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On March 29 2016 01:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 00:41 hoby2000 wrote:
I'm not going to lie to you guys... When I saw this post I thought to myself "Yeah, but he didn't play any Koreans..."
These wins to a viewer like me, mean nothing. The WCS system is dumb now because when a foreigner wins, people are celebrating ... but who did they win against?
If the weakest NBA team played in March Madness and won, this is what it would be like to me - Great, you won a tournament full of people you should be able to beat. Let me know when you actually beat someone of worth and I will champion you. But beating foreigners is still beating foreigners. The Koreans are the best and we all know that yet we pretend this means nothing?
At the end of the year, when the Koreans finally face foreigners and absolutely destroy them, these victories will mean nothing because they meant nothing to start with if the best competition can't compete. "The Koreans" is such a vague statement considering the context. The Koreans that were winning these tournaments could by no means be considered the best in the world for said accomplishment either. In fact oftentimes they were specifically known for not being the best in the world at all. To me those accomplishments in terms of "who did they beat" were less valuable and without much meaning, than knowing someone beat the entirety of the field outside of Korea (in theory).
I don't think anyone ever claimed that the Koreans winning the 3rd party tournaments were doing better than the ones winning the main Koreans events. In fact it was always controversial that some koreans made it into blizzcon largely on the back of results from tournaments outside of korea but at the very least the system actually allowed the best 16 or so players to make it to blizzcon.
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On March 29 2016 01:34 HugoBallzak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 01:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On March 29 2016 00:41 hoby2000 wrote:
I'm not going to lie to you guys... When I saw this post I thought to myself "Yeah, but he didn't play any Koreans..."
These wins to a viewer like me, mean nothing. The WCS system is dumb now because when a foreigner wins, people are celebrating ... but who did they win against?
If the weakest NBA team played in March Madness and won, this is what it would be like to me - Great, you won a tournament full of people you should be able to beat. Let me know when you actually beat someone of worth and I will champion you. But beating foreigners is still beating foreigners. The Koreans are the best and we all know that yet we pretend this means nothing?
At the end of the year, when the Koreans finally face foreigners and absolutely destroy them, these victories will mean nothing because they meant nothing to start with if the best competition can't compete. "The Koreans" is such a vague statement considering the context. The Koreans that were winning these tournaments could by no means be considered the best in the world for said accomplishment either. In fact oftentimes they were specifically known for not being the best in the world at all. To me those accomplishments in terms of "who did they beat" were less valuable and without much meaning, than knowing someone beat the entirety of the field outside of Korea (in theory). I don't think anyone ever claimed that the Koreans winning the 3rd party tournaments were doing better than the ones winning the main Koreans events. In fact it was always controversial that some koreans made it into blizzcon largely on the back of results from tournaments outside of korea but at the very least the system actually allowed the best 16 or so players to make it to blizzcon.
I understand and agree that is exactly what I'm trying to say as well. I'm not introducing a new argument by saying that. My opinion with that in mind is that these tournaments now have an actual title and arguably more meaningful prestige (again just my opinion) to it, by establishing who is the best outside of Korea, instead of being stuck in this grey area where nobody really knew what it meant.
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On March 29 2016 01:24 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 00:41 hoby2000 wrote:
I'm not going to lie to you guys... When I saw this post I thought to myself "Yeah, but he didn't play any Koreans..."
These wins to a viewer like me, mean nothing. The WCS system is dumb now because when a foreigner wins, people are celebrating ... but who did they win against?
If the weakest NBA team played in March Madness and won, this is what it would be like to me - Great, you won a tournament full of people you should be able to beat. Let me know when you actually beat someone of worth and I will champion you. But beating foreigners is still beating foreigners. The Koreans are the best and we all know that yet we pretend this means nothing?
At the end of the year, when the Koreans finally face foreigners and absolutely destroy them, these victories will mean nothing because they meant nothing to start with if the best competition can't compete. "The Koreans" is such a vague statement considering the context. The Koreans that were winning these tournaments could by no means be considered the best in the world for said accomplishment either. In fact oftentimes they were specifically known for not being the best in the world at all. To me those accomplishments in terms of "who did they beat" were less valuable and without much meaning, than knowing someone beat the entirety of the field outside of Korea (in theory). The best in the world is decided in Korea regardless of system.
Yes, the Koreans who regularly went to those tournament weren't necessarily the best, but then again we did see cj herO and other Koreans go to IEMs and such tournaments which actually made the tournament very much legit. That is not possible now, because they are forbidden to participate even if they wanted to and could pay their own flights.
What makes it even more ridiculous is that the event was played in China, and EU/NA players should be region locked from that if anything, not the almost-neighbors Koreans.
It all just kind of pisses one off, and it's all incredibly racist.
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Super happy for Harstem! Hope he will make Anaheim.
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HARSTEMMMMM!!!!!!! WOOOT Congratz on the win!!!
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It's beyond embarrassing to call this a premier event w/ any semblance of a straight face. The overall talent for the tournament (notably from the Chinese hosts) was very mediocre. The brackets all look way easier than most low level online qualifiers.
This is pretty much the exact outcome many of us feared w/ the new WCS changes. And I didn't even consider initially, the absurdity of foreigners playing WCS events in Asia.
But props to Harstem for claiming the latest welfare handout (that winner's check of $16k is nothing to sneeze at).
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On March 29 2016 11:09 Orr wrote:
It's beyond embarrassing to call this a premier event w/ any semblance of a straight face.
the promoter has the prize money. the promoter can call it whatever they want because its their show and their money.
this is a premiere event.
congratz to Harstem.
lots of promoters have done 10,000 times worse things than create an event with a weak field. Don King is a convicted murderer and books convicted rapists for his shows. How does Don King manage to do this you ask? $.
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On March 26 2016 21:38 Nayolbi wrote:
Where are my Terrans? Stop choking...
Good shit from Harstem tho, ggs.
Because protoss and zerg are to strong against terran
User was warned for this post
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On March 29 2016 01:05 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 00:41 hoby2000 wrote:
I'm not going to lie to you guys... When I saw this post I thought to myself "Yeah, but he didn't play any Koreans..."
These wins to a viewer like me, mean nothing. The WCS system is dumb now because when a foreigner wins, people are celebrating ... but who did they win against?
If the weakest NBA team played in March Madness and won, this is what it would be like to me - Great, you won a tournament full of people you should be able to beat. Let me know when you actually beat someone of worth and I will champion you. But beating foreigners is still beating foreigners. The Koreans are the best and we all know that yet we pretend this means nothing?
At the end of the year, when the Koreans finally face foreigners and absolutely destroy them, these victories will mean nothing because they meant nothing to start with if the best competition can't compete. The idea of it is that your supporting someone local. You can live in China or Europe and still cheer on your local basketball team in the local League, even if they did not face any American basketball teams.
that would make sense if the tournaments would be region-locked for specific regions, for example a tournament with only EU players or only NA players. when only 1 country is excluded from the competition it's not a local tournament.
An american for example is about as local a player for me as a korean and yet he can participate.
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yeahhhh Kevin!
I knew you could do it, my little padawan!
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I think this is not the place to bash on WCS. Harstem won and while it might not have been vs. a bunch of Koreans or Koreigners, it still was a huge win.
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On March 26 2016 21:53 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2016 21:37 DSK wrote:
Despite being defeated at two consecutive finals, you've done something the likes of Dream and soO have done in the past. Keeping pushing, you'll surely get the gold you deserve. Undisputed that Snute deserves some WCS Gold Medals, as he is one of the very best players the Circuit has to offer, but "done something the likes of Dream and soO have done" sounds like it is going way to far. Show nested quote +On March 26 2016 21:38 Nayolbi wrote:
Where are my Terrans? Stop choking...
Good shit from Harstem tho, ggs. Which terrans? Marinelord is Onlinelord. Major is Major, promissing, strong, but not bringing it on. Who else? Bunny didnt find his form in LotV yet. Uthermal was always not bad, but never in the top of foreign starcraft. I had hopes for heromarine, but he is at the moment not even semi-pro, as he is focusing on his school. I dont know how strong Happy is at the moment, but with mech weak, he looks not too strong. Kela is strong for his battle region, NA, but needs to proof himself Dayshi can have single strong runs and fail bitterly the next day. All in all, terran is the weakest race in the circuit, like it always have been outside of Korea.
Without getting a balance whine (or getting insta-banned just for asking. Maybe the reason is too obvious, that asking for it is a received like a provocation. But since the winrates, as absolute prove of balance show us the game is fairly balanced (and not yet figured out meta-wise), it cannot be balance (on a lower level then korean GM) - so what is it?), noone could ever explain me why that is the case
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On March 29 2016 20:01 boxerfred wrote:
I think this is not the place to bash on WCS. Harstem won and while it might not have been vs. a bunch of Koreans or Koreigners, it still was a huge win.
Exactly. I like what Nazgul said, the WCS Circuit finally has a meaning, we get to know who is the best outside of Korea. On that day it was Harstem, which is something he and we should celebrate!
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On March 29 2016 22:32 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 20:01 boxerfred wrote:
I think this is not the place to bash on WCS. Harstem won and while it might not have been vs. a bunch of Koreans or Koreigners, it still was a huge win. Exactly. I like what Nazgul said, the WCS Circuit finally has a meaning, we get to know who is the best outside of Korea. On that day it was Harstem, which is something he and we should celebrate!
Yep, I am glad for him. He seems such a nice guy.
Is there a Liquipedia entry to see whom he played against and some VODs maybe? Cannot find it in the OP
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On March 29 2016 22:40 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 22:32 Musicus wrote:On March 29 2016 20:01 boxerfred wrote:
I think this is not the place to bash on WCS. Harstem won and while it might not have been vs. a bunch of Koreans or Koreigners, it still was a huge win. Exactly. I like what Nazgul said, the WCS Circuit finally has a meaning, we get to know who is the best outside of Korea. On that day it was Harstem, which is something he and we should celebrate! Yep, I am glad for him. He seems such a nice guy. Is there a Liquipedia entry to see whom he played against and some VODs maybe? Cannot find it in the OP
Yep, here it is! http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gold_Series_International_2016
Edit: And here are vods https://www.twitch.tv/neotvbaoxue/profile
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On March 29 2016 22:43 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 22:40 Rollora wrote:On March 29 2016 22:32 Musicus wrote:On March 29 2016 20:01 boxerfred wrote:
I think this is not the place to bash on WCS. Harstem won and while it might not have been vs. a bunch of Koreans or Koreigners, it still was a huge win. Exactly. I like what Nazgul said, the WCS Circuit finally has a meaning, we get to know who is the best outside of Korea. On that day it was Harstem, which is something he and we should celebrate! Yep, I am glad for him. He seems such a nice guy. Is there a Liquipedia entry to see whom he played against and some VODs maybe? Cannot find it in the OP Yep, here it is! http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gold_Series_International_2016Edit: And here are vods https://www.twitch.tv/neotvbaoxue/profile
You just won my heart ♥
Didn't know it was the gold series. Confusing tournament title is confusing
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On March 29 2016 17:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 01:05 lestye wrote:On March 29 2016 00:41 hoby2000 wrote:
I'm not going to lie to you guys... When I saw this post I thought to myself "Yeah, but he didn't play any Koreans..."
These wins to a viewer like me, mean nothing. The WCS system is dumb now because when a foreigner wins, people are celebrating ... but who did they win against?
If the weakest NBA team played in March Madness and won, this is what it would be like to me - Great, you won a tournament full of people you should be able to beat. Let me know when you actually beat someone of worth and I will champion you. But beating foreigners is still beating foreigners. The Koreans are the best and we all know that yet we pretend this means nothing?
At the end of the year, when the Koreans finally face foreigners and absolutely destroy them, these victories will mean nothing because they meant nothing to start with if the best competition can't compete. The idea of it is that your supporting someone local. You can live in China or Europe and still cheer on your local basketball team in the local League, even if they did not face any American basketball teams. that would make sense if the tournaments would be region-locked for specific regions, for example a tournament with only EU players or only NA players. when only 1 country is excluded from the competition it's not a local tournament. An american for example is about as local a player for me as a korean and yet he can participate.
You have a Korean Reigion and an International region. The idea is to build up infrastructure, personality, and the like for Non-Koreans because they've been so dominant throughout the years. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that given the state of International players and Koreans.
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On March 29 2016 16:05 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2016 11:09 Orr wrote:
It's beyond embarrassing to call this a premier event w/ any semblance of a straight face. the promoter has the prize money. the promoter can call it whatever they want because its their show and their money. this is a premiere event. congratz to Harstem. lots of promoters have done 10,000 times worse things than create an event with a weak field. Don King is a convicted murderer and books convicted rapists for his shows. How does Don King manage to do this you ask? $.
Your above attempt at an analogy isn't even worth discussing. Although it's definitely one of the weirder/more troubling ones I've ever heard for anything on TL.
Did I ever state anywhere that the promoters couldn't call it whatever they want? Heck, the recent WCS Katowice (Winter Circuit Championship) billed itself as having the best 32 players in the world. Which of course got deservedly ridiculed, but that's completely within their right to do.
The problem is when Liquipedia (and TL) classify it as a premier event. Which is a complete affront to legitimate ones from the past, that had much more fair, open, and most importantly, high level competition. Not that it matters to those of us able to see through promotional material, and call things for what they are (the more invested and knowledgeable folks here). But many casual fans may be severely mislead when evaluating players and their achievements.
Money doesn't magically transform something into what it's not. Players and the level of competition do. You could have given Harstem $100k (same as Blizzcon) for winning, and that wouldn't change a thing, for the more informed here. And this tournament was far, far weaker than any Code A qualifier. And a grand total of zero, top level players were able to participate.
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Harsten, Harsten, Harsten Wuuuuuuuuu !!!! Harsten #TheYearofHarsten
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EPT
