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On June 25 2016 08:05 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 03:58 xTJx wrote:
Watching HomeStory Cup right now, so far Terran won 8 of 11 ZvT series, including HeroMarine beating TRUE 3-0. Be careful Blizzard, we don't want to give code S scrubs undeserved victories, better nerf them ultras. Think critically about what's happening. Z is struggling vs T right now because of early game harass period - the favor jumps to Z as hive tech comes in. Blizz. is smart enough to realize that whatever they buff early game for Z will increase the amount of games that go late and the pendulum swings. This is a step in the right direction in my book - ultra/corrupter/viper//bl/infestor is too strong - so they can't just give z a free pass to get there and then do nothing about that.
I agree, but so far we heard that they will buff spore crawler burrow and queen anti air range, this is just garbage.
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On June 25 2016 04:40 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
Now nerfing 1-2 armor from Ultralisk takes away the only way for zerg to close the game , if by some miracle he defended all the bullshit.
Yeah, it's bad... honestly I think the crazy defensive inertia of Planetary + repair needs a nerf. The fact that PF can deal with a 40 supply has always troubled me. There should be a max repair rate or something.
More broadly, this is not addressing the liberator's general utility, massability, and strength in all engagements against all compositions.
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On June 25 2016 08:22 Kafka777 wrote:
Ultras armor is only a problem if it is not countered properly - and there are hard counters to Ultras already. I'm really surprised by such feedback.
no there aren't any reliable counters to ultras. ghost snipe gets easily cancelled and liberators get destroyed by corruptor/viper. All other units are worthless vs ultras.
On June 25 2016 04:40 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
Now nerfing 1-2 armor from Ultralisk takes away the only way for zerg to close the game , if by some miracle he defended all the bullshit.
regardless of balance, do you think it's good design that zergs only way to play the game (outside of early game gimmicks) is to turtle to ultras asap and if he gets there automatically wins the game and terrans only way to play the game is to do a pre-hive allin and if that fails they automatically lose the game.
I'm glad they're finally doing something about this. and don't worry, in the end winrates will be 50/50. DK has always been very good at achieving balanced winrates.
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TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks.
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On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks.
now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol 
All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament.
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Ultralisk nerf?! ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME. They have needed a nerf since they came up with the idea to add two armor ON TOP OF a marauder nerf. One of the 2 was all that was needed. And in rackles post he basicly admitted that ultralisks are meant to be a comeback unit "if zerg is stronger early game then ultralisks may become a problem late game" ?? So you are saying they are superstrong to make up for terran having a super strong early game!? How about we just balance the game at all stages of a match? That seems like a good idea? What kind of design team is like "we want x race to be stronger at this point in the game and y race strongat this point to get themback into the game if they survive to this point". Anyway this was good to hear
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On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament.
Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level.
Zergs heavy reliance on ultras is not abusing the opness of the ultras, there simply is not a way to beat the terran army otherwise. So all zergs try to turtle till the ultras come out, but then they are just behind in the economy. If dk really wishes to nerf ultras, he must do something to balance the midgame engagements.
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On June 25 2016 12:25 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Ultralisk nerf?! ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME. They have needed a nerf since they came up with the idea to add two armor ON TOP OF a marauder nerf. One of the 2 was all that was needed. And in rackles post he basicly admitted that ultralisks are meant to be a comeback unit "if zerg is stronger early game then ultralisks may become a problem late game" ?? So you are saying they are superstrong to make up for terran having a super strong early game!? How about we just balance the game at all stages of a match? That seems like a good idea? What kind of design team is like "we want x race to be stronger at this point in the game and y race strongat this point to get themback into the game if they survive to this point". Anyway this was good to hear
You DO understand that the update was not saying Ultras are overpowered right now, and that if they buff the Zerg mid game and leave ultras as strong as they are then MAYBE ultras will be overpowered? Because at no point did he say ultras in the current state of LotV need a nerf
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On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level.
aka winrates matter only when they support your stance.
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On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks.
Two things we've learned over the course of SC2:
#1- Blizzard doesn't release balance patches, they release game design patches. Through the history of SC2 patches have just as often destabilized win rates as balanced them. A perfect example of this is the removal of Khaydarin Amulet. PvT was literally 50/50 when it was removed. They gave Protoss no corresponding buff, so the win rate for Protoss plummeted.
#2 - Blizzard has slowly removed early game aggression from the game in the form of attacks that straight up kill everything due to the constant whining of "macro players" who don't like to die to timings. Due to the inaction this caused because defending became OP so no one attacked, the game became boring.
So to create action Blizzard introduced units that kill workers, without fully understanding that killing workers can cripple an economy and end the game too, and without all of the fun of have two armies duke it out.
It was a silly solution to a problem that didn't exist.
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On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level. Zergs heavy reliance on ultras is not abusing the opness of the ultras, there simply is not a way to beat the terran army otherwise. So all zergs try to turtle till the ultras come out, but then they are just behind in the economy. If dk really wishes to nerf ultras, he must do something to balance the midgame engagements.
If you watched the TvZ games, a bunch of them were played pretty poorly.
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Zerg is still in the cheerless position of defending only against terran (no, I am not suggesting a buff for zerg here but nerfs for terran mobility and potential buff for siege tank vs. massive).
Terran race is way too mobile. This is taking away from zerg the most. At the same time terran has the best mobility, the best ranged dps and the best defensive capabilities. This is the natural imbalance. Zerg less mobility and bad defensive capabilities but has to defend left and right throughout the whole game against terran. Get into your heads blizzard balance team that even if you achieve 50/50 winrates in korea in this setup that it is so few fun to play that you gonna lose more and more players to other games.
No matter how balance of matchups is some things have to go for certain:
- invincible nydus
- tankivacs: it is ridiculous to just include sieged tanks with the bio mobility instead of decently designing terran around the natural mobility of tanks
- warp prism pickup range
Don't want to comment on anything else right now.
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On June 25 2016 13:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level. aka winrates matter only when they support your stance.
What about the korean winrates? You might have missed them while you were attacking the low hanging fruit.
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Ultralisk armour nerf would pretty much delete the unit, even one point of armor less is a massive nerf, doubling the damage they take from marines. The whole point of Ultralisk is to force Terran out of mass marines. It makes the game so much more fun then in HotS where every game would just be endless MMM till the end of time. Would make the matchup much less interesting.
I'd much rather see a T3 buff for Terran. Which has been a long time coming.
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China6326 Posts
On June 25 2016 05:07 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 04:06 digmouse wrote:
I don't see the point of having divisions with the tier system. Functionally, there is no point. This also goes against their earlier model for the revamp which scrapped divisions and grouped everyone within a massive league subdivision (of course, this was also when they planned 10 subdivisions per league instead of 3). Psychologically, there's an argument to be made. It's easier for a human to process 100 ranks than 2,000. It's the same thing with the decision to keep ladder points. Functionally, they don't do anything, but psychologically, collecting free points from the bonus pool and passing other players in your division is enjoyable.
There are already MMR and league tier to differentiate skill information, adding the division will only blur the difference and create frustration. A Gold 3 can be #1 in the division because he played lots of games and had tons of bonus pool, while a Gold 3 can be a lot lower in ranks despite probably being a better player. It was never useful, and it is now even more useless.
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Might as well remove zerg from the game
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On June 25 2016 15:51 IcemanAsi wrote:
Ultralisk armour nerf would pretty much delete the unit, even one point of armor less is a massive nerf, doubling the damage they take from marines.
That sounds insane, but much less so when you realize that that means 3/3 marines would do 2 damage per shot instead of 1.
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IMO the real problem in TvZ late game is not 8 armor Ultras, it's what follows that makes this match up broken. Ultras are kinda fine if they are not on creep, they are not that good at attacking into Terran's base, that would be suicidal even with 8 armors. Ultras' job is to force Terran out of creep they are not really the dagger to the throat.
The real pain is BL/Viper. Areal siege units with unlimited range and spell caster with explosive damage are just horrible design that should never be in any RTS game. Same thing can be said about Tempests and HTs but at least storm is dodgable. In Hots you could build Vikings but since Vikings has only 125 HP so even with the nerfed PB Vikings are not really an option any more.
I'm completely OK with keeping 8 armor Ultra and nerfing Terran earlly-mid game against Zerg and perhaps even Protoss if Blizzard can remove/nerf those flying siege units shooting from light years afar that u can't do an F about it.
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On June 25 2016 17:15 HallofPain4444 wrote:
IMO the real problem in TvZ late game is not 8 armor Ultras, it's what follows that makes this match up broken. Ultras are kinda fine if they are not on creep, they are not that good at attacking into Terran's base, that would be suicidal even with 8 armors. Ultras' job is to force Terran out of creep they are not really the dagger to the throat.
The real pain is BL/Viper. Areal siege units with unlimited range and spell caster with explosive damage are just horrible design that should never be in any RTS game. Same thing can be said about Tempests and HTs but at least storm is dodgable. In Hots you could build Vikings but since Vikings has only 125 HP so even with the nerfed PB Vikings are not really an option any more.
I'm completely OK with keeping 8 armor Ultra and nerfing Terran earlly-mid game against Zerg and perhaps even Protoss if Blizzard can remove/nerf those flying siege units shooting from light years afar that u can't do an F about it.
When is the last time tou have seen bl/viper in high level ZvT??
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On June 25 2016 13:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level. aka winrates matter only when they support your stance.
Yeah and they do support my point unlike your baseless assertion that tvz is perfectly balanced
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EPT
