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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 21 2016 11:04 Cyro wrote: Mutas have been buffed repeatedly until the game wouldn't work properly without OP mutalisk counters. I've gone into this in lots of detail before I agree with this, Mutalisks should have been nerfed, not all other air units designed to kill them straight up. Bad design is definitely bad. | ||
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DalaiiLameR
42 Posts
4 larva instead of 3 is the biggest buff for zerg since the queen buff, i feel. | ||
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TKiFenris
Canada5 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17381 Posts
On May 21 2016 07:56 Nakajin wrote: I never understood the Terran need high APM thing, as a plat player, Diamon in hots with terran I feel the opposite, I like Terran because it dosen't need high amp (at least at my level) I hardly go over the 120 APM in average playing bio, I hate liberator because it is to much amp. For me Protoss seem impossible with all the casting to do it feel it need a lot more APM even more in LOTV, Zerg is just to much apm to macro for me with the injects. my APM ranges from 70 to 150 depending on how serious i feel like playing. i've spent 10X as much time playing Terran as i have playing Zerg. i'm still a better Zerg player. i've studied, gone over replays, experiment with different hotkey setups etc etc. I've just accepted it and I don't think DK should alter the game because of my personal issue. injects are easy.. i just hot key all my queens to "3" and use hte minimap to keep injecting. my "elite" expansion harass consists of the micro-intense strategically deep "throw some zerglings at it while doing other macro stuff".... also i have the backspace key, the "3" and the "V" assigned to thumb buttons on my G502. terran infantry is vulnerable in a way 30 zerglings and 10 banelings can never be. Terran macro is a just a giant PITA relative to Zerg. Zerg is just easier. Its the same for Brood War. to be clear: none of this is a complaint and i'm not expecting DK/Blizz to change the game. my winning percentage is the same for both races... i just play against worse players on my terran account. | ||
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DalaiiLameR
42 Posts
On May 21 2016 17:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote: my APM ranges from 70 to 150 depending on how serious i feel like playing. i've spent 10X as much time playing Terran as i have playing Zerg. i'm still a better Zerg player. i've studied, gone over replays, experiment with different hotkey setups etc etc. I've just accepted it and I don't think DK should alter the game because of my personal issue. injects are easy.. i just hot key all my queens to "3" and use hte minimap to keep injecting. my "elite" expansion harass consists of the micro-intense strategically deep "throw some zerglings at it while doing other macro stuff".... also i have the backspace key, the "3" and the "V" assigned to thumb buttons on my G502. terran infantry is vulnerable in a way 30 zerglings and 10 banelings can never be. Terran macro is a just a giant PITA relative to Zerg. Zerg is just easier. Its the same for Brood War. to be clear: none of this is a complaint and i'm not expecting DK/Blizz to change the game. my winning percentage is the same for both races... i just play against worse players on my terran account. no offence, but that is just not true. for terran macro, you dont even need to jump into your mainbase. having all raxes on one hotkey allows you to build units easily. if you forget mules - no problem. just call 5,6 mules at the same time, when you remember it. you dont lose mins, you just get them later, so theres no punishment for forgetting mules. larva instead is unforgiving. if you forget it, you just cant produce units. is it as simple as that. yeah, you can stack injects, but you have to wait till the inject pops, unitl the next circle starts. besides inject, you HAVE to spread creep. its easier to produce units for zerg, thats true, since you dont need any production facilities, but the zerg macro is rly hard and unforgiving, if you want to master it! just curious.. wich league are you in?  | ||
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MiCroLiFe
Norway275 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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todespolka
221 Posts
On May 21 2016 03:30 Cyro wrote: Pretty important if you're balancing tightly around KR results --------------------------- I'd like to see some acknowledgement of racial representation at the moment as it's quite bad, maybe even the worst in the history of the game. EU has a split of 39% zerg, 35% terran and 24% protoss at masters. What's the cause of that huge imbalance if protoss is to be considered the strongest race at the highest level of play? Pre-LOTV the distribution was much better. Because race distribution is not a directly related to balance. Balance is only a cause of race distribution, but it has many more causes (cause -> effect, balance -> distribution, but there are more causes). There are better tools to measure balance, but they are difficult to understand. Blizzard uses pretty much the same system as microsoft: TrueSkill Ranking System. The only diffrence is, that they added a race performance. Blizzards formula: https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1uv5uh/this_is_the_complex_formula_blizzard_uses_to/ I think distribution is a good source for how fun a race is in which league. Also what is real balance? I believe, it means that both sides have the same chance to win the game. But not all people play to win games and some refuse to adapt, so that statistics doesnt always reflect balance. Thats why you need to research a population that adapts and tries to win such as the korean proleague. | ||
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mCon.Hephaistas
Netherlands891 Posts
On May 21 2016 04:21 Teoita wrote: I really don't understand korea's feedback. Sample size is super small, but Zergs do fine in proleague, won SSL, and got murdered in GSL where they had some pretty unfavourable groups that led to only Losira in the ro8. Seems fine to me. Zerg is not doing fine in proleague though. I agree with the lib nerfs and immortal/warp prism nerf the larva buff would be way too much. However we should still search for a way to make ling bling muta viable vs terran, zerg simply can't keep up with terran in the midgame atm and none of these changes are gonna help much with that. | ||
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_Croc
Norway36 Posts
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Divain
France17 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17381 Posts
On May 21 2016 17:37 DalaiiLameR wrote: no offence, but that is just not true. for terran macro, you dont even need to jump into your mainbase. having all raxes on one hotkey allows you to build units easily. if you forget mules - no problem. just call 5,6 mules at the same time, when you remember it. you dont lose mins, you just get them later, so theres no punishment for forgetting mules. larva instead is unforgiving. if you forget it, you just cant produce units. is it as simple as that. yeah, you can stack injects, but you have to wait till the inject pops, unitl the next circle starts. besides inject, you HAVE to spread creep. its easier to produce units for zerg, thats true, since you dont need any production facilities, but the zerg macro is rly hard and unforgiving, if you want to master it! just curious.. wich league are you in? there is a reason there are so few top notch foriegn Terrans. its harder to play. i'm a diamond random player and i'm usually able to keep my terran account in the diamond league... but not always. Larva injects have a rhythm just like SCV building... just make a timer that beeps every "X" seconds and play 50 games with it in the background. Then turn it off.. and you should have the rhythm memorized. Make larva injects your #1 priority and you are fine. i mainly play with other low APM people and we pretty much share the same experience: Zerg is the easiest race to play in both SC2 and Brood War. In Brood War you really have to babysit your terran infantry... and then micro the fuck out of them to make them effective. With Zerg you can just throw your units at the opponent army.. the most you might do is "surround and then attack". | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
All that in a context of long term change of direction: Drop that buffs over nerfs thing. I don't see why terran should get about constant 3-4 free workers per OC on the map. This results in the the lack of shades of grey in interactions. Harrassment on terran is either game ending or it deals more damage to yourself because of the investments you had to spend on it. A mechanic like the mule would fit better to the zerg race in terms of current design and general meta. In TvZ terran can drop zerg with medivacs, deal damage and load units back in and fly out. As long as there are no mutalisks/infestors out, there is few to no risk at all to lose the dropship a 0 to 100 risk vs. reward mechanic. And in the current meta mutalisks are not being played. However if zerg wants to harrass terran it has to commit its units. Runby with 15 lings? They wont get out of there no matter if they kill 10 or 1 scv. Going mutalisks? A unit that throws you back and makes you weaker in the face to face fight that might be following a few minutes later. That combines with the fact that mules over-counter the investement in units that have to commit when you execute harrassment. Mules would work well against units that are no investment like a bio drop which is a perfect part of the main army and can stop harrassment and join back with the main army or simultanious army fight + drops at any given time. It creates the situation of either dealing game ending damage to terran or leave it at all and focus on defending only until strong lategame. Now I am not suggesting to move mules to zerg but want to emphasize again how much of negative impact they have on the game. And I am viewing this totally out of the context that terran has to efficiently harrass zerg in order to delay zergs op lategame because I want this to be changed as well. One step after the other. So the options here are to either move terran away from 80% bio + X metagame so that inveting into bio drop harrassment becomes an investment instead of an obligatory action you do in every TvZ as medivacs and bio is the main component of your army, or to give mechanics that counter 0 investment harrassments like mules to the race that are vulnerable to that. That is why I am rooting for moving terran away from 80% bio + X. What doesn't work is to give Z in TvZ only the choice to commit units on harrassment which is getting 100% absorbed by mules if it doesn't deal game ending damage and then wonder why zerg either has only passive playstyles or invest in all-in play. Because this results in and requires zerg to get tools to overpower the terran without too big efforts in certain situation such as right now the ravager late midgame thing or the ultralisk to keep things in balance. I want that to go as well. And I am not getting tired to repeat that since about 3 years now. Once you have understood what I am talking about you acknowledge that it is the only real chance to fix the game. All other options are shifting problems only! And that is what we have done and seen for the past 5 years. By default the explained mechanics make for a bad metagame in terms of design and balance. (I want to remind everybody what TvZ has been over the past: starting off with lol op terran moving into winfestors shifting into a playstyle of bio/mines vs muta/bling which kept 60% of the units of both races out of the meta (but was balanced at a certain point of time) and left zero strategical choices to be made than just spamming units and microing them into a half assed mech vs. swarm host playstyle towards what we get now with op unit vs. unit mechanics all over the place.). In order to name the changes I support again: - remove marauder (reintroduce in lategame tier 3 potentially with academy building) - lategame 200/200 terran army (not 80% bio + X) should overpower lategame 200/200 zerg army at any given time (terran benefits from unit efficiency and zerg from faster reproduction abilities) - zerg needs to get the role of actively and efficiently harrassing T (which then can be nullified to a certain extend by mules, which will work perfectly) in order to delay terrans powerful endgame which does not require endless exansions due to it's unit effciency. - switch lurker + ravager spot in game in order to achieve less counters of zerg vs tanks/mech in early game but have tank counter potential lurker play which then later can be countered by ravagers of zerg. Tanks vs. Lurker also adds interesting scan vs. mule mechanics before raven is out. - nerf baneling: they then just would be mixed into the main army in low numbers instead of being the main component of the army vs. bio - remove muta healing or lower it, so that we get a risk vs. reward situation here and so on. Results: - midgame is not going to be skipped almost completely as now - many choices by each T and Z how to play: go for a bit more or less marines? rush out the raven? using scans to be aggressive vs. zerg or stay defensive a bit longer with using mules? Muta play? roach/hydra play? How many lurkers? Dropping any of the named units? etc. - step by step unit interactions: marines better zerglings, roaches better marines, lurkers better marines, tanks better roaches/lurkers, ravagers better tanks, mutas better too few marines, rines better muta, etc. instead of hey I build the best unit composition overall from the beginning as I can. So this is what I actually want and then we don't need a nerf of mules as well. I focus on TvZ solely as I am sure that this is the key thing to be fixed and all other matchups should evolve around such changes. Also it doesn't make much sense to talk about everything at once. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
No, wait, actually, the Cyclone nerf/buff/nerf whathehellisitanyway will create new all-ins so we will have more ways to not let them get there! Genius DK! | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16061 Posts
On May 21 2016 17:37 DalaiiLameR wrote: no offence, but that is just not true. for terran macro, you dont even need to jump into your mainbase. having all raxes on one hotkey allows you to build units easily. if you forget mules - no problem. just call 5,6 mules at the same time, when you remember it. you dont lose mins, you just get them later, so theres no punishment for forgetting mules. If you forget to make units and have overmins, no punishment you still can make the same units you just get them later, right? | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On May 21 2016 17:58 Salteador Neo wrote: I'm sure that in this matter KeSPA is right and the community is wrong, zerg is the weakest, not terran. Must be why SKT, KT and JinAir refuses to play any Terrans in the SPL play offs... | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
Any suggested change will only result in the counter part being favoured afterwards or nothing changes, which both results in "nothing changes". The root of the issue must be fixed, not the results of the issue being slightly tweaked in one or another side's favour as we have done it in the past 5 years. | ||
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Elentos
55567 Posts
On May 21 2016 19:48 Glorfindel! wrote: Must be why SKT, KT and JinAir refuses to play any Terrans in the SPL play offs... KeSPA Terrans have been saying since even Code A that T >> Z. | ||
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Terence Chill
Germany112 Posts
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