On April 14 2016 11:02 ShambhalaWar wrote: How about KESPA instead of suing people over match-fixing they already been punished for, they start suing organizations for robbing the players, without whom, this scene would not exist...
Probably because it's a hell of a lot easier to do the former, as there is only 1 guilty party, inside their own country, to protect the direct interests of their org.
Plus who would they sue in this case? WSVG? The government of Maldives? G2A? Much more difficult/expensive.
It's pretty silly to place the burden on KESPA to police the whole world of esports.
It makes much more sense to me to protect the players that actually allow an organization like KESPA to exist than to file a civil suit against people that have already been punished criminally (I get they think it wasn't enough).
Rather this kind of shit goes unpunished, where a player gets completely fucked. Hyunn is another person that comes to mind. Things like this happening to players is what leads them to match-fixing, because when you want to do esports as a "career" you actually need to have a livable income.
Here is someone that plays at the top of the level of the tourney and they get nothing for winning. What's the incentive for competing in a system that doesn't honor its own rules.
The whole scene is a joke when stuff like this happens.
Lets piss away some more money on the match-fixing drama, but when it comes to players getting paid I would actually wager money that this is the last any of us hear about it.
I imagine you would sue the people or organization that organized the event. I would make the argument that suing match fixers doesn't have much to do with protecting your organization in comparison to you players getting 10k stolen from them for winning a tourney.
You lose your players you lose your scene. Take your lawyer money and give some to the players would be better spent. I remember Hyunn and I believe all the viewers had to come up with charity donations for him, Kespa didn't do shit. So really what good is Kespa for the scene?
What does this situation have to do with KeSPA? Or Hyuns?
Well I think It is save to assume that there never was a budget to pay out all the prize money. The organizers paid the necessary stuff, took money from all the sponsors, and now go duck and hide.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
Theoretically a union would allow for easier and cheaper sueing of the guys holding money, but I doubt pro players would be able to establish a real, legit union.
I always wondered how G2A can sponsor all those players/casters/tournaments, theirs is a really shady business. I mean, it's bonderline legal... what's the appeal?
On April 14 2016 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I always wondered how G2A can sponsor all those players/casters/tournaments, theirs is a really shady business. I mean, it's bonderline legal... what's the appeal?
Well, if they sponsor a lot of stuff, they look less shady.
On April 14 2016 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I always wondered how G2A can sponsor all those players/casters/tournaments, theirs is a really shady business. I mean, it's bonderline legal... what's the appeal?
what do they do ? I see them everywhere, never bothered to check their website
On April 14 2016 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I always wondered how G2A can sponsor all those players/casters/tournaments, theirs is a really shady business. I mean, it's bonderline legal... what's the appeal?
what do they do ? I see them everywhere, never bothered to check their website
Providing a platform in order to buy/sell keys for video games.
On April 14 2016 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I always wondered how G2A can sponsor all those players/casters/tournaments, theirs is a really shady business. I mean, it's bonderline legal... what's the appeal?
what do they do ? I see them everywhere, never bothered to check their website
Providing a platform in order to buy/sell keys for video games.
And those keys a lot if the time came from shady place, I know they were buying humble bundlle key for the smallest price possible and then selling them back at near full price, it can also be stolen key.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
Theoretically a union would allow for easier and cheaper sueing of the guys holding money, but I doubt pro players would be able to establish a real, legit union.
When there is a players union you have one piece of a functioning system. Until then...
On April 14 2016 05:48 JonSnow wrote: They did pay for the flights to Maldives + a week at the hotel resort. It was a really fun trip, and the water was nice. But yeah, if they paid me that'd also be pretty cool.
No not pretty cool.... Actually it would just be the+ Show Spoiler +
FUCKING
right thing to do when you host a tournament with prize money, you pay the people, the most normal thing in the world if you ask me!
But since it was hosted by G2A and they lost their sponsorship with RIOT + Show Spoiler +
On April 14 2016 20:28 HsDLTitich wrote: I always wondered how G2A can sponsor all those players/casters/tournaments, theirs is a really shady business. I mean, it's bonderline legal... what's the appeal?
what do they do ? I see them everywhere, never bothered to check their website
Providing a platform in order to buy/sell keys for video games.
And those keys a lot if the time came from shady place, I know they were buying humble bundlle key for the smallest price possible and then selling them back at near full price, it can also be stolen key.
They also buy keys meant for developing countries market and resell them for the first world countries market, that's how they can afford to sell them for those low prices. It's unethical as fuck, but no one cares.
"Unethical" to resell a line of characters, which grant you access to a service, wich allows you to play a game you can NEVER sell yourself, once you activated the key.
hrmm. I don't buy Games at G2A, because new games are based on HYPUUUUUUUUUU and not quality. But if I wanted to have a new BETAFIELD I'd probably go there.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
That's what I was thinking. Even though most organizers probably operate on sponsors promising to pay money AFTER the event, rather than before. But yeah, Blizzard should be doing this, but frankly, I don't think they care. They should, but they dont.
It needs to be seperate. A union decides about salary, player-, sponsorcontract and a lot more things. It has to handle in best interest of its members. Blizzard cant do that because they own the game hence there is a conflict in interest.
There are points against and for blizzard, but this is the most important one and it speaks for a seperate player union.
On April 14 2016 11:02 ShambhalaWar wrote: How about KESPA instead of suing people over match-fixing they already been punished for, they start suing organizations for robbing the players, without whom, this scene would not exist...
Probably because it's a hell of a lot easier to do the former, as there is only 1 guilty party, inside their own country, to protect the direct interests of their org.
Plus who would they sue in this case? WSVG? The government of Maldives? G2A? Much more difficult/expensive.
It's pretty silly to place the burden on KESPA to police the whole world of esports.
It makes much more sense to me to protect the players that actually allow an organization like KESPA to exist than to file a civil suit against people that have already been punished criminally (I get they think it wasn't enough).
Rather this kind of shit goes unpunished, where a player gets completely fucked. Hyunn is another person that comes to mind. Things like this happening to players is what leads them to match-fixing, because when you want to do esports as a "career" you actually need to have a livable income.
Here is someone that plays at the top of the level of the tourney and they get nothing for winning. What's the incentive for competing in a system that doesn't honor its own rules.
The whole scene is a joke when stuff like this happens.
Lets piss away some more money on the match-fixing drama, but when it comes to players getting paid I would actually wager money that this is the last any of us hear about it.
I imagine you would sue the people or organization that organized the event. I would make the argument that suing match fixers doesn't have much to do with protecting your organization in comparison to you players getting 10k stolen from them for winning a tourney.
You lose your players you lose your scene. Take your lawyer money and give some to the players would be better spent. I remember Hyunn and I believe all the viewers had to come up with charity donations for him, Kespa didn't do shit. So really what good is Kespa for the scene?
So please tell me, which kespa players are not being payed in this scenario?
None because kespa didn't send any players for this exact reason. If the players gets used and fucked over kespa can't do shit about it. Thats why they make sure that their players only go to legit tournaments. Therefore your whole arguement is void.
Kespa got Brains(unlike you), they avoided this whole problem before it even happened =D
My point is that esports associations (KESPA) feel they need to protect the sport by suing match-fixers that have already been punished, but that really doesn't do anything to protect the sport.
It's just more backward decision making in a declining scene.
Earlier I referenced Hyunn, who at the time lived in Korea and was unpaid for winning a large event (can't remember the name). He was out a large amount of money and considered quitting the esports scene because of it.
He was a TSL player going to quantic, so he was at least a KESPA player before that right? Does playing for a different team remove players living in Korea from KESPA? Was he not a KESPA player at that point?
I don't recall KESPA lifting a finger for him.
I believe other players and fans started a donation fund for him to help pay the losses he incurred.
I don't know if any KESPA players are in this event, but organizations like KESPA would better spend their efforts trying to prevent these things and promising a salary to players instead of trying to protect the gambling side of esports.
Especially when the players that make the sport (players are the heart of a sport) don't get paid what they are promised for winning.
Even if KESPA didn't send anyone to the event, seeing as how their players have been at global tournaments they could be speaking out against things like this educating people on how to choose well run events to attend.
Bottom line, is that I don't see organizations like KESPA doing much for the players, seems like they are more interested in ratings. You probably throw blizzard in their as well, at this point they are definitely acting as more than a game designer in the field of esports.
I doubt KESPA didn't send anyone because they thought it wouldn't be legit, they rarely send anyone anywhere... and expect even less of that in the new WCS system (which I'm sure KESPA help blizzard design to forward their own interests).
On April 14 2016 11:02 ShambhalaWar wrote: How about KESPA instead of suing people over match-fixing they already been punished for, they start suing organizations for robbing the players, without whom, this scene would not exist...
Probably because it's a hell of a lot easier to do the former, as there is only 1 guilty party, inside their own country, to protect the direct interests of their org.
Plus who would they sue in this case? WSVG? The government of Maldives? G2A? Much more difficult/expensive.
It's pretty silly to place the burden on KESPA to police the whole world of esports.
It makes much more sense to me to protect the players that actually allow an organization like KESPA to exist than to file a civil suit against people that have already been punished criminally (I get they think it wasn't enough).
Rather this kind of shit goes unpunished, where a player gets completely fucked. Hyunn is another person that comes to mind. Things like this happening to players is what leads them to match-fixing, because when you want to do esports as a "career" you actually need to have a livable income.
Here is someone that plays at the top of the level of the tourney and they get nothing for winning. What's the incentive for competing in a system that doesn't honor its own rules.
The whole scene is a joke when stuff like this happens.
Lets piss away some more money on the match-fixing drama, but when it comes to players getting paid I would actually wager money that this is the last any of us hear about it.
I imagine you would sue the people or organization that organized the event. I would make the argument that suing match fixers doesn't have much to do with protecting your organization in comparison to you players getting 10k stolen from them for winning a tourney.
You lose your players you lose your scene. Take your lawyer money and give some to the players would be better spent. I remember Hyunn and I believe all the viewers had to come up with charity donations for him, Kespa didn't do shit. So really what good is Kespa for the scene?
Kespa got Brains(unlike you)
Real classy dude.
Do you realize how silly it sounds that they are suing a couple of players after a lifetime ban and criminal sentence. It's just drama at this point.
Sc2 is a sinking ship in the esports industry, that's no secret to anyone. It's not because sc2 an rts, it's because the people at the top have been making terrible decisions about the game for the last 2-3 years (KESPA included).
And players turn to options like match-fixing because they can't make a living wage in the sport. Apparently even if you are Hyun (one of the best players) you still can't make it, so what chance to most players have.
I like what people have said about a union, but it's sad its something players need to organize. Associations like KESPA should protect their players and I don't hear much about that. Maybe it is happening, but I just see the match-fixing headlines.
Nobody but players and fans will step in talk about a mess like this... Blizzard, KESPA, and the like organizations will just let it fall by the way side.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
Theoretically a union would allow for easier and cheaper sueing of the guys holding money, but I doubt pro players would be able to establish a real, legit union.
Yeah plus I imagine the cost to set up a legit union and sue a company would be quite steep.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
Theoretically a union would allow for easier and cheaper sueing of the guys holding money, but I doubt pro players would be able to establish a real, legit union.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
Theoretically a union would allow for easier and cheaper sueing of the guys holding money, but I doubt pro players would be able to establish a real, legit union.
Yeah plus I imagine the cost to set up a legit union and sue a company would be quite steep.
With attitudes like this, setting up a union isn't hard, it is impossible. I was a union steward for many years.
Asking all players to pay small dues every month (5-20 bucks?) and using that to keep an attorney that will go to bat for them when necessary isn't difficult at all. Neither is having that attorney negotiate things and draft contracts for them with tournament organizers and Blizzard.
Setting up a union is easy. It doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be, a big sprawling organization (Kespa is a joke) and there should be maybe two people on the payroll, one being the attorney. The most difficult part is getting players to realize it is necessary, buy into it, and stand united to go on strike if necessary.
The two big questions then are, do SC2 players have the will power to form a union? If so, can the tournament organizers be as successful in drawing spectators by bringing in non-union players than those that agree to a union?
Chances are the tournament organizers can't be as successful, so it is up to the players.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
Theoretically a union would allow for easier and cheaper sueing of the guys holding money, but I doubt pro players would be able to establish a real, legit union.
On April 14 2016 05:28 phodacbiet wrote: Well.. I hope they get their prize money but I doubt it. SC2 players REALLY need to set up a union to force organizers to be more responsible tbh... maybe Team Liquid should organize a player Union?
Would a union force sponsors to hold money in escrow? Seems like a job Blizzard should be doing.
Theoretically a union would allow for easier and cheaper sueing of the guys holding money, but I doubt pro players would be able to establish a real, legit union.
Yeah plus I imagine the cost to set up a legit union and sue a company would be quite steep.
With attitudes like this, setting up a union isn't hard, it is impossible. I was a union steward for many years.
Asking all players to pay small dues every month (5-20 bucks?) and using that to keep an attorney that will go to bat for them when necessary isn't difficult at all. Neither is having that attorney negotiate things and draft contracts for them with tournament organizers and Blizzard.
Setting up a union is easy. It doesn't need to be, and shouldn't be, a big sprawling organization (Kespa is a joke) and there should be maybe two people on the payroll, one being the attorney. The most difficult part is getting players to realize it is necessary, buy into it, and stand united to go on strike if necessary.
The two big questions then are, do SC2 players have the will power to form a union? If so, can the tournament organizers be as successful in drawing spectators by bringing in non-union players than those that agree to a union?
Chances are the tournament organizers can't be as successful, so it is up to the players.
I wasn't referring to the difficulty of setting up a union per se, I was referring to the fact that I'm not sure players have the will to set up a union - else I don't see why they didn't do it already. But yes, we all agree that it would be beneficial to the players - and not that costly.
EPT
