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Hi Everyone
Dayvie is out today, so I (Rackle) will be making the post in his honor. Please see his update below:
Zerg
The Balance Test Map will come out next week, and since the changes are very small, we’d love to aim to patch one or both of the changes that will be tested. Let’s focus on the changes to the balance test map this week.
After completing these small changes, we should be able to gauge how they’ve worked out, and then discuss potential further moves as needed.
Ultralisk strength
We’ve heard the community’s feedback and worry that when the early game Zerg is stronger in Zerg vs. Terran Ultralisks may become an issue in the late game. We will definitely keep a close watch on this. The popularly suggested armor nerf of 1 or 2 points post-upgrade seems like a solid suggestion.
Common questions from the Ladder Revamp announcement
Let’s go over a few things that many players have brought up in more detail:
Separate MMR per race
As we’ve mentioned before, this will be one of the top priority items that we’ll start working on once the Ladder Revamp goes live.
MMR vs. Division Points
These numbers are different. Division points are points used within the division to calculate rank. They also takes activity into account through the bonus pool system. MMR, on the other hand, reflects the current skill of the player.
Promotion progress bar
We wanted to clear up that this bar shows the progress within the current tier that the player is in, and not the league. For example, if my progress bar at Diamond 3 becomes full, I will move into Diamond 2.
How Grandmaster demotions/promotions work
Every day at a set time, players on the border of GM will be demoted out of GM and be placed into a new “Contender” ladder. The remaining players who will fill out the Contender ladder will be the best Masters-level players whose MMRs are high enough to have a shot at getting into GM that day. Once the contender ladder is filled, players can play games to try and raise their MMR for 3 hours. After the 3-hour mark, all promotions will happen simultaneously to fill up the empty slots in GM league. The Contender ladder is located within the Ladder tab of the Profile, and will refresh every 5 minutes. Any player logged into StarCraft II can view its player listing and follow the competition to see which players might make it into GM that day. We also removed the bonus pool from GM league and replaced it with an activity requirement of 10 games every 3 weeks.
General Comments
As we've discussed before, the main goal for this ladder revamp pass was to have a better sense of accuracy and transparency. This is why we're displaying MMR, adding League Tiers, refreshing the GM league daily, and the progress bar towards promotion. We also have aesthetic changes we're currently working on that you can look forward to such as: new promotion fanfare, updated league badges and portrait borders, or new division banners. We still have a lot more info to come, so thanks for working together on this feature with us.
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pretty cool that even when DK is getting a well deserved vacation he assigns someone else to continue with community feedback...
" ...And it's whispered that soon, if we all call the tune,Then the piper will lead us to reason... "
David Kim is the piper.
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Avilo should be happy to see this potential Ultralisk Nerf, contender ladder hmm.... interesting.
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I'm concerned that the amount you would have to buff Zerg to make an ultralisk nerf not destroy all aspects of Zerg in ZvT would end up breaking ZvP as well.
Gotta wait for the patch itself to see obviously
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Nooo, keep the Ultralisk super strong, instead buff late game options for Terran. Don't give in to people who just wants to Marine Marauder every game all day, maybe the majority of Terrans wants that to be the case as of now, but that's only because the other Terrans left the game.
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We are probably going to get a worthless spore root time buff and an ultra nerf....
I preffer they let the game as it is insteed of "buffing" it blizzard style!
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Very sensible : help Z early game, probably with the spore buff (and the queen AA range buff maybe ?) while nerfing the ultra that had become too strong vs T.
Throw in 5/6 supply tempests and removal of lib range and the game becomes great again.
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wow what about the noskillarators strength and the contradiction in skill using that unit in the mid stages o_O I thought yous at Blizzard wanted there to be more skilled based units instead of shift click units that do insane amounts of damage?
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On June 25 2016 03:17 NomaKasd wrote:
wow what about the noskillarators strength and the contradiction in skill using that unit in the mid stages o_O I thought yous at Blizzard wanted there to be more skilled based units instead of shift click units that do insane amounts of damage?
Oh the irony...
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On June 25 2016 03:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I'm concerned that the amount you would have to buff Zerg to make an ultralisk nerf not destroy all aspects of Zerg in ZvT would end up breaking ZvP as well.
Gotta wait for the patch itself to see obviously
There's some match-up specific nerfs or buffs that can be done. Like nerfing liberator splash radius to make muta play better.
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Hey Blizzard, how about a buff to the battlecruiser, raven, thor, banshee, and cyclone? When is the last time you seen these units used in a pro-game? I just watched over 100 vods from the last month, and I saw zero effective usage of any of these units.
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On June 25 2016 03:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 03:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I'm concerned that the amount you would have to buff Zerg to make an ultralisk nerf not destroy all aspects of Zerg in ZvT would end up breaking ZvP as well.
Gotta wait for the patch itself to see obviously There's some match-up specific nerfs or buffs that can be done. Like nerfing liberator splash radius to make muta play better.
Its definitely doable I think but it will be a very thin line between fixing ZvT and breaking ZvP or TvP depending on how else they compensate in the match up. I just hope changes get pushed through before code S starts up. I don't want a Zergless ro16
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On June 25 2016 03:45 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 03:35 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 25 2016 03:12 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I'm concerned that the amount you would have to buff Zerg to make an ultralisk nerf not destroy all aspects of Zerg in ZvT would end up breaking ZvP as well.
Gotta wait for the patch itself to see obviously There's some match-up specific nerfs or buffs that can be done. Like nerfing liberator splash radius to make muta play better. Its definitely doable I think but it will be a very thin line between fixing ZvT and breaking ZvP or TvP depending on how else they compensate in the match up. I just hope changes get pushed through before code S starts up. I don't want a Zergless ro16
you can actually buff Z vs harass both vs T and Z. Both the queen AA range and the spore root time buff make sense and I guess that's the two changes we're gonna test next week. If they go through that will help Z tremendously, though a shade cooldown nerf would still be needed.
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Nerfing Z with the current winrate, well well, I guess it could be the tilt which makes me stop sc2. (I don't think it will, i survived to the protoss post sh nerf...) The race is currently the weakest out of the 3 in the top kor level and by a fair margin right know and there are no propositions for buff, just for nerf.
The community has always been terrible but seriously DK, you are bad, really bad, I don't even ask you for a better design, just a more balanced MU at top level and you're not even able to do this. T_T
I don't know, nerfing ultra, ravagers eggs (8armors) liberators and stopping tankivacs would be nice, same goes for tempests/adepts/phoenix, just one of this nerf for P and T could be tried but no, nerf zerg late game...
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Watching HomeStory Cup right now, so far Terran won 8 of 11 ZvT series, including HeroMarine beating TRUE 3-0. Be careful Blizzard, we don't want to give code S scrubs undeserved victories, better nerf them ultras.
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China6328 Posts
I don't see the point of having divisions with the tier system.
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finally something about ultralisks
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I have played this game since BW and if there's one thing i know ... its that David Kim has no idea how zerg works. Its been obivous since WoL , the race is either to strong or to weak.
He cant balance Zerg if his life would depend on that.
Buffing 1 range for queens wont help Zerg early and mid game, that is focused around defending drops/tankivacs and Liberators without Mutalisk... because 1 broken unit that comes way to early ( we all know liberator should be late game and not reactored ) Queens DPS is still bad so nope...
Now nerfing 1-2 armor from Ultralisk takes away the only way for zerg to close the game , if by some miracle he defended all the bullshit.
Also it might bring back MMMM with no other unit being made.
Prepare for even more one sided matches until he understands that Zerg needs 4 larva and LBM back.
Until then guess, he will listen to the Terran whiners as usual.
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On June 25 2016 03:13 ejozl wrote:
Nooo, keep the Ultralisk super strong, instead buff late game options for Terran. Don't give in to people who just wants to Marine Marauder every game all day, maybe the majority of Terrans wants that to be the case as of now, but that's only because the other Terrans left the game.
If they buff or redesign Colossus as well to give Protoss an equally strong late game, then this might push SC2 into a new renaissance.
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On June 25 2016 04:06 digmouse wrote:
I don't see the point of having divisions with the tier system.
i think they're just trying to give people more of an idea of how the skill curve progresses so mid level players won't be as frustrated getting stomped by someone who's in the same league but seems much stronger
personally i don't care but other people care so i suppose they have to be catered to
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United States12235 Posts
On June 25 2016 04:06 digmouse wrote:
I don't see the point of having divisions with the tier system.
Functionally, there is no point. This also goes against their earlier model for the revamp which scrapped divisions and grouped everyone within a massive league subdivision (of course, this was also when they planned 10 subdivisions per league instead of 3).
Psychologically, there's an argument to be made. It's easier for a human to process 100 ranks than 2,000. It's the same thing with the decision to keep ladder points. Functionally, they don't do anything, but psychologically, collecting free points from the bonus pool and passing other players in your division is enjoyable.
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Don't nerf the ultra... make Terran units deal with it better instead imo
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cool changes cant wait for ladder revamp 
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keep buffing queen range till they outrange tempests (cuz yes that will fix all problems "sarcasm"), use the queen range to ignore all complaints about tempests, realize the queen range is ridiculous, nerf zerg even more, watch how not a single pro-player zerg is left, then bring back the infestor/broodlord and laugh while watching the world burn
seems like a plan to me
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On June 25 2016 03:54 stilt wrote:
Nerfing Z with the current winrate, well well, I guess it could be the tilt which makes me stop sc2. (I don't think it will, i survived to the protoss post sh nerf...) The race is currently the weakest out of the 3 in the top kor level and by a fair margin right know and there are no propositions for buff, just for nerf.
The community has always been terrible but seriously DK, you are bad, really bad, I don't even ask you for a better design, just a more balanced MU at top level and you're not even able to do this. T_T
I don't know, nerfing ultra, ravagers eggs (8armors) liberators and stopping tankivacs would be nice, same goes for tempests/adepts/phoenix, just one of this nerf for P and T could be tried but no, nerf zerg late game...
can you read ?
Zerg
The Balance Test Map will come out next week, and since the changes are very small, we’d love to aim to patch one or both of the changes that will be tested. Let’s focus on the changes to the balance test map this week.
After completing these small changes, we should be able to gauge how they’ve worked out, and then discuss potential further moves as needed.
is obviously about the Z early game buffs they mentioned in the previous community update. You can say it's not enough and I'd probably agree, but they're not talking about nerfing Z with no compensation.
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Ultralisk might be a problem in the lategame. well, no shit sherlock !
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meanwhile zergs are about to be extinct in korea
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if u want to fix ultras situation u could just revert marauder attack to single, then ultras would not lose power vs protoss.
and terran would deal vs mass adept a bit better with the old marauder.
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On June 25 2016 02:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
Ultralisk strength
We’ve heard the community’s feedback and worry that when the early game Zerg is stronger in Zerg vs. Terran Ultralisks may become an issue in the late game. We will definitely keep a close watch on this. The popularly suggested armor nerf of 1 or 2 points post-upgrade seems like a solid suggestion.
Hell, it's about time.
I think they should be hyper vigilant about not creating a second blord/infestor period, decreasing midgame terran strength should be paired with a late game nerf. Especially something involving a queen range buff 
On June 25 2016 06:25 iamkaokao wrote:
meanwhile zergs are about to be extinct in korea
The hyperbole needs to stop. Zerg came out of SSL Challenger/Code A with 1 less slot than terran had last season. And this doesn't even come close to comparing to something like post-widow mine nerf 2014 seasons.
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On June 25 2016 06:32 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:25 iamkaokao wrote:
meanwhile zergs are about to be extinct in korea The hyperbole needs to stop. Zerg came out of SSL Challenger/Code A with 1 less slot than terran had last season. And this doesn't even come close to comparing to something like post-widow mine nerf 2014 seasons.
I seem to remember people crying for Terran buffs during both of those periods though.
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On June 25 2016 06:46 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:32 TheWinks wrote:On June 25 2016 06:25 iamkaokao wrote:
meanwhile zergs are about to be extinct in korea The hyperbole needs to stop. Zerg came out of SSL Challenger/Code A with 1 less slot than terran had last season. And this doesn't even come close to comparing to something like post-widow mine nerf 2014 seasons. I seem to remember people crying for Terran buffs during both of those periods though.
But they didn't happen. So therefore...? Pretending that zergs are extinct is a disservice to the discussion.
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On June 25 2016 06:49 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:46 Solar424 wrote:On June 25 2016 06:32 TheWinks wrote:On June 25 2016 06:25 iamkaokao wrote:
meanwhile zergs are about to be extinct in korea The hyperbole needs to stop. Zerg came out of SSL Challenger/Code A with 1 less slot than terran had last season. And this doesn't even come close to comparing to something like post-widow mine nerf 2014 seasons. I seem to remember people crying for Terran buffs during both of those periods though. But they didn't happen. So therefore...? Pretending that zergs are extinct is a disservice to the discussion.
Except Terran did get buffed when they removed the Hellbat transformation upgrade, and when the Widow Mine nerf was reverted, and when Adept openings were nerfed heavily in PvT.
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On June 25 2016 03:58 xTJx wrote:
Watching HomeStory Cup right now, so far Terran won 8 of 11 ZvT series, including HeroMarine beating TRUE 3-0. Be careful Blizzard, we don't want to give code S scrubs undeserved victories, better nerf them ultras.
While Zerg is weak against Terran in the mid game, in no way did True play a good series. Ling/Bane for all the games? What is this?
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What about a late game banshee damage upgrade, like the splash damage upgrade from the wol campaign but with +armor
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On June 25 2016 03:58 xTJx wrote:
Watching HomeStory Cup right now, so far Terran won 8 of 11 ZvT series, including HeroMarine beating TRUE 3-0. Be careful Blizzard, we don't want to give code S scrubs undeserved victories, better nerf them ultras.
Think critically about what's happening.
Z is struggling vs T right now because of early game harass period - the favor jumps to Z as hive tech comes in.
Blizz. is smart enough to realize that whatever they buff early game for Z will increase the amount of games that go late and the pendulum swings.
This is a step in the right direction in my book - ultra/corrupter/viper//bl/infestor is too strong - so they can't just give z a free pass to get there and then do nothing about that.
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On June 25 2016 06:29 coolmiyo wrote:
if u want to fix ultras situation u could just revert marauder attack to single, then ultras would not lose power vs protoss.
and terran would deal vs mass adept a bit better with the old marauder.
or give a try to the shells slowing the ultras again - so that micro will be more important again
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On June 25 2016 07:15 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 06:49 TheWinks wrote:On June 25 2016 06:46 Solar424 wrote:On June 25 2016 06:32 TheWinks wrote:On June 25 2016 06:25 iamkaokao wrote:
meanwhile zergs are about to be extinct in korea The hyperbole needs to stop. Zerg came out of SSL Challenger/Code A with 1 less slot than terran had last season. And this doesn't even come close to comparing to something like post-widow mine nerf 2014 seasons. I seem to remember people crying for Terran buffs during both of those periods though. But they didn't happen. So therefore...? Pretending that zergs are extinct is a disservice to the discussion. Except Terran did get buffed when they removed the Hellbat transformation upgrade, and when the Widow Mine nerf was reverted, and when Adept openings were nerfed heavily in PvT.
I meant the buffs didn't happen for last season for TvZ. Adept openings were nerfed in TvP, but the win rates in both the quals and the main event for SSL TvZ were 40%, the matchup in question. I extremely dislike using blind win rates and am only mentioning that as a point of comparison. If Zerg was in the position terran was in 2014, they really would be knocking on the door of extinction and quickly turning around some buffs would be necessary. The point is that they're currently not.
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On June 25 2016 08:10 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 07:15 Solar424 wrote:On June 25 2016 06:49 TheWinks wrote:On June 25 2016 06:46 Solar424 wrote:On June 25 2016 06:32 TheWinks wrote:On June 25 2016 06:25 iamkaokao wrote:
meanwhile zergs are about to be extinct in korea The hyperbole needs to stop. Zerg came out of SSL Challenger/Code A with 1 less slot than terran had last season. And this doesn't even come close to comparing to something like post-widow mine nerf 2014 seasons. I seem to remember people crying for Terran buffs during both of those periods though. But they didn't happen. So therefore...? Pretending that zergs are extinct is a disservice to the discussion. Except Terran did get buffed when they removed the Hellbat transformation upgrade, and when the Widow Mine nerf was reverted, and when Adept openings were nerfed heavily in PvT. I meant the buffs didn't happen for last season for TvZ. Adept openings were nerfed in TvP, but the win rates in both the quals and the main event for SSL TvZ were 40%, the matchup in question. I extremely dislike using blind win rates and am only mentioning that as a point of comparison. If Zerg was in the position terran was in 2014, they really would be knocking on the door of extinction and quickly turning around some buffs would be necessary. The point is that they're currently not.
And yet, as the meta got sorted out, and after Parasitic Bomb got nerfed, Terran players began to win more and more, which leads to the situation we're in now where Zerg has to rush to Hive or die to liberator/drop harass/mid-game push.
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Ultras armor is only a problem if it is not countered properly - and there are hard counters to Ultras already. I'm really surprised by such feedback.
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i would love some nerfs to lategame in general^^
nerf liberator/ghost, ultralisks, ravager/infestor, toss lategame (especially tempest)
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On June 25 2016 08:05 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 03:58 xTJx wrote:
Watching HomeStory Cup right now, so far Terran won 8 of 11 ZvT series, including HeroMarine beating TRUE 3-0. Be careful Blizzard, we don't want to give code S scrubs undeserved victories, better nerf them ultras. Think critically about what's happening. Z is struggling vs T right now because of early game harass period - the favor jumps to Z as hive tech comes in. Blizz. is smart enough to realize that whatever they buff early game for Z will increase the amount of games that go late and the pendulum swings. This is a step in the right direction in my book - ultra/corrupter/viper//bl/infestor is too strong - so they can't just give z a free pass to get there and then do nothing about that.
I agree, but so far we heard that they will buff spore crawler burrow and queen anti air range, this is just garbage.
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On June 25 2016 04:40 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
Now nerfing 1-2 armor from Ultralisk takes away the only way for zerg to close the game , if by some miracle he defended all the bullshit.
Yeah, it's bad... honestly I think the crazy defensive inertia of Planetary + repair needs a nerf. The fact that PF can deal with a 40 supply has always troubled me. There should be a max repair rate or something.
More broadly, this is not addressing the liberator's general utility, massability, and strength in all engagements against all compositions.
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On June 25 2016 08:22 Kafka777 wrote:
Ultras armor is only a problem if it is not countered properly - and there are hard counters to Ultras already. I'm really surprised by such feedback.
no there aren't any reliable counters to ultras. ghost snipe gets easily cancelled and liberators get destroyed by corruptor/viper. All other units are worthless vs ultras.
On June 25 2016 04:40 ShamanElemental1 wrote:
Now nerfing 1-2 armor from Ultralisk takes away the only way for zerg to close the game , if by some miracle he defended all the bullshit.
regardless of balance, do you think it's good design that zergs only way to play the game (outside of early game gimmicks) is to turtle to ultras asap and if he gets there automatically wins the game and terrans only way to play the game is to do a pre-hive allin and if that fails they automatically lose the game.
I'm glad they're finally doing something about this. and don't worry, in the end winrates will be 50/50. DK has always been very good at achieving balanced winrates.
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TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks.
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On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks.
now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol
All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament.
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Ultralisk nerf?! ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME. They have needed a nerf since they came up with the idea to add two armor ON TOP OF a marauder nerf. One of the 2 was all that was needed. And in rackles post he basicly admitted that ultralisks are meant to be a comeback unit "if zerg is stronger early game then ultralisks may become a problem late game" ?? So you are saying they are superstrong to make up for terran having a super strong early game!? How about we just balance the game at all stages of a match? That seems like a good idea? What kind of design team is like "we want x race to be stronger at this point in the game and y race strongat this point to get themback into the game if they survive to this point". Anyway this was good to hear
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On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament.
Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level.
Zergs heavy reliance on ultras is not abusing the opness of the ultras, there simply is not a way to beat the terran army otherwise. So all zergs try to turtle till the ultras come out, but then they are just behind in the economy. If dk really wishes to nerf ultras, he must do something to balance the midgame engagements.
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On June 25 2016 12:25 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
Ultralisk nerf?! ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME. They have needed a nerf since they came up with the idea to add two armor ON TOP OF a marauder nerf. One of the 2 was all that was needed. And in rackles post he basicly admitted that ultralisks are meant to be a comeback unit "if zerg is stronger early game then ultralisks may become a problem late game" ?? So you are saying they are superstrong to make up for terran having a super strong early game!? How about we just balance the game at all stages of a match? That seems like a good idea? What kind of design team is like "we want x race to be stronger at this point in the game and y race strongat this point to get themback into the game if they survive to this point". Anyway this was good to hear
You DO understand that the update was not saying Ultras are overpowered right now, and that if they buff the Zerg mid game and leave ultras as strong as they are then MAYBE ultras will be overpowered? Because at no point did he say ultras in the current state of LotV need a nerf
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On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level.
aka winrates matter only when they support your stance.
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On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks.
Two things we've learned over the course of SC2:
#1- Blizzard doesn't release balance patches, they release game design patches. Through the history of SC2 patches have just as often destabilized win rates as balanced them. A perfect example of this is the removal of Khaydarin Amulet. PvT was literally 50/50 when it was removed. They gave Protoss no corresponding buff, so the win rate for Protoss plummeted.
#2 - Blizzard has slowly removed early game aggression from the game in the form of attacks that straight up kill everything due to the constant whining of "macro players" who don't like to die to timings. Due to the inaction this caused because defending became OP so no one attacked, the game became boring.
So to create action Blizzard introduced units that kill workers, without fully understanding that killing workers can cripple an economy and end the game too, and without all of the fun of have two armies duke it out.
It was a silly solution to a problem that didn't exist.
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On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level. Zergs heavy reliance on ultras is not abusing the opness of the ultras, there simply is not a way to beat the terran army otherwise. So all zergs try to turtle till the ultras come out, but then they are just behind in the economy. If dk really wishes to nerf ultras, he must do something to balance the midgame engagements.
If you watched the TvZ games, a bunch of them were played pretty poorly.
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Zerg is still in the cheerless position of defending only against terran (no, I am not suggesting a buff for zerg here but nerfs for terran mobility and potential buff for siege tank vs. massive).
Terran race is way too mobile. This is taking away from zerg the most. At the same time terran has the best mobility, the best ranged dps and the best defensive capabilities. This is the natural imbalance. Zerg less mobility and bad defensive capabilities but has to defend left and right throughout the whole game against terran. Get into your heads blizzard balance team that even if you achieve 50/50 winrates in korea in this setup that it is so few fun to play that you gonna lose more and more players to other games.
No matter how balance of matchups is some things have to go for certain:
- invincible nydus
- tankivacs: it is ridiculous to just include sieged tanks with the bio mobility instead of decently designing terran around the natural mobility of tanks
- warp prism pickup range
Don't want to comment on anything else right now.
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On June 25 2016 13:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level. aka winrates matter only when they support your stance.
What about the korean winrates? You might have missed them while you were attacking the low hanging fruit.
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Ultralisk armour nerf would pretty much delete the unit, even one point of armor less is a massive nerf, doubling the damage they take from marines. The whole point of Ultralisk is to force Terran out of mass marines. It makes the game so much more fun then in HotS where every game would just be endless MMM till the end of time. Would make the matchup much less interesting.
I'd much rather see a T3 buff for Terran. Which has been a long time coming.
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China6328 Posts
On June 25 2016 05:07 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 04:06 digmouse wrote:
I don't see the point of having divisions with the tier system. Functionally, there is no point. This also goes against their earlier model for the revamp which scrapped divisions and grouped everyone within a massive league subdivision (of course, this was also when they planned 10 subdivisions per league instead of 3). Psychologically, there's an argument to be made. It's easier for a human to process 100 ranks than 2,000. It's the same thing with the decision to keep ladder points. Functionally, they don't do anything, but psychologically, collecting free points from the bonus pool and passing other players in your division is enjoyable.
There are already MMR and league tier to differentiate skill information, adding the division will only blur the difference and create frustration. A Gold 3 can be #1 in the division because he played lots of games and had tons of bonus pool, while a Gold 3 can be a lot lower in ranks despite probably being a better player. It was never useful, and it is now even more useless.
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Might as well remove zerg from the game
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On June 25 2016 15:51 IcemanAsi wrote:
Ultralisk armour nerf would pretty much delete the unit, even one point of armor less is a massive nerf, doubling the damage they take from marines.
That sounds insane, but much less so when you realize that that means 3/3 marines would do 2 damage per shot instead of 1.
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IMO the real problem in TvZ late game is not 8 armor Ultras, it's what follows that makes this match up broken. Ultras are kinda fine if they are not on creep, they are not that good at attacking into Terran's base, that would be suicidal even with 8 armors. Ultras' job is to force Terran out of creep they are not really the dagger to the throat.
The real pain is BL/Viper. Areal siege units with unlimited range and spell caster with explosive damage are just horrible design that should never be in any RTS game. Same thing can be said about Tempests and HTs but at least storm is dodgable. In Hots you could build Vikings but since Vikings has only 125 HP so even with the nerfed PB Vikings are not really an option any more.
I'm completely OK with keeping 8 armor Ultra and nerfing Terran earlly-mid game against Zerg and perhaps even Protoss if Blizzard can remove/nerf those flying siege units shooting from light years afar that u can't do an F about it.
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On June 25 2016 17:15 HallofPain4444 wrote:
IMO the real problem in TvZ late game is not 8 armor Ultras, it's what follows that makes this match up broken. Ultras are kinda fine if they are not on creep, they are not that good at attacking into Terran's base, that would be suicidal even with 8 armors. Ultras' job is to force Terran out of creep they are not really the dagger to the throat.
The real pain is BL/Viper. Areal siege units with unlimited range and spell caster with explosive damage are just horrible design that should never be in any RTS game. Same thing can be said about Tempests and HTs but at least storm is dodgable. In Hots you could build Vikings but since Vikings has only 125 HP so even with the nerfed PB Vikings are not really an option any more.
I'm completely OK with keeping 8 armor Ultra and nerfing Terran earlly-mid game against Zerg and perhaps even Protoss if Blizzard can remove/nerf those flying siege units shooting from light years afar that u can't do an F about it.
When is the last time tou have seen bl/viper in high level ZvT??
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On June 25 2016 13:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 12:54 redloser wrote:On June 25 2016 12:24 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 12:20 redloser wrote:
TvZ is 30-11(73%) in the current season in KR (GSL, SSL, PL), 32-17(65.3%) in the current HSC, and why does he even bother nerfing Zerg's power?
I'm just sick of DK's ego. Why does this game needs to be so worker-harassment focused? This game sucks. now that for the first time foreign winrates point towards tvz being in favor of terran they suddenly matter lol All zergs said foreign winrates are irrelevant before this tournament. Of course they matter now because before tvz was broken only in the top kr pros but now its also broken in the mid tier kr and in the foreign scene as well. Theres a consensus regardless of the skill level. aka winrates matter only when they support your stance.
Yeah and they do support my point unlike your baseless assertion that tvz is perfectly balanced
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I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration
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Nerf ultralisk armor by 1 and buff zerg mid-game will make tvz much better in my opinion.
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On June 25 2016 17:37 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 17:15 HallofPain4444 wrote:
IMO the real problem in TvZ late game is not 8 armor Ultras, it's what follows that makes this match up broken. Ultras are kinda fine if they are not on creep, they are not that good at attacking into Terran's base, that would be suicidal even with 8 armors. Ultras' job is to force Terran out of creep they are not really the dagger to the throat.
The real pain is BL/Viper. Areal siege units with unlimited range and spell caster with explosive damage are just horrible design that should never be in any RTS game. Same thing can be said about Tempests and HTs but at least storm is dodgable. In Hots you could build Vikings but since Vikings has only 125 HP so even with the nerfed PB Vikings are not really an option any more.
I'm completely OK with keeping 8 armor Ultra and nerfing Terran earlly-mid game against Zerg and perhaps even Protoss if Blizzard can remove/nerf those flying siege units shooting from light years afar that u can't do an F about it. When is the last time tou have seen bl/viper in high level ZvT??
yesterday. Also the reason you don't see bl/viper much is the same reason tempest/ht isn't seen much.
I won't tell the reason I'm sure you can figure it out yourself.
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On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration
HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them.
If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army.
If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there.
Also marauders got nerfed.
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On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed.
or checkout their game on Nimbus where BL/ultra/infestor/crackling loses to 4M with planetaries
HotS lategame for Zerg was based around a muta flock because ultras couldn't do anything but defend with their inability to hit bio off creep
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On June 25 2016 18:35 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. or checkout their game on Nimbus where BL/ultra/infestor/crackling loses to 4M with planetaries HotS lategame for Zerg was based around a muta flock because ultras couldn't do anything but defend with their inability to hit bio off creep
nobody made a huge muta flock after the thor buff. getting ultras was the way to go.
edit: I meant their game on nimbus and not frost
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On June 25 2016 17:37 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 17:15 HallofPain4444 wrote:
IMO the real problem in TvZ late game is not 8 armor Ultras, it's what follows that makes this match up broken. Ultras are kinda fine if they are not on creep, they are not that good at attacking into Terran's base, that would be suicidal even with 8 armors. Ultras' job is to force Terran out of creep they are not really the dagger to the throat.
The real pain is BL/Viper. Areal siege units with unlimited range and spell caster with explosive damage are just horrible design that should never be in any RTS game. Same thing can be said about Tempests and HTs but at least storm is dodgable. In Hots you could build Vikings but since Vikings has only 125 HP so even with the nerfed PB Vikings are not really an option any more.
I'm completely OK with keeping 8 armor Ultra and nerfing Terran earlly-mid game against Zerg and perhaps even Protoss if Blizzard can remove/nerf those flying siege units shooting from light years afar that u can't do an F about it. When is the last time tou have seen bl/viper in high level ZvT??
In Korean pro games, it usually ends before Z gets Ultra(well in Korean games T usually wins I admit that), but if the Z gets there(on even or with advantage) the game mostly is a Z win. If the Z tech ends with Ultra it's perfectly fine because T can just defend and transition into a more high tech army but right now T has to kill Z with Ultra to prevent having to face BL/Viper.(or slow the Z enough that he wouldn't get enough bank to go BL/Viper)
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration
LOTV got +2 armor on ultras and 15.8% range buff on broodlord. Both of those were pretty large buffs for every matchup but the ultralisk one was bigger in ZvT due to the terrans being forced into bio styles and marauder getting nerfed.
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On June 25 2016 20:41 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration LOTV got +2 armor on ultras and 15.8% range buff on broodlord. Both of those were pretty large buffs for every matchup but the ultralisk one was bigger in ZvT due to the terrans being forced into bio styles and marauder getting nerfed.
also parasitic bomb blowing up air units and cracklings turned into killing machines.
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On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed.
Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played.
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
and cracklings turned into killing machines.
Yeah they did. Crackling upgrade getting doubled in effectiveness is the hidden OP of LOTV
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On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played.
lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played.
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On June 25 2016 03:13 ejozl wrote:
Nooo, keep the Ultralisk super strong, instead buff late game options for Terran. Don't give in to people who just wants to Marine Marauder every game all day, maybe the majority of Terrans wants that to be the case as of now, but that's only because the other Terrans left the game.
Its sad to see that Terran has only one real viable army now MMM maybe with a Liberator or ghost sprinkled in it but mostly MMM. Would love to see more variation.
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On June 25 2016 06:06 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 03:54 stilt wrote:
Nerfing Z with the current winrate, well well, I guess it could be the tilt which makes me stop sc2. (I don't think it will, i survived to the protoss post sh nerf...) The race is currently the weakest out of the 3 in the top kor level and by a fair margin right know and there are no propositions for buff, just for nerf.
The community has always been terrible but seriously DK, you are bad, really bad, I don't even ask you for a better design, just a more balanced MU at top level and you're not even able to do this. T_T
I don't know, nerfing ultra, ravagers eggs (8armors) liberators and stopping tankivacs would be nice, same goes for tempests/adepts/phoenix, just one of this nerf for P and T could be tried but no, nerf zerg late game... can you read ? Show nested quote +
Zerg
The Balance Test Map will come out next week, and since the changes are very small, we’d love to aim to patch one or both of the changes that will be tested. Let’s focus on the changes to the balance test map this week.
After completing these small changes, we should be able to gauge how they’ve worked out, and then discuss potential further moves as needed.
is obviously about the Z early game buffs they mentioned in the previous community update. You can say it's not enough and I'd probably agree, but they're not talking about nerfing Z with no compensation.
Yes I can,the queens change will never happen, it's too awkward and risky, the spore buff could have an impact but I have some doubts. Between nothing and a nerf of ultra with a buff on the spore, I prefer nothing for the sake of balance. A slightly better defense will be not enough I think and with a normal ultra, the mu should be balanced in late game but considering the advantage in the first stages, it would be most likely a slaughter. I speak for Korea obviously, not for me or the top eu, I stop playing the game since 2 months so it is not as if I care.
Anyway, the design of the mu will still be terrible, I don't enjoy zvt since lotv, getting reckt by mech was still funnier than winning with ravagers/infestors based composition followed by an ultra a+click but if you nerf all of this, you must make big changements and Blizzard is not in the mood currently.
Ah and between nothing and a nerf of ultra with a buff on the spore, I prefer nothing for the sake of balance. A slightly better defense will be not enough I think and with a normal ultra, the mu should be balanced in late game but considering the advantage in the first stages, it would be a slaughter. I speak for Korea obviously, not for me or the top eu, I stop playing the game since 2 months so it is not as if I care.
lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played.
This was part of the reason but not the biggest, there are some others like: avoiding a 90 drones eco with full creep on the map, 30mutas with the +3 air attack; as a zerg, I always preferred to have such a ball of mutas than ultras who could be countered by a a good mass marauders transitions and were overall shit without support off creep, while the mass muta harass was so damn strong that it generally forced the bio T to make a rapid engage on the creep and well, baneling did the jobs. I liked the parade push area, it involved good micro, overall great mechanics and tactical depth from both sides. Now, zerg just have to a+click + spam biles and fungal, great...
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The problem with buffing zerg defense is that you still leave terran with an absurdly efficient composition from 5 minutes on regardless of win or loss. It's just a bandage on top of larger issue, that being an ultra efficient ultra accessible composition with no reason to transition. The medic and the liberator are so powerful and designed in such a way that the longer people play sc2 the more powerful it will become. If you can somehow buff zerg static enough that medics and liberators aren't an option then people will just become more disenfranchised with the match-up.
I'm not saying it won't help but as long as the terran endgame is bio/medic/lib not much will change. There's plenty of other units that could use some love right now if blizzard insists on a buff not nerf philosophy. The swarm host is still irrelevant, hydra still rarely sees play in tvz more so the lurker.
It's not like zerg is bereft of options either, it's just that the accelerated lotv economy greatly benefits the terran 1 1 1 style tech tree over the upgraded townhall style that zerg has. Before buffing static defense i would much rather see some terran tech changes, not a nerf to individual unit power but if you could say, skip on spores if you didn't see a tech lab on a starport or a hidden armory like you can scout an incoming hellbat push not only would more strategy develop it would also maintain the current terran composition power level.
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On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played.
pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff)
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On June 25 2016 20:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 20:41 Cyro wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration LOTV got +2 armor on ultras and 15.8% range buff on broodlord. Both of those were pretty large buffs for every matchup but the ultralisk one was bigger in ZvT due to the terrans being forced into bio styles and marauder getting nerfed. also parasitic bomb blowing up air units and cracklings turned into killing machines.
BL range buff is kinda irrelevant. Cuz PB kills Vikings so fast that T has nothing to throw against BLs now. Vikings were just fine in WOL and HOTS. It's never been OP. I have no idea why it deserved this much nerf.(although it's indirect)
And please don't mention the Thor. The Thor needs like 15 range if u want them to actually hit the BLs in a real fight. They are large, slow, gets blocked by broodlings, and are nothing but cannon fodders to friendly tank fire. Toss doesn't have problem against BLs at all because of lol u know who.
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In HOTS, +3 marauders dealt 20 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now they deal 10 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 12 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 14 damage.
In HOTS, +3 marins dealt 3 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now Marines deal 1 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 2 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 3 damage.
That's pretty much the only numbers that matter when talking about ultra's armor. So even if we went back to 6 armor, the ultra would be much stronger in TvZ that it was in HOTS.
However, another thing to consider is the reason why ultras are such a hard switch to deal with as terran : the fact chitinous plating gives +4 armor. It takes half the time +3 armor does to complete. And it makes an ultra with +2 armor and chitinous plating a whooping 7 armor already.
One way to take away a little strength from zerg T3 switch would be to have ultralisks start with 0 armor, then gain +2 for each armor upgrade, up to 6, and then have chitinous plating give an additional 1 armor (for a reduced price), up to 7.
Which would of course need to be coupled with a zerg mid game buff.
For instance, maybe make the ravager take an additional 25 gaz to morph, but give it the ability to shoot air with its autoattack? This would help zerg defend drops and harass without increasing (again) the already dominant role of the queen in zerg defense?
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I like the ravager idea but it just further pushes hydra to the sideline which makes me sad. For the ultra change how about if ultras started with two and gained one additional armor per upgrade with chitinous plating researched.
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If I were in charge of balance I would nerf the following units...
- Liberator (remove the range upgrade and remove the bonus damage to light on the AA)
- Tankivac (remove it from the game, it ruins tvt and is impossible for zergs to deal with without mutas)
- Adept (there are a number of ways they can be nerfed, from increasing cost to decreasing damage to putting some kinds of strings attached to shade, but they're ruining tvp)
- Warp Prism (pick up range is ridiculous)
- Mothership core (more specifically, photon overcharge, it gives protoss too strong a defense at no cost)
- Tempest (increase supply)
- Ultralisk (reduce armor)
- Nydus worm (there's zero reason why they're indestructible while they're building)
Then I would buff the following units...
- Reaper (something for mid-lategame so that terrans are given some kind of incentive to make them past the 3 minute mark)
- Cyclone (IMO it needs a huge design overhaul. I would want to see a spellcaster from the factory, possibly also detection, since terrans struggle with getting detection because of the big opportunity cost attached to scans and how ravens are so late in the tech tree and so expensive)
- Thor (completely useless)
- BC (also completely useless)
- Siege tank assuming tankivac is removed (they will become useless against tosses without tankivac)
- Roach (moreso a hive-tech upgrade so they're not sacks of shit lategame)
- Hydra (see roach)
- Swarm Host (not so much a buff as I would want to see a design overhaul, but they are useless now. Preferably I would want swarm hosts to be some kind of anti air as zergs have some problems with anti air if they don't go spire)
- Carrier (probably just a lower build time, their stats on their own is okay)
- Photon cannon (maybe some kind of upgrade at the forge, if photon overcharge is nerfed/removed tosses will be forced to make cannons, but cannons kind of suck)
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omg some genius understood that a moving ultras was way too effective in tvz. Nice Job
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On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff)
maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that.
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On June 25 2016 22:37 JackONeill wrote:
In HOTS, +3 marauders dealt 20 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now they deal 10 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 12 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 14 damage.
In HOTS, +3 marins dealt 3 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now Marines deal 1 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 2 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 3 damage.
That's pretty much the only numbers that matter when talking about ultra's armor. So even if we went back to 6 armor, the ultra would be much stronger in TvZ that it was in HOTS.
However, another thing to consider is the reason why ultras are such a hard switch to deal with as terran : the fact chitinous plating gives +4 armor. It takes half the time +3 armor does to complete. And it makes an ultra with +2 armor and chitinous plating a whooping 7 armor already.
One way to take away a little strength from zerg T3 switch would be to have ultralisks start with 0 armor, then gain +2 for each armor upgrade, up to 6, and then have chitinous plating give an additional 1 armor (for a reduced price), up to 7.
Which would of course need to be coupled with a zerg mid game buff.
For instance, maybe make the ravager take an additional 25 gaz to morph, but give it the ability to shoot air with its autoattack? This would help zerg defend drops and harass without increasing (again) the already dominant role of the queen in zerg defense?
Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong.
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On June 25 2016 23:16 stilt wrote:
Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong.
Hmm, it can shoot air, but it also misses the target a lot. That's why it costs only 25 gas. And I don't talk about those dummy players who can't even micro his clump air units out of its shot.
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On June 25 2016 23:27 Thinh123456 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 23:16 stilt wrote:
Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong. Hmm, it can shoot air, but it also misses the target a lot. That's why it costs only 25 gas. And I don't talk about those dummy players who can't even micro his clump air units out of its shot.
It is about the auto attack, not the biles.
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On June 25 2016 23:16 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 22:37 JackONeill wrote:
In HOTS, +3 marauders dealt 20 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now they deal 10 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 12 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 14 damage.
In HOTS, +3 marins dealt 3 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now Marines deal 1 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 2 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 3 damage.
That's pretty much the only numbers that matter when talking about ultra's armor. So even if we went back to 6 armor, the ultra would be much stronger in TvZ that it was in HOTS.
However, another thing to consider is the reason why ultras are such a hard switch to deal with as terran : the fact chitinous plating gives +4 armor. It takes half the time +3 armor does to complete. And it makes an ultra with +2 armor and chitinous plating a whooping 7 armor already.
One way to take away a little strength from zerg T3 switch would be to have ultralisks start with 0 armor, then gain +2 for each armor upgrade, up to 6, and then have chitinous plating give an additional 1 armor (for a reduced price), up to 7.
Which would of course need to be coupled with a zerg mid game buff.
For instance, maybe make the ravager take an additional 25 gaz to morph, but give it the ability to shoot air with its autoattack? This would help zerg defend drops and harass without increasing (again) the already dominant role of the queen in zerg defense? Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong.
For 25 more gaz, it'd make the ravager very expensive... I mean it'd be very costly for a 120 hp unit, and because the ravager isn't that fast moving, it wouldn't prevent medivac harass.
I'm just trying to discuss buffing zerg defense without buffing the queen again. It's so boring to have one unit that is the counter to most early game agression without any possibility to be agressive. I'd rather have zerg rely on just investing into units that cost money to defend agression and possibily counter across the map.
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On June 25 2016 23:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff) maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that.
so something's done and never works, therefore it is good?
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On June 26 2016 01:02 Alchemik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 23:11 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff) maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that. so something's done and never works, therefore it is good?
never works? the consensus in HotS was that tvz lategame was z favored and ultras were an important part of their lategame.
but anyway now it doesn't matter anymore how good certain units were in previous expansions. with ghosts and liberators in the game I agree that -2 armor would probably be too much.
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On June 26 2016 01:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 01:02 Alchemik wrote:On June 25 2016 23:11 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff) maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that. so something's done and never works, therefore it is good? never works? the consensus in HotS was that tvz lategame was z favored and ultras were an important part of their lategame. but anyway now it doesn't matter anymore how good certain units were in previous expansions. with ghosts and liberators in the game I agree that -2 armor would probably be too much.
Not sure about the consensus part. For example mech lategame was way better than zerg lategadme. 4m was also able to fight evenly against zerg lategame units and often destroyed them or bypassed them and destroyed the economy of a zerg player. Huge muta flocks were the scariest part of zerg lategadme in my opinion.
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Perhaps its possible to kill ultras now? and we have to stop 2 base all ins
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On June 26 2016 02:26 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Perhaps its possible to kill ultras now? and we have to stop 2 base all ins
Unlike other races.
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Would rather Terrans late game just get slightly buffed (like Marauders doing a single attack again) then nerf Ultralisks which is frankly the only thing that makes Terran's lives difficult, which is amazing to me considering anytime I see Ghosts get built against Ultralisks the Ultras disappear in about 3 seconds so if your a Terran and you go to late game without Ghosts that's your own damn problem not a balance issue.
David seems a bit lost on balancing Zerg though, the race is either way too strong or it get's hit with a few unnecessary nerfs and becomes shit in higher levels of play.
The only balance updates we need are minor across the board changes, no more big changes, the game just needs some tweaking.
-Slight Marauder buff (no need to nerf Ultralisk they are pure crap in ZvP and Lurkers shit on them in ZvZ)
-Queen range buff because Phoenix balls/Liberator harass are ridiculous and Zerg's anti air still sucks 5 years later for some insane reason
-Tempest supply increase (because being allowed to mass these behind cannons is just pretty dumb in general
-Fix the Cyclone to be cheap, non broken massable mech front line fighter so Terran can start actually using factory comps here and there
- Nerf Adept shade slightly and buff Stalker vs. light slightly as Adepts teeter a line between balanced and OP and Stalkers teeter a line between suck shit and mildly effective so why not tilt the power scale a bit?
- Buff Raven very slightly so it becomes worth building
- Buff Hydralisks because outside of mid game ZvP aggression they are just still bad all these years later lol
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What about putting adept shade as a research at cybercore?
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Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff.
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thats another thing, ling bane muta is more funny to play/watch than the new roach ravager infestor ultralisk.
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Yeah this makes no sense.
First actually make Zerg viable in the midgame, a buffed spore root time is not gonna help with the fact mutas still suck dick, and we can still not trade well with ling bling because Zerg just simply doesn't have the same economic advantage they had in WoL and HotS.
Blizzard has no clue on how the matchup works at all.
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On June 26 2016 03:46 Tyrhanius wrote:
Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff.
the spore buff is tiny yes but the queen buff would be really big.
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
- Photon cannon (maybe some kind of upgrade at the forge, if photon overcharge is nerfed/removed tosses will be forced to make cannons, but cannons kind of suck)
I would like to see like 2 natural shield armor on photon cannons after researching an upgrade that costs 100+ gas. Haven't thought this one through that much from a balance POV but it would be cool :D
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On June 26 2016 04:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 03:46 Tyrhanius wrote:
Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff. the spore buff is tiny yes but the queen buff would be really big.
Still would not help zerg at all about moving out unless you really commit to an attack. Zerg will still be running around their bases trying to stop medivac/WP/liberator harras, without proper way to really stop it. Total air dominance is STILL on the opponents side and that is really bad situation.
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Happy to hear they are listening.
The cyclone currently isn't used after early game.
I'd love to see the following changes via a mid-game upgrade to help the unit:
- Make it beefier. Early game they should stay the way they are.
- Allow it to lock to 2 targets simultaneously and attack both targets independently at 50% strength(after the upgrade or when an armory is built).
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Thank you. Blizz might wanna add new victory / loss animations. They feel pretty dull & outdated to me. And while bothering, players should be able to select between the animation, and a subtle black fade for the people that play really frequently... What do you think?
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On June 26 2016 04:08 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Yeah this makes no sense.
First actually make Zerg viable in the midgame, a buffed spore root time is not gonna help with the fact mutas still suck dick, and we can still not trade well with ling bling because Zerg just simply doesn't have the same economic advantage they had in WoL and HotS.
Blizzard has no clue on how the matchup works at all.
I feel like that only mildly unfair to say, the match up is still relatively well balanced it's more so the dynamic of ZvT that went from great to shit. LBM does suck a little bit more if you don't play extremely greedy and of course we all know that Terran's early to mid game only got more deadly in LOTV so obviously that's no good.
I hate the way Ghosts hard counter Ultralisks but Ultralisks hard counter bio, I also really really hate Mutalisks being sooo insanely hard countered by the Liberator, that sucks, even if it contributes to the match ups balance in a good way, the dynamic still sucks balls.
The match needs some re balancing for sure but I wouldn't say that either race is imba in ZvT it's more like Zerg sucks going into the mid game compared to T and Z's late game is strong vs. T, I liked ZvT way more when it was a MMMM parade in a giant micro battle for the 4th base, that was the mecca of ZvT that we should be getting back to in my opinion.
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On June 26 2016 04:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 03:46 Tyrhanius wrote:
Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff. the spore buff is tiny yes but the queen buff would be really big.
Queen on ZvT only help you not to die, but you can't use queens to fight vs terran army except as a support.
Even with some +1 air range, they still have low mobility, low air DPS, die to hellbat/bio.
Queen buff will be actually much stronger on ZvP and ZvZ vs mutas than on ZvT. On ZvT will just help you not to die at 5min.
Terran had a small buff vs adept with -1 adept that only affect their units, to help them not to die on adept all-in.
But nobody said : If they don't die on adept all-in they will become OP on late game, so we should nerf Terran lategame on TvP.
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Rather than buff zerg's defenses, what blizzard needs to do is let them actually harass back without invincible nyduses (those are so obscenely stupid). What this means is that they need to make mutas viable again. For zvt that means nerfing the liberator's AA damage (you do not want to buff mutas). OR you remove the liberator's ground attack so it's purely an AA fighter or make it the research upgrade at the tech lab (rather than an upgrade which increases the ground attack's range, make the upgrade let them finally transform into defender mode entirely), which means if you want to make them to counter mutas you can't use them to own ground units (similar to how the corrupter doesn't do shit against ground enemies so you can't just mass corrupters). Making mutas viable in zvt will also mean tankivacs won't ruin the matchup as much since they can chase down the medivacs (though tankivacs should still be removed because they make tvt miserable, but you would need to buff them in some way that they are useful in tvp).
Similarly blizzard needs to nerf protoss' defenses so that terrans can actually successfully harass tosses, or nerf toss' harass options so that terran can successfully defend against them in the way that tosses can defend against terran harass. I see so many people who think certain toss players have rock solid defenses but it's almost entirely because of how ridiculous photon overcharge is. tvp is so awful to watch because terrans can never do damage to tosses, whereas toss have so many options that can harass terrans that can do game-ending damage and never be punished for it (you see how many people are surprised when tosses lose their warp prism or oracle during a harass? That's because terrans can literally never kill the warp prism or oracle unless the toss massively fucks up). In additino, toss has SO MANY ways to harass that can do game ending damage. If the terran commits to turrets to stop the harass options (warp prism, oracle, DT), toss simply takes a much fsater 3rd and terran has no way to punish it because of photon overcharge.
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On June 25 2016 03:44 Loccstana wrote:
Hey Blizzard, how about a buff to the battlecruiser, raven, thor, banshee, and cyclone?
Still waiting for this supposed "we will be looking at xyz Mech changes" patch as well. I am done playing until 9 raxes are no longer needed to be competitive at SC2. Again - we are not looking for changes to the tune of changing/breaking professional play/micro, just improvement so that the gap is very small.
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On June 25 2016 08:22 Kafka777 wrote:
Ultras armor is only a problem if it is not countered properly - and there are hard counters to Ultras already. I'm really surprised by such feedback.
Its because of the casuals. They have a hard time transitioning into these counters and to control them properly.
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On June 27 2016 07:17 IMPrime wrote:
Rather than buff zerg's defenses, what blizzard needs to do is let them actually harass back without invincible nyduses (those are so obscenely stupid). What this means is that they need to make mutas viable again. For zvt that means nerfing the liberator's AA damage (you do not want to buff mutas). OR you remove the liberator's ground attack so it's purely an AA fighter or make it the research upgrade at the tech lab (rather than an upgrade which increases the ground attack's range, make the upgrade let them finally transform into defender mode entirely), which means if you want to make them to counter mutas you can't use them to own ground units (similar to how the corrupter doesn't do shit against ground enemies so you can't just mass corrupters). Making mutas viable in zvt will also mean tankivacs won't ruin the matchup as much since they can chase down the medivacs (though tankivacs should still be removed because they make tvt miserable, but you would need to buff them in some way that they are useful in tvp).
Similarly blizzard needs to nerf protoss' defenses so that terrans can actually successfully harass tosses, or nerf toss' harass options so that terran can successfully defend against them in the way that tosses can defend against terran harass. I see so many people who think certain toss players have rock solid defenses but it's almost entirely because of how ridiculous photon overcharge is. tvp is so awful to watch because terrans can never do damage to tosses, whereas toss have so many options that can harass terrans that can do game-ending damage and never be punished for it (you see how many people are surprised when tosses lose their warp prism or oracle during a harass? That's because terrans can literally never kill the warp prism or oracle unless the toss massively fucks up). In additino, toss has SO MANY ways to harass that can do game ending damage. If the terran commits to turrets to stop the harass options (warp prism, oracle, DT), toss simply takes a much fsater 3rd and terran has no way to punish it because of photon overcharge.
You mean make liberators useless? Why would you go liberators with these changes?
When liberators lose their AA against mutas, then you need something against mutas, dont you? In that case you wont invest in liberators, but in medivacs, marins and widowmines.
Why is the invincible nydus a problem? There is no logic in that. Imagine the nydus start would look like a nuke warning, that would change your whole perception, wouldnt it? It would be only overpowered if the nydus were invincible while units come out.
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I've seen a couple TvZ games where the zerg can't defend terran aggression in the early game because the baneling nest isn't out by just a few seconds. Considering it's the early game where zerg needs help, I still think another possible tool to help them would be to lower the baneling nest build time, even if it's just 5-10 seconds. Queen should still get the AA damage/range buff of course.
Then there's the issue of the zerg lategame being too strong. As everyone and their mother has already pointed out for months, I'd remove one armor from the ultra plating upgrade in a hearbeat. Those things are just too tanky atm.
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On June 26 2016 03:46 Tyrhanius wrote:
Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff.
Well, I still play LBM 100% of my ZvT, in the end for us, non pro, we can play whatever the way we want on the ladder, it does not matter. It's more for entertainment point of vue that the "almost" death of LBM is sad, it's much more enjoyable to watch for me, and I pity the pro Zerg.
I may be wrong, but I guess that the death of LBM is more due to the larva nerf than the hardcounter of the liberator. Therefore I'd still be inclined to a small larva buff, not from 3 to 4 which was an insane buff and would have helped Zerg at every level, but some kind of buff to injects, something like putting spawn larva from 25 energy to 20 (value can change of course). It's a significant buff but not as massive to go from 3 larva to 4, but which will benefit more to the better players, capable to injecting every 20 energy and not scrubs like me.
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Buffing spores' burrow speed, and/or giving them a slight buff (20 dmg instead of 15 against non bio?) + removing 1 armor from the ultra + some kind of larvae buff (injects give 4 larvae on lair, 5 on hive, and/or increase automatic larvae spawn on lair and hive) would be a nice way to even out TvZ.
Watched marinelord vs snute at homestory cup, and the first game on frozen temple was symptomatic of what's wrong with TvZ. Terran has the ability to heavily limit zerg's economy in early and mid game but into doing so, then to kill on a big push before the ultras. Marinelord was insanely ahead the whole game, until the arrival of ultralisks armlocked the game into a slower pace. Snute eventually won, even though he was behind the whole game.
Other games showed marinelord trying very hard to deal eco damage early/midgame, but eventually dying to ultras.
KR terrans perform well because they manage to kill the zerg or deal critical damage before the ultras arrival. Zerg has no midgame, but has a broken late game with the ultras.
Giving more production mid game, and better defense against the liberator harass would even out the pace of the game. Terrans wouldn't be playing on a timer anymore, while zerg would have a safer/more agressive midgame.
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On June 27 2016 22:58 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 07:17 IMPrime wrote:
Rather than buff zerg's defenses, what blizzard needs to do is let them actually harass back without invincible nyduses (those are so obscenely stupid). What this means is that they need to make mutas viable again. For zvt that means nerfing the liberator's AA damage (you do not want to buff mutas). OR you remove the liberator's ground attack so it's purely an AA fighter or make it the research upgrade at the tech lab (rather than an upgrade which increases the ground attack's range, make the upgrade let them finally transform into defender mode entirely), which means if you want to make them to counter mutas you can't use them to own ground units (similar to how the corrupter doesn't do shit against ground enemies so you can't just mass corrupters). Making mutas viable in zvt will also mean tankivacs won't ruin the matchup as much since they can chase down the medivacs (though tankivacs should still be removed because they make tvt miserable, but you would need to buff them in some way that they are useful in tvp).
Similarly blizzard needs to nerf protoss' defenses so that terrans can actually successfully harass tosses, or nerf toss' harass options so that terran can successfully defend against them in the way that tosses can defend against terran harass. I see so many people who think certain toss players have rock solid defenses but it's almost entirely because of how ridiculous photon overcharge is. tvp is so awful to watch because terrans can never do damage to tosses, whereas toss have so many options that can harass terrans that can do game-ending damage and never be punished for it (you see how many people are surprised when tosses lose their warp prism or oracle during a harass? That's because terrans can literally never kill the warp prism or oracle unless the toss massively fucks up). In additino, toss has SO MANY ways to harass that can do game ending damage. If the terran commits to turrets to stop the harass options (warp prism, oracle, DT), toss simply takes a much fsater 3rd and terran has no way to punish it because of photon overcharge. [...] Why is the invincible nydus a problem? There is no logic in that. Imagine the nydus start would look like a nuke warning, that would change your whole perception, wouldnt it? It would be only overpowered if the nydus were invincible while units come out.
Funny that I thought of the same example, the nuke, to show, that the nydus is just an indicator as long as it is invincible and that nothing is wrong about it. But the nuke has a weakness at that phase and that is: the ghost needs to stay alive. However, I still think that you don't necessarily should be able to hit the nydus, only because you can see it coming. The argument of it being invincible meanwhile and therefore being "op" doesn't make sense imo.
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only fucked up digital facebook kids and some pros play lotv - the shit game...they should have stopped at hots - the best expansion for sc2
User was warned for this post
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On June 26 2016 07:07 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 04:08 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Yeah this makes no sense.
First actually make Zerg viable in the midgame, a buffed spore root time is not gonna help with the fact mutas still suck dick, and we can still not trade well with ling bling because Zerg just simply doesn't have the same economic advantage they had in WoL and HotS.
Blizzard has no clue on how the matchup works at all. I feel like that only mildly unfair to say, the match up is still relatively well balanced it's more so the dynamic of ZvT that went from great to shit. LBM does suck a little bit more if you don't play extremely greedy and of course we all know that Terran's early to mid game only got more deadly in LOTV so obviously that's no good. I hate the way Ghosts hard counter Ultralisks but Ultralisks hard counter bio, I also really really hate Mutalisks being sooo insanely hard countered by the Liberator, that sucks, even if it contributes to the match ups balance in a good way, the dynamic still sucks balls. The match needs some re balancing for sure but I wouldn't say that either race is imba in ZvT it's more like Zerg sucks going into the mid game compared to T and Z's late game is strong vs. T, I liked ZvT way more when it was a MMMM parade in a giant micro battle for the 4th base, that was the mecca of ZvT that we should be getting back to in my opinion.
Do you even watch Korean starcraft?
Terran hasn't had this much of an advantage in TvZ since the start of WoL.
I agree that Zerg lategame is extremely strong but what is the point if Koreans can't even get there.
More evened out game trough all stages of the game would be awesome though.
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Edit: Moved to other thread.
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That proposal of changes from Bizzard is a pure joke. I wonder about the mental process behind that. How is this possible with all that statistics about the matchup where it is so clear that Zerg is dying to Terran at pro level, that they came up with nerf???
I would agree with Ultralisk -1 armour nerf if they comensate this with larva buff bringing it back to 4 per inject. It is clear that Zerg has strong late game but not as much as u think with hard counters like Ghosts and Liberators. But early game and midgame are the problem straight because of 3 larva inject. Zerg cannot survive midgame because of slower economy and production and simply dies to harras or massive pushes from Terran. The only way to win is to turtle, defend and wait to Ultralisks. But even if u survive to lategame u got shit economy compared to Terran, and good Terran already waits with Liberator/Ghost setup.
If they nerf Ultra and don't bring back 4 larva, I just don't see Zerg win anything anymore in ZvT. With Ultralisks nerfed, Terran will go pure MMMM Hots style and Zerg will not have economy and production to compete with it as the only efficent way is Muta/Bling. I just can't imagine how buffing Spore rooting time would help in midgame.
I will go with Nerchio in this topic- if u change ultras without fundamental buff in the same time which helps in early/midgame (as 4 larva per inject for example), u may just delete this broken race from the game. It's already dead in Korea.
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On June 27 2016 22:58 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2016 07:17 IMPrime wrote:
Rather than buff zerg's defenses, what blizzard needs to do is let them actually harass back without invincible nyduses (those are so obscenely stupid). What this means is that they need to make mutas viable again. For zvt that means nerfing the liberator's AA damage (you do not want to buff mutas). OR you remove the liberator's ground attack so it's purely an AA fighter or make it the research upgrade at the tech lab (rather than an upgrade which increases the ground attack's range, make the upgrade let them finally transform into defender mode entirely), which means if you want to make them to counter mutas you can't use them to own ground units (similar to how the corrupter doesn't do shit against ground enemies so you can't just mass corrupters). Making mutas viable in zvt will also mean tankivacs won't ruin the matchup as much since they can chase down the medivacs (though tankivacs should still be removed because they make tvt miserable, but you would need to buff them in some way that they are useful in tvp).
Similarly blizzard needs to nerf protoss' defenses so that terrans can actually successfully harass tosses, or nerf toss' harass options so that terran can successfully defend against them in the way that tosses can defend against terran harass. I see so many people who think certain toss players have rock solid defenses but it's almost entirely because of how ridiculous photon overcharge is. tvp is so awful to watch because terrans can never do damage to tosses, whereas toss have so many options that can harass terrans that can do game-ending damage and never be punished for it (you see how many people are surprised when tosses lose their warp prism or oracle during a harass? That's because terrans can literally never kill the warp prism or oracle unless the toss massively fucks up). In additino, toss has SO MANY ways to harass that can do game ending damage. If the terran commits to turrets to stop the harass options (warp prism, oracle, DT), toss simply takes a much fsater 3rd and terran has no way to punish it because of photon overcharge. You mean make liberators useless? Why would you go liberators with these changes? When liberators lose their AA against mutas, then you need something against mutas, dont you? In that case you wont invest in liberators, but in medivacs, marins and widowmines. Why is the invincible nydus a problem? There is no logic in that. Imagine the nydus start would look like a nuke warning, that would change your whole perception, wouldnt it? It would be only overpowered if the nydus were invincible while units come out.
How are you certain that nerfing the liberator would just make it useless, particulalry when I didn't even go into excruciating details about the nerf where you could make such a judgment? Liberators can still remain a counter to mutas (even though I don't really like that design because "anti-air light armor" used to be reserved for the thor and thus the liberator overlaps into that design, but whatever), but right now they're TOO good of a counter PLUS they are very good at controlling space and forcing fights.
I don't really see the problem with being forced to go meds/marines/mines to counter mutas (maybe throw in a thor if you're that bothered). Terrans were doing that in the other two expansions and the matchup was fine. Granted, new units change the dynamics a bit, but generally if the zerg is committed to mutas he's not going to have a lot of gas for, say, lurkers.
On a side note, you could indirectly nerf the ultra by reverting the marauder's attack back to being 1 strike, so it's only affected by defense once instead of twice. This means even with 8 armor ultras, a +3 atk marauder would still do 18 damage (26 - 8), while right now they're doing, what, 10? It is a buff to marauders against everything else on the ground but they were never really a big problem in the other expansions (outside of early tvp in WoL) so I don't see how this will disrupt the balance.
Nydus giving a nuke-like warning when it starts construction would actually be interesting. It would make the invincibility part less annoying. but honestly just removing the invincibility is better. It simply makes no sense.
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i'm glad to see ground-based anti air being strengthened.
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On June 29 2016 17:15 hiroshOne wrote:
That proposal of changes from Bizzard is a pure joke. I wonder about the mental process behind that. How is this possible with all that statistics about the matchup where it is so clear that Zerg is dying to Terran at pro level, that they came up with nerf???
I would agree with Ultralisk -1 armour nerf if they comensate this with larva buff bringing it back to 4 per inject. It is clear that Zerg has strong late game but not as much as u think with hard counters like Ghosts and Liberators. But early game and midgame are the problem straight because of 3 larva inject. Zerg cannot survive midgame because of slower economy and production and simply dies to harras or massive pushes from Terran. The only way to win is to turtle, defend and wait to Ultralisks. But even if u survive to lategame u got shit economy compared to Terran, and good Terran already waits with Liberator/Ghost setup.
If they nerf Ultra and don't bring back 4 larva, I just don't see Zerg win anything anymore in ZvT. With Ultralisks nerfed, Terran will go pure MMMM Hots style and Zerg will not have economy and production to compete with it as the only efficent way is Muta/Bling. I just can't imagine how buffing Spore rooting time would help in midgame.
I will go with Nerchio in this topic- if u change ultras without fundamental buff in the same time which helps in early/midgame (as 4 larva per inject for example), u may just delete this broken race from the game. It's already dead in Korea.
They're not changing the ultralisk, at least for now.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20166312/call-to-action-june-28-balance-testing-6-28-2016
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On June 29 2016 22:10 Lil_nooblet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2016 17:15 hiroshOne wrote:
That proposal of changes from Bizzard is a pure joke. I wonder about the mental process behind that. How is this possible with all that statistics about the matchup where it is so clear that Zerg is dying to Terran at pro level, that they came up with nerf???
I would agree with Ultralisk -1 armour nerf if they comensate this with larva buff bringing it back to 4 per inject. It is clear that Zerg has strong late game but not as much as u think with hard counters like Ghosts and Liberators. But early game and midgame are the problem straight because of 3 larva inject. Zerg cannot survive midgame because of slower economy and production and simply dies to harras or massive pushes from Terran. The only way to win is to turtle, defend and wait to Ultralisks. But even if u survive to lategame u got shit economy compared to Terran, and good Terran already waits with Liberator/Ghost setup.
If they nerf Ultra and don't bring back 4 larva, I just don't see Zerg win anything anymore in ZvT. With Ultralisks nerfed, Terran will go pure MMMM Hots style and Zerg will not have economy and production to compete with it as the only efficent way is Muta/Bling. I just can't imagine how buffing Spore rooting time would help in midgame.
I will go with Nerchio in this topic- if u change ultras without fundamental buff in the same time which helps in early/midgame (as 4 larva per inject for example), u may just delete this broken race from the game. It's already dead in Korea. They're not changing the ultralisk, at least for now. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20166312/call-to-action-june-28-balance-testing-6-28-2016
But the plan to. And i feel that they will do that. Don't underestimate the power of Terran whine :-)
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EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
