The Changwon Prosecutor's Office announced the indictment of two professional gamers alongside nine others (brokers, financial backers, etc) as a result of their second investigation into StarCraft 2 match-fixing. Though investigators did not name any individuals directly, Korean media reports and public details from the investigation confirm the involved progamers to be Lee "Life" Seung Hyun and Jung "Bbyong" Woo Yong.
According to an official report from the Prosecutor’s Office (read: full summary), Life intentionally lost two games in the 2015 KeSPA Cup, receiving 35,000,000 won for each loss. Given the dates for the matches, May 3rd and 4th, it follows that Life's opponents were Terminator and Dream. Life had been approached by brokers on behalf of Sung "Enough" Jun Mo, a former StarCraft 1 progamer who had already been found guilty following the Changwon Prosecutor Office's first match-fixing investigation (read: related article) in October of 2015.
In Bbyong’s case, the former CJ Entus captain intentionally lost a single match earlier in January of this year, dropping a single GSL Code A game to DRGLing in return for 30,000,000 won. According to DailyEsports (source), Bbyong was not part of the original investigation, but turned himself in and cooperated with the authorities.
The official report states that Life was found guilty of “obstruction of business”—a crime with no direct equivalent in American law—as well as receiving bribes. Enough, and three others who helped arrange and profited from Life’s match-fixing, were found guilty of crimes such as fraud, bribery, and obstruction of business.
According to Yonhap news (source), Life was found guilty and received a sentence of eighteen months in prison, suspended by three years. A suspended sentence in Korea is similar to pre-emptive probation, with the convicted parties not required to serve their original sentence should they pass the probationary period without infractions. Life was also fined 70,000,000 won, the sum of his compensation for match-fixing.
Life's sentencing is in line with the sentencing from the PRIME match fixing scandal, the Changwon Prosecutor's Office first investigation into match-fixing. Yonhap news reports that prosecutors have appealed the sentencing for being inappropriate, presumably seeking harsher punishment.
Bbyong has also been charged with obstruction of business and receiving bribes, but has yet to receive sentencing.
Player A is likely to be Life. He lost 6 games in that tournament. 1 to Dream, 2 to Terminator, and he got 3-0d by Dark (which I imagine is most likely where any thrown games are)
I really hope Stats isnt Mr. E... it looks like bbyong considering his "personal leave" recently. Mr.A should be Life. Or preferably this is just a preview from the next P&W Chapter, and esports isnt furthur tainted...
It says single game, so most probably Bbyong. Too bad, he was always so hyped to play, I think there is more backgound to this story. I don't see him doing it just out of pure greed.
Life is programmer A. Bbyong is E. Life was offered 7 times the first place prize to throw two maps in separate series that he ended up winning both. And he was 18 at the time. I feel like in his shoes, a lot more people than would care to admit it would take that deal
On April 21 2016 16:12 Charoisaur wrote: When will this shit finally stop..?
Increasing the prize pool would probably help, considering you get 7 times more the money for throwing a match/game than actually winning the tournament itself.
On April 21 2016 16:07 Yorkie wrote: Life is programmer A. Bbyong is E. Life was offered 7 times the first place prize to throw two maps in separate series that he ended up winning both. And he was 18 at the time. I feel like in his shoes, a lot more people than would care to admit it would take that deal
If I would be poor probably but life had already earned 400k + $ I don't understand that at all
On April 21 2016 16:16 Cashling wrote: So is that it for lifu? He was the chosen one, sent to the destroy the sith, not join them. Does he get suspension or is it Kespa PermaBan?
If it's true then I'm 99% certain of a perma ban. Not sure if for BByong too... he at least turned himself in, though if I had to guess they'll perma ban him too. Hope not though.
On April 21 2016 16:16 Cashling wrote: So is that it for lifu? He was the chosen one, sent to the destroy the sith, not join them. Does he get suspension or is it Kespa PermaBan?
He'll be perma banned. Bbyong has a slight chance since he turned himself in. Life has zero. Kespa doesn't fuck around
On April 21 2016 16:12 Charoisaur wrote: When will this shit finally stop..?
Increasing the prize pool would probably help, considering you get 7 times more the money for throwing a match/game than actually winning the tournament itself.
The amount gamblers can bribe the players can always outscale whatever prize pool you set up. Having a larger prize pool might reduce the temptation for the "poorer" players, but wouldn't be a solution for the problem.
On April 21 2016 16:23 GTR wrote: Mr. E is referred to an ex-progamer and former game journalist. Surely this is Enough who was indicted in the PRIME case?
Oo that guy is much older though? Would be nice if it's not Bbyong though.
Vacating championships is somewhat difficult of an issue. He won them fair and square, and he matchfixed tournaments he didn't win. So technically his wins are legitimate, even though he was a shitter.
bribepool>prizepool...I will never understand I remember watching life games and just getting so hyped to play the game. He was a big reason I switched to Zerg. What a shame that the scene can come to a few bad people bribing these young kids. Sad day for Starcraft 2
He was most likely involved in the games Life threw, meaning he was guilty of them before he was caught with the Prime stuff. It's not like he got arrested then got out and match fixed again (I wouldn't think)
Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
On April 21 2016 16:29 20-Minute-Jackal wrote: I wonder if Bbyong match fixed to get the money for his eye operation.
If you are talking about operations like Lasik or whatever, they are "super cheap" (compared to, lets say where I live) in Korea. You wouldn't need 30,000,000 Won just for that.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
normally nobody would bat an eye because he won the series, but if you're talking about Mr.E here then he decided to turn himself in.
guilt isn't really known for driving rational decisions.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
On April 21 2016 16:36 Makro wrote: and so the life drama ends
Aren't these possible new charges against Life, in addition to the charges for match fixing in Proleague? If so, Life would have match fixed in both Proleague and the Kespa Cup. If anything, it seems like all new drama for Life.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
On April 21 2016 16:36 Makro wrote: and so the life drama ends
Aren't these possible new charges against Life, in addition to the charges for match fixing in Proleague? If so, Life would have match fixed in both Proleague and the Kespa Cup. If anything, it seems like all new drama for Life.
The "Life match fixing in Proleague" was all speculation. There was one game against Solar that was mildly suspicious, but most likely these two games are what he was arrested for. He would have been investigated thoroughly at this point and if he had match fixed at other times it would have been included in the report.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
I am under no circumstances ok with it. It's blatantly throwing away competitive integrity. Some small part of me does think it makes a difference somehow, but still
On April 21 2016 15:56 abuse wrote: I don't understand what a person is thinking where he match fixes and then turns himself in.
If you have the decency to turn yourself in then you should've had the decency to not do it in the first place.
Yes, because the inner decency of all human beings is a black and white construct that cannot change over time.
I'm really sad to hear that GSL is now being manipulated as well. Proleague matches have been fixed on occasion for a long time, but this is the first time I remember hearing about a Code S matchfix.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
On April 21 2016 15:56 abuse wrote: I don't understand what a person is thinking where he match fixes and then turns himself in.
If you have the decency to turn yourself in then you should've had the decency to not do it in the first place.
Yes, because the inner decency of all human beings is a black and white construct that cannot change over time.
I'm really sad to hear that GSL is now being manipulated as well. Proleague matches have been fixed on occasion for a long time, but this is the first time I remember hearing about a Code S matchfix.
On April 21 2016 16:36 Makro wrote: and so the life drama ends
Aren't these possible new charges against Life, in addition to the charges for match fixing in Proleague? If so, Life would have match fixed in both Proleague and the Kespa Cup. If anything, it seems like all new drama for Life.
The "Life match fixing in Proleague" was all speculation. There was one game against Solar that was mildly suspicious, but most likely these two games are what he was arrested for. He would have been investigated thoroughly at this point and if he had match fixed at other times it would have been included in the report.
Ahh, I see. We haven't known for which matches Life was arrested for yet. But it seems probable now it was for the Kespa Cup matches.
I knew this was never gonna have a happy ending for Life. it was so obvious that he was guilty of something, but damn for some reason I had a shred of hope that he didn't do it. Fuck
Well...time for me to stop being a quiet reader i feel. Life is my age and I have been following and loving that kid since zenex days, and even though Rain became my favorite player ever since his wcs asia games vs. parting, i always looked up to life, as he just felt like someone so special to me. Part of this is because his first incredible run for like half a year i believe was during a time in which i was very ill, while starcraft was something i could hold on and look foward to playing as soon as i got better. Also very sad for Bbyong, if the reason is, as guessed prior, him having to pay for eye surgery, i really hope kespa gives him a second chance, as he seemed to be in huge troubles.
I don't know if this is the right time or place to do so, but as this is the first time i write about this, i would like to thank everyone active on TL, or active in the SC2 scene in general for helping me to get through a lot of bad times and helping me to recover from an illness i may otherwise not have been able to recover from. Sorry for my bad english and thank you all.
On April 21 2016 16:49 Comeback_SC2 wrote: Well...time for me to stop being a quiet reader i feel. Life is my age and I have been following and loving that kid since zenex days, and even though Rain became my favorite player ever since his wcs asia games vs. parting, i always looked up to life, as he just felt like someone so special to me. Part of this is because his first incredible run for like half a year i believe was during a time in which i was very ill, while starcraft was something i could hold on and look foward to playing as soon as i got better. Also very sad for Bbyong, if the reason is, as guessed prior, him having to pay for eye surgery, i really hope kespa gives him a second chance, as he seemed to be in huge troubles.
I don't know if this is the right time or place to do so, but as this is the first time i write about this, i would like to thank everyone active on TL, or active in the SC2 scene in general for helping me to get through a lot of bad times and helping me to recover from an illness i may otherwise not have been able to recover from. Sorry for my bad english and thank you all.
On April 21 2016 16:12 Charoisaur wrote: When will this shit finally stop..?
Increasing the prize pool would probably help, considering you get 7 times more the money for throwing a match/game than actually winning the tournament itself.
Make progamers more aware of the consequences of such actions.
Protect progamers more than what is already done with fair conditions, better salaries, etc.
Better prize pool would also help I guess.
Protect progamers who are approached to match-fix.
Better surveillance on who is offering these deals and cracking down on betting.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
the Naniwa Probe-Rushing thing was "ok" because that match didnt make any sense. Real matchfixing like in this case is never ok, even if the outcome is the same.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
I am under no circumstances ok with it. It's blatantly throwing away competitive integrity. Some small part of me does think it makes a difference somehow, but still
Bla bla competitive integrity is just a pointless buzzword anyway. I am really fed up with how everyone considers matchfixing worse than mass murder.
I would see an activity that leads you to winning when you would lose anyway as a really big problem for the competition (hacking, stream cheating, whatever .... But deliberately losing, I am just not that crazy about. In particular when it doesn't change the outcome of the series (and the map score is not used for anything). It's worse in PL, when it kinda shits on your teammates, but in individual leagues, it's just up to you, if you really want to lose, isn't it?
And as I have said a dozen times: yes, it's stealing money, but from mainly people who bet illegally - and you are sort of not supposed to expect your investment to be legally protected, when it's against the law in the first place, right?
On April 21 2016 16:12 Charoisaur wrote: When will this shit finally stop..?
Increasing the prize pool would probably help, considering you get 7 times more the money for throwing a match/game than actually winning the tournament itself.
I can tell you now that won't change until 2017. Blizzard's goal for 2016 is increasing its own stock value.
This is how players, community members, and others become implicated and potentially unemployed. I would love to talk about this on a talk show at some point, but my sleep schedule puts me to bed at 4:00 A.M. and the earliest talk show here begins at like 6:00 A.M. my time.
On April 21 2016 16:49 Comeback_SC2 wrote: Well...time for me to stop being a quiet reader i feel. Life is my age and I have been following and loving that kid since zenex days, and even though Rain became my favorite player ever since his wcs asia games vs. parting, i always looked up to life, as he just felt like someone so special to me. Part of this is because his first incredible run for like half a year i believe was during a time in which i was very ill, while starcraft was something i could hold on and look foward to playing as soon as i got better. Also very sad for Bbyong, if the reason is, as guessed prior, him having to pay for eye surgery, i really hope kespa gives him a second chance, as he seemed to be in huge troubles.
I don't know if this is the right time or place to do so, but as this is the first time i write about this, i would like to thank everyone active on TL, or active in the SC2 scene in general for helping me to get through a lot of bad times and helping me to recover from an illness i may otherwise not have been able to recover from. Sorry for my bad english and thank you all.
i always knew shit posting could help others people
On April 21 2016 16:12 Charoisaur wrote: When will this shit finally stop..?
Increasing the prize pool would probably help, considering you get 7 times more the money for throwing a match/game than actually winning the tournament itself.
Make progamers more aware of the consequences of such actions.
Protect progamers more than what is already done with fair conditions, better salaries, etc.
Better prize pool would also help I guess.
Protect progamers who are approached to match-fix.
Better surveillance on who is offering these deals and cracking down on betting.
Pretty terrible all around.
They cannot even protect their health with proper educating them of the seating position. Do you really think they will start controlling the environment, new campaign and they offer them better salaries, or that they will try to give them the hardest punishment possible so they do not have to do nothing that would actually help?
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
I am under no circumstances ok with it. It's blatantly throwing away competitive integrity. Some small part of me does think it makes a difference somehow, but still
Bla bla competitive integrity is just a pointless buzzword anyway. I am really fed up with how everyone considers matchfixing worse than mass murder.
I would see an activity that leads you to winning when you would lose anyway as a really big problem for the competition (hacking, stream cheating, whatever .... But deliberately losing, I am just not that crazy about. In particular when it doesn't change the outcome of the series (and the map score is not used for anything). It's worse in PL, when it kinda shits on your teammates, but in individual leagues, it's just up to you, if you really want to lose, isn't it?
And as I have said a dozen times: yes, it's stealing money, but from mainly people who bet illegally - and you are sort of not supposed to expect your investment to be legally protected, when it's against the law in the first place, right?
Damn dude I'm the closest thing you're gonna get to an ally on this issue.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
the Naniwa Probe-Rushing thing was "ok" because that match didnt make any sense. Real matchfixing like in this case is never ok, even if the outcome is the same.
It's ok because he wasn't paid to throw? Not sure what your point is
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
You keep saying Life was a gambler, do we know if that's true, or just a rumor someone spread? I honestly want to know.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
well there were also rumors he was broke because of his gambling problems, but that one is less certain
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
Either way most teenagers don't have 400k to play with and no supervision. Not condoning the match fixing but I don't blame him for fucking up his money if he had no help/support/guidance on that front
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
You keep saying Life was a gambler, do we know if that's true, or just a rumor someone spread? I honestly want to know.
A lot of (reliable) people have corroborated that he loves to gamble. To what extent, we can only speculate.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
Either way most teenagers don't have 400k to play with and no supervision. Not condoning the match fixing but I don't blame him for fucking up his money if he had no help/support/guidance on that front
If I had 400k at 18 I would probably squander it all away too if I spent my childhood playing video games competitively. It doesn't excuse him, but it does put into question his support system. Kespa need to do better about educating and helping these children.
What a terrible end to a legend. I wish it didn't have to come to this.
I keep feeling that we are all living in the darkest timeline. We lost so many great players, personalities, organizations, and tournaments over the years. Despite lingering issues, the game is in its most entertaining iteration right now imo, but it still bums me out that so many have dropped out or faded up until now, and even more players are still potentially on the chopping block.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
I am under no circumstances ok with it. It's blatantly throwing away competitive integrity. Some small part of me does think it makes a difference somehow, but still
Bla bla competitive integrity is just a pointless buzzword anyway. I am really fed up with how everyone considers matchfixing worse than mass murder.
I would see an activity that leads you to winning when you would lose anyway as a really big problem for the competition (hacking, stream cheating, whatever .... But deliberately losing, I am just not that crazy about. In particular when it doesn't change the outcome of the series (and the map score is not used for anything). It's worse in PL, when it kinda shits on your teammates, but in individual leagues, it's just up to you, if you really want to lose, isn't it?
And as I have said a dozen times: yes, it's stealing money, but from mainly people who bet illegally - and you are sort of not supposed to expect your investment to be legally protected, when it's against the law in the first place, right?
Damn dude I'm the closest thing you're gonna get to an ally on this issue.
Well you literally said that you are "under no circumstances ok" (notice me using the world literally correctly for the first time in my life ) that seemed pretty straightforward. Whatever, there is really nothing much to accomplish here, they are gonna get banned for life no matter what discussion we have here and the people who are set on hating any matchfixer with a burning passion won't change their views. I am writing this stuff on the premise that there may be people coming here who don't have a solidified pseudo-moral opinion yet for them to see that other viewpoints do exist. I probably don't do a very good job of that, because I am just not a very good debater, or even an acceptable human being to many, but again, whatever. Peace
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
Stork and Boxer talked about how the Kespa system was kind of shit at support.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
Stork and Boxer talked about how the Kespa system was kind of shit at support.
Which makes me sad. Both Prime and Life problem could have been prevented.
On April 21 2016 17:00 Poopi wrote: I only read the last page and OP, is it confirmed that it is Life? Anyways, finally some news about this, was about time.
Yes, pretty much. One game in question would have to be
On April 21 2016 17:09 Incognoto wrote: I thought "don't gamble" fell under common sense, never saw it as a health issue.
Gamble addiction though? If what is written earlier is right, he wasn't just gambling here and there, he was addicted to it, IMO. WHich is a health issue, isn't it? As other addictions are
On April 21 2016 17:09 Incognoto wrote: I thought "don't gamble" fell under common sense, never saw it as a health issue.
Gamble addiction though? If what is written earlier is right, he wasn't just gambling here and there, he was addicted to it, IMO. WHich is a health issue, isn't it? As other addictions are
yeah he enjoys gambling but that doesn't necessarily mean its a compulsion
On April 21 2016 17:09 Incognoto wrote: I thought "don't gamble" fell under common sense, never saw it as a health issue.
Gamble addiction though? If what is written earlier is right, he wasn't just gambling here and there, he was addicted to it, IMO. WHich is a health issue, isn't it? As other addictions are
Drug addiction isn't a health issue, it's people who lack common sense or who are overly naive.
Same goes to gambling.
Either way, this is off topic so no need to go further.
I certainly think that KeSPA should be taking a nice good hard look at itself in order to figure out if it could be doing anything better than what it currently is in terms of player support.
On April 21 2016 17:09 Incognoto wrote: I thought "don't gamble" fell under common sense, never saw it as a health issue.
Gamble addiction though? If what is written earlier is right, he wasn't just gambling here and there, he was addicted to it, IMO. WHich is a health issue, isn't it? As other addictions are
Yeah, saying that gambling addiction is not a health issue is on the same level as saying that depression is just bad feelings or that people just need to not light cigaretes if they want to quit smoking. It really needs to be recognized as a serious issue, in particular with young people. Not that we really know if Life had actual gambling issues, but people should understand that the possibility exists and that such person needs to be viewed as affected by a health condition, not just "stupid".
edit: dear incongnito, let me give you a couple of heroin shots and then let us see how the addiction is not a health issue and how you can not take any more just because you aren't naive, right?
On April 21 2016 17:09 Incognoto wrote: I thought "don't gamble" fell under common sense, never saw it as a health issue.
I feel like “don't do hard drugs“ is common sense, too, but still lots of (sometimes even very smart people) end up taking them, which also leads to huge health issues. I do not want to deny their guilt, but addictions to gambling for example can make you do things you would have never done otherwise, i mean just look at what some people do to get their drugs. To conclude, i do not want to protect life anymore, but gambling addiction is a big health issue, even though it does not leave visible marks like drugs do.
On April 21 2016 17:09 Incognoto wrote: I thought "don't gamble" fell under common sense, never saw it as a health issue.
Gamble addiction though? If what is written earlier is right, he wasn't just gambling here and there, he was addicted to it, IMO. WHich is a health issue, isn't it? As other addictions are
Drug addiction isn't a health issue, it's people who lack common sense or who are overly naive.
Same goes to gambling.
Either way, this is off topic so no need to go further.
I certainly think that KeSPA should be taking a nice good hard look at itself in order to figure out if it could be doing anything better than what it currently is in terms of player support.
Becoming addicted isn't (necessarily but still can be in various circumstances) but trying to give up something you are addicted to is. Especially if it is physically addictive when just outright quitting can literally kill.
Pray tell me how you're supposed to quit smoking without not lighting cigarrettes?
The person doing the heavy lifting when it comes to stopping addiction at all is always the person who is addicted in the first place. They should have the common sense to know that it's an issue and go out of their way to seek help when they need it. The same thing applies to depression or any other addiction.
Don't blame your doctor because you have cancer because you smoke, don't blame KeSPA because Life possibly gambled away his earnings.
Don't blame anyone because you're too fucking stupid to know not to start drugs or gambling.
Do go out of your way to seek help to break an addiction.
Do NOT blame others because you have an addiction.
Either way this is off topic and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Would be better to remain on topic.
On April 21 2016 17:22 Incognoto wrote: Pray tell me how you're supposed to quit smoking without not lighting cigarrettes?
The person doing the heavy lifting when it comes to stopping addiction at all is always the person who is addicted in the first place. They should have the common sense to know that it's an issue and go out of their way to seek help when they need it. The same thing applies to depression or any other addiction.
Don't blame your doctor because you have cancer because you smoke, don't blame KeSPA because Life possibly gambled away his earnings.
Either way this is off topic and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Would be better to remain on topic.
You take it wrong, nobody is blaming KeSPA because Life was broke. I, personally, am blaming KeSPA for doing nothing and looking at a liability in their system like it's not happening. An addicted person is a liability, everybody fucking knows it. A true addiction is a health issue and needs to be treated by a professional. An alcohol addiction, gambling addiction or drug addiction - all of these are treated in a special building with doctors inside, but hey, there are doctors probably because it is NOT a health issue... WTF, man?
Edit> To be fair, in most organization where you want your members to be clear of any shady activities you are seen as a liability even when you gamble and you are not addicted, because gambling is in general liability(you lose money and need more money to lose the money).
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
Do you feel ok about point shaving, then?
What is point shaving?
Point shaving is trying to reduce your winning margin in games with a point spread. It's most commonly done in basketball because of the high scores. Basically, a team that's favored to win by 20 will, late in the game if they're guaranteed to win, stop playing as hard and try to win by less than 20.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
Do you feel ok about point shaving, then?
What is point shaving?
Point shaving is trying to reduce your winning margin in games with a point spread. It's most commonly done in basketball because of the high scores. Basically, a team that's favored to win by 20 will, late in the game if they're guaranteed to win, stop playing as hard and try to win by less than 20.
On April 21 2016 17:22 Incognoto wrote: Pray tell me how you're supposed to quit smoking without not lighting cigarrettes?
The person doing the heavy lifting when it comes to stopping addiction at all is always the person who is addicted in the first place. They should have the common sense to know that it's an issue and go out of their way to seek help when they need it. The same thing applies to depression or any other addiction.
Don't blame your doctor because you have cancer because you smoke, don't blame KeSPA because Life possibly gambled away his earnings.
Don't blame anyone because you're too fucking stupid to know not to start drugs or gambling.
Do go out of your way to seek help to break an addiction.
Do NOT blame others because you have an addiction.
Either way this is off topic and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Would be better to remain on topic.
It's not just about common sense, it's a mental health issue, if it was so easy to stop people would.
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
Do you feel ok about point shaving, then?
What is point shaving?
Point shaving is trying to reduce your winning margin in games with a point spread. It's most commonly done in basketball because of the high scores. Basically, a team that's favored to win by 20 will, late in the game if they're guaranteed to win, stop playing as hard and try to win by less than 20.
Why?
@Novemberstorm I'm done discussing that topic, thanks.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
Why am I hearing about Life's gambling issues now and not years ago?
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
Why am I hearing about Life's gambling issues now and not years ago?
pretty sure this has been an open secret for a long time
On April 21 2016 17:01 Incognoto wrote: I'm pretty bummed out, can hardly begin to imagine what some people are thinking at this point, especially guys like Zealously.
Can't even imagine to begin how I'd feel like right now if it were Maru. Pretty betrayed, I guess.
It's awful. Life was my favorite progamer, seeing him play would always bring this extra level of excitement. I haven't had much hope that he's innocent since the first accusations and the Korean scene became bland to me all of a sudden. There are other players I like but it has always been Life, then the rest. I'm actually surprised it hit me so hard but it did.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
Why am I hearing about Life's gambling issues now and not years ago?
pretty sure this has been an open secret for a long time
I've literally never seen the word "Life" and "gambling" in the same sentence on this site and I've been around for a while.
Okay, that puts the nail in the coffin for me, finally. I'm not even mad or angry. Be it Prime fixing, Life arrested, WCS changes, LotV as a game that I lost grip on - it's still speculative, I know, but this does not look like Life is guilty. I've been a Life fan, Life was the one inspiring me to play zerg, I cheered for this prodigy over and over again.
I have devoted whole days and weeks to this game. I would spend the whole night awake to be able to watch GSL finals. I'd tryhard to become masters again back in HotS, although I never managed to do it after WoL again. I loved the campaign, I loved everything about this game.
But yeah, that's it. I had my good times, my bad times, I've been constructive (sometimes), I've been toxic (more often ever since WCS changes came), I've had my great discussions and my sick fights. I think it's time to delete my account.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
Why am I hearing about Life's gambling issues now and not years ago?
pretty sure this has been an open secret for a long time
I've literally never seen the word "Life" and "gambling" in the same sentence on this site and I've been around for a while.
I've seen it swirled around in chats a bit, no idea how bad it was.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
Why am I hearing about Life's gambling issues now and not years ago?
pretty sure this has been an open secret for a long time
I've literally never seen the word "Life" and "gambling" in the same sentence on this site and I've been around for a while.
It was mentioned several times in the Life match fixing thread at least.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
Why am I hearing about Life's gambling issues now and not years ago?
pretty sure this has been an open secret for a long time
I've literally never seen the word "Life" and "gambling" in the same sentence on this site and I've been around for a while.
To people saying it's Kespa / Blizzard's fault for not compensating the players well enough:
Raising monetary compensation isn't always going to have a directly positive impact. If you gave a financially irresponsible person even more money it can have a negative effect (which I'm being told Life apparently was). And if there was more money being pumped into an industry that just means the auxiliary (and illegal) industries around it gets more cash flow too. Often when you get to the higher range of compensation it actually has a directly corrupting influence to put that much money into the hands of athletes and promotes frivolous cultures. The examples in sports entertainment athletes and organizations are numerous.
Unless the argument is that the players are being paid starvation or poverty wages inadequate of comparable standards of living to their peers I don't feel like this argument holds any water.
with the SC2 scene beeing what itz currently is i totally understand the reasons behind their actions.. also, f**k those kespa **zi* and bring back Life..
On April 21 2016 17:55 SeriousLus wrote: with the SC2 scene beeing what itz currently is i totally understand the reasons behind their actions.. also, f**k those kespa **zi* and bring back Life..
On April 21 2016 16:32 opisska wrote: Maybe you will call it heresy, but I am not really too offended with someone throwing a game in a series they won at the end anyway. It doesn't really change anything while allowing a player to get a nice side income.
Can you ban people for making posts this incredibly stupid?
I don't find anything stupid on it. Life won the match with throwing a map here and there. As long as it doesn't affect the final result I am OK with it.
I have a stupid question: How do you determine if a map was "thrown". What if in this BO3, he actually lost a map? A purely hypothetical question of course but: He could just agree to the deal and if he loses a map later on says he has fulfilled it.
On April 21 2016 16:49 Comeback_SC2 wrote: Well...time for me to stop being a quiet reader i feel. Life is my age and I have been following and loving that kid since zenex days, and even though Rain became my favorite player ever since his wcs asia games vs. parting, i always looked up to life, as he just felt like someone so special to me. Part of this is because his first incredible run for like half a year i believe was during a time in which i was very ill, while starcraft was something i could hold on and look foward to playing as soon as i got better. Also very sad for Bbyong, if the reason is, as guessed prior, him having to pay for eye surgery, i really hope kespa gives him a second chance, as he seemed to be in huge troubles.
I don't know if this is the right time or place to do so, but as this is the first time i write about this, i would like to thank everyone active on TL, or active in the SC2 scene in general for helping me to get through a lot of bad times and helping me to recover from an illness i may otherwise not have been able to recover from. Sorry for my bad english and thank you all.
I like how you point out your bad English and I didn't find any errors worth mentioning in it.
those were a hell of lot of money for very few games, now i can understand why they accepted. If the thing has continued after the arrest of gerard and the others involved in the prime scandal i guess that it's bigger then than it seems.
On April 21 2016 18:05 Clonester wrote: Oh man, on the same side it is soooo sad... but I couldnt stop laughing after all this "pray for Life" and "innocent until proven guilty!!!!"
Get busted, matchfixers!
yeah, its wrong to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty.
On April 21 2016 18:05 Clonester wrote: Oh man, on the same side it is soooo sad... but I couldnt stop laughing after all this "pray for Life" and "innocent until proven guilty!!!!"
Get busted, matchfixers!
yeah, its wrong to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty.
What you have good cause to believe and what you actually act on can have different standards. That's almost the entire point of "innocent until proven guilty" (so governments/courts have the burden of proof and can't just act based on what people believe to be true). Stating it as if you should never even think somebody is most likely guilty until a court has heard the case is missing the point entirely.
On April 21 2016 17:00 Poopi wrote: I only read the last page and OP, is it confirmed that it is Life? Anyways, finally some news about this, was about time.
Yes, pretty much. One game in question would have to be
6. F/25/borker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
7. G/31/broker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
8. H/33/financier/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
9. I/31/broker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
10. J(=Bbyong)/24/progamer/charge blahblah/ prosecuted without imprisonment
Bbyong's charge: receive 30million won(=about 25 thousand dollar) from H and K and lose the match deliberatly(business obstruction , malpractice with bribe)
On April 21 2016 17:09 Incognoto wrote: I thought "don't gamble" fell under common sense, never saw it as a health issue.
Gamble addiction though? If what is written earlier is right, he wasn't just gambling here and there, he was addicted to it, IMO. WHich is a health issue, isn't it? As other addictions are
Drug addiction isn't a health issue, it's people who lack common sense or who are overly naive.
Same goes to gambling.
Either way, this is off topic so no need to go further.
I certainly think that KeSPA should be taking a nice good hard look at itself in order to figure out if it could be doing anything better than what it currently is in terms of player support.
You don't have the slightest idea what addiction means, right? You know there is a difference between addiction and habit. The one is a medical conditoin, the other one isn't
On April 21 2016 18:05 Clonester wrote: Oh man, on the same side it is soooo sad... but I couldnt stop laughing after all this "pray for Life" and "innocent until proven guilty!!!!"
Get busted, matchfixers!
yeah, its wrong to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty.
What you have good cause to believe and what you actually act on can have different standards. That's almost the entire point of "innocent until proven guilty" (so governments/courts have the burden of proof and can't just act based on what people believe to be true). Stating it as if you should never even think somebody is most likely guilty until a court has heard the case is missing the point entirely.
No that's exactly the point. Think of marineking or that BW guy that got wrongly accused of matchfixing. Wrongly accusing someone of doing a crime can destroy a human. Even if from 100 accusations only 1 people is innocent it's still to much.
On April 21 2016 18:05 Clonester wrote: Oh man, on the same side it is soooo sad... but I couldnt stop laughing after all this "pray for Life" and "innocent until proven guilty!!!!"
Get busted, matchfixers!
yeah, its wrong to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty.
What you have good cause to believe and what you actually act on can have different standards. That's almost the entire point of "innocent until proven guilty" (so governments/courts have the burden of proof and can't just act based on what people believe to be true). Stating it as if you should never even think somebody is most likely guilty until a court has heard the case is missing the point entirely.
No that's exactly the point. Think of marineking or that BW guy that got wrongly accused of matchfixing. Wrongly accusing someone of doing a crime can destroy a human. Even if from 100 accusations only 1 people is innocent it's still to much.
Then you would have to scrap out complete law system, as more then 1% are apparently innocent in prison.
You have to claim that someone is guilty, to atleast get him infront of a court. You can say he is innocent till sentinced by a court (the word "proven doesnt realyl work here, as he will not be proven to be guilty, but a judge will be convinced of his guiltyness by enough evidence). Apparently the prosecutor does not work with "innocent until proven guilty" but with "I see you guilty thanks to this evidence, lets get you infront of a judge".
Not surprising news at all.Given that life has been known since months now and bbyongs disappearance has nevermade sense with an illness. CJ would have openly stated that after all.
On April 21 2016 18:05 Clonester wrote: Oh man, on the same side it is soooo sad... but I couldnt stop laughing after all this "pray for Life" and "innocent until proven guilty!!!!"
Get busted, matchfixers!
Well, he still isn't convicted but that match vs. Terminator sure looks shady. Not quite as shady as some other stuff we've seen but certainly bad enough.
edit: Wait, Life was actually already found guilty? The translated table in a previous comment seems to say so.
6. F/25/borker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
7. G/31/broker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
8. H/33/financier/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
9. I/31/broker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
10. J(=Bbyong)/24/progamer/charge blahblah/ prosecuted without imprisonment
Bbyong's charge: receive 30million won(=about 25 thousand dollar) from H and K and lose the match deliberatly(business obstruction , malpractice with bribe)
Nice, thanks. So no imprisonment for Bbyong. But KeSPA will probably ban him from playing anymore.
I was really worried about Bbyong, thought he had health issues or something. I did not expect this. At least he came forward, I hope they are not too harsh on him, but I guess he will still be banned for life.
Oh yeah and RIP Life.
At this point it does not matter what his punishment from the law will be or what the court decides, no more Life playing sc2.
6. F/25/borker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
7. G/31/broker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
8. H/33/financier/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
9. I/31/broker/charge blahblah/ prosecuted with imprisonment
10. J(=Bbyong)/24/progamer/charge blahblah/ prosecuted without imprisonment
Bbyong's charge: receive 30million won(=about 25 thousand dollar) from H and K and lose the match deliberatly(business obstruction , malpractice with bribe)
Nice, thanks. So no imprisonment for Bbyong. But KeSPA will probably ban him from playing anymore.
I'd be really surprised if they didn't, it'd go against the precedent they set.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
you are 100% right, but unfortunately this kind of reasoning apply everywhere and not particulary here
On April 21 2016 18:27 Musicus wrote: I was really worried about Bbyong, thought he had health issues or something. I did not expect this. At least he came forward, I hope they are not too harsh on him, but I guess he will still be banned for life.
Oh yeah and RIP Life.
At this point it does not matter what his punishment from the law will be or what the court decides, no more Life playing sc2.
So sad .
We might see him stream, a famous LoL streamer does that.
On April 21 2016 18:05 Clonester wrote: Oh man, on the same side it is soooo sad... but I couldnt stop laughing after all this "pray for Life" and "innocent until proven guilty!!!!"
Get busted, matchfixers!
yeah, its wrong to believe someone is innocent until proven guilty.
What you have good cause to believe and what you actually act on can have different standards. That's almost the entire point of "innocent until proven guilty" (so governments/courts have the burden of proof and can't just act based on what people believe to be true). Stating it as if you should never even think somebody is most likely guilty until a court has heard the case is missing the point entirely.
No that's exactly the point. Think of marineking or that BW guy that got wrongly accused of matchfixing. Wrongly accusing someone of doing a crime can destroy a human. Even if from 100 accusations only 1 people is innocent it's still to much.
Then you would have to scrap out complete law system, as more then 1% are apparently innocent in prison.
You have to claim that someone is guilty, to atleast get him infront of a court. You can say he is innocent till sentinced by a court (the word "proven doesnt realyl work here, as he will not be proven to be guilty, but a judge will be convinced of his guiltyness by enough evidence). Apparently the prosecutor does not work with "innocent until proven guilty" but with "I see you guilty thanks to this evidence, lets get you infront of a judge".
the court decides who is guilty and who not. not random people like you and me. if the court thinks they have enough evidence to sentence someone that's what counts and has to be accepted.
Whether courts all function well or not is another story
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I give credit to Bbyong. His career is rightly over, which is a significant loss for Terrankind, but he still did the decent thing in the end and gave information up, and it's good to see that decent action of helping the police be used as a mitigating factor to keep him out of the slammer.
reopened because some new stuff came up: life already sentenced back in january etc
On April 21 2016 15:15 Waxangel wrote:According to Yonhap news (source), Life was found guilty and received a sentence of eighteen months in prison, suspended by three years. A suspended sentence in Korea is similar to pre-emptive probation, with the convicted parties not required to serve their original sentence should they pass the probationary period without infractions. Life was also fined 70,000,000 won, the sum of his compensation for match-fixing.
Life's sentencing is in line with the sentencing from the PRIME match fixing scandal, the Changwon Prosecutor's Office first investigation into match-fixing. Yonhap news reports that prosecutors have appealed the sentencing for being inappropriate, presumably seeking harsher punishment.
Bbyong has also been charged with obstruction of business and receiving bribes, but has yet to receive sentencing.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
You really expected effective jail time for match-fix? It's not like he murdered someone, don't you think?
On April 21 2016 17:22 Incognoto wrote: Pray tell me how you're supposed to quit smoking without not lighting cigarrettes?
The person doing the heavy lifting when it comes to stopping addiction at all is always the person who is addicted in the first place. They should have the common sense to know that it's an issue and go out of their way to seek help when they need it. The same thing applies to depression or any other addiction.
Don't blame your doctor because you have cancer because you smoke, don't blame KeSPA because Life possibly gambled away his earnings.
Don't blame anyone because you're too fucking stupid to know not to start drugs or gambling.
Do go out of your way to seek help to break an addiction.
Do NOT blame others because you have an addiction.
Either way this is off topic and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Would be better to remain on topic.
Spews off topic ignorance. Claims its off topic and irrelevant in own post so nobody can correct you. Classic
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
You really expected effective jail time for match-fix? It's not like he murdered someone, don't you think?
I wouldn't mind a bigger punishment, at least a bigger fine because I hate cheaters.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
Don't you think that's enough of a punishment? Starcraft was all he knew and loved and now he's banned from that, probably lost all his progamer friends and now has to basically start a new life from scratch. I really feel sorry for him despite what he did.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
You really expected effective jail time for match-fix? It's not like he murdered someone, don't you think?
I wouldn't mind a bigger punishment, at least a bigger fine because I hate cheaters.
he also is very young, and has been under the influence of the true bad guys here who are the brokers and financial backers. this is not an excuse, but if justice says it is, then good for him.
Too bad :/ Still this doesn't change the fact that Life is the best player sc2 has ever seen to this point. He made a silly mistake and gets the punishment for it (never be able to play again) but all he did till this point still has value. Life still GOAT material imo.
edit: Bbyong as well though, and i wished him luck for his "health issues" -.-
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
Don't you think that's enough of a punishment? Starcraft was all he knew and loved and now he's banned from that, probably lost all his progamer friends and now has to basically start a new life from scratch. I really feel sorry for him despite what he did.
If he loved StarCraft enough he wouldn't have matchfix. He should know well enough that this scandal is going to deal a hard blow to the the honesty and market ability of this game
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
You really expected effective jail time for match-fix? It's not like he murdered someone, don't you think?
I wouldn't mind a bigger punishment, at least a bigger fine because I hate cheaters.
KESPA can still go for a civil process against Life and try to get some money for the damage life has done to the scene. But it is unlikely, first because it is hard to judge if and how much damage such a matchfixer did to the scene as also KESPA has a special intereset in getting this done and dusted and not fight infront of a judge for the next months.
The punishment he got is about what to expect. It is likely that due to his gambling adiction Life has not soo much money like you think he has. Also you dont send a 19 year old guy who is first time infront of a judge to a prison, thats just not the way to get him back on track. I hoped for him to get, on top of probation, alot of hours in social service. The state wants him to become once a again a good citizen, not punish him such hard that he just runs again into some criminal shit (like prisons are often breeding cells and universities for criminals). Send him to his army duty, then let him return to some 2nd way education.
We all hate cheaters/matchfixers, but in the end they must be reasonable with their punishment.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
Don't you think that's enough of a punishment? Starcraft was all he knew and loved and now he's banned from that, probably lost all his progamer friends and now has to basically start a new life from scratch. I really feel sorry for him despite what he did.
If he loved StarCraft enough he wouldn't have matchfix. He should know well enough that this scandal is going to deal a hard blow to the the honesty and market ability of this game
He's 19. He was 13 during the savior scandal. I doubt he really knew what impact this would have.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
Don't you think that's enough of a punishment? Starcraft was all he knew and loved and now he's banned from that, probably lost all his progamer friends and now has to basically start a new life from scratch. I really feel sorry for him despite what he did.
As someone already mentioned, if he really "loved" Starcraft then he wouldn't do this. If anything, lack of punishment might encourage MORE match fixing because he wasn't properly punished so basically people can do this at some point and walk away from Starcraft 2 like nothing happened.
On April 22 2016 00:18 Larkin wrote: Hope Life goes to prison. He was supposed to be one of the faces of SC2 eSports.
Are you serious? Sending a 19 year old to prison because he threw a few games in a computer game. You're ridicolous.
I am not saying that i would send him to prison, but the "oh he is 19 and it's a computer game" reasoning is absurd. 19, so he is an adult and should know what he is doing. A computer game which pays absurd amounts of money, it's a job just as any other job is. This isn't me losing on purpose on ladder, this is a progamer who throws professional matches for money. Let's be reasonable.
On April 22 2016 00:18 Larkin wrote: Hope Life goes to prison. He was supposed to be one of the faces of SC2 eSports.
Are you serious? Sending a 19 year old to prison because he threw a few games in a computer game. You're ridicolous.
I am not saying that i would send him to prison, but the "oh he is 19 and it's a computer game" reasoning is absurd. 19, so he is an adult and should know what he is doing. A computer game which pays absurd amounts of money, it's a job just as any other job is. This isn't me losing on purpose on ladder, this is a progamer who throws professional matches for money. Let's be reasonable.
Oh c'mon, this discussion is ridiculous.
He's 19. It's his first offense. It has low or near to none social danger. The amount of money lost due to his crimes is ridiculously low.
The punishment is actually pretty harsh compared to Czech Republic. Prison doesn't even come to a discussion because of all of what I have wrote up.
+ Both you and Nerchio probably do not know how it looks in prison and don't understand what prison life is about. I have at least insider insight. Prison in this case would have done more harm than good, probably destroyed a young man who could become a valuable member of society(read as has job, family and children and pays taxes)
Anyway, even if he got into prison, by Czech standards he would be able to walk away freely, he could be wearing whatever he wants and basically it would be a long term camp where he can meet a truly "inspiring" people.
C'mon, be reasonable... SC2 isn't the purpose of life () nor the universe.
Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
Don't you think that's enough of a punishment? Starcraft was all he knew and loved and now he's banned from that, probably lost all his progamer friends and now has to basically start a new life from scratch. I really feel sorry for him despite what he did.
As someone already mentioned, if he really "loved" Starcraft then he wouldn't do this. If anything, lack of punishment might encourage MORE match fixing because he wasn't properly punished so basically people can do this at some point and walk away from Starcraft 2 like nothing happened.
That's a romanticized view of the world. "If you loved X you wouldn't do Y" doesn't apply in reality. People love things and people and then they screw up. This is not a cheap Hollywood love flick.
Whatever happens, I hope the punishment fits the crime.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
Well that reasoning is actually summing up what I wrote. That the society danger is low, it's his first crime and he has a high chance of fixing himself
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Still a big leap to say that he gambled literally all of his money away lol
MC confirmed he saw him gamble 20000 away in one night. Make of that what you will.
I feel people are more willing to be lenient because Life was (one of) the best SC2 players rather than some tier 2/3 player that can be burnt at the stake without hurting the scene that much.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
Good thing you aren't a lawmaker then.
So you would compare cheating in a videogame to terrible crimes upon fellow man?
I just don't undersand it. BByong grabbed freaking 30k$ like it was a great deal. and when the Life got caught he suddenly began to feel guilty about it. If he was afraid to get caught, there's no guarantee he fixed only that one exact series. And it also suggests no one feared fixing at that time, so there's absolutely no agreement that all fixes have been already found out. Yet people are much more lenient on BBYong.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
Good thing you aren't a lawmaker then.
So you would compare cheating in a videogame to terrible crimes upon fellow man?
Why do you all feel the need to downplay Life's crime as much as possible? "cheating in a videogame" Srsly?
If you should go to jail for what he did is another disucssion, but can we pls not pretend he simply left a laddergame he had won so someone else would get the points.
I haven't watched GSL for about a year or so but I remember these two. Very sad to hear, but I agree they should be permabanned by Kespa, it's the only way the other players will know to take these things seriously.
Funny to me how the public statement about the life for Leenock trade was that Life "requested" to be traded. He either wanted to go to a smaller team because he knew he was being investigated and wanted to be out of the limelight or KT knew what was up and wanted him gone so it wouldn't stain their reputation.
Umm I could be wrong, but according to Liquipedia http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_KeSPA_Cup_Season_1 Life won both of those matches. Do they mean that Life got paid to drop a specific map, like first map or so, to get the money? Anyone?
On April 22 2016 05:18 Platypus1 wrote: Umm I could be wrong, but according to Liquipedia http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_KeSPA_Cup_Season_1 Life won both of those matches. Do they mean that Life got paid to drop a specific map, like first map or so, to get the money? Anyone?
They payed him to lose one specific map, as you can bet on single matches and not only sets.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
gambling is illegal in korea thus real crime game over for your argument
On April 22 2016 02:15 Dionyseus wrote: I haven't watched GSL for about a year or so but I remember these two. Very sad to hear, but I agree they should be permabanned by Kespa, it's the only way the other players will know to take these things seriously.
That's just not true though. Nobody has ever considered a crime and thought "oh the punishment for this is only a year ban as opposed to a life ban, I guess I can do it!"
"It's only a video game" is a completely inane hypocritical argument
esports is a multimillion dollar industry BUILT on the fact that these players are giving their all to compete with each other, and that we are able to take the results of individual matches as legitimate
match fixing completely unravels the foundation of that industry
so sure, it's "just a video game" that supports hundreds of peoples' livelihoods and hundreds of thousands of peoples' passions
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
You do know that what they are doing is rigging the bets, which is pretty similar to theft in nature? Financial crime is just like theft, but there are more victims.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
Good thing you aren't a lawmaker then.
So you would compare cheating in a videogame to terrible crimes upon fellow man?
Why do you all feel the need to downplay Life's crime as much as possible? "cheating in a videogame" Srsly?
If you should go to jail for what he did is another disucssion, but can we pls not pretend he simply left a laddergame he had won so someone else would get the points.
I don't pretend like he simply left a laddergame. Lifetime ban from sc2 is completely appropiate I just think jail is completely out of place for what he did and I'm disgusted by people who wish him to go to jail. I bet none of you has the slightest clue how it is in jail. That's not something you wish to anyone except he really did something terrible like murder etc.
Depends on the country. Whether the country wants to focus on the "punish" aspect of jail or the "correct the behavior" aspect. I know its kinda silly to go jail for playing a computer game but you have to realize its the same thing as theft. He didn't get jail time for losing on purpose. He got jail time for making money from it, in a country where it is illegal.
On April 22 2016 06:56 Latham wrote: Depends on the country. Whether the country wants to focus on the "punish" aspect of jail or the "correct the behavior" aspect. I know its kinda silly to go jail for playing a computer game but you have to realize its the same thing as theft. He didn't get jail time for losing on purpose. He got jail time for making money from it, in a country where it is illegal.
Yeah, their approach is much different, and the view they have after these events is much different. There are interviews with Savior talking about how he couldn't even leave his house because he was so scared following the events and such. It's probably the same for these guys.
Really sad about life.. I think people like Bbyong deserve some respect even in lieu of their shit decisions.
Another sad set of news though
Wonder what will happen to life's trophies? The games he threw were literally just a cool tournament rather than a code S/proleague so I really feel bad that he did this... tarnishes his whole reputation even tho his skill is obviously so high Literally the best Z player just rekt himself in terms of career opportunity D:
It's a shame its only a suspended sentence for Life. I assume Kespa bans him for life, which is somewhat reassuring. His punishment should have been harsher (even if not necessarily jail time) given that this time around (unlike the SaviOr incident) everyone knew what was at stake. If he knew all that and still didn't have the morality or common sense to think twice, then he deserves much worse.
I don't particularly understand the people asking for him to not be permabanned from Kespa. By 13 I had my priorities straight enough that I would not 1. Needlessly gamble away my earnings. 2. Cheat or otherwise do illegal things for money, especially for something so large scale. Then again, I could be in the minority.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
Good thing you aren't a lawmaker then.
So you would compare cheating in a videogame to terrible crimes upon fellow man?
Why do you all feel the need to downplay Life's crime as much as possible? "cheating in a videogame" Srsly?
If you should go to jail for what he did is another disucssion, but can we pls not pretend he simply left a laddergame he had won so someone else would get the points.
I don't pretend like he simply left a laddergame. Lifetime ban from sc2 is completely appropiate I just think jail is completely out of place for what he did and I'm disgusted by people who wish him to go to jail. I bet none of you has the slightest clue how it is in jail. That's not something you wish to anyone except he really did something terrible like murder etc.
As i said two times already, i don't say he should or should not go to jail for what he did. I simply disagree with the wording of some people as if what he did wasn't bad at all because it's "only a videogame" That pov is imo ridiculous.
There are also a lot of crimes you can commit which aren't about violence which still should be punished with jail time, don't you think?
On April 22 2016 07:24 vicml21 wrote: It's a shame its only a suspended sentence for Life. I assume Kespa bans him for life, which is somewhat reassuring. His punishment should have been harsher (even if not necessarily jail time) given that this time around (unlike the SaviOr incident) everyone knew what was at stake. If he knew all that and still didn't have the morality or common sense to think twice, then he deserves much worse.
I don't particularly understand the people asking for him to not be permabanned from Kespa. By 13 I had my priorities straight enough that I would not 1. Needlessly gamble away my earnings. 2. Cheat or otherwise do illegal things for money, especially for something so large scale. Then again, I could be in the minority.
you aren't necessarily in the minority.
But I can understand the arguments on both sides. Somewhat similar to restorative justice vs punitive justice. Both can work.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
Good thing you aren't a lawmaker then.
So you would compare cheating in a videogame to terrible crimes upon fellow man?
Why do you all feel the need to downplay Life's crime as much as possible? "cheating in a videogame" Srsly?
If you should go to jail for what he did is another disucssion, but can we pls not pretend he simply left a laddergame he had won so someone else would get the points.
I don't pretend like he simply left a laddergame. Lifetime ban from sc2 is completely appropiate I just think jail is completely out of place for what he did and I'm disgusted by people who wish him to go to jail. I bet none of you has the slightest clue how it is in jail. That's not something you wish to anyone except he really did something terrible like murder etc.
As i said two times already, i don't say he should or should not go to jail for what he did. I simply disagree with the wording of some people as if what he did wasn't bad at all because it's "only a videogame" That pov is imo ridiculous.
There are also a lot of crimes you can commit which aren't about violence which still should be punished with jail time, don't you think?
That's actually a really interesting discussion (your last sentence, I mean). Imo a crime that isn't about violence should, at best as possible, be dealt with while avoiding jail, because the only really useful purpose of jail is to prevent violent criminals from committing violence on anyone who isn't another violent criminal. Basically, jail is here to protect the "innocent" citizens, not to "make people pay" or w/e bullshit.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
You really expected effective jail time for match-fix? It's not like he murdered someone, don't you think?
I wouldn't mind a bigger punishment, at least a bigger fine because I hate cheaters.
"I hate X so the punishment will be bigger" is not how you do justice.
Nice to see that life gets to keep pretty much all of his winnnings at the very least. Nobody can take those victories away from him. It is probably best he doesn't play pro sc2 again but hes old enough to start thinking about a future after gaming.
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
Good thing you aren't a lawmaker then.
So you would compare cheating in a videogame to terrible crimes upon fellow man?
Why do you all feel the need to downplay Life's crime as much as possible? "cheating in a videogame" Srsly?
If you should go to jail for what he did is another disucssion, but can we pls not pretend he simply left a laddergame he had won so someone else would get the points.
I don't pretend like he simply left a laddergame. Lifetime ban from sc2 is completely appropiate I just think jail is completely out of place for what he did and I'm disgusted by people who wish him to go to jail. I bet none of you has the slightest clue how it is in jail. That's not something you wish to anyone except he really did something terrible like murder etc.
As i said two times already, i don't say he should or should not go to jail for what he did. I simply disagree with the wording of some people as if what he did wasn't bad at all because it's "only a videogame" That pov is imo ridiculous.
There are also a lot of crimes you can commit which aren't about violence which still should be punished with jail time, don't you think?
That's actually a really interesting discussion (your last sentence, I mean). Imo a crime that isn't about violence should, at best as possible, be dealt with while avoiding jail, because the only really useful purpose of jail is to prevent violent criminals from committing violence on anyone who isn't another violent criminal. Basically, jail is here to protect the "innocent" citizens, not to "make people pay" or w/e bullshit.
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
You really expected effective jail time for match-fix? It's not like he murdered someone, don't you think?
I wouldn't mind a bigger punishment, at least a bigger fine because I hate cheaters.
"I hate X so the punishment will be bigger" is not how you do justice.
I don't wanna derail this thread, but i am not sure if i agree with this. Why is the aspect of punishment not valid? Additionaly jail time protects people from other crimes as well, why is only violence "bad enough" to make protection mandatory? Again, not saying Life should go to jail for this (also not saying that he shouldn't go 100% though), just a general thought
On April 22 2016 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: Did you actually read what i wrote? "I am not saying that i would send him to prison"
But the reasoning of "hey he is only 19 and it's just a videogame" is more than absurd. It isn't just a videogame in the context of Life and 19 is old enough to be responsible for the things you do. That's all i wanted to say.
"It's just a video game" was probably a bit simplistic but compared to REAL crimes like murder, theft or rape it's really nothing. A jail sentence is completely out of place.
Good thing you aren't a lawmaker then.
So you would compare cheating in a videogame to terrible crimes upon fellow man?
Why do you all feel the need to downplay Life's crime as much as possible? "cheating in a videogame" Srsly?
If you should go to jail for what he did is another disucssion, but can we pls not pretend he simply left a laddergame he had won so someone else would get the points.
I don't pretend like he simply left a laddergame. Lifetime ban from sc2 is completely appropiate I just think jail is completely out of place for what he did and I'm disgusted by people who wish him to go to jail. I bet none of you has the slightest clue how it is in jail. That's not something you wish to anyone except he really did something terrible like murder etc.
As i said two times already, i don't say he should or should not go to jail for what he did. I simply disagree with the wording of some people as if what he did wasn't bad at all because it's "only a videogame" That pov is imo ridiculous.
There are also a lot of crimes you can commit which aren't about violence which still should be punished with jail time, don't you think?
That's actually a really interesting discussion (your last sentence, I mean). Imo a crime that isn't about violence should, at best as possible, be dealt with while avoiding jail, because the only really useful purpose of jail is to prevent violent criminals from committing violence on anyone who isn't another violent criminal. Basically, jail is here to protect the "innocent" citizens, not to "make people pay" or w/e bullshit.
On April 21 2016 23:40 Nerchio wrote:
On April 21 2016 23:17 Apoteosis wrote:
On April 21 2016 23:15 Nerchio wrote: So Life basically has no punishment except not being able to play starcraft? He only needed to pay the fine equal to the money he got for matchfixing
You really expected effective jail time for match-fix? It's not like he murdered someone, don't you think?
I wouldn't mind a bigger punishment, at least a bigger fine because I hate cheaters.
"I hate X so the punishment will be bigger" is not how you do justice.
I don't wanna derail this thread, but i am not sure if i agree with this. Why is the aspect of punishment not valid? Additionaly jail time protects people from other crimes as well, why is only violence "bad enough" to make protection mandatory? Again, not saying Life should go to jail for this (also not saying that he shouldn't go 100% though), just a general thought
First off because violent crimes directly threaten someone's life on short notice, thus the offenders should be absolutely prevented from doing it again ; however, non-violent crimes won't directly threaten someone's life, thus, as most crimes are "systemic", you have more room to focus on fixing the "systemic" bit. If we take a quick look at common non-violent crimes (ignoring prostitution and drugs-related stuff because it's kinda obvious that people don't need protection from Coke Addict #0345 or his dealer), these will be : bribery, tax/financial crimes, and non-violent theft. Seeing this list, you might think that you need to be protected from them : after all, an member of administration who's bribed to, I dunno, put your business down through annoying administrative means can destroy your life in the long term. But here's the thing : bribery and white collar crime usually don't happen alone ; they're not something that appears out of thin air, but a result of a real "culture" of bribery in a given place/profession/group/whatever. Same with white collar crime.
The result is that, with jail for things like these, assuming you apply the law equally and indiscriminately, you end up with a whole lot (and I mean a really whole lot) of people in jail, up to the point where you're greatly damaging the efficiency of whatever administrative branch had bribery, for example. Instead, if you consider a systemic approach, by neutralizing the causes of bribery, you'll greatly reduce the damages of bribery, thus reducing the need to protect people from bribery. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be punished for bribery : that goes through reparative justice and fines.
Now, theft is a more complicated beast. The above reasoning basically applies, with "causes for theft" ('cuz ofc thieves wouldn't theft if they could make more money through legal means for the same effort - or the same amount of money for less effort) replacing "culture of bribery". But, you can argue, and I'd recognize that, that thieves can be arrested en masse without affecting the society's productivity.
Punishment is deserved but it doesn't stop me from feeling for these guys. They're kids. I don't know what circumstances lead them to accept the fix, whether it was just the money or whether there was anything more sinister, but I'm glad they're not going to prison. The likelihood of them reoffending is low and the punishment is harsh enough to deter others from going down that path.
All that time playing competitively to now lose the ability to draw an income from SC2 as well as lose the money from the bribes is enough. Sad times for all involved, no winners here.
On April 22 2016 06:56 Latham wrote: Depends on the country. Whether the country wants to focus on the "punish" aspect of jail or the "correct the behavior" aspect. I know its kinda silly to go jail for playing a computer game but you have to realize its the same thing as theft. He didn't get jail time for losing on purpose. He got jail time for making money from it, in a country where it is illegal.
I dont see how its the same as theft. Theft is physically taking other peoples property. This is more akin to fraud, but its fraud within a system that is known (to anyone who's not an abject fool) to be heavily fraudulent. After this scandal, do you think the remains of the scene will be an honourable one? Of course not. The koreans that remain will take money tomorrow just like they did yesterday. And they do that in every single esport, past present and future. I hardly feel defrauded as a viewer that quite a number of games were rigged; I came into the process of viewing knowing that already. Every single person must have. Theres no excuse for naivete.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
I agree with you completely. Teams are really concerned with making the most money they can out of these kids and when something goes wrong they throw them under the bus.
On April 22 2016 07:07 Shana wrote: Jail time for Life please
You'd be a great American, they lock everybody up here.
I think it's kind of insane of prosecutors to want a harsher sentence for someone who cheated at a video game, even if gambling is involved. Gambling is a petty crime at best.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
I agree with you completely. Teams are really concerned with making the most money they can out of these kids and when something goes wrong they throw them under the bus.
On April 22 2016 07:07 Shana wrote: Jail time for Life please
You'd be a great American, they lock everybody up here.
I think it's kind of insane of prosecutors to want a harsher sentence for someone who cheated at a video game, even if gambling is involved. Gambling is a petty crime at best.
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
I agree with you completely. Teams are really concerned with making the most money they can out of these kids and when something goes wrong they throw them under the bus.
Good points made.
Different countries different system. Gambling is illegal there. Not only that, committing fraud to swing a bet in your favor is also huge. 70K USD is a lot of money, whether it be America or Korea. I could see why they want to punish him. But then again, he'll probably just be put on probation for a few years like Savior did. That's getting off pretty lightly to me. At least he's still young. He can still go to college and do stuff with his life. Although given how Korean shaming system works, his family wont be able to show their face in a while. Oh well, such is life.
The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Coming back to sc2 after a long break only to find my favorite player in Life has been charged for match fixing This is heartbreaking for me and another hit to sc2 as a whole. Sad sad days.
Sadly, the offence is not just the money they received it has additional implications. Someone payed them to do this and likely made a lot more money in an illegal way than what was offered to the players. And that also affected a lot of other people that honestly bet money on X winning that game, not knowing it was fixed.
That kind of thing does cause disturbance in the society, for gaming companies, betting companies and regular consumers.
Oh god, not Bbyong too... I liked that guy, I had him on FPL a bunch of times and I liked his playstyle and personality...
Well, at least he deserves some kudos for turning himself in; that's the right thing to do and hopefully it will play a role in convincing others that matchfixing is NOT ok...
Something seriously has to be done with improving the conditions of players so that they are not incentivized to matchfix, and the gambling side more harshly enforced...sad because I think in the abstract having a betting scene is not bad for a sport, but I don't know how much actual, engaged, PLAYING community starcraft has even received due to having betting and it has certainly caused damage with all these scandals...
On April 22 2016 20:11 Zealously wrote: Well this is depressing.
I feel your pain. :/ I was such a die hard Life fan and remained to this day checking TL for Life news and checked brackets just to see how he did. It was agony waiting all this time to hear the result and this was not the result I would have liked to hear. ;~; I guess the kid will learn from the experience, but it's still upsetting.
On April 23 2016 01:04 SuperHofmann wrote: Are they both banned for ever by KeSPA?
Safe to assume so.
Well I think it too but it wasn't clear in the official statement. But if YoDa and BboongBboong are permanetly banned Life and Byong are supposed to be the same.
On April 22 2016 07:07 Shana wrote: Jail time for Life please
You'd be a great American, they lock everybody up here.
I think it's kind of insane of prosecutors to want a harsher sentence for someone who cheated at a video game, even if gambling is involved. Gambling is a petty crime at best.
On April 22 2016 12:58 Snijjer wrote:
On April 21 2016 17:03 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 21 2016 16:59 lichter wrote:
On April 21 2016 16:58 HolydaKing wrote:
On April 21 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: A better support structure is what is necessary. How do you raise a kid that's earned 400k and then let him squander it all away on vice and gambling?
I heard he gave basically all of his prize money to his parents, not sure if true. So perhaps he wasn't quite that rich.
It's a widely known "secret" that he had gambling problems
It's Mvp that bought his parents a house.
Which follows what I wrote earlier. Teams want 110 % from players but they cannot protect their health. Gambling addiction is a health issue and what more, makes the player liability to the competition! And nothing happened. PLayers have wrist issues, nobody cares. Players are slaves(hey, Prime) and nobody cares. Players throw a map here and there and KeSPA lose their mind. WTF? Am I the only one who see a HUGE problem in it?
I agree with you completely. Teams are really concerned with making the most money they can out of these kids and when something goes wrong they throw them under the bus.
Good points made.
Different countries different system. Gambling is illegal there. Not only that, committing fraud to swing a bet in your favor is also huge. 70K USD is a lot of money, whether it be America or Korea. I could see why they want to punish him. But then again, he'll probably just be put on probation for a few years like Savior did. That's getting off pretty lightly to me. At least he's still young. He can still go to college and do stuff with his life. Although given how Korean shaming system works, his family wont be able to show their face in a while. Oh well, such is life.
99% (or all) systems of gambling are crooked (rigged), so to me all of this is thieves code stuff. And you are right, gambling is illegal there, which I think adds some legitimacy to the punishment, but I certainly do not think it warrants more.
Saying jail is a good place to house people that manipulate gambling, is like saying jail is a good place for a pot head.
You give the former a living wage/good paying job, you give the latter good community/a sport or passion to drive their energy into mastery... You give them both the tools they need to manage and thrive amongst the inner turmoil of the human emotional world.
Teach them a way to exist without having to manage their experience through drugs or gambling.
If you lock them in a cage and forget about them. Years later after you let them out, you will probably find that torture sows dark seeds.
On April 23 2016 01:04 SuperHofmann wrote: Are they both banned for ever by KeSPA?
Safe to assume so.
I wonder if they'd give Bbyong a non permanent suspension because he turned himself in. I assume he's banned for life but I could see an exception because he turned himself in.
On April 23 2016 01:04 SuperHofmann wrote: Are they both banned for ever by KeSPA?
Safe to assume so.
I wonder if they'd give Bbyong a non permanent suspension because he turned himself in. I assume he's banned for life but I could see an exception because he turned himself in.
On April 23 2016 01:04 SuperHofmann wrote: Are they both banned for ever by KeSPA?
Safe to assume so.
I wonder if they'd give Bbyong a non permanent suspension because he turned himself in. I assume he's banned for life but I could see an exception because he turned himself in.
No exception, as some form of suspension is necessary regardless of turning himself in. A lessened suspension would probably be best though.
On April 23 2016 19:25 MaximilianKohler wrote: Will life still be able to play in other tournaments like the GSL?
It would be such a horrible loss for SC2 if arguably the best player was gone forever.
i dont think getting rid of a person fixing game results in tournaments and actively harming the integrity of the scene is any loss at all
I can't see how Life could play the game again, but saying he's the one harming the integrity of the scene is kinda naive and childish.
Bbyong got, got for loosing one single code A map (which didn't prevent him from qualifying for code S) 30 000 000 wons, which is, if I'm not mistaken, far more than what Code S runner up will get.
The amount of money here is simply crazy, and I don't think being scared of the prosecutor and Korean justice will be enough to stop match fixing.
It's not Life or Bbyong who are damaging the scene's intergrity, it's the whole illegal betting mob in South Korea, and it won't stop just because Life and Bbyong are banned forever.
At this point, I wondering if Blizzard's decision to lock region and focus on the foreign scene was not actually the genius move of the year.
On April 23 2016 19:25 MaximilianKohler wrote: Will life still be able to play in other tournaments like the GSL?
It would be such a horrible loss for SC2 if arguably the best player was gone forever.
i dont think getting rid of a person fixing game results in tournaments and actively harming the integrity of the scene is any loss at all
I can't see how Life could play the game again, but saying he's the one harming the integrity of the scene is kinda naive and childish.
Bbyong got, got for loosing one single code A map (which didn't prevent him from qualifying for code S) 30 000 000 wons, which is, if I'm not mistaken, far more than what Code S runner up will get.
The amount of money here is simply crazy, and I don't think being scared of the prosecutor and Korean justice will be enough to stop match fixing.
It's not Life or Bbyong who are damaging the scene's intergrity, it's the whole illegal betting mob in South Korea, and it won't stop just because Life and Bbyong are banned forever.
At this point, I wondering if Blizzard's decision to lock region and focus on the foreign scene was not actually the genius move of the year.
Something is rotten in South Korea.
im sure life and bbyong were hypnotized by the mob to throw games
On April 23 2016 19:25 MaximilianKohler wrote: Will life still be able to play in other tournaments like the GSL?
It would be such a horrible loss for SC2 if arguably the best player was gone forever.
i dont think getting rid of a person fixing game results in tournaments and actively harming the integrity of the scene is any loss at all
Will you say the same when we'll discover that there are much, much more than 4 progamers involved?
Yes. If you don't excuse PRIME who were basically forced to sell games, why would you excuse anyone else?
Well, be ready to only watch WCS, then. Bribery is most often something systemic/cultural, meaning that it is best to fix the system instead of punishing individual offenders. Just like if you have a whole administration that is corrupt, you'll fix corruption, you won't throw the whole administration in jail. Because then, you don't have anyone to replace them. And the added facts that matchfixing pays that much, and that even one of the best player matchfixed, are a clear sign that we are facing a "cultural" kind of bribery.
On April 23 2016 19:25 MaximilianKohler wrote: Will life still be able to play in other tournaments like the GSL?
It would be such a horrible loss for SC2 if arguably the best player was gone forever.
i dont think getting rid of a person fixing game results in tournaments and actively harming the integrity of the scene is any loss at all
I can't see how Life could play the game again, but saying he's the one harming the integrity of the scene is kinda naive and childish.
Bbyong got, got for loosing one single code A map (which didn't prevent him from qualifying for code S) 30 000 000 wons, which is, if I'm not mistaken, far more than what Code S runner up will get.
The amount of money here is simply crazy, and I don't think being scared of the prosecutor and Korean justice will be enough to stop match fixing.
It's not Life or Bbyong who are damaging the scene's intergrity, it's the whole illegal betting mob in South Korea, and it won't stop just because Life and Bbyong are banned forever.
At this point, I wondering if Blizzard's decision to lock region and focus on the foreign scene was not actually the genius move of the year.
Something is rotten in South Korea.
im sure life and bbyong were hypnotized by the mob to throw games
because thats not naive
I must have failed to make myself clear enough, sorry.
What I say is the players are not the problem and you can hit them as hard as you can, you will never solve the match fixing issue.
Actually, fighting illegal betting may require the same kind of process used to fight mafias : guarantee immunity to all players that'll talk and erase their past.
It's the brokers, betters and anyone having an active role approaching and corrupting the players that are the main targets.
I honestly think the Marineking vs Byul game warrants re-investigation as well as the San vs Dark game in light of Life and Bbyong matchfixing, as the MK game was pretty blatant combined with the suspicious line movement, and the San game was the first suspicious game voided by Pinnacle (also both players haven't played since July of 2015).
But seriously, it must be said, that those numbers on fix-sums are quite scary. Now, with such money in play (and heck, i am certain the return on investment was great as well), it's kinda obvious this stuff thrives.
On April 24 2016 03:42 lolfail9001 wrote: But seriously, it must be said, that those numbers on fix-sums are quite scary. Now, with such money in play (and heck, i am certain the return on investment was great as well), it's kinda obvious this stuff thrives.
So, what does happen to Korean scene next?
It is a little alarmig just how much more they got compared to the Prime guys. AFAIK none of the offers for match fixing approached these sums either, nor did Saviors fixing ring.
I know Kespa has a zero-tolerance policy towards matchfixing because of how prevalent an issue it was in the past, but I feel like in this case a fine and a suspension would be enough. The games Life threw, in matches he went on to win anyways as many have noted, in my mind falls more along the lines of poor sportsmanship than cheating. Losing one of the best players in the world will cost them more in the long run than if they were to allow him to continue playing.
If a player wanted to cheat gamblers out of money, which also seems like a legitimate concern on some level (even though sports gambling is illegal in Korea), they can do that without receiving payment and would then receive no punishment. Infact, I'm convinced Korean pros do this all the time, doing illogical build orders and building units or buildings at weird timings just to **** with gamblers, without making any money off of it. But this is pure speculation, and has little to do with Life.
On April 24 2016 12:41 Dabble wrote: I know Kespa has a zero-tolerance policy towards matchfixing because of how prevalent an issue it was in the past, but I feel like in this case a fine and a suspension would be enough. The games Life threw, in matches he went on to win anyways as many have noted, in my mind falls more along the lines of poor sportsmanship than cheating. Losing one of the best players in the world will cost them more in the long run than if they were to allow him to continue playing.
If a player wanted to cheat gamblers out of money, which also seems like a legitimate concern on some level (even though sports gambling is illegal in Korea), they can do that without receiving payment and would then receive no punishment. Infact, I'm convinced Korean pros do this all the time, doing illogical build orders and building units or buildings at weird timings just to **** with gamblers, without making any money off of it. But this is pure speculation, and has little to do with Life.
I'd say that specially since he is one of the best, he should be made an example of and be out of the game for good. Getting caught should be the eDeath penalty (as I think getting caught on serious stuff in real sports should be)
And I am \ was a "hardcore" life fanboy, and I'm now stuck without anyone too truely root for. :/
So sad that one of my favorite players that brought me so much enjoyment watching over the years will now likely have his amazing feats scrubbed from the record books or taboo to acknowledge. I'm disappointed in his actions, but it saddens me more that he ruined his legacy.
Well, Nestea's SC2 zerg bonjwa status is now undisputed.
On April 24 2016 12:41 Dabble wrote: I know Kespa has a zero-tolerance policy towards matchfixing because of how prevalent an issue it was in the past, but I feel like in this case a fine and a suspension would be enough. The games Life threw, in matches he went on to win anyways as many have noted, in my mind falls more along the lines of poor sportsmanship than cheating. Losing one of the best players in the world will cost them more in the long run than if they were to allow him to continue playing.
Life was sentenced by a court, in Korean law he's a legitimate criminal. By (basically) pardoning him, KeSPA would send the wrong signals. Not to mention, they would give other players of similar caliber (Maru, INnoVation, sOs, Zest, etc.) a carte blanche to throw games for money if they feel like it.
Sad to see Bbyong fall to Match fixing too. Wasn't one on my list. Makes me pretty confident at its peak a double digit percentage of players fixed at least one match as I can think of about 5 who got away with it and that's now at least two players I didn't even suspect who seem to be pretty clear match fixers. I wouldn't be shocked if 10+ of the top 100 ranked players as of around the start of 2015 fixed at least one match, so far I think we're at 4 confirmed right with a few others that aren't 'confirmed' but seem overwhelmingly likely
To anyone talking jail sentences it's a first offense that's absurd, fines/confiscation of match fixing money and probation etc are proportionate to the crime along with lifetime bans from all esports for all match fixers obviously.
I don't think this is the end of it yet unfortunately but it's another step in the right direction I assume the more this happens the fewer cases of match fixing will occur as the progamers start to realise that the risk of getting caught may not be worth it.
On April 25 2016 06:42 Dabble wrote: Let me rephrase my poor sportsmanship comment.
What it boils down to is: Life was rude for money. He got paid... to be rude.
Which is illegal.
So the money effort and time that kespa and blizzard, and whoever else has a hand in the production of these tournaments, puts forward to fund a legitimate event should have no bearing on this? If it was a match in a PC bang these people were betting on and fixing you'd have a point and I'd agree with you but this is no different from point shaving, prop-bet manipulation, or match throwing in professional physical sports.
Not to mention the fact that Life most likely signed a contract stating he would play to the best of his ability in any match he plays as a member of his esports team.
I'm tired of all that. completely off topic stuffs + Show Spoiler +
Starcraft lost many technical aspects, all that things that coordinate and make things look like clockworks ( not sure about this word ) , that created poesy, few days ago I watched Flash playing Bhroodwar, as I'm very new to BW I felt something very strong for the game when i saw 1 then 2 then 3 dragoons and 1 then 2 vcs to repair the bunker wich is just enough to heal the bunker being a totally standard path of the builds in lost temple That kind of your science you can bring with you to the game and makes you feel improving sometimes when a specific move you can confirm it's worth you do every game. I know it's because Starcraft II is young, but the HotS-LotV offseason was a hurricane, and this just dont stop, and I'm not sure I'll be patient enough to wait the game find some harmony back again
I'm specifically affected by the Moonglade and Life losses, I still like the style of zergs from jin air and skt t1, maybe that's why I'm still there reading stuffs. Starcraft lost his stars.
That topic is nearly pointless since page 5 and is just people from two sides fighting when it's just education variation that make you choose your side, and talking about that all over again won't do or learn anything to anybody So I came post useless stuff too, because I feel sad about my favorite game dying
On April 24 2016 12:41 Dabble wrote: I know Kespa has a zero-tolerance policy towards matchfixing because of how prevalent an issue it was in the past, but I feel like in this case a fine and a suspension would be enough. The games Life threw, in matches he went on to win anyways as many have noted, in my mind falls more along the lines of poor sportsmanship than cheating. Losing one of the best players in the world will cost them more in the long run than if they were to allow him to continue playing.
If a player wanted to cheat gamblers out of money, which also seems like a legitimate concern on some level (even though sports gambling is illegal in Korea), they can do that without receiving payment and would then receive no punishment. Infact, I'm convinced Korean pros do this all the time, doing illogical build orders and building units or buildings at weird timings just to **** with gamblers, without making any money off of it. But this is pure speculation, and has little to do with Life.
I don't even... what?
So, it's okay if let's say Leicester City intentionally loses in Premier League to get a huge pay day, but ultimately they win the league so it's okay...
Or, it's okay if Golden State loses 3 games to Houston on purpose to win gambling money... but it's okay if they win the series...
Has to be the WORST logical stance on this whole topic.
On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes.
And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes.
And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
Yes, they aren't doing jail so that should be good enough really. Fine, investigation and life-time ban from Starcraft should be sufficient.
However I don't feel any pity for those who go to jail. If you think you're somehow above others and willingly cheat the system, then you deserve to what you get. Prison sucks, but so does getting your home broken into and having your life in the hand's of some unknown goon.
One of them can be avoided by respecting the law, the other cannot.
On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes.
And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy).
Would it be all right to stay on topic instead of going into pointless debates which are full of subjective arguments and scary thoughts such as "the state full controls the economy" ?
Match-fixers did not face jail-time, nor is anyone arguing that they should; shouldn't that be enough for you?
On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes.
And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy).
So your plan for discouraging fraud and other financial crimes is to warn people that they may not get to keep the money?
On April 25 2016 17:16 Incognoto wrote: Would it be all right to stay on topic instead of going into pointless debates which are full of subjective arguments and scary thoughts such as "the state full controls the economy" ?
Match-fixers did not face jail-time, nor is anyone arguing that they should; shouldn't that be enough for you?
This is simply not true. There are plenty of people in both threads arguing that the punishment should be harsher and expressing dissatisfaction over the given and/or expected suspended sentences and fines. You are, again, trying to push your view by trying to control what is being said and what isn't and I, still, do not considered that acceptable.
On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes.
And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy).
So your plan for discouraging fraud and other financial crimes is to warn people that they may not get to keep the money?
Pretty much yes. The main deterrent against financial crimes should always be the efficiency in uncovering them. On top of that, I am in favor of imposing additional financial penalties, such as confiscation of property, fines (enforced by pre-emptive confiscation of income, if necessary) or even restriction of economic freedoms, such as the convict being enable to legally conduct business in the area where he committed the fraud etc. But putting people in jail for stealing money is just the prefect symptom of our society having really twisted values.
On April 25 2016 17:16 Incognoto wrote: Would it be all right to stay on topic instead of going into pointless debates which are full of subjective arguments and scary thoughts such as "the state full controls the economy" ?
Match-fixers did not face jail-time, nor is anyone arguing that they should; shouldn't that be enough for you?
This is simply not true. There are plenty of people in both threads arguing that the punishment should be harsher and expressing dissatisfaction over the given and/or expected suspended sentences and fines. You are, again, trying to push your view by trying to control what is being said and what isn't and I, still, do not considered that acceptable.
On April 22 2016 17:34 opisska wrote: The main difference between property and violent crimes is that property crimes are usually easily undone. I am really against putting people in jail for just theft or fraud and I am not gonna change it just because it is done so in most parts of the world. Our society does incredibly stupid things 24/7, so "how things are" is no useful guideline for how they should be. Jail is much bigger punishment than most people see it - it's effectively taking away lifetime from you, the only thing you can't buy back or get more of. I for one would be completely devastated by a year in jail and I am not sure that I would be ever able to recover from it. I don't feel like this is what we want to do to people unless it is absolutely necessary.
Well, I think property crimes generally have pretty long sentences because of the fear factor. When doing a financial crime, you generally rationalize it a bit more, and weigh it on the greed compared to the likeliness you get caught and the punishment will get, so it's not done in the heat of the moment. Having rough sentences can probably thus reduce the amount of those crimes.
And none of the match fixers so far have got actual jail time other than the initial arrest and investigation (which seems to be quite long in Korea), right?
And I just plainly do not consider reducing the amount of property crimes (in particular non-violent, so I am not talking about breaking into someone's house with a gun) worth putting people in jail. After all, my primary point still stands: it's just money, it can be given back. Any property crime can be completely undone (at least by the state, who has usually full control of economy).
So your plan for discouraging fraud and other financial crimes is to warn people that they may not get to keep the money?
Pretty much yes. The main deterrent against financial crimes should always be the efficiency in uncovering them. On top of that, I am in favor of imposing additional financial penalties, such as confiscation of property, fines (enforced by pre-emptive confiscation of income, if necessary) or even restriction of economic freedoms, such as the convict being enable to legally conduct business in the area where he committed the fraud etc. But putting people in jail for stealing money is just the prefect symptom of our society having really twisted values.
I would agree here, tbh. I always thought it's weird that someone who stole money ended up in prison. Prison is an insanely expensive punishment for the state and should - in my opinion - only be used for people that might be a threat to some people or the entire society. What else should be the reason to lock someone away at these high costs?
Well they just need to look at matches that were a lot of money putted in when gambled and they can find match fixer easily. Players need to think, not just act with the eyes of money. So if they gave player 70k$ they will at least want to triple the amount. Gambling houses probably reported this to laws in the first place. haha
On April 26 2016 06:03 TizeNO wrote: Well they just need to look at matches that were a lot of money in when gambled and they can find match fixer easily. Players need to think, not just act throw the eyes of money. haha
A lot of the money is gambled on underground betting rings. So it's not trivial to find out which games have action on them.
Sometimes they make it to the bigger bookies, for example last summer (or was it two summers ago?) there was a string of cancelled bets on Pinnacle, the largest online esports bookie due to unusual transactions. But I don't know that any of the games Life / Byong threw raised any flags on Pinnacle.
On April 26 2016 06:03 TizeNO wrote: Well they just need to look at matches that were a lot of money in when gambled and they can find match fixer easily. Players need to think, not just act throw the eyes of money. haha
A lot of the money is gambled on underground betting rings. So it's not trivial to find out which games have action on them.
Sometimes they make it to the bigger bookies, for example last summer (or was it two summers ago?) there was a string of cancelled bets on Pinnacle, the largest online esports bookie due to unusual transactions. But I don't know that any of the games Life / Byong threw raised any flags on Pinnacle.
What are you saying is true, but why would someone even bet with his money on some places that you know are nest of corruption. Only big player win there for obvious reasons. lol
On April 26 2016 06:03 TizeNO wrote: Well they just need to look at matches that were a lot of money in when gambled and they can find match fixer easily. Players need to think, not just act throw the eyes of money. haha
A lot of the money is gambled on underground betting rings. So it's not trivial to find out which games have action on them.
Sometimes they make it to the bigger bookies, for example last summer (or was it two summers ago?) there was a string of cancelled bets on Pinnacle, the largest online esports bookie due to unusual transactions. But I don't know that any of the games Life / Byong threw raised any flags on Pinnacle.
What are you saying is true, but why would someone even bet with his money on some places that you know are nest of corruption. Only big player win there for obvious reasons. lol
Betting money is an irrational choice for most people. Gambling is an addiction.
On April 26 2016 07:42 Ingvar wrote: Betting money is an irrational choice for most people. Gambling is an addiction.
We tend to explain our every move with reason, while our whole life is a sequence of irrational choices, so i'd hold myself back from making such blunt statements.
I saw someone in the public transport today and thought it was Life for a second.... Ofcourse it was just a random guy, who'm after a closer look, didn't even look like Life.. My head is messed up due to this stuff
EPT
I hope it's not someone new...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/idT1fs0.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WepDqrz.jpg)
) that seemed pretty straightforward. Whatever, there is really nothing much to accomplish here, they are gonna get banned for life no matter what discussion we have here and the people who are set on hating any matchfixer with a burning passion won't change their views. I am writing this stuff on the premise that there may be people coming here who don't have a solidified pseudo-moral opinion yet for them to see that other viewpoints do exist. I probably don't do a very good job of that, because I am just not a very good debater, or even an acceptable human being to many, but again, whatever. Peace 
) nor the universe.
