• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:23
CEST 07:23
KST 14:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed10Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll4Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
REAL ILLUMINATI AGENT KAMPALA+256782561496/0756664 Who will win EWC 2025? RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Starcraft in widescreen A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 659 users

Legacy of the Void Balance Update -- July 6, 2016

Forum Index > SC2 General
162 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Siegetank_Dieter
Profile Joined June 2016
45 Posts
July 06 2016 20:39 GMT
#1
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20175310/legacy-of-the-void-balance-update-july-6-2016-7-6-2016

After thorough consideration and reviewing the feedback of players all over the world, we've made a few changes to the balance of the game. We previously tested these changes in the Balance Test Map and are now ready to move forward with them. You can expect to see the following adjustments applied to Legacy of the Void multiplayer today.

Balance Changes

Zerg

Queen:

Anti-air weapon range increased from 7 to 8

Spore Crawler:

Root time decreased from 6 to 4



If you're interested in the StarCraft II Balance Team's reasoning behind each change, you can check out David Kim's recent forum post on the changes.

We continue to appreciate all the feedback we’ve received from the community as it helps shape each of our updates, and we hope you’ll continue to participate in future balance testing. Until next time, we hope you enjoy these changes!

Facebook Twitter Reddit
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
July 06 2016 20:50 GMT
#2
Is this live?

And first, maybe now I can actually use Queens for reliable Liberator killing, Spore change seems meh to be honest.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3367 Posts
July 06 2016 21:01 GMT
#3
It's live.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Siegetank_Dieter
Profile Joined June 2016
45 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-06 21:03:26
July 06 2016 21:02 GMT
#4
i'm not sure what to think about queen buff.

spore buff seems okay.
Hexe
Profile Joined August 2014
United States332 Posts
July 06 2016 21:33 GMT
#5
I remember when spores and spines took 30 seconds or a year
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
July 06 2016 21:40 GMT
#6
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers.
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16692 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-06 21:51:29
July 06 2016 21:45 GMT
#7
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.

On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers.

i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches.

DKs BNet Forum Post
for those of you at work or school with BNet blocked ... here u go people...
+ Show Spoiler +

Patch next week
After more playtests and more discussions with various people, we believe that it’ll be better to patch the current two changes to the live game sooner than later given the current situation. However, we do also want to point out that we definitely see the foreign community’s concern regarding the Queen buff, and we will definitely make sure to react quick if something breaks. But the two main reasons we would like to hurry up with this update is due to heavy feedback in favor of these changes on the KR pro side, and we also have a major tournament coming up in 2-3 weeks outside of Korea, so we would really love to push the change out to live as quickly as possible so that we can make necessary fixes before the WCS tournament if needed. So looking at this from both regions, it looks to be the right decision to patch quickly.

After the patch next week
We definitely hear your feedback regarding the potential for Ultralisk armor needing nerfs and the Liberator needing nerfs. We would really love to look at the impact of the Spore and Queen changes first before we start testing further changes. For example, if Zerg is performing much better in the early/mid game and are dominating in the late game, we can definitely take a look at the Ultralisk armor nerf, whereas if these changes were steps in the right direction but not enough, we can look at potential Liberator +light damage removal to its AA weapon.

Playing Skill vs. Game Design Skill
It’s been a while since we discussed more design philosophy based topics, and we noticed a topic being very big in the past couple weeks, so we wanted to share our thoughts regarding this. Specifically, we’re seeing a lot of posts discussing the importance of playing at a high skill level in order to be a good game designer.

Our thought is that these two have some overlap, but are different skillsets. We have seen so many examples of every mix of the two: A top player being so bad at game analysis, a top player being so good at game analysis, a bad player being so good at game design, and a bad player being also bad at game design. They’re just separate skills that one person can be good at none, one, or both of them. And the definition of a good player is so opinion based. For example, I’m currently in master league using random and if I say this to a pro player, they would think I’m pretty bad at the game. As compared to if I say this to a silver level player, they would think I’m good at the game.

The same goes for game design skills. Often times, game design skills are more difficult to quantify than say like awesome concept art skills or awesome programming skills. Interestingly, this is an area game designers on our team have a lot of discussions on regarding what an ideal game designer at Blizzard is, which is another fun topic that we can go into if there is desire for it for this in a future weekly update. And going more into detail on this current topic, the important thing for game designers working on SC2 is the ability to analyze game mechanics well. This is clearly a higher priority than playing the game at a pro level.

Just to finish off, we did want to ask a question that we ask ourselves often: In a perfect world scenario, would it be best to aim to have only game designers who are also the very best players at the game? Granted this might be near impossible to achieve, it is an interesting question because we can look at it from many different points of view. For example, I can argue that this is the best because the best player understand more parts of playing the game so he can analyze the game better as well. But I can also argue this isn’t ideal because he would be unable to see the game from a different perspective other than the top skill level, and the more ideal is to have a good mix of every type of gamer who all are good game designers.

We wanted to share our thoughts here because this is a fun topic to discuss, and we’ve also been leaning a bit more towards one way or another over the years on our team as well. Because there necessarily isn’t one, clear, perfect answer to this question, please let us know your thoughts as well and we will look forward to exploring this discussion from a potentially different angle!
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
July 06 2016 21:48 GMT
#8
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.


Stalker AA-vs-light buff next up?
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
ShamanElemental1
Profile Joined April 2016
56 Posts
July 06 2016 21:49 GMT
#9
This buff is a joke for anyone who really tried the change in the balance test.

- it doesnt help against liberator at all
- it only helps a bit vs oracles and medivacs who are already very strong

And above else it promotes turtle.

Why would i go harass and counter when i have to defend meditanks/liberators/medivacs or oracles/phoenix/adepts

It doesnt fix shit in nerfing Terran midgame or making LBM a viable strategy.
Odowan Paleolithic
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
United States232 Posts
July 06 2016 21:50 GMT
#10
RIP carriers and oracles. The former will have to face queen fire when launching interceptors normally, the later can no longer face queen 1 on 1.
I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16692 Posts
July 06 2016 21:50 GMT
#11
On July 07 2016 06:48 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.


Stalker AA-vs-light buff next up?


i only play as Protoss 20% of the time and i'm in Diamond ... so i'm not really the guy to ask. what do u think about it?
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
mCon.Hephaistas
Profile Joined May 2014
Netherlands891 Posts
July 06 2016 21:52 GMT
#12
Still don't think these changes are the right way to go, it will just promote turtle play and let's them get to ultras a bit easier.

Zerg midgame is still non existent in ZvT.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3367 Posts
July 06 2016 21:53 GMT
#13
On July 07 2016 06:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.

Show nested quote +
On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers.

i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches.

DKs BNet Forum Post
for those of you at work or school with BNet blocked ... here u go people...
+ Show Spoiler +

Patch next week
After more playtests and more discussions with various people, we believe that it’ll be better to patch the current two changes to the live game sooner than later given the current situation. However, we do also want to point out that we definitely see the foreign community’s concern regarding the Queen buff, and we will definitely make sure to react quick if something breaks. But the two main reasons we would like to hurry up with this update is due to heavy feedback in favor of these changes on the KR pro side, and we also have a major tournament coming up in 2-3 weeks outside of Korea, so we would really love to push the change out to live as quickly as possible so that we can make necessary fixes before the WCS tournament if needed. So looking at this from both regions, it looks to be the right decision to patch quickly.

After the patch next week
We definitely hear your feedback regarding the potential for Ultralisk armor needing nerfs and the Liberator needing nerfs. We would really love to look at the impact of the Spore and Queen changes first before we start testing further changes. For example, if Zerg is performing much better in the early/mid game and are dominating in the late game, we can definitely take a look at the Ultralisk armor nerf, whereas if these changes were steps in the right direction but not enough, we can look at potential Liberator +light damage removal to its AA weapon.

Playing Skill vs. Game Design Skill
It’s been a while since we discussed more design philosophy based topics, and we noticed a topic being very big in the past couple weeks, so we wanted to share our thoughts regarding this. Specifically, we’re seeing a lot of posts discussing the importance of playing at a high skill level in order to be a good game designer.

Our thought is that these two have some overlap, but are different skillsets. We have seen so many examples of every mix of the two: A top player being so bad at game analysis, a top player being so good at game analysis, a bad player being so good at game design, and a bad player being also bad at game design. They’re just separate skills that one person can be good at none, one, or both of them. And the definition of a good player is so opinion based. For example, I’m currently in master league using random and if I say this to a pro player, they would think I’m pretty bad at the game. As compared to if I say this to a silver level player, they would think I’m good at the game.

The same goes for game design skills. Often times, game design skills are more difficult to quantify than say like awesome concept art skills or awesome programming skills. Interestingly, this is an area game designers on our team have a lot of discussions on regarding what an ideal game designer at Blizzard is, which is another fun topic that we can go into if there is desire for it for this in a future weekly update. And going more into detail on this current topic, the important thing for game designers working on SC2 is the ability to analyze game mechanics well. This is clearly a higher priority than playing the game at a pro level.

Just to finish off, we did want to ask a question that we ask ourselves often: In a perfect world scenario, would it be best to aim to have only game designers who are also the very best players at the game? Granted this might be near impossible to achieve, it is an interesting question because we can look at it from many different points of view. For example, I can argue that this is the best because the best player understand more parts of playing the game so he can analyze the game better as well. But I can also argue this isn’t ideal because he would be unable to see the game from a different perspective other than the top skill level, and the more ideal is to have a good mix of every type of gamer who all are good game designers.

We wanted to share our thoughts here because this is a fun topic to discuss, and we’ve also been leaning a bit more towards one way or another over the years on our team as well. Because there necessarily isn’t one, clear, perfect answer to this question, please let us know your thoughts as well and we will look forward to exploring this discussion from a potentially different angle!

Don't you think they should target the air units though?
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Zulu23
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-06 22:00:52
July 06 2016 21:59 GMT
#14
I cant belive that both modifications make it to the game without any other compensation...
The queen will become the new marine
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8230 Posts
July 06 2016 22:02 GMT
#15
This occurred right after the first GSL group was played... Not that it would have made a difference but the timing is a bit poor.
SetGuitarsToKill
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
Canada28396 Posts
July 06 2016 22:10 GMT
#16
On July 07 2016 07:02 geokilla wrote:
This occurred right after the first GSL group was played... Not that it would have made a difference but the timing is a bit poor.

I'm sure Solar is furious and he had every right to be
Community News"As long as you have a warp prism you can't be bad at harassment" - Maru | @SetGuitars2Kill
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
July 06 2016 22:15 GMT
#17
TBH I have no idea how this will affect Korea, it could be almost unnoticeable or it could be the old Queen patch all over again, but I feel certain it's a huge buff to foreign zerg's (I.e. Snute) defensive styles where they're already performing pretty well. Spore buff especially is a big deal vs Liberators imo.
In Somnis Veritas
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
July 06 2016 22:18 GMT
#18
On July 07 2016 06:48 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.


Stalker AA-vs-light buff next up?


It's absolutely needed because phoenixes (in team games especially) and mutalisks laugh at stalkers. I'm 1vs1 low masters protoss, but stalkers have been weak against light air units since WoL.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
July 06 2016 22:20 GMT
#19
Oracles too. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/505739-a-change-to-the-oracle

I think changing oracle is the wrong way to go about things and stalker is overdue for its anti-light AA hitting for closer to its anti-armor AA damage.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
OrangeGarage
Profile Joined October 2015
Korea (South)319 Posts
July 06 2016 22:27 GMT
#20
Hi, TL! I come from near distant future 3 seasons after this patch.
1. Zerg Users: I feel the new AA buff for zerg promotes only Roach ravager play and I can't use mutas anymore its so unfair and everything sucks wah wah wah
2. DK buffs mutas
3. Toss, Terran players: Mutas are too strong they don't even die anymore seriously screw this we need buffs
4. DK buffs libs and photon overcharge
5. Toss, Zerg players: wah wah libs are too strong again we need buffs
Terran, Zerg players: PO is now one click defense against anything blah bla
I have warned you all.
I am drone! My dream is Hatchery!
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 10h 37m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 273
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 27270
Sea 15129
Backho 155
Mind 50
Sacsri 20
Noble 16
Bale 14
Icarus 10
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm124
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1464
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King84
Other Games
summit1g11913
hungrybox429
RuFF_SC251
CosmosSc2 32
Trikslyr30
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2826
BasetradeTV18
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH367
• Light_VIP 63
• practicex 46
• OhrlRock 4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1318
• Stunt400
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
10h 37m
Replay Cast
18h 37m
The PondCast
1d 4h
OSC
1d 7h
WardiTV European League
1d 10h
Replay Cast
1d 18h
Epic.LAN
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Epic.LAN
3 days
CSO Contender
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Online Event
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
6 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.