• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:58
CEST 19:58
KST 02:58
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)7Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho3Code S RO8 Preview: ByuN, Rogue, herO, Cure5[ASL19] Ro4 Preview: Storied Rivals7
Community News
2025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14Code S Season 1 - Classic & GuMiho advance to RO4 (2025)4[BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET7herO & Cure GSL RO8 Interviews: "I also think that all the practice I put in when Protoss wasn’t doing as well is paying off"0Code S Season 1 - herO & Cure advance to RO4 (2025)0
StarCraft 2
General
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure Is there a place to provide feedback for maps? Code S RO8 Preview: ByuN, Rogue, herO, Cure
Tourneys
2025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S Season 1 - RO4 and Grand Finals Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed Mutation # 470 Certain Demise
Brood War
General
Where is effort ? BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: Emotional Finalist in Best vs Light ASL 19 Tickets for foreigners BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL19] Semifinal A [USBL Spring 2025] Groups cast [ASL19] Semifinal B
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Grand Theft Auto VI Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Why 5v5 Games Keep Us Hooked…
TrAiDoS
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
BW PvZ Balance hypothetic…
Vasoline73
ASL S19 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10712 users

Legacy of the Void Balance Update -- July 6, 2016 - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
162 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
July 06 2016 22:34 GMT
#21
On July 07 2016 06:33 Hexe wrote:
I remember when spores and spines took 30 seconds or a year


It was one of the things that had my eyebrows raised the most when I first started sc2. I never understood it.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
ShamanElemental1
Profile Joined April 2016
56 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-06 22:36:46
July 06 2016 22:35 GMT
#22
On July 07 2016 07:27 RCCar wrote:
Hi, TL! I come from near distant future 3 seasons after this patch.
1. Zerg Users: I feel the new AA buff for zerg promotes only Roach ravager play and I can't use mutas anymore its so unfair and everything sucks wah wah wah
2. DK buffs mutas
3. Toss, Terran players: Mutas are too strong they don't even die anymore seriously screw this we need buffs
4. DK buffs libs and photon overcharge
5. Toss, Zerg players: wah wah libs are too strong again we need buffs
Terran, Zerg players: PO is now one click defense against anything blah bla
I have warned you all.


This is "fake" mostly because DK never buffs Zerg like it used to do.

So no buff to Muta.

He will just band aid with even more buff to queens and nerf to liberators because pride and reasons

He just wants to see how many zergs gets to ro16 GSL
And only Dark will be there....

History will repeat like it was way back with Taeja being the sole winner with Terran but this time it will be Dark with Zerg.
jackacea
Profile Joined April 2014
66 Posts
July 06 2016 22:42 GMT
#23
Dont like the changes. It seems like 'turtle until hive' is the only acceptable Z strat at the moment, which is boring as hell.
praise kek
JimmyJRaynor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada16647 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-06 22:56:13
July 06 2016 22:51 GMT
#24
On July 07 2016 06:53 ejozl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2016 06:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.

On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers.

i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches.

DKs BNet Forum Post
for those of you at work or school with BNet blocked ... here u go people...
+ Show Spoiler +

Patch next week
After more playtests and more discussions with various people, we believe that it’ll be better to patch the current two changes to the live game sooner than later given the current situation. However, we do also want to point out that we definitely see the foreign community’s concern regarding the Queen buff, and we will definitely make sure to react quick if something breaks. But the two main reasons we would like to hurry up with this update is due to heavy feedback in favor of these changes on the KR pro side, and we also have a major tournament coming up in 2-3 weeks outside of Korea, so we would really love to push the change out to live as quickly as possible so that we can make necessary fixes before the WCS tournament if needed. So looking at this from both regions, it looks to be the right decision to patch quickly.

After the patch next week
We definitely hear your feedback regarding the potential for Ultralisk armor needing nerfs and the Liberator needing nerfs. We would really love to look at the impact of the Spore and Queen changes first before we start testing further changes. For example, if Zerg is performing much better in the early/mid game and are dominating in the late game, we can definitely take a look at the Ultralisk armor nerf, whereas if these changes were steps in the right direction but not enough, we can look at potential Liberator +light damage removal to its AA weapon.

Playing Skill vs. Game Design Skill
It’s been a while since we discussed more design philosophy based topics, and we noticed a topic being very big in the past couple weeks, so we wanted to share our thoughts regarding this. Specifically, we’re seeing a lot of posts discussing the importance of playing at a high skill level in order to be a good game designer.

Our thought is that these two have some overlap, but are different skillsets. We have seen so many examples of every mix of the two: A top player being so bad at game analysis, a top player being so good at game analysis, a bad player being so good at game design, and a bad player being also bad at game design. They’re just separate skills that one person can be good at none, one, or both of them. And the definition of a good player is so opinion based. For example, I’m currently in master league using random and if I say this to a pro player, they would think I’m pretty bad at the game. As compared to if I say this to a silver level player, they would think I’m good at the game.

The same goes for game design skills. Often times, game design skills are more difficult to quantify than say like awesome concept art skills or awesome programming skills. Interestingly, this is an area game designers on our team have a lot of discussions on regarding what an ideal game designer at Blizzard is, which is another fun topic that we can go into if there is desire for it for this in a future weekly update. And going more into detail on this current topic, the important thing for game designers working on SC2 is the ability to analyze game mechanics well. This is clearly a higher priority than playing the game at a pro level.

Just to finish off, we did want to ask a question that we ask ourselves often: In a perfect world scenario, would it be best to aim to have only game designers who are also the very best players at the game? Granted this might be near impossible to achieve, it is an interesting question because we can look at it from many different points of view. For example, I can argue that this is the best because the best player understand more parts of playing the game so he can analyze the game better as well. But I can also argue this isn’t ideal because he would be unable to see the game from a different perspective other than the top skill level, and the more ideal is to have a good mix of every type of gamer who all are good game designers.

We wanted to share our thoughts here because this is a fun topic to discuss, and we’ve also been leaning a bit more towards one way or another over the years on our team as well. Because there necessarily isn’t one, clear, perfect answer to this question, please let us know your thoughts as well and we will look forward to exploring this discussion from a potentially different angle!

Don't you think they should target the air units though?


that is 1 possible approach. buffing ground anti-air is another. i'm just glad they did 1 of the 2. as a diamond player i really only feel i should deliver a generalized message to Blizzard. Leave it to Boxer and Flash ( and of course Avilo cause is better than both those guys) to tell Blizzard whether the StimPack should last 11 seconds or 11.2 seconds or 10.98 seconds.

as a crappy player the granularity of my feedback should be low. my general message to Blizzard is that Terran air is too strong and i rely on that strength too much in my games.

when i play zerg and protoss i get pounded by terran air too much and its too big a part of terran's arsenal.
Ray Kassar To David Crane : "you're no more important to Atari than the factory workers assembling the cartridges"
redloser
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1721 Posts
July 06 2016 23:01 GMT
#25
man, this might even up the score but it would only further enhance the 3-base turtle into ultra style IMO.
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
July 06 2016 23:20 GMT
#26
Who wants 3 bases ultra rush to be the only way to play ZvT? Well blizzard does.
Loccstana
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States833 Posts
July 06 2016 23:32 GMT
#27
Blizzard, could Terran get a build time reduction and range buff to missile turrets as well? Those warp prisms are annoying to deal with.
[url]http://i.imgur.com/lw2yN.jpg[/url]
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
July 06 2016 23:33 GMT
#28
On July 07 2016 08:20 JackONeill wrote:
Who wants 3 bases ultra rush to be the only way to play ZvT? Well blizzard does.


That's why they won't have more viewers in sc2. Too little focus on fun gameplay. Nerfing stuff like oracles and similar options which destroy mineral line in a few seconds is a key to get more casual players playing sc2.
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
July 06 2016 23:34 GMT
#29
On July 07 2016 06:45 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis. Thanks for strengthening Ground based Anti-Air again.

Show nested quote +
On July 07 2016 06:40 Loccstana wrote:
Another nail in the coffin for banshee openers.

i play as terran 60% of the time and if my stupid banshee opener becomes a casualty or is substantially nerfed so be it. there is just too much Terran air in general in this game and i'm glad to see Terran air getting hit by balance patches.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd like to see them move Banshee cloak to the late game and push Hyperflight Rotors as the early-game Banshee cheese upgrade. I could see it forcing early spire or Phoenix openings, whereas cloak just forces detection in a rather bland way.
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
sc2chronic
Profile Joined May 2012
United States777 Posts
July 06 2016 23:34 GMT
#30
fuck u balance team, and fuck this patch. this isnt what zergs need right now. marine metank marauder are literally raping zergs like nanking

with balances like completely removing any air units in zvp with your clever designs, who needs a design team? why not just handle the project to 5th graders

User was temp banned for this post.
terrible, terrible, damage
sc2chronic
Profile Joined May 2012
United States777 Posts
July 06 2016 23:36 GMT
#31
and by "removing air units" i mean the old balance of making mutas and corrupters totally unviable unless u get the offchance that protoss is literally blind and doesnt scout the spire. because infinite damage from phoenix with no chance of ever gettting damaged is smart design
terrible, terrible, damage
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20282 Posts
July 06 2016 23:41 GMT
#32
So no buff to Muta.


Mutas are actually pretty good, we've just thrown a ton of overpowered counters into the game since they were overbuffed in the HOTS beta
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
PinoKotsBeer
Profile Joined February 2014
Netherlands1385 Posts
July 07 2016 00:15 GMT
#33
On July 07 2016 08:32 Loccstana wrote:
Blizzard, could Terran get a build time reduction and range buff to missile turrets as well? Those warp prisms are annoying to deal with.

Or perhaps turrets when an orbital is done like in the beta.
http://www.twitch.tv/pinokotsbeer
Beelzebub1
Profile Joined May 2015
1004 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-07 01:19:38
July 07 2016 01:18 GMT
#34
Not that I'm going to complain about buffs to my race, and it's not like they are so drastic that you can pull the, "David has no clue what he's doing" but it really seems like these buffs reinforce the notion that David has no real vision to fix actual issues and is more interested in PR band aid fixes to maintain a status quo of 50/50/50 balance which has already shown itself over the years to create stagnation and further declines in viewership (I don't know how many more tournaments SC2 is going to have if viewership keeps dropping) so I have to ask, where is the vision for this game?

Zerg is already great at playing defensive, creep is a powerful defensive tool, Queens and mobile static defenses are powerful defensive tools, Zerg doesn't really lack in areas of defense, we lack in areas of attack, are Liberators really even that OP at the higher levels? These changes will definitely make Liberators and Maru double drops weaker but will do nothing to incentivize Zerg moving out of their side of the map until Hive tech is out, engagements without Ultralisks/Broodlords/Adrenal are simply too punishing off of creep, especially vs. Terran.

Let's look at all of the exciting play offensive units that Zerg has and what their state in the current metagame is.

Mutalisks - Strongly buffed and then instead of nerfing the Mutalisk itself Liberators/Phoenix were made into hard counters which has made Mutalisk play borderline extinct. Mutalisk switches are just bad against Protoss, and 3 Liberators can pretty much a move through a pack of Mutalisks.

Infestors - laughably broken but nerfed into oblivion, any time I see these units they get a fungal off before they are popped in about a second flat, waste of gas, even Snute and Scarlett don't really touch them as they're too unwieldy and underwhelming.

Hydralisks - Mediocre in ZvP only in timing windows otherwise very very bad, almost totally non viable vs. Terran and ZvZ they are great for making Lurkers. Frail, sucks vs things it isn't supposed to suck against (Phoenix? Liberators?) and gas intensive, yet another iconic offensive Zerg unit left to the side lines to suck and keep us on our side of the map.

Viper - Used to be OP now it sucks ass in pretty much every match up outside of Mutalisk vs Mutalisk wars, Blinding Cloud is good against mech which isn't great, PB sucks against players that can can split at a Master league level and above, and consume (gasp surprise) keeps Vipers pretty much on their side of the map at all times because without energy they are floating defenseless 200 gas targets.

The solution is to give Zerg more offensive options, not continue to buff it's defensive options until turtling to Hive becomes the premium strategy to use in all match ups. The increased Queen range is also going to make ZvZ even more cheese friendly and volatile then it already is with Overlord scouting becoming much more difficult, 2 Queens can easily pick off a non speed Overlord.
Aegwynn
Profile Joined September 2015
Italy460 Posts
July 07 2016 01:21 GMT
#35
Zerg has so many weaknesses but queen is definetly not one of them. This is a really bad band-aid as usual.
CruelZeratul
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany4588 Posts
July 07 2016 01:51 GMT
#36
Is the patch already live?
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9362 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-07 02:24:53
July 07 2016 02:24 GMT
#37
nice work guys. as i've been saying for a long long time Air is just too strong. From a purely subjective perspective a ground unit should be a lot stronger than an air unit on a $ for $ basis.


The problem isn't static defense, but core ground units to air that is generally too weak.
xTJx
Profile Joined May 2014
Brazil419 Posts
July 07 2016 02:35 GMT
#38
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them.
No prejudices, i hate everyone equally.
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11133 Posts
July 07 2016 02:39 GMT
#39
Bigger changes probably won't come until after Blizzcon during the off-season.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-07-07 02:50:49
July 07 2016 02:50 GMT
#40
On July 07 2016 11:35 xTJx wrote:
This patch is the pit to SC2 burial. Viewership has never been so low and Blizzard doesn't care about the gameplay, just throwing random buffs to see if that helps with ZvT win-loss ratios, not even seriously adressing the balance issues, which is the minimum of the minimum expected from them.

The queen buff in Wings was a primary cause of the original decline of sc2 by causing blord/infestor. Queen range is not a minor change.

Most tournaments these days are foreigner only where ZvT isn't imbalanced and may even be zerg favored. This actually threatens to negatively impact balance at every level below code S Korea even if Korea were to balance out.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
17:00
Season 1 Europe Qualifier
IndyStarCraft 363
CranKy Ducklings198
LiquipediaDiscussion
BSL Season 20
15:00
Round of 32 / Group H
TerrOr vs HBO
Tarson vs Spine
ZZZero.O217
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 363
Livibee 56
ForJumy 35
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 20691
Calm 4079
Bisu 2769
Horang2 673
Mini 670
Soulkey 543
ZerO 385
ggaemo 257
ZZZero.O 217
firebathero 212
[ Show more ]
hero 180
Dewaltoss 170
Rush 139
Free 63
Barracks 62
Hyun 42
sorry 34
soO 22
Aegong 20
HiyA 16
Yoon 13
Killer 13
Sexy 5
ivOry 4
Stormgate
BeoMulf154
Dota 2
Gorgc8404
qojqva3977
League of Legends
JimRising 441
Counter-Strike
ScreaM3156
fl0m1785
flusha397
allub161
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang08392
Mew2King340
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu684
Khaldor591
Other Games
FrodaN4242
Dendi794
B2W.Neo790
ToD273
KnowMe244
Hui .131
ArmadaUGS124
ZerO(Twitch)17
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV5239
gamesdonequick1122
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv129
angryscii 38
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 116
• HeavenSC 38
• davetesta25
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• 3DClanTV 33
• Michael_bg 7
• FirePhoenix2
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler149
League of Legends
• Nemesis5347
Other Games
• imaqtpie1656
Upcoming Events
BSL Season 20
2m
MadiNho vs dxtr13
Gypsy vs Dark
Wardi Open
17h 2m
Monday Night Weeklies
22h 2m
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Road to EWC
4 days
SC Evo League
5 days
Road to EWC
5 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-14
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Heroes 10 EU
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.