EPTDavid Kim, April 11 - Map Update on Thursday - Page 7
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Comedy
462 Posts
Even though immortals are very very strong in the mid game, I think the true problem is that, the game ends for zerg at the mid game. Therefore the obvious thought is 'Immortals are too strong' but what if the late game was more of an even footing. If both races could go to the late game (Broodlord/corrupter/viper/infestor/queen vs Tempest/Carrier/Ht/Void/Mothership) then maybe the immortal is fine as it is right now. I think Parasitic bomb was supposed to adress the inability of Zerg to do anything to Protoss (&Terran) Air armies in the late game, and this seems to have done its job vs terran. Unfortunately, The protoss late game massable air units like tempest and carriers with HT support have over 400/450 health (with shields). so a 60 damage PB is pathetic against that and does almost nothing... that leaves abduct as the only good option, but with the oracle buff to envision that was installed in HotS (because of the endless swarmhost games - and realistically has no place in the current game anymore because it makes tempest ridiculous vs T and Z.) The tempest can use their insane range to take free shots almost constantly to take out vipers and corrupters for free, and on top of that templars shut down any energy unit with a single click so incredibly hard that it creates a completely skewed game in favor of Protoss. I wonder if the late game problem isn't a bigger problem than the rather isolated strenght of the immortal. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:43 Nerchio wrote: How is it zerg favoured exactly? On TL you guys like stats from Korea and the truth is Zerg did well only in SSL which was played way earlier than GSL. People figured out the game and the result is only 1 zerg in RO8 of GSL. The truth is protoss players abused their race to the fullest before Koreans did but they can't do it so well ofcourse. Nice cherry picking dude. You forgot to mention that Korean tournaments (especially GSL) don't use super creative and terribly Zerg favoured ladder maps. So no wonder that Protoss looks strong in Korea, but looks super weak in NA and Europe. And one more thing: if you look at who wrecked Zergs in those Korean tournaments, it was mostly Terrans. But yeah, let's nerf Protoss some more, even though Zerg is reigning supreme in PvZ... | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
FYI, we're not saying Zerg has no chance against Protoss. We were just as surprised as you guys were when we got the pro feedback last weekend. The reason we wanted to point it out asap is because in order for us to work together, we wanted you to have the information we got as well. If there is a shift in meta coming at the pro level, we're pretty sure that there will be a shift in meta at the ladder level also. This is a common trend we've seen over the years. Although there are some factors that we are keeping an eye on that we pointed out with this update, please remember our goal is to locate exactly where the state of the game lands. So we need to keep an open mind and gauge the situation without previous bias. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/4ec3um/david_kim_update_on_balance_and_map_changes/d1z09wm | ||
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Granas1
15 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
Months later, protoss abuses a midgame unit at one tournament - it seems like we overbuffed protoss, instant nerf. | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
FYI, we're not saying Zerg has no chance against Protoss. Gotta make it clear or we zerg would belive it, hahahahahaha | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
On April 12 2016 08:55 weikor wrote: Zerg abusing 5 different strategies, and dominating protoss since release - we will look into it one day Months later, protoss abuses a midgame unit at one tournament - it seems like we overbuffed protoss, instant nerf. So... what race do you think Blizzard Employee's play? | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 12 2016 09:16 BronzeKnee wrote: So... what race do you think Blizzard Employee's play? Hard to say, but I bet that they are not playing Protoss enough. Otherwise the race would not be in this dire state since release. | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2392 Posts
 )On April 12 2016 04:36 TheLordofAwesome wrote: I can understand why you would want to nerf the units you mentioned, but why on earth buff the infestor? the only reason its useful at all right now is cuz of the combo with bile so with a ravager nerf it would become rather irrelevant again On April 12 2016 04:37 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Nerf carrier? Does anyone seriously make carriers right now? rarely cuz they take a long time; but they are pretty unbeatable in pvz and pvp once theres more than a few out with support On April 12 2016 05:56 Silvana wrote: Blizzard, stop asking Nerchio and Scarlett for feedback pls -.- i dont actually give feedback cause im sure it wouldnt be taken so i just rant on teamliquid pretty sure if koreans posted here you'd see the same thing from them though On April 12 2016 07:18 Cyro wrote: Few people do because it's not in fashion to use infestors even in the situations that they're worth the money in. I have seen some Z in pro games use them - against disruptors you can cancel a shot that has just been fired or you can control the disruptor for 0.1 second and shoot at the protoss it doesnt cancel the shot and protoss still gets to control it (plus if neural ends before the hit explodes it wont affect any disruptors) dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time | ||
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WeddingEpisode
United States356 Posts
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On April 12 2016 09:32 Scarlett` wrote: dont think ive won a lategame zvp game in over a month (even on ladder); and ive played probably 750+ games in that time Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On April 12 2016 09:46 CheddarToss wrote: Funny that you would say that. Watching Neeb's, Puck's and State's stream (and a bit of Le Twilight Council --> Lilbow and Drogo) it seems to me that Protoss either dies in the early game or sustains such an absurd amount of damage, that he dies in mid or late game. When Protoss win with the Chargelot/Immo/Archon/Phoenix push, it mostly feels that Zergs botched their positioning rather than Protoss being strong. What I mean by that is, that after all this time, hardly any Zerg spreads their Lurkers sufficiently. It boggles my mind how little most Zergs do to control their army. Lurkers clumped up, almost on top of each other, so that they can get lifted by Phoenix with minimal losses to the Protoss or focused fired by Immos in a blink of an eye. And instead of working on improving the positioning, we get to hear how imba Immortals are. You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better  But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2392 Posts
On April 12 2016 09:54 DinoMight wrote: You're expecting Zerg to micro? Come on man... you should know better But it's true. This may be like marine splitting back in the day... Zergs simply need to control their units better. Split the lurkers. With 9 range, spreading them out means that the Protoss units would have to spend more time walking in between fighting lurkers. It's common sense. You still see top Korean pros just burrow 7 lurkers right there on top of each other. cuz if theres no aoe like disruptors they're better when clumped (in most situations ofc theres exceptions) | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
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Cluster__
United States328 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:38 Nerchio wrote: It's only used these days for fungal in combination with ravager bile otherwise it's totally useless, they should bring back upgraded infested terrans since right now infestor is the worst spellcaster in the game. No they don't but it doesn't change the fact that they are too strong  Does SwarmHost count a spell caster? ;-\ | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
But that aggression is so strong that it can often dictate what the late game Protoss army looks like to a good extent. | ||
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Cassalina
United States65 Posts
this game could be balanced based on community feedback too, not just from pro tournies or pro feedback. :\ some of these issues were addressed by the community LONG before they showed them off in these tournies David is citing. This was the first time in my experience with Blizz games that a designer did not really pay attention to the masses and was very narrow in his thinking and decision making, basing it only on professional gaming. It is what it is, I think the game is still great and I still play it, but I really hope he will pay closer attention to the community. | ||
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
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