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On April 24 2016 12:41 Dabble wrote:
I know Kespa has a zero-tolerance policy towards matchfixing because of how prevalent an issue it was in the past, but I feel like in this case a fine and a suspension would be enough. The games Life threw, in matches he went on to win anyways as many have noted, in my mind falls more along the lines of poor sportsmanship than cheating. Losing one of the best players in the world will cost them more in the long run than if they were to allow him to continue playing.
Life was sentenced by a court, in Korean law he's a legitimate criminal. By (basically) pardoning him, KeSPA would send the wrong signals. Not to mention, they would give other players of similar caliber (Maru, INnoVation, sOs, Zest, etc.) a carte blanche to throw games for money if they feel like it.
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Oh how I long for some kind of interview or statement from Life. Would be interesting.
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Sad to see Bbyong fall to Match fixing too. Wasn't one on my list. Makes me pretty confident at its peak a double digit percentage of players fixed at least one match as I can think of about 5 who got away with it and that's now at least two players I didn't even suspect who seem to be pretty clear match fixers. I wouldn't be shocked if 10+ of the top 100 ranked players as of around the start of 2015 fixed at least one match, so far I think we're at 4 confirmed right with a few others that aren't 'confirmed' but seem overwhelmingly likely
To anyone talking jail sentences it's a first offense that's absurd, fines/confiscation of match fixing money and probation etc are proportionate to the crime along with lifetime bans from all esports for all match fixers obviously.
I don't think this is the end of it yet unfortunately but it's another step in the right direction I assume the more this happens the fewer cases of match fixing will occur as the progamers start to realise that the risk of getting caught may not be worth it.
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On April 23 2016 19:30 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 19:25 MaximilianKohler wrote:
Will life still be able to play in other tournaments like the GSL?
It would be such a horrible loss for SC2 if arguably the best player was gone forever. i dont think getting rid of a person fixing game results in tournaments and actively harming the integrity of the scene is any loss at all
That certainly seems to be a popular opinion, but I can't agree with it at all.
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Papua New Guinea1058 Posts
Why are there two threads for this?
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On April 25 2016 04:32 HornyHerring wrote:
Why are there two threads for this?
Because one is not enough!
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Let me rephrase my poor sportsmanship comment.
What it boils down to is: Life was rude for money. He got paid... to be rude.
Which is illegal.
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Canada11355 Posts
On April 25 2016 06:42 Dabble wrote:
Let me rephrase my poor sportsmanship comment.
What it boils down to is: Life was rude for money. He got paid... to be rude.
Which is illegal.
So the money effort and time that kespa and blizzard, and whoever else has a hand in the production of these tournaments, puts forward to fund a legitimate event should have no bearing on this? If it was a match in a PC bang these people were betting on and fixing you'd have a point and I'd agree with you but this is no different from point shaving, prop-bet manipulation, or match throwing in professional physical sports.
Not to mention the fact that Life most likely signed a contract stating he would play to the best of his ability in any match he plays as a member of his esports team.
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I'm tired of all that.
completely off topic stuffs + Show Spoiler +
Starcraft lost many technical aspects, all that things that coordinate and make things look like clockworks ( not sure about this word ) , that created poesy, few days ago I watched Flash playing Bhroodwar, as I'm very new to BW I felt something very strong for the game when i saw 1 then 2 then 3 dragoons and 1 then 2 vcs to repair the bunker wich is just enough to heal the bunker being a totally standard path of the builds in lost temple
That kind of your science you can bring with you to the game and makes you feel improving sometimes when a specific move you can confirm it's worth you do every game.
I know it's because Starcraft II is young, but the HotS-LotV offseason was a hurricane, and this just dont stop, and I'm not sure I'll be patient enough to wait the game find some harmony back again
I'm specifically affected by the Moonglade and Life losses, I still like the style of zergs from jin air and skt t1, maybe that's why I'm still there reading stuffs.
Starcraft lost his stars.
That topic is nearly pointless since page 5 and is just people from two sides fighting when it's just education variation that make you choose your side, and talking about that all over again won't do or learn anything to anybody
So I came post useless stuff too, because I feel sad about my favorite game dying
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On April 24 2016 12:41 Dabble wrote:
I know Kespa has a zero-tolerance policy towards matchfixing because of how prevalent an issue it was in the past, but I feel like in this case a fine and a suspension would be enough. The games Life threw, in matches he went on to win anyways as many have noted, in my mind falls more along the lines of poor sportsmanship than cheating. Losing one of the best players in the world will cost them more in the long run than if they were to allow him to continue playing.
If a player wanted to cheat gamblers out of money, which also seems like a legitimate concern on some level (even though sports gambling is illegal in Korea), they can do that without receiving payment and would then receive no punishment. Infact, I'm convinced Korean pros do this all the time, doing illogical build orders and building units or buildings at weird timings just to **** with gamblers, without making any money off of it. But this is pure speculation, and has little to do with Life.
I don't even... what?
So, it's okay if let's say Leicester City intentionally loses in Premier League to get a huge pay day, but ultimately they win the league so it's okay...
Or, it's okay if Golden State loses 3 games to Houston on purpose to win gambling money... but it's okay if they win the series...
Has to be the WORST logical stance on this whole topic.
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On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote:
The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes.
And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
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On April 25 2016 16:51 iNsaNe- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote:
The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes. And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
Yes, they aren't doing jail so that should be good enough really. Fine, investigation and life-time ban from Starcraft should be sufficient.
However I don't feel any pity for those who go to jail. If you think you're somehow above others and willingly cheat the system, then you deserve to what you get. Prison sucks, but so does getting your home broken into and having your life in the hand's of some unknown goon.
One of them can be avoided by respecting the law, the other cannot.
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On April 25 2016 16:51 iNsaNe- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote:
The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes. And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy).
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Would it be all right to stay on topic instead of going into pointless debates which are full of subjective arguments and scary thoughts such as "the state full controls the economy" ?
Match-fixers did not face jail-time, nor is anyone arguing that they should; shouldn't that be enough for you?
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On April 25 2016 17:09 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 16:51 iNsaNe- wrote:On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote:
The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes. And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right? And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy).
So your plan for discouraging fraud and other financial crimes is to warn people that they may not get to keep the money?
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On April 25 2016 17:16 Incognoto wrote:
Would it be all right to stay on topic instead of going into pointless debates which are full of subjective arguments and scary thoughts such as "the state full controls the economy" ?
Match-fixers did not face jail-time, nor is anyone arguing that they should; shouldn't that be enough for you?
This is simply not true. There are plenty of people in both threads arguing that the punishment should be harsher and expressing dissatisfaction over the given and/or expected suspended sentences and fines. You are, again, trying to push your view by trying to control what is being said and what isn't and I, still, do not considered that acceptable.
On April 25 2016 17:45 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 17:09 opisska wrote:On April 25 2016 16:51 iNsaNe- wrote:On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote:
The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes. And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right? And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy). So your plan for discouraging fraud and other financial crimes is to warn people that they may not get to keep the money?
Pretty much yes. The main deterrent against financial crimes should always be the efficiency in uncovering them. On top of that, I am in favor of imposing additional financial penalties, such as confiscation of property, fines (enforced by pre-emptive confiscation of income, if necessary) or even restriction of economic freedoms, such as the convict being enable to legally conduct business in the area where he committed the fraud etc. But putting people in jail for stealing money is just the prefect symptom of our society having really twisted values.
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On April 25 2016 20:24 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 17:16 Incognoto wrote:
Would it be all right to stay on topic instead of going into pointless debates which are full of subjective arguments and scary thoughts such as "the state full controls the economy" ?
Match-fixers did not face jail-time, nor is anyone arguing that they should; shouldn't that be enough for you? This is simply not true. There are plenty of people in both threads arguing that the punishment should be harsher and expressing dissatisfaction over the given and/or expected suspended sentences and fines. You are, again, trying to push your view by trying to control what is being said and what isn't and I, still, do not considered that acceptable. Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 17:45 Umpteen wrote:On April 25 2016 17:09 opisska wrote:On April 25 2016 16:51 iNsaNe- wrote:On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote:
The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary. Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes. And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right? And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy). So your plan for discouraging fraud and other financial crimes is to warn people that they may not get to keep the money? Pretty much yes. The main deterrent against financial crimes should always be the efficiency in uncovering them. On top of that, I am in favor of imposing additional financial penalties, such as confiscation of property, fines (enforced by pre-emptive confiscation of income, if necessary) or even restriction of economic freedoms, such as the convict being enable to legally conduct business in the area where he committed the fraud etc. But putting people in jail for stealing money is just the prefect symptom of our society having really twisted values.
I would agree here, tbh. I always thought it's weird that someone who stole money ended up in prison. Prison is an insanely expensive punishment for the state and should - in my opinion - only be used for people that might be a threat to some people or the entire society. What else should be the reason to lock someone away at these high costs?
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Well they just need to look at matches that were a lot of money putted in when gambled and they can find match fixer easily. Players need to think, not just act with the eyes of money. So if they gave player 70k$ they will at least want to triple the amount. Gambling houses probably reported this to laws in the first place. haha
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On April 26 2016 06:03 TizeNO wrote:
Well they just need to look at matches that were a lot of money in when gambled and they can find match fixer easily. Players need to think, not just act throw the eyes of money. haha
A lot of the money is gambled on underground betting rings. So it's not trivial to find out which games have action on them.
Sometimes they make it to the bigger bookies, for example last summer (or was it two summers ago?) there was a string of cancelled bets on Pinnacle, the largest online esports bookie due to unusual transactions. But I don't know that any of the games Life / Byong threw raised any flags on Pinnacle.
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On April 26 2016 06:07 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 06:03 TizeNO wrote:
Well they just need to look at matches that were a lot of money in when gambled and they can find match fixer easily. Players need to think, not just act throw the eyes of money. haha A lot of the money is gambled on underground betting rings. So it's not trivial to find out which games have action on them. Sometimes they make it to the bigger bookies, for example last summer (or was it two summers ago?) there was a string of cancelled bets on Pinnacle, the largest online esports bookie due to unusual transactions. But I don't know that any of the games Life / Byong threw raised any flags on Pinnacle.
What are you saying is true, but why would someone even bet with his money on some places that you know are nest of corruption. Only big player win there for obvious reasons. lol
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EPT
