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On April 13 2016 02:14 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 18:10 Glorfindel! wrote:On April 12 2016 14:08 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 13:35 RaFox17 wrote:On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote:On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote:
dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better  But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. Funny to talk about micro when toss immortal/archon/charge attack is literally a-move and enjoy straight at the centre of zerg concave That's because if literally anything else were viable, we'd be using it. YOU try controlling a Phoenix disruptor mothership core sentry high templar blink stalker ball and tell me how you fare. Actually! This is hard because you are required hotkeys for each unit or tabbing to use their abilites. It struck me if you were able to use the abilites of all selected units as long as the abilities were on different hotkey controlling this would be MUCH simplier. I suggested this awhile ago on the Blizzard forums after I ran into the issue, allowing you to press F and cast a forcefield no matter how many different casters you had selected would alleviate the control problem. Per usual when it comes to community ideas, it was ignored.
Excuse me mister community, but you're idea is not that smart.
Why the heck should I be forced to have different hotkeys set for each spell? What if I just like to have mostly the same 2-3 keys for every ability in the game?
What if I want to use rapid fire trick to emp with my ghost without having all the rest of my army derping hardcore?
What about people playing with a grid hotkey settting?
And what about people using the core hotkey setting?
and so on and on and on...
It's perfectly fine as it is really, that tab key is not so hard to hit.
Really, I'm glad Blizzard ignores you, mister community.
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I mean, you could have said that less condescending, but I agree.
You can't have a system with propagating hotkeys without redoing the whole hotkey systems. Considering this is a hotkey system used in every arcade map, starcraft, and heroes. That's never going to happen.
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You can always add global hotkey which can be associated with certain abilities if units are in group. It's an option, it wouldn't hurt anything, but not very elegant.
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David Kim Loves Zerg. That should help clear some things up. With Lurkers to Handle Ground and Corruptors to handle air, as well as Vipers, and Infestors. im pretty sure Zerg has plenty of tools in it's toolbag, i play both races at masters level and zergs ability to expand and make Inject x Number of Hatcheries = Units of any kind at one time, clearly sets it ahead of any race. Zergs are fine vs protoss quit playing, protoss are just finally playing well.
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On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game
What about bunker build time !!???
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Basically if you aren't a (Korean) Pro Protoss player, you can get out of SC2 because Blizzard don't care about the casuals.
I don't know who your "pro" sources are, but they're obviously just protecting their profession. I think it's a mistake to ignore the general statistics and just do what the pros want. This game is for everyone
This game needs changes. Not tomorrow or "soon" . NOW. Yesterday would even be better.
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The biggest problem in sc2 is how much effort is required to defend as opposed to attack.;
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You made too many roaches? no problem just turn them into ravagers
You made too many Hydra's? no problem just turn them into Lurkers
You made too many corruptors? no problem, now they can attack buildings as well.
Random buffs to the broodlord, to the ling and the ultralisk recieved a huuuuge buff, but there wasnt a tradeoff f.e. slower attack? nope.
Burrowed things? everyone can see the mine, but a lurker, ultralisk etc? nope. Liberator siege mode: big bright circel to warn your enemy....
Warprism pickup range+speed is not fun, its gimmicky.
Mech? still horror to play.
Mass adept, oh you forgot to wall off even better than vs zerg... now you are fcked....
Just a few of the endless examples.
"the game has been balanced around the top" Sure, but the top isnt selling the game to friends. Casuals do.
Its such a shame, many friends do not want to play anymore, they "hate" the game because its frustrating. A difficult game is fine, but LOTV is artificial hard to be a hard game in many situations. They liked hots, even when the kept on losing, because it was fun to play. Regardless the race.
"They can still play hots" true, but they have moved on. Time is precious, they dont want to play on empty servers with que times of 3 to 6 minutes. More games and things to do besides LOTV.
Hope they will make the game more fun.
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Late game Protoss is a hard to play against and getting fixed.
So is mid game Terran and Zerg for Protoss, when is that getting fixed?
When is Protoss getting old chronoboost back? Current one is bad, face it.
When is warp-in change getting reverted or modified? No more timing pushes or emergency warp-in against drops, gg.
I give this game one more year before it goes completely under competitively, with this kind of balancing work.
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On April 13 2016 02:29 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 02:14 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2016 18:10 Glorfindel! wrote:On April 12 2016 14:08 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 13:35 RaFox17 wrote:On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote:On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote:On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote:
dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. Funny to talk about micro when toss immortal/archon/charge attack is literally a-move and enjoy straight at the centre of zerg concave That's because if literally anything else were viable, we'd be using it. YOU try controlling a Phoenix disruptor mothership core sentry high templar blink stalker ball and tell me how you fare. Actually! This is hard because you are required hotkeys for each unit or tabbing to use their abilites. It struck me if you were able to use the abilites of all selected units as long as the abilities were on different hotkey controlling this would be MUCH simplier. I suggested this awhile ago on the Blizzard forums after I ran into the issue, allowing you to press F and cast a forcefield no matter how many different casters you had selected would alleviate the control problem. Per usual when it comes to community ideas, it was ignored. Excuse me mister community, but you're idea is not that smart. Why the heck should I be forced to have different hotkeys set for each spell? What if I just like to have mostly the same 2-3 keys for every ability in the game? What if I want to use rapid fire trick to emp with my ghost without having all the rest of my army derping hardcore? What about people playing with a grid hotkey settting? And what about people using the core hotkey setting? and so on and on and on... It's perfectly fine as it is really, that tab key is not so hard to hit. Really, I'm glad Blizzard ignores you, mister community.
Who said anything had to be forced?
It could be an option. You can continue to hotkey as is, or you could adopt this new system. I believe in as many options as possible. You must not play Protoss much because you'd realize that tenths of a second matter. Having to tab thru multiple casters to select a Sentry to Forcefield a ramp before the Lings come thru, or a High Templar to Feedback that Viper before it Abducts, these action comes down to sub second micro. Tabbing takes too long. So what do Protoss players do? They limit the number of units with abilities they use, so they can play like the other races where nearly every unit doesn't have a unique ability.
And the tab key might not be so hard to hit, but knowing the difference between you're and your is even simpler but you still can't get it right. Maybe I am smarter than you think...
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On April 12 2016 06:27 The_Red_Viper wrote:
The best change would be pathing changes. Sc2 always falls back to an army which simply does its damage way too fast because the dps/area is too high for the enemy army to trade reasonably.
Change the blob pathing and you will have a better foundation to balance around it.
It would also look a lot better which is imo just as important for enjoyment (both watching and playing the game) than actual balance numbers. Not that this is anything new, but hey blizzard said they are still open for bigger changes... (i think they also said one time that they already tried it internally though)
Unfortunately, they will never let us test this change unless the majority of community or some big gun like Maru, Zest or Soo demands it.
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Wait, what?! I never knew Zergs found it impossible to beat Protoss in late game. I thought the current meta swinged towards Zerg always winning with mass lurkers. After colossus range was nerfed (and storm being ranged shorted than lurkers), I thought Zerg were favoured more than Protoss. Especially after how Solar and Dark crushed every Protoss they ever played against.
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On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game
no f that. Buff everything!
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You know what would be cool, LukerHost. Its a buff to the swarmhost to make people play it again. It now spawns flying lurkers! Balance you ask? Cool factor I say!
Amazing feedback from the pros, Stats losing to Dark ezpz in a matchup where zerg have "a very low chance" is pretty sad. He must be getting bullied pretty hard when the other kespa players wont let him in on this new meta.
PvZ numbers for March where over 46%, time for a swift nerf to the immortal to get that sub 40% asap. After all, we all know zerg players have much more talent.
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On April 13 2016 11:21 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
"the game has been balanced around the top" Sure, but the top isnt selling the game to friends. Casuals do.
No. People that want a difficult game do [to other players that want the same]. Because that is what StarCraft has been all about.
StarCraft:BW had the whole custom game scene going for it back when F2P games weren't a thing, and it still tanked popularity wise over here. StarCraft II is basically built only around players that want difficult 1v1 RTS and the most successful RTS right now.
It's not right to say casuals fuel StarCraft II, because they don't. Even if you are sitting in Bronze right now, you're anything but casual. You're playing one of the most unforgiving and frustrating games out there - that is anything but casual.
That does not mean that automatically catering to the top is the best thing to do. But going "We need to cater to casuals" will do nothing. Casuals are playing LoL vs Bots, casuals are playing Heroes Of the Storm. Casuals are playing mobile games, facebook games, or custom maps in any kind of game. Thats what casuals do. And even if Blizzard attracted those, they are not making money off of them unless they sell their singleplayer content or 1v1 ranked.
But as it is casuals are neither playing nor interested in competetive StarCraft II. And yes, I just called the ladder competetive.
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On April 13 2016 20:06 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 11:21 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
"the game has been balanced around the top" Sure, but the top isnt selling the game to friends. Casuals do.
That does not mean that automatically catering to the top is the best thing to do. But going "We need to cater to casuals" will do nothing. Casuals are playing LoL vs Bots, casuals are playing Heroes Of the Storm. Casuals are playing mobile games, facebook games, or custom maps in any kind of game. Thats what casuals do. And even if Blizzard attracted those, they are not making money off of them unless they sell their singleplayer content or 1v1 ranked.
Mostly agree, but it's not that black and white. There was a 'level' of casual audience that was fine with WoL and HotS ladder and now is doubleplusunfine with Legacy. Economy changes and mechanical difficulty as its own reward shooed those people away. Was it worth it?
Generally there seems to be a lack of accountability in the gaming industry and a terrible problem with echo chambers. Wildstar: Hardcore. Launch Diablo III: Fuck that loser. Developers who have more or less lost it and these are triple A titles and not some indy newcomers. In other businesses there is a paygrade above these guys to ideally get them to perform again or at least prevent them from doing irrevocable harm to your product. Which brings us to David K.
If your job is balancing, you look at the last six months of pvz winrates and believe everything is a-okay, you are too dumb or too biased for your job. Dumb. Or biased. There is no fucking third option.
And why? Maybe he spent time on forums. Maybe he read too many 'Protoss bullshit', 'I hate that race' 'got protossed' comments, Maybe he agreed, maybe he just wanted to become their hero by making Protoss both the weakest and the mechanically most demanding race. Maybe the state of the game is exactly what the community wants and deserves.
I thought I wouldn't care enough for another post. But I've spent thousands of hours of my life playing Blizzard RTS. Starcraft imploding as a game and as an e-sport will also mean no Warcraft IV anytime soon. And that will make me sad. At least somewhat.
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If your job is balancing, you look at the last six months of pvz winrates and believe everything is a-okay, you are too dumb or too biased for your job. Dumb. Or biased. There is no fucking third option.
Korea:
Proleague R1: 8-8
Proleague R1: 3-2
GSL Code S: 10-16
GSL Code A: 21-19
SSL Main Event: 22-13
1 Zerg champion
1 Protoss runner-up
International:
Gold Series International: 15-20
Dreamhack Leipzig Main Tournament: 72-74
WCS 2016 Winter Circuit Championship: 15-10
2 Protoss champions
3 Zerg runner-ups
I choose option three, it has been pretty balanced so far, or at least in the last two or three months.
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On April 13 2016 21:40 Aiobhill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 20:06 KeksX wrote:On April 13 2016 11:21 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
"the game has been balanced around the top" Sure, but the top isnt selling the game to friends. Casuals do.
That does not mean that automatically catering to the top is the best thing to do. But going "We need to cater to casuals" will do nothing. Casuals are playing LoL vs Bots, casuals are playing Heroes Of the Storm. Casuals are playing mobile games, facebook games, or custom maps in any kind of game. Thats what casuals do. And even if Blizzard attracted those, they are not making money off of them unless they sell their singleplayer content or 1v1 ranked. Mostly agree, but it's not that black and white. There was a 'level' of casual audience that was fine with WoL and HotS ladder and now is doubleplusunfine with Legacy. Economy changes and mechanical difficulty as its own reward shooed those people away. Was it worth it? Generally there seems to be a lack of accountability in the gaming industry and a terrible problem with echo chambers. Wildstar: Hardcore. Launch Diablo III: Fuck that loser. Developers who have more or less lost it and these are triple A titles and not some indy newcomers. In other businesses there is a paygrade above these guys to ideally get them to perform again or at least prevent them from doing irrevocable harm to your product. Which brings us to David K. If your job is balancing, you look at the last six months of pvz winrates and believe everything is a-okay, you are too dumb or too biased for your job. Dumb. Or biased. There is no fucking third option. And why? Maybe he spent time on forums. Maybe he read too many 'Protoss bullshit', 'I hate that race' 'got protossed' comments, Maybe he agreed, maybe he just wanted to become their hero by making Protoss both the weakest and the mechanically most demanding race. Maybe the state of the game is exactly what the community wants and deserves. I thought I wouldn't care enough for another post. But I've spent thousands of hours of my life playing Blizzard RTS. Starcraft imploding as a game and as an e-sport will also mean no Warcraft IV anytime soon. And that will make me sad. At least somewhat.
OK, so you say this "If your job is balancing, you look at the last six months of pvz winrates and believe everything is a-okay, you are too dumb or too biased for your job. Dumb. Or biased. There is no fucking third option. " could you please elaborate why do you think David Kim's balancing decisions were bad? For me everything he did made perfect sense. If you look at winrates that involved similar level players you saw that zerg was favored so it made sense that zerg needed nerf, and David Kim introduced some nerfs to zerg race. But now, that protoss players figured out how to deal with zerg player strategies better and actually shifted win rates in their favor without patch, sc2 balancing team decided to hold on nerfing zerg and look on the matchup more before doing any decisions. Everything sc2 balancing team did so far made perfect sense to me.
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On April 13 2016 08:59 Tresher wrote:
Basically if you aren't a (Korean) Pro Protoss player, you can get out of SC2 because Blizzard don't care about the casuals.
I don't know who your "pro" sources are, but they're obviously just protecting their profession. I think it's a mistake to ignore the general statistics and just do what the pros want. This game is for everyone
This game needs changes. Not tomorrow or "soon" . NOW. Yesterday would even be better.
It's really shameless actually. An entire game designed specifically to be an eSport first, and fun second. Some corporate idiot obviously got really carried away by the whole BW Korean scene and took things way too far. Here's the thing about real sports. They are accessible and fun to EVERYONE, even 8 year old kids playing tee ball or playing in some kid's soccer league. If nobody can play and enjoy the game, if you make the barriers so high, no one's going to love the game and no one's going to want to watch your hypothetical eSports money machine.
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On April 13 2016 13:10 Thinh123456 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:27 The_Red_Viper wrote:
The best change would be pathing changes. Sc2 always falls back to an army which simply does its damage way too fast because the dps/area is too high for the enemy army to trade reasonably.
Change the blob pathing and you will have a better foundation to balance around it.
It would also look a lot better which is imo just as important for enjoyment (both watching and playing the game) than actual balance numbers. Not that this is anything new, but hey blizzard said they are still open for bigger changes... (i think they also said one time that they already tried it internally though) Unfortunately, they will never let us test this change unless the majority of community or some big gun like Maru, Zest or Soo demands it.
Balance aside, it just looks way better. The enjoyment of watching and playing the game would increase imo with such a change, even if it wouldn't change much about the unit interactions (which it would i think)
Blizzard telling us that they tested it and it didn't change the game is such a cop out imo, this should have been in the beta testing 100%.
But yeah as i said, i think blizzard (and the community) is greatly neglecting the aesthetics such a change would bring, this is extremely important for a game which just "feels good".
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EPT
