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If I were in charge of balance I would nerf the following units...
- Liberator (remove the range upgrade and remove the bonus damage to light on the AA)
- Tankivac (remove it from the game, it ruins tvt and is impossible for zergs to deal with without mutas)
- Adept (there are a number of ways they can be nerfed, from increasing cost to decreasing damage to putting some kinds of strings attached to shade, but they're ruining tvp)
- Warp Prism (pick up range is ridiculous)
- Mothership core (more specifically, photon overcharge, it gives protoss too strong a defense at no cost)
- Tempest (increase supply)
- Ultralisk (reduce armor)
- Nydus worm (there's zero reason why they're indestructible while they're building)
Then I would buff the following units...
- Reaper (something for mid-lategame so that terrans are given some kind of incentive to make them past the 3 minute mark)
- Cyclone (IMO it needs a huge design overhaul. I would want to see a spellcaster from the factory, possibly also detection, since terrans struggle with getting detection because of the big opportunity cost attached to scans and how ravens are so late in the tech tree and so expensive)
- Thor (completely useless)
- BC (also completely useless)
- Siege tank assuming tankivac is removed (they will become useless against tosses without tankivac)
- Roach (moreso a hive-tech upgrade so they're not sacks of shit lategame)
- Hydra (see roach)
- Swarm Host (not so much a buff as I would want to see a design overhaul, but they are useless now. Preferably I would want swarm hosts to be some kind of anti air as zergs have some problems with anti air if they don't go spire)
- Carrier (probably just a lower build time, their stats on their own is okay)
- Photon cannon (maybe some kind of upgrade at the forge, if photon overcharge is nerfed/removed tosses will be forced to make cannons, but cannons kind of suck)
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omg some genius understood that a moving ultras was way too effective in tvz. Nice Job
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On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff)
maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that.
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On June 25 2016 22:37 JackONeill wrote:
In HOTS, +3 marauders dealt 20 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now they deal 10 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 12 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 14 damage.
In HOTS, +3 marins dealt 3 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now Marines deal 1 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 2 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 3 damage.
That's pretty much the only numbers that matter when talking about ultra's armor. So even if we went back to 6 armor, the ultra would be much stronger in TvZ that it was in HOTS.
However, another thing to consider is the reason why ultras are such a hard switch to deal with as terran : the fact chitinous plating gives +4 armor. It takes half the time +3 armor does to complete. And it makes an ultra with +2 armor and chitinous plating a whooping 7 armor already.
One way to take away a little strength from zerg T3 switch would be to have ultralisks start with 0 armor, then gain +2 for each armor upgrade, up to 6, and then have chitinous plating give an additional 1 armor (for a reduced price), up to 7.
Which would of course need to be coupled with a zerg mid game buff.
For instance, maybe make the ravager take an additional 25 gaz to morph, but give it the ability to shoot air with its autoattack? This would help zerg defend drops and harass without increasing (again) the already dominant role of the queen in zerg defense?
Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong.
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On June 25 2016 23:16 stilt wrote:
Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong.
Hmm, it can shoot air, but it also misses the target a lot. That's why it costs only 25 gas. And I don't talk about those dummy players who can't even micro his clump air units out of its shot.
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On June 25 2016 23:27 Thinh123456 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 23:16 stilt wrote:
Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong. Hmm, it can shoot air, but it also misses the target a lot. That's why it costs only 25 gas. And I don't talk about those dummy players who can't even micro his clump air units out of its shot.
It is about the auto attack, not the biles.
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On June 25 2016 23:16 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 22:37 JackONeill wrote:
In HOTS, +3 marauders dealt 20 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now they deal 10 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 12 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 14 damage.
In HOTS, +3 marins dealt 3 damage to +3 armor ultras with plating.
Now Marines deal 1 damage.
With 7 armor, they'd deal 2 damage, with 6 armor, they'd deal 3 damage.
That's pretty much the only numbers that matter when talking about ultra's armor. So even if we went back to 6 armor, the ultra would be much stronger in TvZ that it was in HOTS.
However, another thing to consider is the reason why ultras are such a hard switch to deal with as terran : the fact chitinous plating gives +4 armor. It takes half the time +3 armor does to complete. And it makes an ultra with +2 armor and chitinous plating a whooping 7 armor already.
One way to take away a little strength from zerg T3 switch would be to have ultralisks start with 0 armor, then gain +2 for each armor upgrade, up to 6, and then have chitinous plating give an additional 1 armor (for a reduced price), up to 7.
Which would of course need to be coupled with a zerg mid game buff.
For instance, maybe make the ravager take an additional 25 gaz to morph, but give it the ability to shoot air with its autoattack? This would help zerg defend drops and harass without increasing (again) the already dominant role of the queen in zerg defense? Honestly, I like the ravagers in zvp but in zvt, it is a dumb unit and the ability of shoot air will be insane for such an unit even with a +25 gaz cost. It would suddenly becomes extremely versatile and so, way too strong.
For 25 more gaz, it'd make the ravager very expensive... I mean it'd be very costly for a 120 hp unit, and because the ravager isn't that fast moving, it wouldn't prevent medivac harass.
I'm just trying to discuss buffing zerg defense without buffing the queen again. It's so boring to have one unit that is the counter to most early game agression without any possibility to be agressive. I'd rather have zerg rely on just investing into units that cost money to defend agression and possibily counter across the map.
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On June 25 2016 23:11 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff) maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that.
so something's done and never works, therefore it is good?
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On June 26 2016 01:02 Alchemik wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2016 23:11 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff) maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that. so something's done and never works, therefore it is good?
never works? the consensus in HotS was that tvz lategame was z favored and ultras were an important part of their lategame.
but anyway now it doesn't matter anymore how good certain units were in previous expansions. with ghosts and liberators in the game I agree that -2 armor would probably be too much.
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On June 26 2016 01:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 01:02 Alchemik wrote:On June 25 2016 23:11 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 21:41 Scarlett` wrote:On June 25 2016 21:01 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 20:52 Railgan wrote:On June 25 2016 18:21 Charoisaur wrote:On June 25 2016 18:09 Penev wrote:
I understand you might have to look at late game if you buff early game but if they went with -2 armor on Ultra's they would be back at HotS level right?
I mean there's memes about that particular iteration HotS ultras were really strong. the reason they were often seen getting shredded by mass marauder was that they required a ton of ressources AND you needed a ton of support for them so many zergs died while transitioning to them. If a zerg could secure 5-6 bases with hive tech they could get an extremely scary ultra/bane/infestor army. If you want to see how strong HotS Ultras were with proper support check out soO vs TaeJa on KSS and Frost. yeah he lost the game on frost but taeJa had to play like a god there. Also marauders got nerfed. Ultralisks in HotS were a joke. Not sure what game you played. lol you know nothing about the game. ultras were the reason every terran paradepushed in HotS to slow down their hive transition as much as possible. not sure which game you played. pretty sure it was better to play ling bane mutal with 3/3 than to make ultras in zvt back in hots (at least b4 thor buff) maybe but I have seen a ton of zergs including you transitioning to ultras in lategame. If they would suck so hard they wouldn't have done that. so something's done and never works, therefore it is good? never works? the consensus in HotS was that tvz lategame was z favored and ultras were an important part of their lategame. but anyway now it doesn't matter anymore how good certain units were in previous expansions. with ghosts and liberators in the game I agree that -2 armor would probably be too much.
Not sure about the consensus part. For example mech lategame was way better than zerg lategadme. 4m was also able to fight evenly against zerg lategame units and often destroyed them or bypassed them and destroyed the economy of a zerg player. Huge muta flocks were the scariest part of zerg lategadme in my opinion.
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Perhaps its possible to kill ultras now? and we have to stop 2 base all ins
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On June 26 2016 02:26 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Perhaps its possible to kill ultras now? and we have to stop 2 base all ins
Unlike other races.
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Would rather Terrans late game just get slightly buffed (like Marauders doing a single attack again) then nerf Ultralisks which is frankly the only thing that makes Terran's lives difficult, which is amazing to me considering anytime I see Ghosts get built against Ultralisks the Ultras disappear in about 3 seconds so if your a Terran and you go to late game without Ghosts that's your own damn problem not a balance issue.
David seems a bit lost on balancing Zerg though, the race is either way too strong or it get's hit with a few unnecessary nerfs and becomes shit in higher levels of play.
The only balance updates we need are minor across the board changes, no more big changes, the game just needs some tweaking.
-Slight Marauder buff (no need to nerf Ultralisk they are pure crap in ZvP and Lurkers shit on them in ZvZ)
-Queen range buff because Phoenix balls/Liberator harass are ridiculous and Zerg's anti air still sucks 5 years later for some insane reason
-Tempest supply increase (because being allowed to mass these behind cannons is just pretty dumb in general
-Fix the Cyclone to be cheap, non broken massable mech front line fighter so Terran can start actually using factory comps here and there
- Nerf Adept shade slightly and buff Stalker vs. light slightly as Adepts teeter a line between balanced and OP and Stalkers teeter a line between suck shit and mildly effective so why not tilt the power scale a bit?
- Buff Raven very slightly so it becomes worth building
- Buff Hydralisks because outside of mid game ZvP aggression they are just still bad all these years later lol
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What about putting adept shade as a research at cybercore?
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Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff.
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thats another thing, ling bane muta is more funny to play/watch than the new roach ravager infestor ultralisk.
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Yeah this makes no sense.
First actually make Zerg viable in the midgame, a buffed spore root time is not gonna help with the fact mutas still suck dick, and we can still not trade well with ling bling because Zerg just simply doesn't have the same economic advantage they had in WoL and HotS.
Blizzard has no clue on how the matchup works at all.
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On June 26 2016 03:46 Tyrhanius wrote:
Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff.
the spore buff is tiny yes but the queen buff would be really big.
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
- Photon cannon (maybe some kind of upgrade at the forge, if photon overcharge is nerfed/removed tosses will be forced to make cannons, but cannons kind of suck)
I would like to see like 2 natural shield armor on photon cannons after researching an upgrade that costs 100+ gas. Haven't thought this one through that much from a balance POV but it would be cool :D
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On June 26 2016 04:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2016 03:46 Tyrhanius wrote:
Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble.
If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate.
The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran.
So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments.
It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area :
I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack....
-1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff. the spore buff is tiny yes but the queen buff would be really big.
Still would not help zerg at all about moving out unless you really commit to an attack. Zerg will still be running around their bases trying to stop medivac/WP/liberator harras, without proper way to really stop it. Total air dominance is STILL on the opponents side and that is really bad situation.
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EPT
