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On April 12 2016 14:08 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 13:35 RaFox17 wrote:On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote:On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote:
dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better  But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. Funny to talk about micro when toss immortal/archon/charge attack is literally a-move and enjoy straight at the centre of zerg concave That's because if literally anything else were viable, we'd be using it. YOU try controlling a Phoenix disruptor mothership core sentry high templar blink stalker ball and tell me how you fare.
Actually!
This is hard because you are required hotkeys for each unit or tabbing to use their abilites.
It struck me if you were able to use the abilites of all selected units as long as the abilities were on different hotkey controlling this would be MUCH simplier.
If you have Sentires, High Templar and Phoneix selected and pressed F for Forcefield, it would forcefield. T for storm. L for lift. The design forcing to tab between units feels quite dumb when you think about it. As longs as you have different hotkey for all the abilites.
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On April 12 2016 18:10 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 14:08 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 13:35 RaFox17 wrote:On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote:On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote:
dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. Funny to talk about micro when toss immortal/archon/charge attack is literally a-move and enjoy straight at the centre of zerg concave That's because if literally anything else were viable, we'd be using it. YOU try controlling a Phoenix disruptor mothership core sentry high templar blink stalker ball and tell me how you fare. Actually! This is hard because you are required hotkeys for each unit or tabbing to use their abilites. It struck me if you were able to use the abilites of all selected units as long as the abilities were on different hotkey controlling this would be MUCH simplier. If you have Sentires, High Templar and Phoneix selected and pressed F for Forcefield, it would forcefield. T for storm. L for lift. The design forcing to tab between units feels quite dumb when you think about it. As longs as you have different hotkey for all the abilites.
yeah, but you would have to design the game for it. You would have to racially limit the abilities to one per button space and have racially unique hotkeys. It's what Project Atlas does (I think), but you can obviously not make 15 units per race and give each of them 1-4 abilities.
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4713 Posts
On April 12 2016 17:59 Supah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 16:20 Destructicon wrote:On April 12 2016 04:42 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 12 2016 04:38 Nerchio wrote:On April 12 2016 04:36 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game I can understand why you would want to nerf the units you mentioned, but why on earth buff the infestor? It's only used these days for fungal in combination with ravager bile otherwise it's totally useless, they should bring back upgraded infested terrans since right now infestor is the worst spellcaster in the game. On April 12 2016 04:37 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game Nerf carrier? Does anyone seriously make carriers right now? No they don't but it doesn't change the fact that they are too strong  sOs makes carriers and wins with them. I would be very wary of IT buff, because do we really want to go back to the days of spawning infinite free 3/3 marines all over every other army in the game....?? The end of one WoL game in particular comes to mind. It was a GSL match between a zerg (I think it was Symbol) vs mass skytoss, heavily upgraded carriers/voidrays. The zerg just sprayed ITs everywhere and the entire protoss air army died to free 3/3 units. EDIT: I'm sure stuchiu knows what game I'm thinking of, I've seen it posted in random threads around here before. It was on Daybreak if that helps at all... (I know, there were a lot of games on Daybreak.) I think it was a game vs MC or Creator, they were the only crazy dudes that tried to make mass skytoss work back then and I specifically remember some of their games on Daybreak. It was MC on Daybreak. I remember that game, he went VR/Carrier/HT/Mothership and essentially solved Broodlord/Infestor before the nerf. He used Carriers like Tempests and was able to zone the Zerg. I believe it was literally the last pro game before the nerf too.
He didn't solve it though, maybe he won 1 game like that but he and Creator lost tons of games trying that and it only really worked on Daybreak because of the architecture of the map.
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If they are gonna nerf Liberators AA damage they could go for the range nerf on the AG mode instead of the radius nerf (range nerfs the harassment potential just fine, a radius nerf is kinda huge). Small steps.
I've been thinking about BCs lately. Their base attack (plus Yamato) should not care about the enemy armor if the unit is ever gonna viable in TvZ due to ultras. In general the enemy army is gonna have +3 armor when they come out too.
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Three zergs SSL winners bracket semis
Zerg wins SSL
Dark just figured out new ZvP style, looks super strong
Protoss winrates vs zerg at 46% overall
Nerf protoss.
OK then Blizzard.
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Norway839 Posts
I hope the maps become brighter after the changes, endion and dusk towers are miserable atm
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I second this. Ruins of Endion give me eyestrain just to make out what is going on the map. I didn't even notice some rocks because it was too dark.
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I've noticed that using Hybrid Settings with effects/terrain on makes the maps brighter. I think they use an illumination effect that is not shown on low settings.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 12 2016 18:52 Liquid`Snute wrote:
I hope the maps become brighter after the changes, endion and dusk towers are miserable atm
This is not a problem with the brightness in particular, it's a problem with the lighting system that blizzard has set for their maps.
Read from here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/505756-dark-maps-and-zvz?page=2
Dusk and Endion are two of the worst examples (Dusk being grey blue and Endion being grey orange), but this also affects most/all of the campaign missions and some other maps.
Please post in that thread or make another and give it some more attention - It's neccesary if improvements are to be made
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On April 12 2016 15:11 Tuczniak wrote:
If Blizzard haven't seen this coming it's their fault and failure. They should look past winrates and look at games. No matter what winrates are, the PvZ matchup has obvious problems.
These problems are:
1) Zerg have too many viable strategies that can kill Protoss outright and are not even all-in
2) Zerg is equally strong at any stage of the game
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Don't even know what to comment on these things since it seems like ideas are thrown about and then discarded with every update.
I like the lib AA nerf for TvT so that Vikings are not countered as hard. The Thor buff might compensate, but it needs more range to, not just dmg.
The most important thing for me is still the flying tanks that i see as a cancer for TvT and make me not want to play or watch the game at all.
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On April 12 2016 18:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 18:10 Glorfindel! wrote:On April 12 2016 14:08 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 13:35 RaFox17 wrote:On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote:On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote:
dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. Funny to talk about micro when toss immortal/archon/charge attack is literally a-move and enjoy straight at the centre of zerg concave That's because if literally anything else were viable, we'd be using it. YOU try controlling a Phoenix disruptor mothership core sentry high templar blink stalker ball and tell me how you fare. Actually! This is hard because you are required hotkeys for each unit or tabbing to use their abilites. It struck me if you were able to use the abilites of all selected units as long as the abilities were on different hotkey controlling this would be MUCH simplier. If you have Sentires, High Templar and Phoneix selected and pressed F for Forcefield, it would forcefield. T for storm. L for lift. The design forcing to tab between units feels quite dumb when you think about it. As longs as you have different hotkey for all the abilites. yeah, but you would have to design the game for it. You would have to racially limit the abilities to one per button space and have racially unique hotkeys. It's what Project Atlas does (I think), but you can obviously not make 15 units per race and give each of them 1-4 abilities.
This is probably one of the best things they could have done for starcraft. It would allow for much better control and army compositions.
sure it might benefit protoss the most, but at the moment - you cant make sentries / Disruptor / blink together and play them effectively, just because the UI is so clunky and bad for it.
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On April 12 2016 20:57 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The most important thing for me is still the flying tanks that i see as a cancer for TvT and make me not want to play or watch the game at all.
Same for me
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On April 12 2016 21:17 weikor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 18:28 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 18:10 Glorfindel! wrote:On April 12 2016 14:08 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 13:35 RaFox17 wrote:On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote:On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote:
dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. Funny to talk about micro when toss immortal/archon/charge attack is literally a-move and enjoy straight at the centre of zerg concave That's because if literally anything else were viable, we'd be using it. YOU try controlling a Phoenix disruptor mothership core sentry high templar blink stalker ball and tell me how you fare. Actually! This is hard because you are required hotkeys for each unit or tabbing to use their abilites. It struck me if you were able to use the abilites of all selected units as long as the abilities were on different hotkey controlling this would be MUCH simplier. If you have Sentires, High Templar and Phoneix selected and pressed F for Forcefield, it would forcefield. T for storm. L for lift. The design forcing to tab between units feels quite dumb when you think about it. As longs as you have different hotkey for all the abilites. yeah, but you would have to design the game for it. You would have to racially limit the abilities to one per button space and have racially unique hotkeys. It's what Project Atlas does (I think), but you can obviously not make 15 units per race and give each of them 1-4 abilities. This is probably one of the best things they could have done for starcraft. It would allow for much better control and army compositions. sure it might benefit protoss the most, but at the moment - you cant make sentries / Disruptor / blink together and play them effectively, just because the UI is so clunky and bad for it.
yeah, the whole genre has been aching for better control options for years. But so far the game designers didn't want to give up on gameplay options to make it happen. We can see it in tons of other games, like CnC:RA3 having exactly one ability on each unit (with the same hotkey for all of them to make it easy to learn), SupCom with huge automatization options or that dinosaur RTS from years ago with the pretty innovative control group manager.
Being able to quickly access units without having to be a mechanical genius is the big challenge of the genre, but has been ignored until MobA's just did it (by limiting their game to what was accessible) and now draw all the players.
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I think there's a difference between Zerg as a whole requiring very little micro in ZvP since WoL beta and the only viable Protoss build in the current meta actually being unmicroable.
Regardless,
There cannot be one build that is viable. Sooner or later, they will learn to beat it. And if they don't learn to beat it, then it will be patched. There have to be other viable play styles for Protoss.
Right now the early game advantage for Zerg shuts down so many options for Protoss... Anything that isn't go Stargate, make phoenixes, turtle, build lots of Immortals and try to win quickly before Brood Lords just dies to ZERGLINGS. Or Ravagers, if they're so inclined.
It's the same complaint that Terran had in HotS (why do we only have one viable build).
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I think Protoss is only strong for people with good Control a good BO and strong macro.
If you can handle 5 CGs its good, because you get perfect forcefields, and barriers along with feedbacks, blinks and disruptarballlz.
That was a good change that Legacy brought. Take the F2A out of protoss.
You cant play sloppy like Terran ("In case of emergency get liberators") or Zerg "All my Hotkeys are hatcheries".
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On April 12 2016 22:55 KT_Elwood wrote:
I think Protoss is only strong for people with good Control a good BO and strong macro.
If you can handle 5 CGs its good, because you get perfect forcefields, and barriers along with feedbacks, blinks and disruptarballlz.
That was a good change that Legacy brought. Take the F2A out of protoss.
You cant play sloppy like Terran ("In case of emergency get liberators") or Zerg "All my Hotkeys are hatcheries".
I don't think overgeneralizing like this is really helping the discussion
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On April 12 2016 22:35 DinoMight wrote:
I think there's a difference between Zerg as a whole requiring very little micro in ZvP since WoL beta and the only viable Protoss build in the current meta actually being unmicroable.
Regardless,
There cannot be one build that is viable. Sooner or later, they will learn to beat it. And if they don't learn to beat it, then it will be patched. There have to be other viable play styles for Protoss.
Right now the early game advantage for Zerg shuts down so many options for Protoss... Anything that isn't go Stargate, make phoenixes, turtle, build lots of Immortals and try to win quickly before Brood Lords just dies to ZERGLINGS. Or Ravagers, if they're so inclined.
It's the same complaint that Terran had in HotS (why do we only have one viable build).
That complaint has been there throughout all matchups at some points. And blizzard rarely adressed them, at least not successfully. Most of the matchups are indeed - and will always be - one-style matchups.
Yeah, I wish they would change that where it is blatantly obvious (most blatantly visible in ZvZ, TvP and TvT imo), but the line of argumentation that Protoss is not playable in the longrun with just one style is not valid (and it really is one style, not just one build. There are multiple builds to get into that style and Protoss also has playable, allinish builds besides that).
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I think I was pretty specific. Protoss needs better control now than ever. And IF you can do that, the units are strong.
If not, well better make 40 Marines/marauders/Roaches/Hydras, press Stim and A-Move.
BUT 99% of all players are not korean Top Protoss players.
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On April 12 2016 18:10 Glorfindel! wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 14:08 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 13:35 RaFox17 wrote:On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote:On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote:
dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. Funny to talk about micro when toss immortal/archon/charge attack is literally a-move and enjoy straight at the centre of zerg concave That's because if literally anything else were viable, we'd be using it. YOU try controlling a Phoenix disruptor mothership core sentry high templar blink stalker ball and tell me how you fare. Actually! This is hard because you are required hotkeys for each unit or tabbing to use their abilites. It struck me if you were able to use the abilites of all selected units as long as the abilities were on different hotkey controlling this would be MUCH simplier.
I suggested this awhile ago on the Blizzard forums after I ran into the issue, allowing you to press F and cast a forcefield no matter how many different casters you had selected would alleviate the control problem.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/20742685059#4
Per usual when it comes to community ideas, it was ignored.
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EPT
