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On April 12 2016 06:47 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:41 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 12 2016 06:39 DinoMight wrote:
Look, all I'm trying to say is Protoss got hosed for 6 months and nothing happened. Then we figure out a build that can win and IN THE NEXT UPDATE David Kim is already talking about nerfing it.
They haven't even given the build enough time to be validated as a legitimate balance concern.
It's like if the game after Jaedong vs. Has they immediately nerfed Photon Cannons. double robo immortals styles have been said to be pretty hard to deal with for months, and now that P players have learnt to defend the early game shenanigans they're becoming problematic and I understand the update. That being said, I think not making a balance move and waiting for things like Dark's style to emerge would be the wisest idea. I think it comes down to how often they want to patch the game. Some games do it all the damn time. Dota is almost a new game every time they patch it. I think it's okay to have a strategy that lasts a couple of months before someone finds an answer to it. But 6 months of a race getting owned in win% in a particular matchup is too much. They should at least try to even out the times that they're willing to let players adapt. So the balance team at least has some sort of arbitrary way of identifying what is a balance issue and what is simply a new build that players haven't learned to deal with yet.
relax bro. Everyone understands that if immortals were to be adressed then lurkers and ravagers would not be untouched.
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On April 12 2016 06:47 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:41 [PkF] Wire wrote:On April 12 2016 06:39 DinoMight wrote:
Look, all I'm trying to say is Protoss got hosed for 6 months and nothing happened. Then we figure out a build that can win and IN THE NEXT UPDATE David Kim is already talking about nerfing it.
They haven't even given the build enough time to be validated as a legitimate balance concern.
It's like if the game after Jaedong vs. Has they immediately nerfed Photon Cannons. double robo immortals styles have been said to be pretty hard to deal with for months, and now that P players have learnt to defend the early game shenanigans they're becoming problematic and I understand the update. That being said, I think not making a balance move and waiting for things like Dark's style to emerge would be the wisest idea. I think it comes down to how often they want to patch the game. Some games do it all the damn time. Dota is almost a new game every time they patch it. I think it's okay to have a strategy that lasts a couple of months before someone finds an answer to it. But 6 months of a race getting owned in win% in a particular matchup is too much. They should at least try to even out the times that they're willing to let players adapt. So the balance team at least has some sort of arbitrary way of identifying what is a balance issue and what is simply a new build that players haven't learned to deal with yet.
I definitely understand where you're coming from, I play P myself  . But don't forget they're just mentioning the concern has reached them -like the concern about P early game had reached them, they tested a ravager nerf, an overlord drop nerf...- not saying P should be nerfed to the ground.
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[QUOTE]On April 12 2016 04:38 Nerchio wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 12 2016 04:36 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game[/QUOTE]
I can understand why you would want to nerf the units you mentioned, but why on earth buff the infestor?[/QUOTE]
It's only used these days for fungal in combination with ravager bile otherwise it's totally useless, they should bring back upgraded infested terrans since right now infestor is the worst spellcaster in the game.
[QUOTE]On April 12 2016 04:37 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game[/QUOTE]
At this point, i think anyone who's been playing this game since 2010 can agree, I would rather them just roll infestor all the way back to before the 2011 buff. You would be getting less dps but longer stun insta fungal for: Faster movement, more health, stronger infested terrans, and a longer range neural parasite. They actually made it worse than it originally was which is kinda silly when you think of why they had to buff it in the first place.
They were already hard to keep alive, but after the speed/health nerf, i have not seen one pro-gamer, even the cream of the crop like Life/Byul etc. be able to keep the bulk of their infestors alive for more than 2 separate engagements.
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On April 12 2016 04:23 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +Second, recent events and feedback are causing us to examine the PvZ matchup very closely. The latest Kespa pro feedback is that Zerg has a very low chance vs. Protoss due to changes in the meta. We also pinged a few non-Korean Protoss players regarding this, and they had a very similar sentiment. Thank god, late game Protoss is a nightmare. I'm glad theyre looking more at it.
Completely agree, the meta is definitely shifting to an extremely potent late game for Protoss, not like their mid game is weak by any means though. Stargate play into Mass Immortal/Templar/Chargelot is really strong and once Protoss remembers what a Sentry can do, I promise that Dark's most recent style will fall into obscurity. And the early phoenix flock gives amazing map control to complete such a dominating ground vs ground composition, it walks through Lurkers with ease.
Not saying Zerg is underpowered, Ravager timing attacks are still deadly if not prepared for and counter attack heavy styles are very strong on maps with wide open third bases, but Protoss is definitely not as weak vs. Zerg as they were 3 months ago, they were the most radically changed race in the beta so it made sense that they were suffering in at least one match up, the pros had to learn a new meta from scratch, where as with Zerg and Terran, bio is still the go to, Ling/Bling is now prevalent in all 3 match ups.
I still think invincible Nydus is the worst thing since the crust of the bread, it's an ever constant and ever effective threat, it's not like a drop ship, it's like anywhere a sneaky overlord wasn't meticulously cleaned out, uber strong in all match ups, I hate it, it's so damn gimmicky, theres literally any better solution to making Nydus strong then the way it currently is.
Cyclone and Swarm Host are still horrible, might as well be deleted from the game.
Liberator is still ridiculously strong against Mutalisks in the mid game making the most skill based unit in the game perhaps probably the Marine useless after building 6 of them and then Ultralisks make relying on the Ghost which is a shit unit 4 years later. It's a bad dynamic in the best match up in the game, it can be worked on for sure.
Tankivac is still gimmicky and tanks still suck even though good ideas were proposed and then...ignored? This could definitely use some elaboration.
Stalkers could probably use a bit of love, Blink timings are pretty weak with how fast you can crank mass speedlings when you scout Twilight Council, maybe something to make them hit light units a bit harder? Make them slightly less shitty in the game? They are already fucking horrible vs. Bio as we all know, them sucking in everything but PvP probably not too good.
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
and a longer range neural parasite
Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now.
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On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now.
Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor".
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On April 12 2016 06:54 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:23 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Second, recent events and feedback are causing us to examine the PvZ matchup very closely. The latest Kespa pro feedback is that Zerg has a very low chance vs. Protoss due to changes in the meta. We also pinged a few non-Korean Protoss players regarding this, and they had a very similar sentiment. Thank god, late game Protoss is a nightmare. I'm glad theyre looking more at it. and once Protoss remembers what a Sentry can do, I promise that Dark's most recent style will fall into obscurity
I'm going to read the rest of your post, but I don't think this is right : baneling drops will destroy you if you try to deal with the style with sentries. Going for an early storm is probably the best choice.
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
On April 12 2016 06:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:and a longer range neural parasite Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now. Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor".
??
Neural was reduced from 9 to 7 range and fungal damage was reduced by 1.2x in the same patch that made infestors quite a lot worse @mid to late 2011. They were strongest as a midgame and core unit before those nerfs.
Neural was since rebuffed back up to that range, so it already has that buff
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The recent PvZ results in Korea aren't toss-favored at all.
- Zest beat soO 2-0 in the Code S Ro16, and Dark beat Stats 4-2 in the SSL, which evens out.
- Going backwards through the Code S Ro32 results, Z and P basically trade wins until we are back at February 24th. Back then, Myungsik 2-0d Soulkey and Leenock lost 2-1 to both Seed and herO. Hardly recent.
- In Proleague R2, PvZ is 0-2 thus far. In the playoffs of R1, P went 3-1 vs Z. Evens out.
- In Proleague R1 Round Robin, PvZ was exactly 50%.
So it's perfect balance, expect for a few GSL groups in February. I didn't even mention SSL.
Before the supposed Protoss dominance starts happening, there's no need to even think about nerfing Toss.
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On April 12 2016 07:01 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:59 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:and a longer range neural parasite Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now. Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor". ?? Neural was reduced from 9 to 7 range and fungal damage was reduced by 1.2x in the same patch that made infestors quite a lot worse @mid to late 2011. They were strongest as a midgame and core unit before those nerfs. Neural was since rebuffed back up to that range, so it already has that buff It's a strange case. The timeline is effectively:- Mid 2011: Infestors are considered a joke unit built only by gimmick players like Destiny.
- September 20th 2011: Neural Parasite nerf. Infestors effectively lose the one ability that could sometimes do something.
- Mid 2012: Infestors are the most overpowered unit in the game.
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For the next balance test map update, we would like to look at a refined list of what we have been testing, as well as focus on potentially changing Libertor's AA damage focus to be vs. light, while at the same time changing the Thor's AA role to be high, single target damage instead of splash vs. light. We will have more info on this area later in the week.
I feel Dkim listened to every suggest i made 
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
On April 12 2016 07:14 Nine Gates wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 07:01 Cyro wrote:On April 12 2016 06:59 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:and a longer range neural parasite Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now. Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor". ?? Neural was reduced from 9 to 7 range and fungal damage was reduced by 1.2x in the same patch that made infestors quite a lot worse @mid to late 2011. They were strongest as a midgame and core unit before those nerfs. Neural was since rebuffed back up to that range, so it already has that buff It's a strange case. The timeline is effectively: - Mid 2011: Infestors are considered a joke unit built only by gimmick players like Destiny.
- September 20th 2011: Neural Parasite nerf. Infestors effectively lose the one ability that could sometimes do something.
- Mid 2012: Infestors are the most overpowered unit in the game.
They were built a lot in those 6 months to justify those nerfs. I played a lot of PvZ at the time and I've had stream VOD's of HuK and other players between patch 1.3 and 1.3.3 saved for years (fast infestor spam). After patch 1.3 and before the nerfs after that, fungal did 47 dmg vs armored. It does 30 now.
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I didn't know neural parasite was back to 9.
Maybe I should make more infestors. Not because they'll help me win, but because 9 range neural is fun. I wonder if I can use that to counter liberators.
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
I didn't know neural parasite was back to 9.
Few people do because it's not in fashion to use infestors even in the situations that they're worth the money in. I have seen some Z in pro games use them - against disruptors you can cancel a shot that has just been fired or you can control the disruptor for 0.1 second and shoot at the protoss
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On April 12 2016 07:01 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:59 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:and a longer range neural parasite Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now. Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor". ?? Neural was reduced from 9 to 7 range and fungal damage was reduced by 1.2x in the same patch that made infestors quite a lot worse @mid to late 2011. They were strongest as a midgame and core unit before those nerfs. Neural was since rebuffed back up to that range, so it already has that buff
Yeah, but as I said, that's not what anyone called the height of infestor play, which was 2012-13.
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On April 12 2016 07:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 07:01 Cyro wrote:On April 12 2016 06:59 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:and a longer range neural parasite Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now. Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor". ?? Neural was reduced from 9 to 7 range and fungal damage was reduced by 1.2x in the same patch that made infestors quite a lot worse @mid to late 2011. They were strongest as a midgame and core unit before those nerfs. Neural was since rebuffed back up to that range, so it already has that buff Yeah, but as I said, that's not what anyone called the height of infestor play, which was 2012-13.
why do you include 13 in there. infestors were once again nerfed in january 2013 (upgrades removed from IT which hurts to this day) and march 2013 hots came out.
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On April 12 2016 07:24 Comedy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 07:23 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 07:01 Cyro wrote:On April 12 2016 06:59 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:and a longer range neural parasite Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now. Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor". ?? Neural was reduced from 9 to 7 range and fungal damage was reduced by 1.2x in the same patch that made infestors quite a lot worse @mid to late 2011. They were strongest as a midgame and core unit before those nerfs. Neural was since rebuffed back up to that range, so it already has that buff Yeah, but as I said, that's not what anyone called the height of infestor play, which was 2012-13. why do you include 13 in there. infestors were once again nerfed in january 2013 (upgrades removed from IT which hurts to this day) and march 2013 hots came out.
Because tournaments like GSL Season 1 2013 were... well... 2013. And even though the infestor was comparatively nerfed that did not change the metagame at all. If anything, the situation escalated more and more in the last months of WoL, at least in TvZ and ZvZ.
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
On April 12 2016 07:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 07:01 Cyro wrote:On April 12 2016 06:59 Big J wrote:On April 12 2016 06:56 Cyro wrote:and a longer range neural parasite Neural was 9 range at the height of winfestor WOL and it's 9 range now. Mid 2011 was not the height of "winfestor". ?? Neural was reduced from 9 to 7 range and fungal damage was reduced by 1.2x in the same patch that made infestors quite a lot worse @mid to late 2011. They were strongest as a midgame and core unit before those nerfs. Neural was since rebuffed back up to that range, so it already has that buff Yeah, but as I said, that's not what anyone called the height of infestor play, which was 2012-13.
Heart of the swarm released Q1 2013 - infestors were very good end of WOL but they were even better in the midgame before those series of nerfs. People just didn't figure out infestor+BL until later
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On April 12 2016 06:54 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Blink timings are pretty weak with how fast you can crank mass speedlings when you scout Twilight Council, maybe something to make them hit light units a bit harder? Make them slightly less shitty in the game? They are already fucking horrible vs. Bio as we all know, them sucking in everything but PvP probably not too good.
It is time to revert the warp-in change.
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On April 12 2016 07:48 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 06:54 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Blink timings are pretty weak with how fast you can crank mass speedlings when you scout Twilight Council, maybe something to make them hit light units a bit harder? Make them slightly less shitty in the game? They are already fucking horrible vs. Bio as we all know, them sucking in everything but PvP probably not too good.
It is time to revert the warp-in change.
...And that would do what exactly to make Stalkers better in the late game? lol
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EPT
