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Legacy of the Void Balance Update -- July 6, 2016 - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
162 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 Next All
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
July 09 2016 18:43 GMT
#121
On July 09 2016 23:11 Haukinger wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 09 2016 10:50 Clbull wrote:
I'm really tempted to just sink some starting capital into starting a Wings of Liberty eSports league at this point, since we should really be reviving the most fun and the least broken version of the game.


I'm in. How much would we need?

The best idea would be to start it small with like... a £100 - £150 prize pool for the first season, because too much and you may not attract viewers or even make it remotely break even.
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
July 09 2016 20:13 GMT
#122
My experience as a masters Terran

1st TvZ game -> time to do a hellbat+medivac with banshee... ForGG style... oh that got shut down by Mass Queens
2nd TvZ game -> time to do a 2 medivac pressure... oop that's also shut down by Mass Queens
3rd TvZ game -> MECH!?!... oh mass queens can also snipe my vikings that are trying to shoot broodlords...
4th TvZ game -> 3 CC opening into oh yeah i forgot zerg also has ultras
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-09 20:23:43
July 09 2016 20:23 GMT
#123
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
July 09 2016 21:35 GMT
#124
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
Show nested quote +
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Show nested quote +
Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
July 09 2016 21:37 GMT
#125
On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?

did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-09 22:14:11
July 09 2016 22:07 GMT
#126
On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?

did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?

Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 before that GSL and HSC. They didn't go far enough to fix the game because HotS was literally right around the corner.

Also, the game got imbalanced in the first place because Blizzard buffed Queens, and didn't buff harassment units like the Reaper to compensate.

ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-09 22:15:17
July 09 2016 22:13 GMT
#127
On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?

did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?

Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC.



Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. It didn't save us.
ihatevideogames
Profile Joined August 2015
570 Posts
July 09 2016 23:01 GMT
#128
Many people fail to understand a very basic thing: SC2 isn't going to make Blizzard any more money. It's a game you buy once, maybe buy the Nova mission pack, and that's it. Overwatch crates, Hearhtstone, WoW, those can make Blizzard money for years. Remember, it's not Blizzard anymore for years, it's Activision-Blizzard. Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-09 23:59:51
July 09 2016 23:36 GMT
#129
On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?

did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?

Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC.



Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC.

I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner.

Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game.

That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame.

The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff.

Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as:
  • Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
  • Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
  • Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
  • Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
  • Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
  • Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
  • Warp Prism range drops.
  • Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
  • Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.

The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already.

I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES...

And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game.
biomech
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany380 Posts
July 09 2016 23:59 GMT
#130
On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Many people fail to understand a very basic thing: SC2 isn't going to make Blizzard any more money. It's a game you buy once, maybe buy the Nova mission pack, and that's it. Overwatch crates, Hearhtstone, WoW, those can make Blizzard money for years. Remember, it's not Blizzard anymore for years, it's Activision-Blizzard. Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.


username checks out.
Clbull
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-10 00:07:23
July 10 2016 00:06 GMT
#131
On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Many people fail to understand a very basic thing: SC2 isn't going to make Blizzard any more money. It's a game you buy once, maybe buy the Nova mission pack, and that's it. Overwatch crates, Hearhtstone, WoW, those can make Blizzard money for years. Remember, it's not Blizzard anymore for years, it's Activision-Blizzard. Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.

Royalties from successful broadcasters such as ESL, MLG and KeSPA on the other hand will.

Also, you seem to think Nova Covert Ops will be Blizzard's first and only mission pack. They're going to release more, and they're likely going to release more Allied Commanders in the months to come.
PinoKotsBeer
Profile Joined February 2014
Netherlands1385 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-10 11:07:05
July 10 2016 10:57 GMT
#132
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.

I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience.
http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3371 Posts
July 10 2016 11:35 GMT
#133
On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.

I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience.

That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks.
Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15928 Posts
July 10 2016 11:45 GMT
#134
On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.

I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience.

That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks.
Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player.

With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army.
The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper.
if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3371 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-10 11:57:08
July 10 2016 11:56 GMT
#135
On July 10 2016 20:45 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:
On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.

I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience.

That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks.
Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player.

With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army.
The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper.
if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable.

You are absolutely right, but I think the issue is that the timer is there in the first place. It promotes Zerg play where they just sit back and try to slow the game down, instead of back and forth dynamic games.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
July 10 2016 14:18 GMT
#136
On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?

did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?

Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC.



Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC.

I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner.

Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game.

That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame.

The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff.

Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as:
  • Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
  • Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
  • Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
  • Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
  • Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
  • Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
  • Warp Prism range drops.
  • Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
  • Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.

The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already.

I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES...

And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game.


Agree with everything but the lurkers. They're OK that P finally figured out stuff i suppose.
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
July 10 2016 15:28 GMT
#137
On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?

did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?

Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC.



Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC.

I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner.

Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game.

That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame.

The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff.

Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as:
  • Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
  • Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
  • Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
  • Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
  • Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
  • Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
  • Warp Prism range drops.
  • Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
  • Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.

The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already.

I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES...

And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game.

Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them,
CC first got marines,
Gas first got mines
The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO

Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now.

And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard.

The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-10 15:32:22
July 10 2016 15:31 GMT
#138
On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre.

So THAT is the reason why did all those ladder changes so it will become completely transparent that nobody suggested. How silly of me.
The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
July 10 2016 16:04 GMT
#139
On July 11 2016 00:28 sabas123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:
On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:
On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:
most fun and the least broken version of the game


Wings of Liberty


WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well

Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome?

did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL?

Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC.



Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC.

I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner.

Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game.

That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame.

The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff.

Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as:
  • Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
  • Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
  • Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
  • Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
  • Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
  • Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
  • Warp Prism range drops.
  • Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
  • Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.

The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already.

I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES...

And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game.

Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them,
CC first got marines,
Gas first got mines
The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO

Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now.

And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard.



- Problem with the oracle is the fact that it can deal a lot of damage very early on even if terran has turrets and marines. The "norm" for an oracle in this situation is to grab 4-5 kills which is already huge early game considering how much scouting it already allows. For a unit that, if not scouted, has the potential to end the game, that's just silly design wise.

- "Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now." => that's a basic logic fail. Boosted medis are the reason for PO and queen range. Boosted medivacs and PO are terrible design-wise, and they're the reason each other exist.

- And DT may take a little more skill to execute than mine drops. Mine drops difficulty comes from the fact that terran is usually pushing somewhere else while droping mines.
But DTs in the actual state of the game are completely stupid. In WOL, rushing DTs was a gamble in TvP. Now it's just an opening that has the potential to end the game without any sort of skill. Even if terran is prepared, if you just come in after mules were droped and snipe a turret, that's it. Terran can't do shit.
Seen a lot of DTs openings in PL and GSL lately, and i've never ever seen terran end up ahead, no matter how good the defense.
The most hilarious case was maybe Marinelord vs Showtime in WCS qualifiers i think. On Dusk towers, Showtime DTs drops while taking a third. He drops while marinelord is droping his 3rd CC. At the end of the agression, Showtime looses 5 DT + the prisme for a mere 11-12 scvs. That's as good of a defense as you can do as terran. Then Showtime landed only gates, rebuilt a prism, and pushed the terran's 3rd. Mlord had a defensive setup, and lost the fight by a huge margin.
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2627 Posts
July 10 2016 16:08 GMT
#140
On July 10 2016 20:45 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:
On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.

I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience.

That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks.
Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player.

With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army.
The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper.
if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable.


So it wasn't okay for turtle mech in HotS but its ok for hive zerg now?

Theres no excuse "dont let it get there" is not valid nor good design and will never be.
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