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On April 10 2016 08:05 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 07:47 Diabolique wrote:On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:[quote] What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:
[quote]
Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game.
The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision.
There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier.
Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to
1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ...
2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided. Well, the last time, I did a triple post, I was banned for 2 days. I just hope, TL applies the same rules to all its users. And in your case, you either break the rules of TeamLiquid pages intentionally, or you are too stupid to read and understand them. Right? Or you are just not interested in studying the rules, as was my case. In any case, you deserve the punishment, right? Is this the same case as you are trying to make against Major? I understand your points, but do not necessarily agree with all of them. I see only one problem, that this has happened with his teammate. But there are so many reasons for not taking it so heavily (6:2. 4 hours before the close ...) With situations like that, you have to consider context. I am responding to three different people, one of which is a very lengthy post that took me some time to write, which I was writing while the others were posted. I find it easier to have discussions with multiple people if I don't have 1 megapost with 6+ quotes in it. Your situation might have been different. That's right. If the moderators feel that my actions warrant a ban, I'll take it. However, I don't believe that the situation is a good parallel. Major went out of his way to play on a different server and he ended up giving free points, which violate a tournament's qualifier. That's a pretty big deal. My using separate posts to answer multiple multi-paragraph discussions seems to me like a logical approach to the situation, and is not that big of a deal. I respect your opinion. I'm glad to see civil discourse is still an option.
Of course. I fully understand and I think, a triple post in such a lengthy discussion is reasonable when you answer to three different people. But when I was banned and had no idea in this stupid non-multiple posts policy, I was also answering to three different people. So I hope, you will not be banned as this would just stress, how stupid the rule is. But it is a rule, right? So I read in this thread some people arguing that there are rules, when you break them, you have to take the consequences.
In this case, the 1. FIRST POINT of everything was the way of communication with the player and investigation from Blizzard (none). That is bad. Seriously bad. Had they made an official statement, where they would stress the fact that this happened with his team mate and HOW DID THIS HELP HIM, people would understand it.
2. SECOND POINT is what Major did by "playing with the EU ladder" in such crucial moments. That was stupid, as well as some arguing that he needed to take medicine ... Had he said, he had a visit or needed to RUN to the toilet, nobody could say anything. This IS seriously stupid. Imagine, now, every player competing in some higher ranks, will have to shit into his pants if something similar happens to him. Or if he has a phone call. Or a visitor. That is stupid. 6:2 is stupid. 4 hours before the end is stupid. But all this is nothing compared to the lack of communication and checking before making the decision in the FIRST POINT.
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On April 10 2016 04:31 Incognoto wrote:
Not only is Blizzard's decision making horrible, but it's transparency is also really bad.
Really Blizzard I wonder why you can't just leave Starcraft alone?
Leave Starcraft alone? Great idea, just completely get rid of WCS and remove SC2 from Blizzcon! /sarcasm
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I'm with you Jealous. I hope this sets precedent for the future competitions, and players actually learn something, aka "think before you queue a game in a ladder race that's being used for something important".
And before someone comes to ask me "hey what if I wanna leave a game? I cannot do it now? huh?" Yes you can. But you will face consequences.
Oh and more importantly I hope Blizzard also learns about their limitations to do things. They're handling everything that has to do with rules pretty badly.
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On April 10 2016 08:17 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 08:05 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 07:47 Diabolique wrote:On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
[quote]
So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense.
You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic.
[quote]
Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense.
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list:
1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional.
2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb.
3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate.
In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided. Well, the last time, I did a triple post, I was banned for 2 days. I just hope, TL applies the same rules to all its users. And in your case, you either break the rules of TeamLiquid pages intentionally, or you are too stupid to read and understand them. Right? Or you are just not interested in studying the rules, as was my case. In any case, you deserve the punishment, right? Is this the same case as you are trying to make against Major? I understand your points, but do not necessarily agree with all of them. I see only one problem, that this has happened with his teammate. But there are so many reasons for not taking it so heavily (6:2. 4 hours before the close ...) With situations like that, you have to consider context. I am responding to three different people, one of which is a very lengthy post that took me some time to write, which I was writing while the others were posted. I find it easier to have discussions with multiple people if I don't have 1 megapost with 6+ quotes in it. Your situation might have been different. That's right. If the moderators feel that my actions warrant a ban, I'll take it. However, I don't believe that the situation is a good parallel. Major went out of his way to play on a different server and he ended up giving free points, which violate a tournament's qualifier. That's a pretty big deal. My using separate posts to answer multiple multi-paragraph discussions seems to me like a logical approach to the situation, and is not that big of a deal. I respect your opinion. I'm glad to see civil discourse is still an option. Of course. I fully understand and I think, a triple post in such a lengthy discussion is reasonable when you answer to three different people. But when I was banned and had no idea in this stupid non-multiple posts policy, I was also answering to three different people. So I hope, you will not be banned as this would just stress, how stupid the rule is. But it is a rule, right? So I read in this thread some people arguing that there are rules, when you break them, you have to take the consequences. In this case, the 1. FIRST POINT of everything was the way of communication with the player and investigation from Blizzard (none). That is bad. Seriously bad. Had they made an official statement, where they would stress the fact that this happened with his team mate and HOW DID THIS HELP HIM, people would understand it. 2. SECOND POINT is what Major did by "playing with the EU ladder" in such crucial moments. That was stupid, as well as some arguing that he needed to take medicine ... Had he said, he had a visit or needed to RUN to the toilet, nobody could say anything. This IS seriously stupid. Imagine, now, every player competing in some higher ranks, will have to shit into his pants if something similar happens to him. Or if he has a phone call. Or a visitor. That is stupid. 6:2 is stupid. 4 hours before the end is stupid. But all this is nothing compared to the lack of communication and checking before making the decision in the FIRST POINT.
Well, TeamLiquid also says "our house, our rules," and as a result some people get more or less leniency on such matters, and this is well-known. EDIT: Got a warning, can't complain.
Not that I was intentionally testing the waters, but I thought I acted within reason. I can't say the same thing about the original topic of this analogy.
1. As I've said before, I don't think Blizzard's actions were optimal, so I agree with you here.
2. I agree with the first part of what you said, but I do think you are overlooking other outcomes. For example, a player can pause the game and provide an explanation for the pause, and then the outcome is likely to be completely different from what we see here. You are also overlooking incident density. By his own admission, Major said that this was a problem throughout the whole day. If you have a guest at the door today, and then a phone call a week from now, and then you forgot you left your oven on another week later, I doubt the reaction would be the same (although you could f10 PP on these issues as well). As you mentioned, this is also time and location sensitive: EU ladder during qualifier's last day, the benefactor being a teammate. Therefore, even if it was 6:2 for the whole day and even if 4 hours (I don't think this is much time at all, to be honest), there are far more factors at play that separate Major from RandomGM#143 who needs to take a sudden dump during countdown. And even then, wouldn't most RandomGM in that scenario hold it for 10 seconds and F10 PP? I just think there are too many holes and circumstances that throw shade on Major's conduct.
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On April 10 2016 08:17 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 08:05 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 07:47 Diabolique wrote:On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
[quote]
So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense.
You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic.
[quote]
Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense.
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list:
1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional.
2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb.
3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate.
In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided. Well, the last time, I did a triple post, I was banned for 2 days. I just hope, TL applies the same rules to all its users. And in your case, you either break the rules of TeamLiquid pages intentionally, or you are too stupid to read and understand them. Right? Or you are just not interested in studying the rules, as was my case. In any case, you deserve the punishment, right? Is this the same case as you are trying to make against Major? I understand your points, but do not necessarily agree with all of them. I see only one problem, that this has happened with his teammate. But there are so many reasons for not taking it so heavily (6:2. 4 hours before the close ...) With situations like that, you have to consider context. I am responding to three different people, one of which is a very lengthy post that took me some time to write, which I was writing while the others were posted. I find it easier to have discussions with multiple people if I don't have 1 megapost with 6+ quotes in it. Your situation might have been different. That's right. If the moderators feel that my actions warrant a ban, I'll take it. However, I don't believe that the situation is a good parallel. Major went out of his way to play on a different server and he ended up giving free points, which violate a tournament's qualifier. That's a pretty big deal. My using separate posts to answer multiple multi-paragraph discussions seems to me like a logical approach to the situation, and is not that big of a deal. I respect your opinion. I'm glad to see civil discourse is still an option. Of course. I fully understand and I think, a triple post in such a lengthy discussion is reasonable when you answer to three different people. But when I was banned and had no idea in this stupid non-multiple posts policy, I was also answering to three different people. So I hope, you will not be banned as this would just stress, how stupid the rule is. But it is a rule, right? So I read in this thread some people arguing that there are rules, when you break them, you have to take the consequences. In this case, the 1. FIRST POINT of everything was the way of communication with the player and investigation from Blizzard (none). That is bad. Seriously bad. Had they made an official statement, where they would stress the fact that this happened with his team mate and HOW DID THIS HELP HIM, people would understand it. 2. SECOND POINT is what Major did by "playing with the EU ladder" in such crucial moments. That was stupid, as well as some arguing that he needed to take medicine ... Had he said, he had a visit or needed to RUN to the toilet, nobody could say anything. This IS seriously stupid. Imagine, now, every player competing in some higher ranks, will have to shit into his pants if something similar happens to him. Or if he has a phone call. Or a visitor. That is stupid. 6:2 is stupid. 4 hours before the end is stupid. But all this is nothing compared to the lack of communication and checking before making the decision in the FIRST POINT.
I will address your second point, as I have already done earlier in this thread:
*enter* pp *enter"-> pause game and run to the toilet.
How hard can it be, I've done this on multiple occasions and my opponents have usually been waiting for me when I get back. But what do I know, maybe Majors teammate is a total douche so he knew he would never allow a pause XD
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The only conclusion of this:
Pros stop playing ladder with accounts that are connected to you. Return to the barcodes.
I mean really, 1 left game, one lost all in? Thats Wintrading? Back in the day, when there have been ladder challenges with Warcraft III for Blizzard Events, wintrading was with dozens of wins. We are now talking about one left game and one lost all in?
But hey, the same people who commited WCS 2016... why do I wonder, please never give us "ladder challenges" on KR Server.
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On April 10 2016 08:32 Clonester wrote:
The only conclusion of this:
Pros stop playing ladder with accounts that are connected to you. Return to the barcodes.
I mean really, 1 left game, one lost all in? Thats Wintrading? Back in the day, when there have been ladder challenges with Warcraft III for Blizzard Events, wintrading was with dozens of wins. We are now talking about one left game and one lost all in?
But hey, the same people who commited WCS 2016... why do I wonder, please never give us "ladder challenges" on KR Server.
That's not the only conclusion of this. That's a side-step that would lead to more issues down the line, with barcodes being connected to players' IPs and MAC addresses and the like.
Just because it was worse before, doesn't mean that we should stick to the way things were. When the points separating qualification and top 10 is in the low double digits IIRC, then even 1 free win can impact the standings, and 1 free win can force an honest, deserving player out of the standings. It might not be as big of an affront to authority as dozens of free wins, but it cannot be overlooked.
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On April 10 2016 08:28 Silvana wrote:
I'm with you Jealous. I hope this sets precedent for the future competitions, and players actually learn something, aka "think before you queue a game in a ladder race that's being used for something important".
And before someone comes to ask me "hey what if I wanna leave a game? I cannot do it now? huh?" Yes you can. But you will face consequences.
Oh and more importantly I hope Blizzard also learns about their limitations to do things. They're handling everything that has to do with rules pretty badly.
lmao - lets not kid ourselves; these are just foreigners - whoever qualifies is going to be rekt at Blizzcon by the actual pros anyway
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This sounds completely moronic and out of proportion. Blizzard is getting worse and worse every day.
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On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided. User was warned for this post
Well if you agree their decision was likely overly hasty then we're still on the same page in a strange way. That's really what I'm trying to get at. The way they have handled this is not good.
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I don't really understand blizzard in this. They are hunting down the bad guys abusing the ladder system but don't see the flaws in it? Free win? Big deal, cut the win points from every game under 90s or sth while still taking the loss points. They can even do this after the time for qualification is run out!
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On April 10 2016 08:49 DuckloadBlackra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided. User was warned for this post Well if you agree their decision was likely overly hasty then we're still on the same page in a strange way. That's really what I'm trying to get at. The way they have handled this is not good.
in another hand, tournament was about to start, the only way to not be hasty would have been to do nothing at all and never punish Major.
+ Show Spoiler +I think we can agree that banning a player retrospectively is the worst thing you can do : he already has eliminated people, so it forces you to replay the whole thing or to let these player be eliminated in an unfair way
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lmao - lets not kid ourselves; these are just foreigners - whoever qualifies is going to be rekt at Blizzcon by the actual pros anyway
You may be more than surprised this time.
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On April 10 2016 08:39 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 08:32 Clonester wrote:
The only conclusion of this:
Pros stop playing ladder with accounts that are connected to you. Return to the barcodes.
I mean really, 1 left game, one lost all in? Thats Wintrading? Back in the day, when there have been ladder challenges with Warcraft III for Blizzard Events, wintrading was with dozens of wins. We are now talking about one left game and one lost all in?
But hey, the same people who commited WCS 2016... why do I wonder, please never give us "ladder challenges" on KR Server. That's not the only conclusion of this. That's a side-step that would lead to more issues down the line, with barcodes being connected to players' IPs and MAC addresses and the like. Just because it was worse before, doesn't mean that we should stick to the way things were. When the points separating qualification and top 10 is in the low double digits IIRC, then even 1 free win can impact the standings, and 1 free win can force an honest, deserving player out of the standings. It might not be as big of an affront to authority as dozens of free wins, but it cannot be overlooked.
1 Win (arround 10 points) changing the ranking is not a real argument, as you can never call 1 lost game wintrading, even when someone loses his game by leaving after 30 secs. There are 1 Million reasons to leave a single game, even as a pro. Phonecall by family-members or any other important person, the guy who you life with has a problem and needs your help, sudden attack of diarrhea, you just spoiled your drink on your laptop, sudden migraine attack, a spaceshuttle crashed into your hood or whatever else. It is still a ladder game, not a tournament game, even when the ladder game counts to some abstract ladder points which will qualify you for a qualifier. When you start shouting wintrading or "match fixing" after one left game in the grand master ladder, then we are on very very thin ice.
And no, you cant "just pause" for every of these reasons, as first of all, you dont want to stop your opponent from laddering by pausing for 10 minutes and other things just make you to stop playing at all.
Aslong there is no "evidence", that both players actually had contact with each other and searched for a game synch on purpose, you cant ban someone for 1 "traded" win. This is way to thin.
The answer for pros to protect their "brand" is to stop being part of these contests, not to "behave" honest and be a "deserving" player. Because this accusation can happen to any pro, everyone is sometimes in the need of leaving a game for a reason that "could be made up".
And if we start excluding players from events because of their behaviour on ladder (and as Major says, it is unlikely he is allowed to play server qualifiers), these events will be empty soon.
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On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided. User was warned for this post
and if it would have been a phone call or a spontaneous friend at the door?
Blizzard banned him without asking him for his reasons so that could have happened just as likely.
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On April 10 2016 09:07 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +lmao - lets not kid ourselves; these are just foreigners - whoever qualifies is going to be rekt at Blizzcon by the actual pros anyway You may be more than surprised this time.
Yes. Foreigners have caught up.
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Thinking of playing some ladder tomorrow morning but had a very spicy Indian for dinner... hmm...... might swerve the ladder then.... Let's play customs instead....
Whole thing seems like an utter mess, just like Major's bathroom on that fateful day.
Seriously though, I personally don't think he would cheat by throwing games, and also I know how things can come up that cause you to leave games after they've begun. Granted in hindsight you shouldn't have entered in the first place, but how are you to know every time someone is about to knock on the door, phone etc. Call of nature and feeling unwell can also be a valid reason.
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Isnt Major one of the guys from Broodwar who was caught as well doing similar things? Maphacking or something
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On April 10 2016 09:07 Kafka777 wrote:Show nested quote +lmao - lets not kid ourselves; these are just foreigners - whoever qualifies is going to be rekt at Blizzcon by the actual pros anyway You may be more than surprised this time.
Oh, I would love the surprise of them becoming legitimate contenders. The more good players, the merrier :D
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Stupid blizzard is stupid
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EPT
