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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 12 2016 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:31 Ej_ wrote:On April 12 2016 05:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game. It could, but I don't think Blizzard wants colossi to take a particularly large role in the match-up. Nerfing lurkers/ravagers alongside immortals probably does more for the match-up. Of course the problem there is, TvZ is pretty much 50/50. I think this problem is best handled by fixing the problem, which is unfortunately a systematic problem with the Protoss race versus Zerg, which I've been arguing for months while everyone said it was just maps that were making PvZ bad. TvZ isn't 50/50 at pro level. Try 60/40. In what direction? If Zerg is at 40% than a Lurker/Ravager nerf is absolutely not an option. And do you have any stats to show me? Here is what I looked at: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
Zerg has being doing really poorly in Code S against Terran. However Proleague and SSL have been even.
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On April 12 2016 05:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:34 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:31 Ej_ wrote:On April 12 2016 05:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game. It could, but I don't think Blizzard wants colossi to take a particularly large role in the match-up. Nerfing lurkers/ravagers alongside immortals probably does more for the match-up. Of course the problem there is, TvZ is pretty much 50/50. I think this problem is best handled by fixing the problem, which is unfortunately a systematic problem with the Protoss race versus Zerg, which I've been arguing for months while everyone said it was just maps that were making PvZ bad. TvZ isn't 50/50 at pro level. Try 60/40. In what direction? If Zerg is at 40% than a Lurker/Ravager nerf is absolutely not an option. And do you have any stats to show me? Here is what I looked at: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ Zerg has being doing really poorly in Code S against Terran. However Proleague and SSL have been even.
They've been doing fine or better in every other tournament without that map pool. At this point I don't think you can chalk that up to coincidence.
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The amount is statistics from those three league is usually so low you can't draw any meaningful conclusions.
Imagine if you and I were the best T and Z players respectively in the world, and are equally skilled. If we play 1800 games, we'll have data on which race is better, ect... let's say the game is balanced so we split those 1800 games.
If the next week we play 5 more games, but I'm just not playing as well so I lose them all, no one is going to say the game balance has suddenly changed based on the results of 5 out of 1805 games.
However, if we play 18 games at first and split them, then play 5 more and I lose them all, people might jump all over that and make all kinds of claims, because the winrate would swing dramatically.
That is the problem with looking at such low sample sizes. One series can wildly swing win-rates, and variables (such as a player having an off day) are much more likely to affect the data.
The Aligulac Balance report is a really great tool because it combines data from lots of high level games. Also, the performance difference chart is very powerful, and shows the difference in player performance after patches. At the moment we see that Terran is -1, which is basically even, while Protoss is a -22 and Zerg +19. That speaks to the near 50/50 winrate in TvZ and TvP, but the problematic winrate in ZvP.
Zerg players are outperforming themselves and Protoss players are underperforming compared to Aligulac predictions.
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
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Does this make Dark's Starleague win even more prestigious? (considering win rate/path to win)
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Blizzard, stop asking Nerchio and Scarlett for feedback pls -.-
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On April 12 2016 05:53 BretZ wrote:
Does this make Dark's Starleague win even more prestigious? (considering win rate/path to win)
Well, the main event win rate in SSL for Zerg versus Protoss was 63% (Zerg favored). But the sample size was tiny, and Dark was the reason that win rate was so good...
So draw whatever conclusion you like. There is too little data to have any significance.
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That the non-SSL Korean Leagues has chosen other maps, means that they think they can balance the game better than the Blizzard balance team. Blizzards balance team should focus on balancing around the ladder maps, which I cannot possibly imagine being Protoss favoured in PvZ.
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I'd like them to try a slight lurker nerf (-1 range would probably make the most sense) and an immortal nerf to make it less resilient vs hydras/lings. But I'm comfortable with them doing nothing for the time being and seeing if Dark's baneling centric style can give birth to something interesting too -probably because I'm P hahahahaha  . That style is actually pretty solid, allows for good harass in the mineral lines and transitions smoothly to broods.
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Banelings are so much fun to watch.
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On April 12 2016 06:01 BronzeKnee wrote:
Banelings are so much fun to watch.
they are and I think letting that style develop would be a smart move. If P players start to adapt and go for quick storms instead of mass immortals Z players can then switch back to lurker play again, might get interesting and allow for more variations.
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On April 12 2016 05:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:53 BretZ wrote:
Does this make Dark's Starleague win even more prestigious? (considering win rate/path to win) Well, the main event win rate in SSL for Zerg versus Protoss was 63% (Zerg favored). But the sample size was tiny, and Dark was the reason that win rate was so good... So draw whatever conclusion you like. There is too little data to have any significance.
Sure, but at the same time you probably should balance the game around the highest lvl of play possible by humans, i think?
The difference between koreans and other "high lvl" gameplay (which is part of the aligulac stats) is simply too high to not consider.
It's really a question of philosophy at this point.
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Wait 6 months to take any action on a stupidly Zerg favored PvZ.
A couple of Protoss players figure out how to win the matchup a bit... Talk about P nerfs immediately. Cool.
Blizzard hates Protoss confirmed. And you know what? It's probably because of people writing stupid whiny threats. Or some delusion that people actually like Nerchio (I keep hearing this a lot, in casts and stuff... who actually likes Nerchio?)
I think there's no other explanation. It makes NO sense how fucking quickly they've even hinted at a Protoss nerf when for so long win rates have been low 40s for P and they've done nothing. Does this indicate that they want to move in the direction of Dota and immediately patch every winning strategy out of the game as it comes along?
Meta should evolve out of patches, not patches out of meta. Sure if something is clearly broken over a statistically significant number of games, fix it... but this feels like "oh wait, Protoss came up with a new build that beats Zerg." We've gone through this many times before. Zergs have found answers before (mass gateways, soul train, etc.).
Also, pretty much everything that they've done or want to do makes life for the sub GM Protoss INFINITELY harder and less fun. I really don't get how you can decide to just make life hell for 1/3 of your player base.
If you care about Protoss, tweet at Blizzard using #Protosslivesmatter
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I'm not so sure lategame Protoss is that bad against Zerg. Dark showed it was quite doable against Stats to handle lategame Toss. Remax is viable and easier to achieve than ever. If initial Zerg army could handle endstage Toss, then there would never be a contest. Endgame Toss also suffers all the Broodlord weaknesses anchored by the terribly slow HTs.
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Thinking about it, I think blizzard is mainly trying to react to the daily whine-thread on reddit with this. They haven't talked about anything specifically how to nerf protoss or anything, it's just them telling reddit that Protoss isn't weak by supporting the other side for a moment in time, after heating up the discussion for a long time the other way around by making it sound as if Protoss needed buffs.
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On April 12 2016 06:10 DinoMight wrote:
Wait 6 months to take any action on a stupidly Zerg favored PvZ.
A couple of Protoss players figure out how to win the matchup a bit... Talk about P nerfs immediately. Cool.
Blizzard hates Protoss confirmed. And you know what? It's probably because of people writing stupid whiny threats. Or some delusion that people actually like Nerchio (I keep hearing this a lot, in casts and stuff... who actually likes Nerchio?)
I think there's no other explanation. It makes NO sense how fucking quickly they've even hinted at a Protoss nerf when for so long win rates have been low 40s for P and they've done nothing.
Also, pretty much everything that they've done or want to do makes life for the sub GM Protoss INFINITELY harder and less fun. I really don't get how you can decide to just make life hell for 1/3 of your player base.
If you care about Protoss, tweet at Blizzard using #Protosslivesmatter
10+ immortals are really incredibly hard to deal with at any level and I understand why they would talk about it. Though I repeat that I hope they give the players some time because I'm pretty sure Z can figure out solutions before an immortal nerf is needed.
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On April 12 2016 06:10 DinoMight wrote:
Wait 6 months to take any action on a stupidly Zerg favored PvZ.
A couple of Protoss players figure out how to win the matchup a bit... Talk about P nerfs immediately. Cool.
Blizzard hates Protoss confirmed. And you know what? It's probably because of people writing stupid whiny threats. Or some delusion that people actually like Nerchio (I keep hearing this a lot, in casts and stuff... who actually likes Nerchio?)
I think there's no other explanation. It makes NO sense how fucking quickly they've even hinted at a Protoss nerf when for so long win rates have been low 40s for P and they've done nothing.
Also, pretty much everything that they've done or want to do makes life for the sub GM Protoss INFINITELY harder and less fun. I really don't get how you can decide to just make life hell for 1/3 of your player base.
If you care about Protoss, tweet at Blizzard using #Protosslivesmatter
I like how you came into this topic and started talking about liking me or not like if I was the only reason they do not nerf zerg. People that do not understand this game should not talk about game balance so you can be mad all you want but the truth is that without early game advantage zerg doesn't exist in mid and late game at all.
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On April 12 2016 06:15 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:10 DinoMight wrote:
Wait 6 months to take any action on a stupidly Zerg favored PvZ.
A couple of Protoss players figure out how to win the matchup a bit... Talk about P nerfs immediately. Cool.
Blizzard hates Protoss confirmed. And you know what? It's probably because of people writing stupid whiny threats. Or some delusion that people actually like Nerchio (I keep hearing this a lot, in casts and stuff... who actually likes Nerchio?)
I think there's no other explanation. It makes NO sense how fucking quickly they've even hinted at a Protoss nerf when for so long win rates have been low 40s for P and they've done nothing.
Also, pretty much everything that they've done or want to do makes life for the sub GM Protoss INFINITELY harder and less fun. I really don't get how you can decide to just make life hell for 1/3 of your player base.
If you care about Protoss, tweet at Blizzard using #Protosslivesmatter
I like how you came into this topic and started talking about liking me or not like if I was the only reason they do not nerf zerg. People that do not understand this game should not talk about game balance so you can be mad all you want but the truth is that without early game advantage zerg doesn't exist in mid and late game at all.
if you were to keep it realistic, what kind of move would you like Blizzard to make to improve things in the mu ? For instance, when you say "nerf immortal", what kind of nerf would you want to be tested ?
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On April 12 2016 06:14 Big J wrote:
Thinking about it, I think blizzard is mainly trying to react to the daily whine-thread on reddit with this. They haven't talked about anything specifically how to nerf protoss or anything, it's just them telling reddit that Protoss isn't weak by supporting the other side for a moment in time, after heating up the discussion for a long time the other way around by making it sound as if Protoss needed buffs.
What i really like about all of this is that we're getting map updates and they don't patch anything else. Which right now is pretty much the best move imo.
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On April 12 2016 06:15 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:10 DinoMight wrote:
Wait 6 months to take any action on a stupidly Zerg favored PvZ.
A couple of Protoss players figure out how to win the matchup a bit... Talk about P nerfs immediately. Cool.
Blizzard hates Protoss confirmed. And you know what? It's probably because of people writing stupid whiny threats. Or some delusion that people actually like Nerchio (I keep hearing this a lot, in casts and stuff... who actually likes Nerchio?)
I think there's no other explanation. It makes NO sense how fucking quickly they've even hinted at a Protoss nerf when for so long win rates have been low 40s for P and they've done nothing.
Also, pretty much everything that they've done or want to do makes life for the sub GM Protoss INFINITELY harder and less fun. I really don't get how you can decide to just make life hell for 1/3 of your player base.
If you care about Protoss, tweet at Blizzard using #Protosslivesmatter
I like how you came into this topic and started talking about liking me or not like if I was the only reason they do not nerf zerg. People that do not understand this game should not talk about game balance so you can be mad all you want but the truth is that without early game advantage zerg doesn't exist in mid and late game at all.
Tho to be honest I keep on seeing you on this thread and no other progamer. So far no one can deny or accept what he said.
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On April 12 2016 06:18 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:15 Nerchio wrote:On April 12 2016 06:10 DinoMight wrote:
Wait 6 months to take any action on a stupidly Zerg favored PvZ.
A couple of Protoss players figure out how to win the matchup a bit... Talk about P nerfs immediately. Cool.
Blizzard hates Protoss confirmed. And you know what? It's probably because of people writing stupid whiny threats. Or some delusion that people actually like Nerchio (I keep hearing this a lot, in casts and stuff... who actually likes Nerchio?)
I think there's no other explanation. It makes NO sense how fucking quickly they've even hinted at a Protoss nerf when for so long win rates have been low 40s for P and they've done nothing.
Also, pretty much everything that they've done or want to do makes life for the sub GM Protoss INFINITELY harder and less fun. I really don't get how you can decide to just make life hell for 1/3 of your player base.
If you care about Protoss, tweet at Blizzard using #Protosslivesmatter
I like how you came into this topic and started talking about liking me or not like if I was the only reason they do not nerf zerg. People that do not understand this game should not talk about game balance so you can be mad all you want but the truth is that without early game advantage zerg doesn't exist in mid and late game at all. if you were to keep it realistic, what kind of move would you like Blizzard to make to improve things in the mu ? For instance, when you say "nerf immortal", what kind of nerf would you want to be tested ?
I think we are not going to achieve a lot of meta changes with small updates unfortunately. Maybe going back to pre-lotv Immortal or trying shield less cooldown/less shield? But I also understand that if we nerf Immortal we need to nerf Ravagers and Lurkers as well.
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EPT
