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On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well.
How is it zerg favoured exactly? On TL you guys like stats from Korea and the truth is Zerg did well only in SSL which was played way earlier than GSL. People figured out the game and the result is only 1 zerg in RO8 of GSL. The truth is protoss players abused their race to the fullest before Koreans did but they can't do it so well ofcourse.
On April 12 2016 04:42 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:38 Nerchio wrote:On April 12 2016 04:36 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game I can understand why you would want to nerf the units you mentioned, but why on earth buff the infestor? It's only used these days for fungal in combination with ravager bile otherwise it's totally useless, they should bring back upgraded infested terrans since right now infestor is the worst spellcaster in the game. On April 12 2016 04:37 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game Nerf carrier? Does anyone seriously make carriers right now? No they don't but it doesn't change the fact that they are too strong  sOs makes carriers and wins with them. I would be very wary of IT buff, because do we really want to go back to the days of spawning infinite free 3/3 marines all over every other army in the game....?? The end of one WoL game in particular comes to mind. It was a GSL match between a zerg (I think it was Symbol) vs mass skytoss, heavily upgraded carriers/voidrays. The zerg just sprayed ITs everywhere and the entire protoss air army died to free 3/3 units. EDIT: I'm sure stuchiu knows what game I'm thinking of, I've seen it posted in random threads around here before. It was on Daybreak if that helps at all... (I know, there were a lot of games on Daybreak.)
You are right, we should add a unit to the game that works like a reaver but has free shots and does 150 damage so it kills half of zerg army in 1 shot 
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Protoss has the worst record since 2010 both in win-rates [aligulac.com] and a representation in "higher" leagues, and the only thing that is mentioned in regards to PvZ is that Zerg is weak late game? I'm sorry, but I really don't understand this....
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well.
You could still make a strong argument for it being zerg favored. If you play a best of 7 w/ every map in the pool, that just sucks for protoss. Zerg still wins more than twice as often on Prion. Every map ranges from "ok" to "completely terrible" for protoss, while it ranges from "ok" to "amazing" for zerg - the "creative" mapping styles seem to trend towards stuff that's awful for protoss to play on.
The P strong argument comes from small sample sizes of games played on cherry picked maps. The right map design can flip 60/40 to 40/60 either way.
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Not playing Z or P, from watching Koreans I feel like ZvP is the most balanced matchup at the moment. Though I don't like the dynamics behind it at all.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:44 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well. You could still make a strong argument for it being zerg favored. If you play a best of 7 w/ every map in the pool, that just sucks for protoss. Zerg still wins more than twice as often on Prion. Every map ranges from "ok" to "completely terrible" for protoss, while it ranges from "ok" to "amazing" for zerg - the "creative" mapping styles seem to trend towards stuff that's awful for protoss to play on. The P strong argument comes from small sample sizes of games played on cherry picked maps. The right map design can flip 60/40 to 40/60.
The match-up being Zerg favoured and Protoss late game being too strong aren't mutually exclusive.
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On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well.
I honestly think protoss players don't cry as much as terran/zerg lol
Similar stuff has happened to terran tho. Remember the nerfs on ghosts and thors just a few days after they were used to great effect in only a few games.
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On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game
Nerf medivacs??
no nerf to ultras??
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
Similar stuff has happened to terran tho. Remember the nerfs on ghosts and thors just a few days after they were used to great effect in only a few games.
The ghost nerfs took a while and quite a few high profile games were played like MVP vs Nestea on blizzcon stage
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On April 12 2016 04:54 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Similar stuff has happened to terran tho. Remember the nerfs on ghosts and thors just a few days after they were used to great effect in only a few games. The ghost nerfs took a while and quite a few high profile games were played like MVP vs Nestea on blizzcon stage
Well I don't remember the exact timings but compared to the Blord/infestor era it felt like a weekend lol
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On April 12 2016 04:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game Nerf medivacs?? no nerf to ultras??
Yeah I disagree with him. I agree with nerfing air armies (broodlords included), but nerfing everything and buffing infestors? Sounds like a boring game then. Fuck infestors they are fine as it is, if Zerg needed a buff it should be elsewhere.
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This is the most retarded thing i have ever read from blizzard.
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On April 12 2016 04:55 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:53 Charoisaur wrote:On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game Nerf medivacs?? no nerf to ultras?? Yeah I disagree with him. I agree with nerfing air armies (broodlords included), but nerfing everything and buffing infestors? Sounds like a boring game then. Fuck infestors they are fine as it is, if Zerg needed a buff it should be elsewhere.
Sounds like a boring game but then the game would not resolve around armies of death (lurkers / immortals/ liberators/ sky armies etc) and would result in the most exciting starcraft you've seen xD
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:55 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:54 Cyro wrote:Similar stuff has happened to terran tho. Remember the nerfs on ghosts and thors just a few days after they were used to great effect in only a few games. The ghost nerfs took a while and quite a few high profile games were played like MVP vs Nestea on blizzcon stage Well I don't remember the exact timings but compared to the Blord/infestor era it felt like a weekend lol
Yeah but BL+Infestor had a huge period of time where people felt "hmm.. this is probably a bit too strong, but we'll see" that was not so great in hindsight. Ghost switch came and got community agreement that it was silly and too strong soon after it was figured out
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
The latest Kespa pro feedback is that Zerg has a very low chance vs. Protoss due to changes in the meta. We also pinged a few non-Korean Protoss players regarding this, and they had a very similar sentiment.
This line is really the confusing part IMO. PvZ success has been limited - limited by players/leagues and limited by maps. This month winrates still have protoss below 50% for the 6'th or 7'th month in a row, not zerg being 40-45%. It seems like way too strong of a statement. Even if that was the case, why is a 3-10% imbalance acceptable for half a year but not for a week when there's a hint of it flipping the other way in certain circumstances?
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On April 12 2016 04:40 Exarl25 wrote:
I don't understand why PvZ can be drastically Zerg favored for months on end and the attitude is wait and see, but then the very instant it looks like Protoss are turning things around they start preparing the nerf bat. Why the unequal treatment? I have said for months that if the winrates for the matchup were reversed then the community outcry would be so strong that nerfs would have come very quickly, looks like that is true. Protoss just aren't allowed to do well.
Welcome to Blizzard, and balancing.
PvT was literally, 50/50 when they nerfed Khaydarin Amulet and gave Protoss no compensatory buffs. And of course the Protoss winrate tanked.
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On April 12 2016 04:59 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +The latest Kespa pro feedback is that Zerg has a very low chance vs. Protoss due to changes in the meta. We also pinged a few non-Korean Protoss players regarding this, and they had a very similar sentiment. This line is really the confusing part IMO. PvZ success has been limited - limited by players/leagues and limited by maps. This month winrates are somewhere around 45/55 in pro play - and that's zerg being the 55, not zerg being 40-45%. It seems like way too strong of a statement
It's really not. 45-55 winrates from what? Go4SC2 cups?
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:57 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2016 04:55 blade55555 wrote:On April 12 2016 04:53 Charoisaur wrote:On April 12 2016 04:35 Nerchio wrote:
Nerf medivacs/ immortal/ liberator/ ravager/ tempest/ carrier/ warp prism/lurker
Buff infestor
ggwp perfect game Nerf medivacs?? no nerf to ultras?? Yeah I disagree with him. I agree with nerfing air armies (broodlords included), but nerfing everything and buffing infestors? Sounds like a boring game then. Fuck infestors they are fine as it is, if Zerg needed a buff it should be elsewhere. Sounds like a boring game but then the game would not resolve around armies of death (lurkers / immortals/ liberators/ sky armies etc) and would result in the most exciting starcraft you've seen xD
Infestors. Exactly what I think of when people say the word exciting.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
It's really not
Edited that part out before you commented cause i didn't want to post without proper data backing it up
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I'm glad they seem to have forget about that silly banshee buff.
And I agree that PvZ is impossible to win vs a competent Protoss right now because immortals based composition are too strong. Problem is P players have to play phoenix (for mutas) into double robo immortals (for lurkers) and that since no other style is possible, you can't nerf it too heavily. I wish they would nerf a lot of things (let's say lurkers and maybe ultras / tempests and immortals / liberators to begin with -hey can remove invincible nydus as well) and then reconsider the state of the game.
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EPT
