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On July 11 2016 01:08 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 20:45 Charoisaur wrote:On July 10 2016 20:35 ejozl wrote:On July 10 2016 19:57 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Not sure if i have to laugh or cry really hard. Broodlord with their 16% range buff due lotv, queen buff, infestor neural parasite buff and hyper fast spores with swarmhost and parasitic bomb that cant be dodged. Thanks blizzard, well done, bravo, bis, encore, the same mistake again. Fan fcking tastic the state of the game below the 0.000001% of top tier players.
I really wish i didnt like the game during HOTS, would make it much easier to dump sc2 and do something fun instead of this frustrating experience. That's the true evil of TvZ. Ultras sure are strong and Bio can become useless, but even if Ultras were not a thing. Zerg is still unbeatable late game and that is due to their air+anti air, not because of Ultralisks. Not saying that Zerg is stronger % win wise, but I would just hate to play on a timer, if I were a Terran player. With weaker ultras it would be far easier to kill the zerg before he gets to his ultimate air army. The problem right now is that once ultras are out you have to sit in your base turtling with liberators while the zerg can freely tech to broodlord viper. if ultras wouldn't make bio useless the timer in which you can win would be far longer and you could also pull the zerg apart with drops since they can't just put 1 ultra at an expansion to make it unharassable. So it wasn't okay for turtle mech in HotS but its ok for hive zerg now? Theres no excuse "dont let it get there" is not valid nor good design and will never be.
I agree but with an ultra nerf the matchup wouldn't be played out as stupidly as it does now.
if broodlord/viper turtle remains an issue it can be adressed later.
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On July 11 2016 01:04 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 00:28 sabas123 wrote:On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner. Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game. That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame. The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff. Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as: - Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already. I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES... And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game. Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them, CC first got marines, Gas first got mines The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now. And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard. The most hilarious case was maybe Marinelord vs Showtime in WCS qualifiers i think. On Dusk towers, Showtime DTs drops while taking a third. He drops while marinelord is droping his 3rd CC. At the end of the agression, Showtime looses 5 DT + the prisme for a mere 11-12 scvs. That's as good of a defense as you can do as terran. Then Showtime landed only gates, rebuilt a prism, and pushed the terran's 3rd. Mlord had a defensive setup, and lost the fight by a huge margin.
Losing 11/12 scvs is certainly not as good of a defense as you can do.
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As I've said before, this fix is not only actually very minor in effect (it's one range vs units that move very quickly and ignore terrain for the most part, maybe a single extra shot, only truly effective when playing the queen vs tankivac-at-edge-of-creep game), but it just ignores the reality that TvZ is all screwed up because of LotV's screwed up timing and role of spire tech. The fact that lair and spire take roughly the same amount of time to get while a big economy and a large basic army come much earlier threw the whole premise of spire tech as a "indirect defense by map control" option out the window. The fact that it is actually dangerous to go two-base spire against a 2.5 base Terran because the mutas pop after you need them to not die to a player that built more economy is seriously wrong. Three-base spire after a roach/ravager opener has virtually no chance of doing damage, delaying Terran's expansion, or accomplishing much of anything, and ling/bling openers get abused by tankivacs. Spire tech basically turned into, "Well, I hope I can catch him on the map with a tankivac or drop, because it I don't, he's going to have the momentum to walk up and kill me before I have hive now."
So now Terran is flying around boosting medivacs and liberators and Zerg has nothing to contest them directly at the phase of the game where they are most impactful. This patch gives something incredibly minor to deal with that, but I can't see Zergs suddenly feeling like they're safe rushing out a spire to contest control of Terran's third and make his army run around for a while. It's the roach/ravager "if I attack first and don't kill him, I lose" weakness that leads to the turtle-to-hive style of play.
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On July 11 2016 01:04 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 00:28 sabas123 wrote:On July 10 2016 08:36 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 07:13 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On July 10 2016 07:07 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 06:37 Ej_ wrote:On July 10 2016 06:35 Clbull wrote:On July 10 2016 05:23 Cyro wrote:most fun and the least broken version of the game Wings of Liberty WOL was probably the most broken period of sc2's history though it was evolving much faster. The skill floor and ceiling were both lower as well Yeah, a year of 'patchzerg' dominance that Korean Terran and Protoss players were somehow able to overcome? did you hibernate for the last GSLs of WoL? Blizzard did a 1 range nerf to Fungal Growth to nerf its range from 9 to 8 after that GSL and after HSC. Path 1.5.3 was before the last two WoL GSLs and HSC. I just edited my comment, having looked into that. Still, Blizzard didn't fix the one balance problem causing Zerg dominance because HotS was literally around the corner. Zerg got so powerful because they could make nothing but Queens and Drones, get a huge economic lead and tech to 14 minute Infestor Brood Lord without repercussions all because of the Queen range buff in the Patch 1.4.3 Balance Update which made Queens soft-counter not just Hellions but virtually anything Protoss and Terran opponents could throw at them in the early game. That balance update alone was why PvZ descended into PartinG style Sentry Immortal all-ins, because they were the only thing that could bust an economic Zerg midgame. The better solution to solve the issue of early game Hellion harassment in TvZ would have been to nerf the Hellion's damage to Light units pre-blue flame, or to buff Roaches to be more useful against Terran, perhaps with a minor Armor buff. Also, WoL even in its Zerg-favoured state is far more fun than the bullcrap, frustrating game design of LotV, where not opening in a VERY specific manner leads to hard counters and build order losses such as: - Really cheap Siegeivac/Liberator drop cheese build, which hard-counter opponents that lack decent anti-air defences such as Ravagers, Corruptors, or mass Queens.
- Oracle harassment, which leads to really cheap build order loss in TvP if you don't have a Cyclone or a Missile Turret in each mineral line..
- Ultralisks. With their incredibly overpowered maximum armor of 8, and the neutering of Marauder attack damage, this basically means that Ultralisks will take 10 less damage per attack (or over a 50% loss in effective Marauder DPS against Ultralisks) in comparison to HotS when Ultralisk vs MMMM was actually BALANCED in the late game... The only way to actually counter Ultralisks at this point is the Liberator and anybody with half a brain, a half-decent bank and some larvae to make mass Corruptors will WTFPWN them in an instant.
- Widow Mine drops. They don't take much of a tech effort to pull off unlike Dark Templar harassment, and will lead to a virtual build order loss if you do not have detection to defend against them. Imagine what Dark Templar would be like if they could be built after finishing a Cybernetics Core, cost half as much gas, and if Warp Prisms could stim. That's what Widow Mine drops feel like.
- Stimivacs. Seriously, drops were fine in Wings of Liberty, because players generally relied on the element of surprise to land them, and on intelligent placement of static defences and defending units to hold them. As of HotS, Medivacs can stim, allowing them to bypass even intelligently placed static defences without dying outright. This also led to the PvT metagame revolving heavily around Blink Stalkers, because they were the only unit mobile and powerful enough to consistently defend against boosted Medivac drops.
- Ravager busts, which have single handedly killed the Forge Fast Expand build in PvZ, thanks to the overpowered Corrosive Bile bombardment ability being able to outrange the Photon Cannons and destroy the Pylons powering them. Oh, and they're a massive problem in TvZ as well, which can only be held reliably in the early-mid game with Banshees that can actually dodge their volleys, while Siege Tanks and Liberators are simply too immobile to dodge bile.
- Warp Prism range drops.
- Photon Overcharge. Both the HotS and LotV iterations of this ability are horribad, because of how effectively and effortlessly they hold aggression.
- Lurkers. As much as I like their return to the game, giving them MORE range than a Colossus is stupid. They basically mean that if you don't build zone controlling splash units of your own, like Disruptors or Siege Tanks, you're dead.
The list of my grievances with LotV only goes on. It's not fun to play. In fact, the frustration of trying to ladder even at the low league levels is so bad that I've been driven to uninstall it three times already. I've actually been doing a lot of Wings of Liberty ladder as of late and I've found it so much more fun. Legacy of the Void on the other hand has more cheap deaths than Silver Surfer on the NES... And you know what? Map design could have probably fixed a lot of WoL's balance and game design issues as well. Even in the dreaded 'patchzerg' era, there were still Terran favoured maps in the pool such as Metropolis where Terran opponents could genuinely contend with a Zerg late game. Oracles in tvp is not that big of a deal since nearly every major build has a good answer for them, CC first got marines, Gas first got mines The only one that has to build turrets are often the reaper -> factory builds / reactor hellion builds which is fine IMO Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now. And the widow mine drop taking less amount of effort compared to dt harrash is the most ludicrous statement if ever heard. - Problem with the oracle is the fact that it can deal a lot of damage very early on even if terran has turrets and marines. The "norm" for an oracle in this situation is to grab 4-5 kills which is already huge early game considering how much scouting it already allows. For a unit that, if not scouted, has the potential to end the game, that's just silly design wise. - "Boosted medivacs aren't really that big of a deal considering how strong pylon overcharge or massive queen range is now." => that's a basic logic fail. Boosted medis are the reason for PO and queen range. Boosted medivacs and PO are terrible design-wise, and they're the reason each other exist. - And DT may take a little more skill to execute than mine drops. Mine drops difficulty comes from the fact that terran is usually pushing somewhere else while droping mines. But DTs in the actual state of the game are completely stupid. In WOL, rushing DTs was a gamble in TvP. Now it's just an opening that has the potential to end the game without any sort of skill. Even if terran is prepared, if you just come in after mules were droped and snipe a turret, that's it. Terran can't do shit. Seen a lot of DTs openings in PL and GSL lately, and i've never ever seen terran end up ahead, no matter how good the defense. The most hilarious case was maybe Marinelord vs Showtime in WCS qualifiers i think. On Dusk towers, Showtime DTs drops while taking a third. He drops while marinelord is droping his 3rd CC. At the end of the agression, Showtime looses 5 DT + the prisme for a mere 11-12 scvs. That's as good of a defense as you can do as terran. Then Showtime landed only gates, rebuilt a prism, and pushed the terran's 3rd. Mlord had a defensive setup, and lost the fight by a huge margin.
The things you said for the oracles can be applied for alot of units, like a banshees, dts, warp prisms, and mutas if you count mid game.
What you said about PO is incorrect, PO was originally made for PvP in HotS, not for dealing with terran drops.
About the widow mines, most drops are done through dropping at the burrow location or at least near it, then burrow, check if there is some valuable target like alot of probes, burrow, then check if it will hit the target and don't have to burrow. If not unburrow lift it in the medivac, repeat.
vs a unit that has no abilities, has decent movement speed, and nearly 0 micro potential outside of moving outside of detection range.
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What you said about PO is incorrect, PO was originally made for PvP in HotS, not for dealing with terran drops.
do you have a DK quote for that or are you just speculating? I'm pretty sure you are just speculating.
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On July 11 2016 00:31 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre. So THAT is the reason why did all those ladder changes so it will become completely transparent that nobody suggested. How silly of me.
League of Legends is hyper-competitive, therefore that argument is invalid.
It's the only MOBA where you will be flamed, verbally abused, harassed, shat on, and mass reported out of sheer malice for dare selecting a hero based on what you want to play instead of what the meta is and what your team needs.
The game is so disgustingly toxic that I swear Riot should just discontinue LCS and invest those hundreds of millions of eSports dollars into anger management classes or even frontal-lobe lobotomies for its community.
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If i recall correctly, PO was designed in HOTS to allow protosses :
- to deal with terran drop play
- to tone down 1 base vs 1 base play in PvP
- to help hold onto the third nexus in ZvP
Then the adept was, in an implicit way, supposed to give protosses a strong core unit that would trade well in small numbers, making PO less necessary.
But they tossed that in the garbage, along with the promises to make mech viable i suppose
Pylone PO rush on the choke remains a vast joke. I can't believe how anyone can call himself a game designer and allow this BS to stay in the game. How many times have I seen terran pro players just take an enourmous disadvantage by protosses simply scouting early, and if the guy doesn't go for reac expand "oh well i suppose it's time to pay 2 pylones to kill his wall and addons lol". Even in PvP MC abused it to steal games from Zest, the f***ing GSL champion
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570 Posts
On July 11 2016 00:31 sabas123 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2016 08:01 ihatevideogames wrote:
Of course they won't give a fuck about a hyper-competitve game with a small following in a dead genre. So THAT is the reason why did all those ladder changes so it will become completely transparent that nobody suggested. How silly of me.
You realise people have been asking for these changes since WOL, right?
They care so much it only took them 6 years to implement them :^)
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On July 11 2016 03:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +What you said about PO is incorrect, PO was originally made for PvP in HotS, not for dealing with terran drops. do you have a DK quote for that or are you just speculating? I'm pretty sure you are just speculating.
I long thought it was for Terran too (mainly because of this video--jump to 15:33): + Show Spoiler +, but someone eventually pointed me to an earlier video with DK where they specifically said it was for PvP 4 gate.
It still seems weird to me to design something to hold 4 gate when 3 gate robo worked just fine ... but that earlier video was the first time I could find any implementation of PO being referenced. I have trouble locating it today, just as I did originally, but he is correct: the earliest actual video of DK mentions that they designed the ability for PvP.
I still have trouble locating the post where someone corrected me on it, so I don't have the link to the video where DK says this.  I looked for about 2 hours, but couldn't find it.
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PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city?
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On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city?
+1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS.
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On July 11 2016 04:27 JackONeill wrote:
If i recall correctly, PO was designed in HOTS to allow protosses :
- to deal with terran drop play
- to tone down 1 base vs 1 base play in PvP
- to help hold onto the third nexus in ZvP
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1. That is why it had such long range, so it could deal with Siege Tanks and it originally gave detection too so it could deal with Banshees. The effects of PO on the Nexus in PvP were muted given the units have such high HP, and it had an outsized effect in PvT and PvZ where the units generally have less HP.
Other changes were more impactful for PvP, such as the addition of the Oracle and detection for the Stargate, Pylon power fields not affecting the high ground and the Tempest countering the Colossus.
EDIT: Apparently, PO, like most things Blizzard comes up with, it evolves overtime because Blizzard doesn't actually know what their game needs. Much like the evolution of the Tempest from a Mutalisk killer to a Siege unit.
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On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS.
PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as:
- The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
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On July 11 2016 09:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1.
I think 1-1-1 was solved in WoL with +1 range in the immortal (so they could attack from behind stalkers) and partially with halluc no longer needing to be researched (so they could scout it easily).
On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:
[*]Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
What an awful analysis, first while you need detection to totally stop all you need to mitigate it is micro and map awereness, you can actually lose 0 workers if you micro with a gas geyser, not to mention PO is not needed at all to stop WM drops because if you don't have detection PO will be useless anyway. Also WM dropping while cheaper is less stream lined as DTs. If anything way more games have been lost because of DTs compared to WM dropping.
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On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS. PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as: - The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
Have you ever heard about immortals, adepts, oracles or WP? You act like P has had an uphill battlle against everything. Get a grasp of reality and notice that P has been doninating for a looong time.
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The main perk for early game in PvT is that robo-twilight obs+blink counters, with overcharge and decent control, every single terran agression, while granting the protoss complete map control until stim finishes.
That's why pro players mostly open blink on agression-friendly map so they can secure a 3rd very easily
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On July 11 2016 12:09 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 09:10 BronzeKnee wrote:
The main reason it was added was to stop the 1-1-1. I think 1-1-1 was solved in WoL with +1 range in the immortal (so they could attack from behind stalkers) and partially with halluc no longer needing to be researched (so they could scout it easily).
That is entirely not true. The +1 range for Immortals did very little, nor did hallucination. To have any chance of beating the 1-1-1 you had to blind counter it from the start, and it happened to work out because the best way to stop the 1-1-1 was a macro opening and you just cut Probes at ~34 and built units if you scouted it coming.
Most of Puma's reign with the 1-1-1 happened with Immortals having 6 range. Map size is what ultimately killed the 1-1-1. It is why you still see Terrans bring it out on Ulrena.
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On July 11 2016 15:20 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS. PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as: - The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
Have you ever heard about immortals, adepts, oracles or WP? You act like P has had an uphill battlle against everything. Get a grasp of reality and notice that P has been doninating for a looong time.
I'm talking about build diversity here, not balance.
Just because you can hold Widow Mines with Robo or Stargate tech doesn't make it good game design.
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On July 12 2016 05:21 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2016 15:20 RaFox17 wrote:On July 11 2016 10:05 Clbull wrote:On July 11 2016 08:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On July 11 2016 07:14 Creager wrote:
PO was implemented to enable other builds than FFE, which was the only viable macro BO in WoL. Remember when maps had to have small ramps so Protoss actually had a chance to defend with Sentries and sim city? +1, that is why i think PO was added into HotS. PO added build diversity to Protoss, which was later taken away by ridiculously untuned and badly designed HotS and LotV units such as: - The HotS/LotV variant of the Medivac, because Blink Stalker builds were the only way to reliably hold stimmed dropship harassment. While Sentry/Zealot/Colossus was once a viable midgame composition for PvT, doing that since HotS became a death sentence.
- Ravagers. Corrosive Bile is the sole reason why FFE is no longer viable in PvZ. By the time a Ravager timing actually hits, those Photon Cannons you built will be useless as an overpowered, unavoidable, outright broken bombardment snipes all your pylons and leaves your defences powerless.
- Lurkers. Don't even get me started on what a broken unit the 9 range LotV Lurker is. It outranges the Colossus, which was already unjustifiably neutered with a significant range and damage nerf as it was. Lurkers basically mean you need to build Disruptors in order to bombard them from a safe range. Yes, I guess you could use Tempests too, but committing to Stargate and not transitioning into Robo tech against a Hydralisk heavy composition is basically a build order loss. Also, unlike Tempests, Disruptors can at least hit Lurkers if your detection gets sniped.
- Widow Mines. Basically, if you don't have detection, you lose. End of discussion. Widow Mines don't take much commitment to actually drop in the early game. Unlike with Dark Templar, which require a full-on commitment to Twilight Council tech just to make, you can make them en masse from a reactored Factory while you build a Medivac from a Starport which requires a Factory to build anyway. They also cost 75 Minerals and 25 Gas a pop, and to load 4 of them into a Medivac would cost 400 Minerals and 200 Gas. Two Dark Templar on the other hand cost 250 Minerals and 250 Gas, and without a Warp Prism, which requires commitment to an entirely different branch of the tech tree, cannot be dropped, and have no use outside of harassment and being a far more expensive and mineral-inefficient option of morphing Archons, whereas Widow Mines are a staple unit across all stages of the game.
Have you ever heard about immortals, adepts, oracles or WP? You act like P has had an uphill battlle against everything. Get a grasp of reality and notice that P has been doninating for a looong time. I'm talking about build diversity here, not balance, you idiot.
Still think that P is not in a bad place. Carriers and maybe void rays and colossi are a bit rare. All the other units see heavy use in PvX my good sir.
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EPT
