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On April 12 2016 05:01 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well. Welcome to Blizzard, and balancing. PvT was literally, 50/50 when they nerfed Khaydarin Amulet and gave Protoss no compensatory buffs.
They gave Zealot Charge the guarantee to hit their target even if not actually reaching it, which was a pretty huge compensation (but obviously not as massive as removing the warp-in storms). Before that kiting bio especially with concussive shells would dodge most zealot attacks.
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On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily.
Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff.
On April 12 2016 05:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well. Welcome to Blizzard, and balancing. PvT was literally, 50/50 when they nerfed Khaydarin Amulet and gave Protoss no compensatory buffs. They gave Zealot Charge the guarantee to hit their target even if not actually reaching it, which was a pretty huge compensation (but obviously not as massive as removing the warp-in storms). Before that kiting bio especially with concussive shells would dodge most zealot attacks.
Are you actually stating that Blizzard thought the Charge bug fix/buff was actually equivalent to the nerf of removing KA?
Because we all know what happened, the Protoss winrate tanked.
So either Blizzard is stupid for thinking that bug fix would balance it out, or Blizzard is stupid because they gave no compensatory buff. It isn't hard to figure out how a scale works.
But Blizzard doesn't try to balance their game, they just make changes.
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On April 12 2016 04:57 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:55 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2016 04:53 Charoisaur wrote:On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game Nerf medivacs?? no nerf to ultras?? Yeah I disagree with him. I agree with nerfing air armies (broodlords included), but nerfing everything and buffing infestors? Sounds like a boring game then. Fuck infestors they are fine as it is, if Zerg needed a buff it should be elsewhere. Sounds like a boring game but then the game would not resolve around armies of death (lurkers / immortals/ liberators/ sky armies etc) and would result in the most exciting starcraft you've seen xD
no armies of death when P/T air armies get nerfed but Z air armies being kept untouched and infestors buffed...? I'm not so sure about that.
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On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff.
could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game.
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I think it is reasonable to postpone/cancel PvZ Zerg nerfs as it is likely that Protoss players may still improve their performance against a variety of Zerg allins, but Protoss would have to do even better than now to justify not changing anything at all I would say. Hopefully Protoss will, especially with the help from maps, be able to consistently fend off Zerg aggression to a point where it would be considered balanced. The new map changes seem to generally favor expanding/macro oriented play, and this will indeniably be an indirect Protoss buff versus Zerg.
Also I think what is being meant with non-korean Protosses sharing a similar sentiment with Kespa is not so much that Zerg has a very low chance per se, but probably that they agree with the increased tendency of handling of Zerg allins plus the strength Protoss has in later stages of the matchup. I would guess they still think it is difficult to play against some of the Zerg aggression.
I would lastly add, however, that if the case is that Zerg has trouble versus Protoss, I think nerfing the Immortal would be dangerous as it is such core, much needed unit in all matchups right now. So while the Zerg perspective would suggest that the Immortal is overperforming, which may/may not be true, I would confidently say that nerfing/changing the Immortal without doing a broad-spectrum of buffs/compensations to Protoss as a result of the massive impact it would have is going to cause some problems.
Instead I think the goal for fixing potential problems for Zerg against Protoss would be to look at the lategame. These have been ideas I have proposed and heard so far, and perhaps only one of them could help Zerg enough:
- Increase +massive damage on corrupters (largely only matters versus Carrier/Tempest)
- Split the immortal attack into 2, like marauder (it has 2 cannons aesthetically, mostly only affects their damage against ultralisk) 20+30 to 10+15 (could slightly buff Immortal as a compensation, perhaps 11+15)
- Increase abduct range (would help vs tempests, but may be too much in other matchups.)
- Redesign/nerf Tempest (my suggestion would be to increase movement speed and decrease range.)
I think the best move to prepare for potential imbalances favoring Protoss once Protoss either learns to defend Zerg aggression consistently or gets a helping hand is to look at the Zerg lategame strength like above to avoid nerfing a fundamental LotV Protoss unit like the Immortal.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game.
The damage nerf was massive - over 1.5x with +3 attack. They just cost a ton (in minerals, gas, robo+robosup build time, supply) for the amount that they can give to an army, even with +1 range over lurkers
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A Colossus buff is really the first step in my opinion of doing anything, but I don't think it will be enough.
Zerg has so many good options versus Protoss. I'd like to see the Warp in change reverted, that would help Protoss significantly, especially in those positional games where Terran and Zerg setup their Tank, Liberators and Lurkers.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game.
It could, but I don't think Blizzard wants colossi to take a particularly large role in the match-up. Nerfing lurkers/ravagers alongside immortals probably does more for the match-up.
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On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:05 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 05:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well. Welcome to Blizzard, and balancing. PvT was literally, 50/50 when they nerfed Khaydarin Amulet and gave Protoss no compensatory buffs. They gave Zealot Charge the guarantee to hit their target even if not actually reaching it, which was a pretty huge compensation (but obviously not as massive as removing the warp-in storms). Before that kiting bio especially with concussive shells would dodge most zealot attacks. Are you actually stating that Blizzard thought that bug fix/buff was actually equivalent to the nerf of removing KA? Because we all know what happened, the Protoss winrate tanked. So either Blizzard is stupid for thinking that bug fix would balance it out, or Blizzard is stupid because they gave no compensatory buff.
I'm just saying that you are wrong about blizzard giving "no compensatory buff". Whether it was sufficient or not is a different story, but the buff exists.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
I'd like to see the Warp in change reverted
Balance with stronger units & less emphasis on warp in is better than instawarp but needing weak units for 50/50 winrates IMO
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My point was about Blizzard and their balance scheme.
The bug fix that happened to buff Zealots did happen. But it did not recompense the Protoss race, by definition, since the win rate tanked. Anyway, that is an argument about semantics due to the multiple definitions of compensation. I should have used another word.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game.
They are at 9 range with thermal lance again. So either you reduce lurker range to 8 or you up colossus range to 10. And I'd rather not have the 2nd one happen.
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On April 12 2016 05:14 Cyro wrote:Balance with stronger units & less emphasis on warp in is better than instawarp but needing weak units for 50/50 winrates IMO
The change was intended to reduce the strength of Protoss all-ins. But Protoss players doing an all-in just build a Gateway near the pylon anyway or use a Warp Prism. It did little for that.
The bigger factors are that the sped up economy and changes to chronoboost really hurt Warp Gate timings anyway. Warp Gate takes longer to research in LOTV than WOL or HOTS, and your opponent is much more developed in LOTV when it finishes.
Where the change does hurt is for harrassment purposes. I used to send Probes out on the map to make Pylons so I could harass in the mid-late game. Harrass is significantly hampered by that change, which is key in those positional games. But now I just use a Warp Prism. Again Protoss is pigeonholed into using a few really strong units, and everyone is forced to play the same.
And God Forbid my Pylon barely doesn't touch the Nexus on my expansion, because then I won't be able to warp in defenders basically.
It was a silly change that didn't consider other circumstances and leads to confusion. And with Protoss below 50% in both matchups, it is a slight buff that cleans up the confusion of warp in times and streamlines the game.
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We're slowly gravitating towards one viable play style for Protoss. If every time Protoss finds a solution to something Blizzard nerfs it into the ground you're going to have a 2 race game very soon. Game has become dull as all fuck. Haven't played seriously in months.
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Lol
"From our perspective, early/mid game issues look as though they're not as problematic as before due to Protoss players learning to react better vs. different Zerg threats."
This is what I've been saying is going for happen in like forever, protoss defense too strong they will eventually learnt o defend and get ahead. Its sad that they did not foresee this coming -_- Should be obvious
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guys it a delayed post from the first april, its only a joke 
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On April 12 2016 05:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game. It could, but I don't think Blizzard wants colossi to take a particularly large role in the match-up. Nerfing lurkers/ravagers alongside immortals probably does more for the match-up.
Of course the problem there is, TvZ is pretty much 50/50.
I think this problem is best handled by fixing the problem, which is unfortunately a systematic problem with the Protoss race versus Zerg, which I've been arguing for months while everyone said it was just maps that were making PvZ bad.
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On April 12 2016 05:29 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game. It could, but I don't think Blizzard wants colossi to take a particularly large role in the match-up. Nerfing lurkers/ravagers alongside immortals probably does more for the match-up. Of course the problem there is, TvZ is pretty much 50/50. I think this problem is best handled by fixing the problem, which is unfortunately a systematic problem with the Protoss race versus Zerg, which I've been arguing for months while everyone said it was just maps that were making PvZ bad.
TvZ isn't 50/50 at pro level. Try 60/40.
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On April 12 2016 05:31 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 05:29 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:11 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 12 2016 05:07 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 12 2016 05:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 05:03 [PkF] Wire wrote:
Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. Bingo. Protoss is pigeoned-holed into a unit composition because we don't have choices anymore. Nothing deals with Lurkers but Immortals basically, and Blink Stalker/HT/Archon hasn't worked since WOL due to the Muta regeneration buff. could colossi with restored range (I mean colossi which would outrange lurkers) be a first move towards opening other compositions ? Since their damage nerf colossi are less susceptible to break the game. It could, but I don't think Blizzard wants colossi to take a particularly large role in the match-up. Nerfing lurkers/ravagers alongside immortals probably does more for the match-up. Of course the problem there is, TvZ is pretty much 50/50. I think this problem is best handled by fixing the problem, which is unfortunately a systematic problem with the Protoss race versus Zerg, which I've been arguing for months while everyone said it was just maps that were making PvZ bad. TvZ isn't 50/50 at pro level. Try 60/40.
In what direction? If Zerg is at 40% than a Lurker/Ravager nerf is absolutely not an option. And do you have any stats to show me?
Here is what I looked at: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
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On April 12 2016 05:24 Shuffleblade wrote:
Lol
"From our perspective, early/mid game issues look as though they're not as problematic as before due to Protoss players learning to react better vs. different Zerg threats."
This is what I've been saying is going for happen in like forever, protoss defense too strong they will eventually learnt o defend and get ahead. Its sad that they did not foresee this coming -_- Should be obvious
Predicting that people are getting better is always easy. Predicting that the defender is not going to die as often anymore is easy too.
The real question is always how much you have to invest into that and what strategical implications it has. At the moment I don't think Protoss is favored in the matchup, because even if they don't die as much to a specific timing, Zerg can often work with a big enough advantage to still compete with mid- and lategame armies of Protoss.
I don't really understand why KespA players would be arguing like DK implies, GSL/SSL/Proleague has felt like T>>Z and P>T in the last weeks with few very ZvP games. In which Zergs performed even slightly better than Protoss.
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EPT
