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Djangoobie
13 Posts
The cyclone currently isn't used after early game. I'd love to see the following changes via a mid-game upgrade to help the unit: - Make it beefier. Early game they should stay the way they are. - Allow it to lock to 2 targets simultaneously and attack both targets independently at 50% strength(after the upgrade or when an armory is built). | ||
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Jj_82
Swaziland419 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On June 26 2016 04:08 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Yeah this makes no sense. First actually make Zerg viable in the midgame, a buffed spore root time is not gonna help with the fact mutas still suck dick, and we can still not trade well with ling bling because Zerg just simply doesn't have the same economic advantage they had in WoL and HotS. Blizzard has no clue on how the matchup works at all. I feel like that only mildly unfair to say, the match up is still relatively well balanced it's more so the dynamic of ZvT that went from great to shit. LBM does suck a little bit more if you don't play extremely greedy and of course we all know that Terran's early to mid game only got more deadly in LOTV so obviously that's no good. I hate the way Ghosts hard counter Ultralisks but Ultralisks hard counter bio, I also really really hate Mutalisks being sooo insanely hard countered by the Liberator, that sucks, even if it contributes to the match ups balance in a good way, the dynamic still sucks balls. The match needs some re balancing for sure but I wouldn't say that either race is imba in ZvT it's more like Zerg sucks going into the mid game compared to T and Z's late game is strong vs. T, I liked ZvT way more when it was a MMMM parade in a giant micro battle for the 4th base, that was the mecca of ZvT that we should be getting back to in my opinion. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On June 26 2016 04:19 Charoisaur wrote: the spore buff is tiny yes but the queen buff would be really big. Queen on ZvT only help you not to die, but you can't use queens to fight vs terran army except as a support. Even with some +1 air range, they still have low mobility, low air DPS, die to hellbat/bio. Queen buff will be actually much stronger on ZvP and ZvZ vs mutas than on ZvT. On ZvT will just help you not to die at 5min. Terran had a small buff vs adept with -1 adept that only affect their units, to help them not to die on adept all-in. But nobody said : If they don't die on adept all-in they will become OP on late game, so we should nerf Terran lategame on TvP. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
Similarly blizzard needs to nerf protoss' defenses so that terrans can actually successfully harass tosses, or nerf toss' harass options so that terran can successfully defend against them in the way that tosses can defend against terran harass. I see so many people who think certain toss players have rock solid defenses but it's almost entirely because of how ridiculous photon overcharge is. tvp is so awful to watch because terrans can never do damage to tosses, whereas toss have so many options that can harass terrans that can do game-ending damage and never be punished for it (you see how many people are surprised when tosses lose their warp prism or oracle during a harass? That's because terrans can literally never kill the warp prism or oracle unless the toss massively fucks up). In additino, toss has SO MANY ways to harass that can do game ending damage. If the terran commits to turrets to stop the harass options (warp prism, oracle, DT), toss simply takes a much fsater 3rd and terran has no way to punish it because of photon overcharge. | ||
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PressureSC2
122 Posts
On June 25 2016 03:44 Loccstana wrote: Hey Blizzard, how about a buff to the battlecruiser, raven, thor, banshee, and cyclone? Still waiting for this supposed "we will be looking at xyz Mech changes" patch as well. I am done playing until 9 raxes are no longer needed to be competitive at SC2. Again - we are not looking for changes to the tune of changing/breaking professional play/micro, just improvement so that the gap is very small. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On June 25 2016 08:22 Kafka777 wrote: Ultras armor is only a problem if it is not countered properly - and there are hard counters to Ultras already. I'm really surprised by such feedback. Its because of the casuals. They have a hard time transitioning into these counters and to control them properly. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On June 27 2016 07:17 IMPrime wrote: Rather than buff zerg's defenses, what blizzard needs to do is let them actually harass back without invincible nyduses (those are so obscenely stupid). What this means is that they need to make mutas viable again. For zvt that means nerfing the liberator's AA damage (you do not want to buff mutas). OR you remove the liberator's ground attack so it's purely an AA fighter or make it the research upgrade at the tech lab (rather than an upgrade which increases the ground attack's range, make the upgrade let them finally transform into defender mode entirely), which means if you want to make them to counter mutas you can't use them to own ground units (similar to how the corrupter doesn't do shit against ground enemies so you can't just mass corrupters). Making mutas viable in zvt will also mean tankivacs won't ruin the matchup as much since they can chase down the medivacs (though tankivacs should still be removed because they make tvt miserable, but you would need to buff them in some way that they are useful in tvp). Similarly blizzard needs to nerf protoss' defenses so that terrans can actually successfully harass tosses, or nerf toss' harass options so that terran can successfully defend against them in the way that tosses can defend against terran harass. I see so many people who think certain toss players have rock solid defenses but it's almost entirely because of how ridiculous photon overcharge is. tvp is so awful to watch because terrans can never do damage to tosses, whereas toss have so many options that can harass terrans that can do game-ending damage and never be punished for it (you see how many people are surprised when tosses lose their warp prism or oracle during a harass? That's because terrans can literally never kill the warp prism or oracle unless the toss massively fucks up). In additino, toss has SO MANY ways to harass that can do game ending damage. If the terran commits to turrets to stop the harass options (warp prism, oracle, DT), toss simply takes a much fsater 3rd and terran has no way to punish it because of photon overcharge. You mean make liberators useless? Why would you go liberators with these changes? When liberators lose their AA against mutas, then you need something against mutas, dont you? In that case you wont invest in liberators, but in medivacs, marins and widowmines. Why is the invincible nydus a problem? There is no logic in that. Imagine the nydus start would look like a nuke warning, that would change your whole perception, wouldnt it? It would be only overpowered if the nydus were invincible while units come out. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Then there's the issue of the zerg lategame being too strong. As everyone and their mother has already pointed out for months, I'd remove one armor from the ultra plating upgrade in a hearbeat. Those things are just too tanky atm. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On June 26 2016 03:46 Tyrhanius wrote: Like all zergs, i would prefer to play back to LBM, and not roach/ravager/infestor ultras, but LBM is unreliable style you can only play when you're ahead or if the other is inferior player or make big mistakes, or as a bet/gamble. If it's obvious that if Zerg mid game become better, ultras could be nerfed to compensate. The joke is "spores/+1 queen range" won't allow zerg to have a competitive midgame vs terran. So talking about ultras nerf to compensate with this buff, is like insulting regarding how poorly Zerg is doing on the korean tournaments. It's like you would have sayed to terrans during broodlord/infestor area : I gonna buff the speed of flying buildings to help you to switch your add-ons faster, but i'm scaired you will become too strong so i'm thinking about nerfing stimpack.... -1 armor for ultras could be trade for something like a larva buff, or something like that, but not for a tiny spore/queen buff. Well, I still play LBM 100% of my ZvT, in the end for us, non pro, we can play whatever the way we want on the ladder, it does not matter. It's more for entertainment point of vue that the "almost" death of LBM is sad, it's much more enjoyable to watch for me, and I pity the pro Zerg. I may be wrong, but I guess that the death of LBM is more due to the larva nerf than the hardcounter of the liberator. Therefore I'd still be inclined to a small larva buff, not from 3 to 4 which was an insane buff and would have helped Zerg at every level, but some kind of buff to injects, something like putting spawn larva from 25 energy to 20 (value can change of course). It's a significant buff but not as massive to go from 3 larva to 4, but which will benefit more to the better players, capable to injecting every 20 energy and not scrubs like me. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
Watched marinelord vs snute at homestory cup, and the first game on frozen temple was symptomatic of what's wrong with TvZ. Terran has the ability to heavily limit zerg's economy in early and mid game but into doing so, then to kill on a big push before the ultras. Marinelord was insanely ahead the whole game, until the arrival of ultralisks armlocked the game into a slower pace. Snute eventually won, even though he was behind the whole game. Other games showed marinelord trying very hard to deal eco damage early/midgame, but eventually dying to ultras. KR terrans perform well because they manage to kill the zerg or deal critical damage before the ultras arrival. Zerg has no midgame, but has a broken late game with the ultras. Giving more production mid game, and better defense against the liberator harass would even out the pace of the game. Terrans wouldn't be playing on a timer anymore, while zerg would have a safer/more agressive midgame. | ||
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CyanApple
48 Posts
On June 27 2016 22:58 todespolka wrote: [...] Why is the invincible nydus a problem? There is no logic in that. Imagine the nydus start would look like a nuke warning, that would change your whole perception, wouldnt it? It would be only overpowered if the nydus were invincible while units come out. Funny that I thought of the same example, the nuke, to show, that the nydus is just an indicator as long as it is invincible and that nothing is wrong about it. But the nuke has a weakness at that phase and that is: the ghost needs to stay alive. However, I still think that you don't necessarily should be able to hit the nydus, only because you can see it coming. The argument of it being invincible meanwhile and therefore being "op" doesn't make sense imo. | ||
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RealEyes
3 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On June 26 2016 07:07 Beelzebub1 wrote: I feel like that only mildly unfair to say, the match up is still relatively well balanced it's more so the dynamic of ZvT that went from great to shit. LBM does suck a little bit more if you don't play extremely greedy and of course we all know that Terran's early to mid game only got more deadly in LOTV so obviously that's no good. I hate the way Ghosts hard counter Ultralisks but Ultralisks hard counter bio, I also really really hate Mutalisks being sooo insanely hard countered by the Liberator, that sucks, even if it contributes to the match ups balance in a good way, the dynamic still sucks balls. The match needs some re balancing for sure but I wouldn't say that either race is imba in ZvT it's more like Zerg sucks going into the mid game compared to T and Z's late game is strong vs. T, I liked ZvT way more when it was a MMMM parade in a giant micro battle for the 4th base, that was the mecca of ZvT that we should be getting back to in my opinion. Do you even watch Korean starcraft? Terran hasn't had this much of an advantage in TvZ since the start of WoL. I agree that Zerg lategame is extremely strong but what is the point if Koreans can't even get there. More evened out game trough all stages of the game would be awesome though. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3343 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
I would agree with Ultralisk -1 armour nerf if they comensate this with larva buff bringing it back to 4 per inject. It is clear that Zerg has strong late game but not as much as u think with hard counters like Ghosts and Liberators. But early game and midgame are the problem straight because of 3 larva inject. Zerg cannot survive midgame because of slower economy and production and simply dies to harras or massive pushes from Terran. The only way to win is to turtle, defend and wait to Ultralisks. But even if u survive to lategame u got shit economy compared to Terran, and good Terran already waits with Liberator/Ghost setup. If they nerf Ultra and don't bring back 4 larva, I just don't see Zerg win anything anymore in ZvT. With Ultralisks nerfed, Terran will go pure MMMM Hots style and Zerg will not have economy and production to compete with it as the only efficent way is Muta/Bling. I just can't imagine how buffing Spore rooting time would help in midgame. I will go with Nerchio in this topic- if u change ultras without fundamental buff in the same time which helps in early/midgame (as 4 larva per inject for example), u may just delete this broken race from the game. It's already dead in Korea. | ||
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IMPrime
United States715 Posts
On June 27 2016 22:58 todespolka wrote: You mean make liberators useless? Why would you go liberators with these changes? When liberators lose their AA against mutas, then you need something against mutas, dont you? In that case you wont invest in liberators, but in medivacs, marins and widowmines. Why is the invincible nydus a problem? There is no logic in that. Imagine the nydus start would look like a nuke warning, that would change your whole perception, wouldnt it? It would be only overpowered if the nydus were invincible while units come out. How are you certain that nerfing the liberator would just make it useless, particulalry when I didn't even go into excruciating details about the nerf where you could make such a judgment? Liberators can still remain a counter to mutas (even though I don't really like that design because "anti-air light armor" used to be reserved for the thor and thus the liberator overlaps into that design, but whatever), but right now they're TOO good of a counter PLUS they are very good at controlling space and forcing fights. I don't really see the problem with being forced to go meds/marines/mines to counter mutas (maybe throw in a thor if you're that bothered). Terrans were doing that in the other two expansions and the matchup was fine. Granted, new units change the dynamics a bit, but generally if the zerg is committed to mutas he's not going to have a lot of gas for, say, lurkers. On a side note, you could indirectly nerf the ultra by reverting the marauder's attack back to being 1 strike, so it's only affected by defense once instead of twice. This means even with 8 armor ultras, a +3 atk marauder would still do 18 damage (26 - 8), while right now they're doing, what, 10? It is a buff to marauders against everything else on the ground but they were never really a big problem in the other expansions (outside of early tvp in WoL) so I don't see how this will disrupt the balance. Nydus giving a nuke-like warning when it starts construction would actually be interesting. It would make the invincibility part less annoying. but honestly just removing the invincibility is better. It simply makes no sense. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16665 Posts
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Lil_nooblet
United States459 Posts
On June 29 2016 17:15 hiroshOne wrote: That proposal of changes from Bizzard is a pure joke. I wonder about the mental process behind that. How is this possible with all that statistics about the matchup where it is so clear that Zerg is dying to Terran at pro level, that they came up with nerf??? I would agree with Ultralisk -1 armour nerf if they comensate this with larva buff bringing it back to 4 per inject. It is clear that Zerg has strong late game but not as much as u think with hard counters like Ghosts and Liberators. But early game and midgame are the problem straight because of 3 larva inject. Zerg cannot survive midgame because of slower economy and production and simply dies to harras or massive pushes from Terran. The only way to win is to turtle, defend and wait to Ultralisks. But even if u survive to lategame u got shit economy compared to Terran, and good Terran already waits with Liberator/Ghost setup. If they nerf Ultra and don't bring back 4 larva, I just don't see Zerg win anything anymore in ZvT. With Ultralisks nerfed, Terran will go pure MMMM Hots style and Zerg will not have economy and production to compete with it as the only efficent way is Muta/Bling. I just can't imagine how buffing Spore rooting time would help in midgame. I will go with Nerchio in this topic- if u change ultras without fundamental buff in the same time which helps in early/midgame (as 4 larva per inject for example), u may just delete this broken race from the game. It's already dead in Korea. They're not changing the ultralisk, at least for now. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20166312/call-to-action-june-28-balance-testing-6-28-2016 | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On June 29 2016 22:10 Lil_nooblet wrote: They're not changing the ultralisk, at least for now. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20166312/call-to-action-june-28-balance-testing-6-28-2016 But the plan to. And i feel that they will do that. Don't underestimate the power of Terran whine :-) | ||
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