergs figuring out the meta
Indeed as Stephano was already doing it before the Queen buff, but it made it way too much easier to go there after the patch, which was the biggest problem.
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such booooring changes =(. I was hoping they would do one of those changes and keep testing. Would have loved to see testing for something unusual. A Queen dying does a buff or debuff to units or make lib AA almost non existent until you upgrade air weapons. Stuff that could be problematic w/o long testing.
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If they ever do a major revamp of all the problematic units, I sincerely hope they think about switching the roles between the tankivac and liberator. The liberator should be the versatile, more mobile and lower damage dealer, while the tank should be the static, slow and high damage unit (but weak when left alone in a bad position). And with this I mean remove the sieged tank pickup and buff the damage of course, the "old dream".
I think the stuff that needs to be looked at asap are: Ultra armor, swarmhost and cyclone changes/redesign, nydus permanent armor instead of invincible when building, make Battlecruisers viable somehow (change the basic attack to spell damage?).
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I am extremely disturbed that ranged-mineral-only-caster got buffed again. Why not reduce Liberator's range by -1 as previously proposed?
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A band aid patch fix. Nothing to get excited about. Hope they still have some truly nice gameplay fixes down the pipeline, they do right? Remember all the fanfare when LotV was announced? I am beginning to feel a bit sad about LotV honestly.
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On July 07 2016 18:11 pieroog wrote:
I am extremely disturbed that ranged-mineral-only-caster got buffed again. Why not reduce Liberator's range by -1 as previously proposed?
I guess that would make TvP unplayable.
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On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change.
Broodlord range has been buffed since lotv release, now the queen again + parasitic bomb. Good times ahead.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On July 07 2016 18:38 PinoKotsBeer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Broodlord range has been buffed since lotv release, now the queen again + parasitic bomb. Good times ahead.
15.8% BL range increase, viper buffs, crackling upgrade doubled in effectiveness and ultra armor giving +4 instead of +2 - LOTV has no shortage of hive buffs
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On July 07 2016 06:50 Odowan Paleolithic wrote:
RIP carriers [...]
made me chuckle
carriers right now
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Stargate and factory centric styles have been continually nerfed because blizzard doesn't want you to play the game that way.
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I feel that they're really trying
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On July 07 2016 19:10 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 18:38 PinoKotsBeer wrote:On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Broodlord range has been buffed since lotv release, now the queen again + parasitic bomb. Good times ahead. 15.8% BL range increase, viper buffs, crackling upgrade doubled in effectiveness and ultra armor giving +4 instead of +2 - LOTV has no shortage of hive buffs
Exactly, no wonder everyone wants to end the game before hive. oh well, guess it will take another few months before we can see a new patch.
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On July 07 2016 14:07 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 06:49 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
And above else it promotes turtle. But that is the Blizzard way. When WOL, HOTS and LOTV were released, aggressive options were powerful and plentiful, and Blizzard intended for this to happen. But over time with each release, they've slowly nerfed aggressive options or buffed defensive options until the game becomes a turtle fest with no action. Then Blizzard wonders why the game is so passive and releases an expansion with new aggressive options that promote action. And of course they dutifully begin nerfing those aggressive options and the process repeats itself... My God does this game need a new design team, we've been on this merry-go-round way too long. This process isn't the only way to design a game, and it just happens to be one of the worst ways.
I agree, SC2 has to many band aids.
Mostly because David ignores real problems and its to afraid to cut in flesh and fix.
If they try to fix stuff , it will take at least 1 year of drastic changes, where everyone and their mother will cry about balance instead of focusing on design.
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On July 07 2016 07:02 geokilla wrote:
This occurred right after the first GSL group was played... Not that it would have made a difference but the timing is a bit poor.
This makes perfectly sence if you update during a running competition. Gives players most time to adjust pefore the play competitive. Updating right before the group played would have been a poor decision. Cant make them play a patch that they havent trained with
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They actually went through with the Queen buff? Good lord Blizz why, this doesn't seem like the correct response at all.
Nerf Lib air to ground damage/range
Nerf Adept shades
Nerf Ultralisk armour
But don't buff stuff that doesn't need buffing X_X
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On July 07 2016 16:17 Scarlett` wrote:oracles are actually garbage vs zerg now ;o but adepts are still
I hope an adept shade nerf is considered at some point, because then the pvz match-up would be really fair I think with the queen/spore buff and the shade nerf
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SC2 cannot be helped anymore with anything else than a huge basic overhaul at its current state.
The way to do this is to remove all LOTV + HOTS units and redesign WOL from the start. Then step by step add HOTS + LOTV units back (rebalanced, redesigned).
Focus should be on shifting terran away from bio/(and now air) dominance and make it a more late-game heavy race. Terran cannot be the highest mobility race or the game wont work at all, but it now is. Zerg cannot be the defensive race but it now is. The natural tools of each race only support a game design that is the other way round.
WOL rebalance:
1. remove marauder
2. adapt tank in marauder spot
3. give tank back its upgrade at tech lab so it can be buffed without being abused too early.
4. bring back marauder in lategame with akademy building (200mins/200gas).
5. reduce banling damage by ~50%
6. remove muta regen
7. nerf roaches/gateway units to adapt removal of marauder
8. put lurker on top of roach and ravager on top of hydralisk so that mech can become a thing without tankivacs (potentially even switch hydras with roaches)
9. of course further adaptions of WOL units, splash and terrible damage from all sources can be reduced
10. carefully bring back HOTS + LOTV units and fit them in this new meta.
Done! We get a game that is fun to play, which doesn't skip early/midgame, which allows unit progression, which is less punishing, which allows the races to play their natural strengths (no its not z defending and terran on max mobility!!!), which allows players to differentiate themselves more from each other through skill, which will have alot more variety in legitimate playstyles, which will have loosened timings so that slight advantages/disadvantages don't predecide games as easily, which allows to remove alot of the op stuff that has been added to counter other op stuff which over the years has made the game bad!
It is essential to understand that all sources of failure come from the fact that each T and Z have to play metas that their races where not made for.
Z is not the race to have an op endgame and turtle to it. Terran is not the race to constantly harrass.
The problem with that is balance. If you design the game as it is now the balance will be and stay fragile forever. By default satisfactory balance and design wont be possible to achieve.
The defending race cannot have the instant remax ability of zerg and the offensive race cannot have the best defence in game such as terran has it which makes them almost unattackable other than with new op tools like ravagers/op ultras/invincible nydus (the wrong path that you have gone). It creates fundamental balance issues. The defending race with op 200/200 army must have slow production, the offensive race with weaker 200/200 army must have the instant remax ability that zerg has and can be more fragile to attacks. The defensive race must have an ability such as mules to keep it in game during constant attacks and harrassments and in the end even allows them to sac SCV to make its lategame stronger. It is quite simple.
The key of terran inner design is to not allow them to play completely without bio but also to not allow them to play pure bio. It should not be like when terran wins an attack that 90% of its units stim in and kill 2+ bases of the opponent even tho the game didn't necessarily need to be over if the opponent had a bit more time. With bio + mech compositions the goal is to allow stimmed marines to deal the damage without being in cover of the slower heavier units behind and then retreat instead of yolo stim marauder + marine in and gg. When terran gets back alot of its slowness it's units can become better. In opposite to what most ppl. believe the siege tank should have an as long as possible siege time so that gameplay evolves around siege/unsiege timings and it can be buffed as much as possible (would become op with fast siege/unsiege times). Etc. Stopping here.
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this won't happen.
they don'T even make meaningful changes at all.
why should they redesign the game ?
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'Don't let them get there' just got alot harder. Oh well, time to switch to toss.
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We'll see how it goes, if Zerg begins to be too strong in zvt (pretty sure it will never be the case in zvp), ultras will be nerf. (in fact, I'm pretty sure ultras will be nerf whatever happens in the future)
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What a time to be alive. Back in the days when I was playing Zerg on Xel'Naga Caverns, I remember Hellions outranging my Queens :D
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Funny thing is that in GSL Solar beat Gumiho by actually attacking with his T2. He maxed out in roach ravagers and crossed the map. Game 1 and Game 3, he rushed ultras and lost.
If every single zerg KR player is rushing ultras without trying out other things before that, if they refuse to adapt, and then cry to DK who'll buff the queen which is probably the strongest defenive unit in the game already, while completely ignoring community feedback, here come the fun times.
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DK alluded to nerfing the Ultralisk if strengthening the Queen results in Zergs leaning on Ultralisks too much.
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On July 07 2016 10:18 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Not that I'm going to complain about buffs to my race, and it's not like they are so drastic that you can pull the, "David has no clue what he's doing" but it really seems like these buffs reinforce the notion that David has no real vision to fix actual issues and is more interested in PR band aid fixes to maintain a status quo of 50/50/50 balance which has already shown itself over the years to create stagnation and further declines in viewership (I don't know how many more tournaments SC2 is going to have if viewership keeps dropping) so I have to ask, where is the vision for this game?
While I agree with you in general, when I read the rest of your post, I feel like you're adressing the wrong issues.
Zerg is already great at playing defensive, creep is a powerful defensive tool, Queens and mobile static defenses are powerful defensive tools, Zerg doesn't really lack in areas of defense, we lack in areas of attack, are Liberators really even that OP at the higher levels? These changes will definitely make Liberators and Maru double drops weaker but will do nothing to incentivize Zerg moving out of their side of the map until Hive tech is out, engagements without Ultralisks/Broodlords/Adrenal are simply too punishing off of creep, especially vs. Terran.
Sure they have one of the strongest defenses, what you don't understand is, it costs a lot of apm and minerals in order to defend against a liberator in the very beginning of the game. Pretty much like marines against mutas. It's a pain in the ass to defend especially when you have 3 bases. I won't mention the maps where that Liberator unit is broken af.
Let's look at all of the exciting play offensive units that Zerg has and what their state in the current metagame is.
Mutalisks - Strongly buffed and then instead of nerfing the Mutalisk itself Liberators/Phoenix were made into hard counters which has made Mutalisk play borderline extinct. Mutalisk switches are just bad against Protoss, and 3 Liberators can pretty much a move through a pack of Mutalisks.
This is exactly why the liberators are here. I still hate this design though. But mutas switch against protoss aren't as bad as you may think. They're actually powerful especially after switching to a solid hydra / lurker composition (Protoss has to make a immortals / archons in order to defend against lurkers. They won't think of making phoenix at all at this stage).
Infestors - laughably broken but nerfed into oblivion, any time I see these units they get a fungal off before they are popped in about a second flat, waste of gas, even Snute and Scarlett don't really touch them as they're too unwieldy and underwhelming.
Hydralisks - Mediocre in ZvP only in timing windows otherwise very very bad, almost totally non viable vs. Terran and ZvZ they are great for making Lurkers. Frail, sucks vs things it isn't supposed to suck against (Phoenix? Liberators?) and gas intensive, yet another iconic offensive Zerg unit left to the side lines to suck and keep us on our side of the map.
I feel like you haven't played a lot of Hydras' builds tbh... Sure they're fragile, but they can be game deciders when you put the right combo of units. Hydra outrange the roaches so if you can hotkey them separatively behind the roaches they can do wonders. You're right against terran, I don't like making them at all. It's even worse against tankivacs T_T
Viper - Used to be OP now it sucks ass in pretty much every match up outside of Mutalisk vs Mutalisk wars, Blinding Cloud is good against mech which isn't great, PB sucks against players that can can split at a Master league level and above, and consume (gasp surprise) keeps Vipers pretty much on their side of the map at all times because without energy they are floating defenseless 200 gas targets.
The solution is to give Zerg more offensive options, not continue to buff it's defensive options until turtling to Hive becomes the premium strategy to use in all match ups. The increased Queen range is also going to make ZvZ even more cheese friendly and volatile then it already is with Overlord scouting becoming much more difficult, 2 Queens can easily pick off a non speed Overlord.
You're pretty much right. It doesn't feel zergish at all nowadays. What we really need is to nerf the liberators, not buffing the queens. I think they fear that if they nerf too much that unit, it'll become another useless expansion unit. But it's still the reason why I'm playing less and less.
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just played the patch... my goodness that range is massive... blizzard!!! my medivacs too  !!
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Atleast you can't spam Queens unless you build more hatcheries, or Queen into Ultra would be a thing. PS don't tell Zergs they can build more hatcheries.
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I don't understand, a viking has 9 range if it's attacking a broodlord from 9 range queens that are standing directly under the broods shouldn't hit the viking
edit: on the pic it seems the queen is standing slightly in front of the broodlords so what he says isn't true
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On July 07 2016 11:57 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out. pretty sure queen range didnt cause bl infestor it was just zergs figuring out the meta
Broodlord/Infestor was always the superior composition after Snipe nerf. But before queen buff, zerg just had trouble getting there.
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While i think these are good changes, and it is about time blizzard did something about the top korean terrans performance, terran is a living hell for anyone to increasing degree the higher they are on the ladder so long as they are not GSL caliber
i want to tell people terran is a cool race and that practise has purpose but when you have to be gsl quality for the practise to pay off, and up to that its basically playing with a handicap there is no way.
blizzard this is the definition of pulling the rug from underneath your terran players feet for the players outside the GSL, atleast make mech viable for the amateurs even though it may not be viable in the pro scene,
all you have to do is make armories cost 100/50 and make turrets not require engineering bay, these changes will not affect pro play but show that you care and relieve anxiety to stupid allins when protoss/z has super powerful one unit allins that are not even allin anymore...
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cheaper armories and turret change wouldn't make mech viable at all though....
but it would be a good start ofc^^
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On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote:
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range?
I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes.
The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army.
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On July 08 2016 00:36 FoxDog wrote:
While i think these are good changes, and it is about time blizzard did something about the top korean terrans performance, terran is a living hell for anyone to increasing degree the higher they are on the ladder so long as they are not GSL caliber
i love Terran. its my race... i play casually the other 2. I've simply accepted that i'll be lower on the ladder than i will with the other 2 races that i play casually. I'm not important and if this is what they have to do to balance the GSL i'm cool with it.
On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:
The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units,
i'm happy with that. Terran relies on air too much, imo. I do not speak for an entire community though. i like a variety of strats to be viable and i don't like having to go Sky-Terran every game. The direction of the past 3 patches has been good.
On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:
The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army.
i think DK has acknowledged this perspective and is willing to make further adjustments... also, do larva come out as fast in LotV as in WoL? i don't think they do. so your negative outcomes possibility is mitigated right there. Interesting historical analysis of WoL patches though.
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On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote:
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range?I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army.
Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other.
Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another.
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On July 08 2016 01:53 1 2 1 2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote:
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range?I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other. Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another.
This man has wisdom far beyond his 18 posts.. and its great that after playing SC2 for more than 6 years he has decided to join TL.Net. I was beating Zergs in WoL with Hellions i had no business beating.
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On July 08 2016 01:53 1 2 1 2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote:
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range?I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other. Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another.
Hellions were powerful prior to the Queen range buff, but the fact of the matter is that buffing Queens was entirely the wrong approach.
By buffing Queens, it invalidated a lot of openings including but not limited to:
- Reaper Expand
- 2 Rax Expand
- 3 Rax
- 3 Gate Expand
- 3 Gate Robo
- 4 Gate
- 111 (into Banshees)
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On July 08 2016 02:02 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 01:53 1 2 1 2 wrote:On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote:
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range?I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other. Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another. Hellions were powerful prior to the Queen range buff, but the fact of the matter is that buffing Queens was entirely the wrong approach. By buffing Queens, it invalidated a lot of openings including but not limited to: - Reaper Expand
- 2 Rax Expand
- 3 Rax
- 3 Gate Expand
- 3 Gate Robo
- 4 Gate
- 111 (into Banshees)
Queen buff in WoL was the most necessary buff to ever hit the game. You're clueless.
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On July 08 2016 02:02 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 01:53 1 2 1 2 wrote:On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote:
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range?I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army. Did you actually play Zerg back when Hellions outranged Queens on maps such as Xel'Naga Caverns? Maybe, you did not, but I did. Trust me, queen range buff was a great thing for the game. Broodlord Infestor being bad design-wise and balance-wise is another issue. You're mixing them up. Blizzard could have buffed Queen and nerfed Infestors. One does not rule out the other. Cut to present day. Whether Zerg needs help early on is one thing. Whether buffing Queen's aa range to accomplish that is another thing. Whether Zerg Hive tech is too strong is yet another thing. Dont confuse one thing with another. Hellions were powerful prior to the Queen range buff, but the fact of the matter is that buffing Queens was entirely the wrong approach. By buffing Queens, it invalidated a lot of openings including but not limited to: - Reaper Expand
- 2 Rax Expand
- 3 Rax
- 3 Gate Expand
- 3 Gate Robo
- 4 Gate
- 111 (into Banshees)
That's funny. I seem to recall MKB and other Terrans opening 2 Rax gasless CC on maps such as Cloud Kingdom. Could it be that you're just talking random nonsense about things you dont understand?
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On July 08 2016 01:41 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 05:39 Siegetank_Dieter wrote:
Queen:
Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8
For fuck's sake, Blizzard. Remember what happened the last time you ignored the community and buffed Queen attack range?I really think they need to start listening to the scene again. Siegeivacs are bad, not just from a balance standpoint but also from a game design standpoint. On top of that, Siege Tanks on their own without Medivacs to drop them are weak, inefficient, slow, hardly as powerful as their Brood War equivalents, and desperately need a buff as a result, and yet when they tested the changes and they were received positively by the community, Blizzard instead chose to scrap the update proposal to try more nonsensical changes. The only thing buffing Queen air attack range can accomplish is significantly weakening air harass units, just like how buffing ground attack range killed off almost every single TvZ and PvZ opening. The whole zerg dominance phenomena in late Wings of Liberty was created from a balance update as poor as this, because all non-eco openings were killed against Zerg, and basically allowed Zerg to produce 70 drones in record time, defend virtually all aggressive early game pushes with just Queens and minimal gas/larvae commitment, and tech up to a 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord army.
The difference between now and then is that Terran has a tool that allows them to force their aggression (medivac boost). It is so powerful that IMO a buff to queen range isn't even going to do that much against it in the hands of a Terran with adequate control.
What it does do is make shooting liberators down a bit easier (and poking at medivacs).
So don't worry, the meta is still gonna be the same old Terran having every advantage in the midgame and Zerg desperately, desperately trying to get to ultras (or die trying!).
Weakening air harass is good. There is too much abuse of air harassment against Zerg in LOTV. The other two races have all the cards on the table when it comes to air play, and Zerg has none unless they 2H muta. Mass muta (except for 10-12 gas switch ZvP) is dead.
Terran air harass is so powerful that it singlehandedly dictates TvZ in LOTV. Frankly the queen change is a meager measure to help fight against it.
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I honestly think that we have 3 solutions to fix ZvT
- Revert back to HotS macro mechanics for all races and rebalance from there in all matchups
- Bring back 4 larva and rebalance from there in all matchups
- Make the Liberator a mid to late game unit to allow Mutas back in ZvT, nerf meditanks to get rid of stupid design and allow more trading ( simple thing like not dropping the tank in siege mode ) , nerf ultralisk because it swings the game to much.
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On the bright side, it looks like they finally brought back the goliath. It might be a zerg unit now, but at least it's there and better than ever before!
:D
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On July 08 2016 05:27 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
I honestly think that we have 3 solutions to fix ZvT
- Revert back to HotS macro mechanics for all races and rebalance from there in all matchups
- Bring back 4 larva and rebalance from there in all matchups
- Make the Liberator a mid to late game unit to allow Mutas back in ZvT, nerf meditanks to get rid of stupid design and allow more trading ( simple thing like not dropping the tank in siege mode ) , nerf ultralisk because it swings the game to much.
4. Start playing and supporting StarBow instead.
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buffing larvas is one thing, but there are other ways than just a big buff from 3 to 4 larvas. A slight buff to inject (20 energy, less time as an example, numbers can be easily adjusted) would give more larva without breaking the game.
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On July 08 2016 06:26 Rowrin wrote:
On the bright side, it looks like they finally brought back the goliath. It might be a zerg unit now, but at least it's there and better than ever before!
:D
Had a good laugh there :D:
I think buffing the queen range was the completely wrong idea.
Maybe even trying stupid things like "the liberator ability does not work in the range of mineral fields"
or " A terran unit must be standing inside the ring to make them able to hit the target" would have been better.
And for the midgame maybe "damage of overlapping regions does not add" but then buff other units like the Thor (maybe make massive units immune to colossive bile or something like that, and attacking vs air while moving) or so.
On the other hand as many said on master level and mb lower (don't know which are the problems there) its still hell to play terran and without lib backup to siege a position in some scenarios it could get worse.
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On July 08 2016 00:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2016 11:57 Scarlett` wrote:On July 07 2016 11:50 TheWinks wrote:On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them. The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change. Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out. pretty sure queen range didnt cause bl infestor it was just zergs figuring out the meta Broodlord/Infestor was always the superior composition after Snipe nerf. But before queen buff, zerg just had trouble getting there.
No, problem was Zergs didn't even know how to manage their creep properly, 4-6 Queen openings weren't popular back then, but after the patch it became a thing since it was relatively easy to defend just with queens, a few lings and good sim city against BFH. Creep got way better aftr that as now people had lots of Queens at their disposal, enhanced their map vision and made them even safer.
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On July 07 2016 22:57 1 2 1 2 wrote:
What a time to be alive. Back in the days when I was playing Zerg on Xel'Naga Caverns, I remember Hellions outranging my Queens :D
They also outranged Roaches.
On July 07 2016 16:17 Scarlett` wrote:oracles are actually garbage vs zerg now ;o but adepts are still
I agree, but lets circumvent the issue, buff Larvae Inject from 3->4 and decrease Spine Crawler root time to 4 seconds.
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I still want they address medank than queen and spore but ravager still exists so its very hard to balance in all match up.
Ravager and medank case is just like widow mine and muta regen.One bad designed unit created another bad designed bullshit.
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IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers.
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On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers.
sounds totally reasonable
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On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers.
they also shouldn't require creep to burrow.
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On July 08 2016 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers. they also shouldn't require creep to burrow.
that would be so brutally silly. Z would just rush spines in their bases and then blink them towards their powerless opponents. Hilarious.
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Italy12246 Posts
On July 08 2016 21:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers. they also shouldn't require creep to burrow. that would be so brutally silly. Z would just rush spines in their bases and then blink them towards their powerless opponents. Hilarious.
It would be very action packed. Casual spectators would love it.
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On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers.
I'm game. Let's do it.
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On July 08 2016 21:43 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 21:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 08 2016 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers. they also shouldn't require creep to burrow. that would be so brutally silly. Z would just rush spines in their bases and then blink them towards their powerless opponents. Hilarious. It would be very action packed. Casual spectators would love it.
It would be so cool. And imagine spine crawler worker harass, with spines blinking into innocent mineral lines ! Please implement next patch.
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On July 08 2016 21:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 21:43 Teoita wrote:On July 08 2016 21:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 08 2016 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers. they also shouldn't require creep to burrow. that would be so brutally silly. Z would just rush spines in their bases and then blink them towards their powerless opponents. Hilarious. It would be very action packed. Casual spectators would love it. It would be so cool. And imagine spine crawler worker harass, with spines blinking into innocent mineral lines ! Please implement next patch.
I feel like we need this in our lives. SC was incomplete without it.
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On July 08 2016 21:55 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 21:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 08 2016 21:43 Teoita wrote:On July 08 2016 21:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 08 2016 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers. they also shouldn't require creep to burrow. that would be so brutally silly. Z would just rush spines in their bases and then blink them towards their powerless opponents. Hilarious. It would be very action packed. Casual spectators would love it. It would be so cool. And imagine spine crawler worker harass, with spines blinking into innocent mineral lines ! Please implement next patch. I feel like we need this in our lives. SC was incomplete without it.
I'm glad I was able to catalyze this community discussion. Full disclosure: I have never played SC2 before, but I've been watching since WoL and have read a lot of balance threads. For that reason, I feel that I truly understand what the community wants from SC2. I'm confident that I could do a much better job than the SC2 balance team.
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At this point even avilo couldn't do any worse then current design team.
LSN on the other hand has some reasonable suggestions and understands what race design actually is. Wish there was at least one person on their team with similar outlook on things.
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I'm really tempted to just sink some starting capital into starting a Wings of Liberty eSports league at this point, since we should really be reviving the most fun and the least broken version of the game.
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On July 09 2016 10:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm really tempted to just sink some starting capital into starting a Wings of Liberty eSports league at this point, since we should really be reviving the most fun and the least broken version of the game.
By Wings of Liberty, do you mean Heart of the Swarm? xD
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On July 09 2016 10:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm really tempted to just sink some starting capital into starting a Wings of Liberty eSports league at this point, since we should really be reviving the most fun and the least broken version of the game.
I'm in. How much would we need?
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On July 08 2016 21:55 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2016 21:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 08 2016 21:43 Teoita wrote:On July 08 2016 21:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:On July 08 2016 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On July 08 2016 20:54 mikedebo wrote:
IMO we should remove blink from stalkers and give it to the spine and spore crawlers. they also shouldn't require creep to burrow. that would be so brutally silly. Z would just rush spines in their bases and then blink them towards their powerless opponents. Hilarious. It would be very action packed. Casual spectators would love it. It would be so cool. And imagine spine crawler worker harass, with spines blinking into innocent mineral lines ! Please implement next patch. I feel like we need this in our lives. SC was incomplete without it.
This would get me back into competitive starcraft as a viewer. Please implement and do not worry about impact on gameplay.
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On July 09 2016 10:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm really tempted to just sink some starting capital into starting a Wings of Liberty eSports league at this point, since we should really be reviving the most fun and the least broken version of the game.
just patch WoL with 4 range phoenix and projectile fungal and it would actually be pretty interesting
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For a month they just wasted time with this queen buff while there are so many important things to do.
Laziest, most disinterested design/balance team in the history of gaming.
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On July 10 2016 00:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:
For a month they just wasted time with this queen buff while there are so many important things to do.
Laziest, most disinterested design/balance team in the history of gaming.
yeah, they keep focusing on minor details while ignoring basic problems which make the game not fun and/or imbalanced: ravagers, ultralisks, liberators, siegevacs, adepts and tempests.
there is more bad stuff, but they can start fixing that.
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On July 10 2016 00:10 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 10:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm really tempted to just sink some starting capital into starting a Wings of Liberty eSports league at this point, since we should really be reviving the most fun and the least broken version of the game. just patch WoL with 4 range phoenix and projectile fungal and it would actually be pretty interesting
Community balance patches, especially with the existence of extension mods, may be a possibility.
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maybe they could add a matchmaking ladder using a certain extension mod chosen by the community.
people upload their extension mod with some balance tweaks /changes and players vote every week/two weeks to make a certain EM the chosen one to play it on this new ladder for a short period of time.
that way david can let people to improve the game and show new ideas.
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Is there a graph on buffs/nerfs to the Queen vs Bunker ? Which one has been changed the most ?
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On July 09 2016 23:11 Haukinger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2016 10:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm really tempted to just sink some starting capital into starting a Wings of Liberty eSports league at this point, since we should really be reviving the most fun and the least broken version of the game. I'm in. How much would we need?
The best idea would be to start it small with like... a £100 - £150 prize pool for the first season, because too much and you may not attract viewers or even make it remotely break even.
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My experience as a masters Terran
1st TvZ game -> time to do a hellbat+medivac with banshee... ForGG style... oh that got shut down by Mass Queens
2nd TvZ game -> time to do a 2 medivac pressure... oop that's also shut down by Mass Queens
3rd TvZ game -> MECH!?!... oh mass queens can also snipe my vikings that are trying to shoot broodlords...
4th TvZ game -> 3 CC opening into oh yeah i forgot zerg also has ultras
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
most fun and the least broken version of the game
Wings of Liberty
WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well
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On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well
Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?
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On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?
did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?
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On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?
Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 before that GSL and HSC. They didn't go far enough to fix the game because HotS was literally right around the corner.
Also, the game got imbalanced in the first place because Blizzard buffed Queens, and didn't buff harassment units like the Reaper to compensate.
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On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC.
Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. It didn't save us.
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Many people fail to understand a very basic thing: SC2 isn't going to make Blizzard any more money. It's a game you buy once, maybe buy the Nova mission pack, and that's it. Overwatch crates, Hearhtstone, WoW, those can make Blizzard money for years. Remember, it's not Blizzard anymore for years, it's Activision-Blizzard. Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.
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On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC.
I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner.
Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game.
That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame.
The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff.
Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as:
- Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already.
I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES...
And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game.
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On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Many people fail to understand a very basic thing: SC2 isn't going to make Blizzard any more money. It's a game you buy once, maybe buy the Nova mission pack, and that's it. Overwatch crates, Hearhtstone, WoW, those can make Blizzard money for years. Remember, it's not Blizzard anymore for years, it's Activision-Blizzard. Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.
username checks out.
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On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Many people fail to understand a very basic thing: SC2 isn't going to make Blizzard any more money. It's a game you buy once, maybe buy the Nova mission pack, and that's it. Overwatch crates, Hearhtstone, WoW, those can make Blizzard money for years. Remember, it's not Blizzard anymore for years, it's Activision-Blizzard. Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.
Royalties from successful broadcasters such as ESL, MLG and KeSPA on the other hand will.
Also, you seem to think Nova Covert Ops will be Blizzard's first and only mission pack. They're going to release more, and they're likely going to release more Allied Commanders in the months to come.
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Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.
I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience.
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On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.
I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience.
That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks.
Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player.
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On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.
I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience. That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks. Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player.
With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army.
The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper.
if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable.
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On July 10 2016 20:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.
I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience. That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks. Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player. With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army. The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper. if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable.
You are absolutely right, but I think the issue is that the timer is there in the first place. It promotes Zerg play where they just sit back and try to slow the game down, instead of back and forth dynamic games.
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On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner. Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game. That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame. The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff. Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as: - Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already. I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES... And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game.
Agree with everything but the lurkers. They're OK that P finally figured out stuff i suppose.
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On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner. Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game. That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame. The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff. Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as: - Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already. I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES... And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game.
Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them,
CC first got marines,
Gas first got mines
The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO
Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now.
And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard.
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On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.
So THAT is the reason why did all those ladder changes so it will become completely transparent that nobody suggested. How silly of me.
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On July 11 2016 00:28 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner. Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game. That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame. The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff. Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as: - Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already. I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES... And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game. Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them, CC first got marines, Gas first got mines The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now. And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard.
- Problem with the oracle is the fact that it can deal a lot of damage very early on even if terran has turrets and marines. The "norm" for an oracle in this situation is to grab 4-5 kills which is already huge early game considering how much scouting it already allows. For a unit that, if not scouted, has the potential to end the game, that's just silly design wise.
- "Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now." => that's a basic logic fail. Boosted medis are the reason for PO and queen range. Boosted medivacs and PO are terrible design-wise, and they're the reason each other exist.
- And DT may take a little more skill to execute than mine drops. Mine drops difficulty comes from the fact that terran is usually pushing somewhere else while droping mines.
But DTs in the actual state of the game are completely stupid. In WOL, rushing DTs was a gamble in TvP. Now it's just an opening that has the potential to end the game without any sort of skill. Even if terran is prepared, if you just come in after mules were droped and snipe a turret, that's it. Terran can't do shit.
Seen a lot of DTs openings in PL and GSL lately, and i've never ever seen terran end up ahead, no matter how good the defense.
The most hilarious case was maybe Marinelord vs Showtime in WCS qualifiers i think. On Dusk towers, Showtime DTs drops while taking a third. He drops while marinelord is droping his 3rd CC. At the end of the agression, Showtime looses 5 DT + the prisme for a mere 11-12 scvs. That's as good of a defense as you can do as terran. Then Showtime landed only gates, rebuilt a prism, and pushed the terran's 3rd. Mlord had a defensive setup, and lost the fight by a huge margin.
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On July 10 2016 20:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.
I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience. That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks. Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player. With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army. The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper. if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable.
So it wasn't okay for turtle mech in HotS but its ok for hive zerg now?
Theres no excuse "dont let it get there" is not valid nor good design and will never be.
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On July 11 2016 01:08 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 20:45 Charoisaur wrote:On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.
I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience. That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks. Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player. With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army. The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper. if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable. So it wasn't okay for turtle mech in HotS but its ok for hive zerg now? Theres no excuse "dont let it get there" is not valid nor good design and will never be.
I agree but with an ultra nerf the matchup wouldn't be played out as stupidly as it does now.
if broodlord/viper turtle remains an issue it can be adressed later.
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On July 11 2016 01:04 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 00:28 sabas123 wrote:On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner. Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game. That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame. The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff. Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as: - Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already. I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES... And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game. Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them, CC first got marines, Gas first got mines The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now. And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard. The most hilarious case was maybe Marinelord vs Showtime in WCS qualifiers i think. On Dusk towers, Showtime DTs drops while taking a third. He drops while marinelord is droping his 3rd CC. At the end of the agression, Showtime looses 5 DT + the prisme for a mere 11-12 scvs. That's as good of a defense as you can do as terran. Then Showtime landed only gates, rebuilt a prism, and pushed the terran's 3rd. Mlord had a defensive setup, and lost the fight by a huge margin.
Losing 11/12 scvs is certainly not as good of a defense as you can do.
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As I've said before, this fix is not only actually very minor in effect (it's one range vs units that move very quickly and ignore terrain for the most part, maybe a single extra shot, only truly effective when playing the queen vs tankivac-at-edge-of-creep game), but it just ignores the reality that TvZ is all screwed up because of LotV's screwed up timing and role of spire tech. The fact that lair and spire take roughly the same amount of time to get while a big economy and a large basic army come much earlier threw the whole premise of spire tech as a "indirect defense by map control" option out the window. The fact that it is actually dangerous to go two-base spire against a 2.5 base Terran because the mutas pop after you need them to not die to a player that built more economy is seriously wrong. Three-base spire after a roach/ravager opener has virtually no chance of doing damage, delaying Terran's expansion, or accomplishing much of anything, and ling/bling openers get abused by tankivacs. Spire tech basically turned into, "Well, I hope I can catch him on the map with a tankivac or drop, because it I don't, he's going to have the momentum to walk up and kill me before I have hive now."
So now Terran is flying around boosting medivacs and liberators and Zerg has nothing to contest them directly at the phase of the game where they are most impactful. This patch gives something incredibly minor to deal with that, but I can't see Zergs suddenly feeling like they're safe rushing out a spire to contest control of Terran's third and make his army run around for a while. It's the roach/ravager "if I attack first and don't kill him, I lose" weakness that leads to the turtle-to-hive style of play.
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On July 11 2016 01:04 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 00:28 sabas123 wrote:On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner. Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game. That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame. The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff. Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as: - Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already. I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES... And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game. Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them, CC first got marines, Gas first got mines The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now. And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard. - Problem with the oracle is the fact that it can deal a lot of damage very early on even if terran has turrets and marines. The "norm" for an oracle in this situation is to grab 4-5 kills which is already huge early game considering how much scouting it already allows. For a unit that, if not scouted, has the potential to end the game, that's just silly design wise. - "Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now." => that's a basic logic fail. Boosted medis are the reason for PO and queen range. Boosted medivacs and PO are terrible design-wise, and they're the reason each other exist. - And DT may take a little more skill to execute than mine drops. Mine drops difficulty comes from the fact that terran is usually pushing somewhere else while droping mines. But DTs in the actual state of the game are completely stupid. In WOL, rushing DTs was a gamble in TvP. Now it's just an opening that has the potential to end the game without any sort of skill. Even if terran is prepared, if you just come in after mules were droped and snipe a turret, that's it. Terran can't do shit. Seen a lot of DTs openings in PL and GSL lately, and i've never ever seen terran end up ahead, no matter how good the defense. The most hilarious case was maybe Marinelord vs Showtime in WCS qualifiers i think. On Dusk towers, Showtime DTs drops while taking a third. He drops while marinelord is droping his 3rd CC. At the end of the agression, Showtime looses 5 DT + the prisme for a mere 11-12 scvs. That's as good of a defense as you can do as terran. Then Showtime landed only gates, rebuilt a prism, and pushed the terran's 3rd. Mlord had a defensive setup, and lost the fight by a huge margin.
The things you said for the oracles can be applied for alot of units, like a banshees, dts, warp prisms, and mutas if you count mid game.
What you said about PO is incorrect, PO was originally made for PvP in HotS, not for dealing with terran drops.
About the widow mines, most drops are done through dropping at the burrow location or at least near it, then burrow, check if there is some valuable target like alot of probes, burrow, then check if it will hit the target and don't have to burrow. If not unburrow lift it in the medivac, repeat.
vs a unit that has no abilities, has decent movement speed, and nearly 0 micro potential outside of moving outside of detection range.
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What you said about PO is incorrect, PO was originally made for PvP in HotS, not for dealing with terran drops.
do you have a DK quote for that or are you just speculating? I'm pretty sure you are just speculating.
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On July 11 2016 00:31 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre. So THAT is the reason why did all those ladder changes so it will become completely transparent that nobody suggested. How silly of me.
League of Legends is hyper-competitive, therefore that argument is invalid.
It's the only MOBA where you will be flamed, verbally abused, harassed, shat on, and mass reported out of sheer malice for dare selecting a hero based on what you want to play instead of what the meta is and what your team needs.
The game is so disgustingly toxic that I swear Riot should just discontinue LCS and invest those hundreds of millions of eSports dollars into anger management classes or even frontal-lobe lobotomies for its community.
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If i recall correctly, PO was designed in HOTS to allow protosses :
- to deal with terran drop play
- to tone down 1 base vs 1 base play in PvP
- to help hold onto the third nexus in ZvP
Then the adept was, in an implicit way, supposed to give protosses a strong core unit that would trade well in small numbers, making PO less necessary.
But they tossed that in the garbage, along with the promises to make mech viable i suppose
Pylone PO rush on the choke remains a vast joke. I can't believe how anyone can call himself a game designer and allow this BS to stay in the game. How many times have I seen terran pro players just take an enourmous disadvantage by protosses simply scouting early, and if the guy doesn't go for reac expand "oh well i suppose it's time to pay 2 pylones to kill his wall and addons lol". Even in PvP MC abused it to steal games from Zest, the f***ing GSL champion
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On July 11 2016 00:31 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre. So THAT is the reason why did all those ladder changes so it will become completely transparent that nobody suggested. How silly of me.
You realise people have been asking for these changes since WOL, right?
They care so much it only took them 6 years to implement them :^)
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On July 11 2016 03:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +What you said about PO is incorrect, PO was originally made for PvP in HotS, not for dealing with terran drops. do you have a DK quote for that or are you just speculating? I'm pretty sure you are just speculating.
I long thought it was for Terran too (mainly because of this video--jump to 15:33): + Show Spoiler +, but someone eventually pointed me to an earlier video with DK where they specifically said it was for PvP 4 gate.
It still seems weird to me to design something to hold 4 gate when 3 gate robo worked just fine ... but that earlier video was the first time I could find any implementation of PO being referenced. I have trouble locating it today, just as I did originally, but he is correct: the earliest actual video of DK mentions that they designed the ability for PvP.
I still have trouble locating the post where someone corrected me on it, so I don't have the link to the video where DK says this. I looked for about 2 hours, but couldn't find it.
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PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city?
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On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city?
+1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS.
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On July 11 2016 04:27 JackONeill wrote:
If i recall correctly, PO was designed in HOTS to allow protosses :
- to deal with terran drop play
- to tone down 1 base vs 1 base play in PvP
- to help hold onto the third nexus in ZvP
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1. That is why it had such long range, so it could deal with Siege Tanks and it originally gave detection too so it could deal with Banshees. The effects of PO on the Nexus in PvP were muted given the units have such high HP, and it had an outsized effect in PvT and PvZ where the units generally have less HP.
Other changes were more impactful for PvP, such as the addition of the Oracle and detection for the Stargate, Pylon power fields not affecting the high ground and the Tempest countering the Colossus.
EDIT: Apparently, PO, like most things Blizzard comes up with, it evolves overtime because Blizzard doesn't actually know what their game needs. Much like the evolution of the Tempest from a Mutalisk killer to a Siege unit.
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On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS.
PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as:
- The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
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On July 11 2016 09:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1.
I think 1-1-1 was solved in WoL with +1 range in the immortal (so they could attack from behind stalkers) and partially with halluc no longer needing to be researched (so they could scout it easily).
On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:
[*]Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
What an awful analysis, first while you need detection to totally stop all you need to mitigate it is micro and map awereness, you can actually lose 0 workers if you micro with a gas geyser, not to mention PO is not needed at all to stop WM drops because if you don't have detection PO will be useless anyway. Also WM dropping while cheaper is less stream lined as DTs. If anything way more games have been lost because of DTs compared to WM dropping.
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On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS. PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as: - The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
Have you ever heard about immortals, adepts, oracles or WP? You act like P has had an uphill battlle against everything. Get a grasp of reality and notice that P has been doninating for a looong time.
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The main perk for early game in PvT is that robo-twilight obs+blink counters, with overcharge and decent control, every single terran agression, while granting the protoss complete map control until stim finishes.
That's why pro players mostly open blink on agression-friendly map so they can secure a 3rd very easily
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On July 11 2016 12:09 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 09:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1. I think 1-1-1 was solved in WoL with +1 range in the immortal (so they could attack from behind stalkers) and partially with halluc no longer needing to be researched (so they could scout it easily).
That is entirely not true. The +1 range for Immortals did very little, nor did hallucination. To have any chance of beating the 1-1-1 you had to blind counter it from the start, and it happened to work out because the best way to stop the 1-1-1 was a macro opening and you just cut Probes at ~34 and built units if you scouted it coming.
Most of Puma's reign with the 1-1-1 happened with Immortals having 6 range. Map size is what ultimately killed the 1-1-1. It is why you still see Terrans bring it out on Ulrena.
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On July 11 2016 15:20 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS. PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as: - The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
Have you ever heard about immortals, adepts, oracles or WP? You act like P has had an uphill battlle against everything. Get a grasp of reality and notice that P has been doninating for a looong time.
I'm talking about build diversity here, not balance.
Just because you can hold Widow Mines with Robo or Stargate tech doesn't make it good game design.
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On July 12 2016 05:21 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 15:20 RaFox17 wrote:On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS. PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as: - The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
Have you ever heard about immortals, adepts, oracles or WP? You act like P has had an uphill battlle against everything. Get a grasp of reality and notice that P has been doninating for a looong time. I'm talking about build diversity here, not balance, you idiot.
Still think that P is not in a bad place. Carriers and maybe void rays and colossi are a bit rare. All the other units see heavy use in PvX my good sir.
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Carriers have been seen in pro games in PvP every now and then. And colossi are being used very frequently by proplayers from every region (dear vs maru at PL few days ago for instance).
Saw wardii's talkshow with Uthermal and Beastyqt where they said that protoss can use every single unit in pretty much every single matchup with some amount of sucess (which seems to have been backed up by Nerchio too).
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On July 12 2016 01:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 12:09 Lexender wrote:On July 11 2016 09:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1. I think 1-1-1 was solved in WoL with +1 range in the immortal (so they could attack from behind stalkers) and partially with halluc no longer needing to be researched (so they could scout it easily). That is entirely not true. The +1 range for Immortals did very little, nor did hallucination. To have any chance of beating the 1-1-1 you had to blind counter it from the start, and it happened to work out because the best way to stop the 1-1-1 was a macro opening and you just cut Probes at ~34 and built units if you scouted it coming. Most of Puma's reign with the 1-1-1 happened with Immortals having 6 range. Map size is what ultimately killed the 1-1-1. It is why you still see Terrans bring it out on Ulrena.
1-1-1 has always been terrans go to in the early game because of the lack of tech the race has, also 1-1-1 in LotV haves nothing to do with WoL or HotS 1-1-1.
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On July 12 2016 06:15 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2016 01:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 11 2016 12:09 Lexender wrote:On July 11 2016 09:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1. I think 1-1-1 was solved in WoL with +1 range in the immortal (so they could attack from behind stalkers) and partially with halluc no longer needing to be researched (so they could scout it easily). That is entirely not true. The +1 range for Immortals did very little, nor did hallucination. To have any chance of beating the 1-1-1 you had to blind counter it from the start, and it happened to work out because the best way to stop the 1-1-1 was a macro opening and you just cut Probes at ~34 and built units if you scouted it coming. Most of Puma's reign with the 1-1-1 happened with Immortals having 6 range. Map size is what ultimately killed the 1-1-1. It is why you still see Terrans bring it out on Ulrena. 1-1-1 has always been terrans go to in the early game because of the lack of tech the race has, also 1-1-1 in LotV haves nothing to do with WoL or HotS 1-1-1.
Not necessarily true. It may have been a go-to build in TvT, but that was primarily because of how effective Banshee harassment was.
For TvP and TvZ, 1-1-1 was incredibly ineffective prior to LotV, aside from that one time when PuMa invented a 1-1-1 TvP all-in, which faded into irrelevance by late Wings and became obsolete in HotS.
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EPT
