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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 02 2016 00:25 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +- Protoss doens't have 2 basic playstyles.
Why? because Protoss has the upgrades shared for all units, and can easily jump from one branch of the tech tree to another. Right now there's a lot of dual upgrading for protoss w/ air and ground. For phoenix and carriers, +3 attack gives +60% to +300% damage to most targets depending on the level of armor upgrade so it's not something that you can ignore.
I think he meant 2 ground styles. Zerg has air upgrades too and are no mentioned.
Though I am curious which branches is Protoss jumping from and to. That's quite interesting and brave though, if I may say so! 
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
So now the Thor is in this awkward spot where really the only thing it excels at is punishing a large amount of light air.
Which the Liberator is just straight out better at
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From my limited Diamond knowledge of the game it is pretty common for TvP to flow as such:
Protoss opens Oracle. Builds a few. Protoss transitions into Phoenix. Builds a few. Then starts working more on Gateway and Gateway upgrades and also Air upgrades. Eventually transitions into more Starports to crank out Tempest to counter Liberators while also requiring Zealot/Templar to deal with the marine force. So it seems like modern Protoss is in fact a combination of units. Which is why I find it awkward when Terrans want "pure bio" or "pure mech" because the other races are being forced into a mixed composition as well.
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On March 02 2016 01:20 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +So now the Thor is in this awkward spot where really the only thing it excels at is punishing a large amount of light air. Which the Liberator is just straight out better at
In force. If you're in a pickle making 2 Thors will be a better short-term solution. Getting enough Libs to deal with mass air requires more gas. But your point is valid Thors really should not be your long-term solution to mass light air.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
When it comes to building either 4 liberators or 2 thors vs a zerg who has built some mutalisks, i've only seen terrans go for the libs recently (though that's usually supplementing an already highly mobile composition)
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I don't think I have seen a single Thor in LotV yet (gotta admit I don't watch as much as I used to tho).
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On March 02 2016 01:41 Salteador Neo wrote:
I don't think I have seen a single Thor in LotV yet (gotta admit I don't watch as much as I used to tho).
Like I said above I'm Diamond but if the Zerg has Infestors I make them. You know they're going to be going ling/bane/inf/ultra (generally cutting into Ultras for the Infestors) so you need something to deal with the ultras and Ghosts won't work because of Fungal. Most would probably say go Liberator but I have major issues actually getting the Ultras to get shot by Liberators.
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Actually I am redesigning sc2 so that it can be more fun for each race, return a lot of each races' identity and hopefully increase micro and action. I am also trying to lessen the hard counter system. I should be able to get it done by next week. Would be cool if we can get some show matches on it. The game will be played completely differently than current sc2.
The night before I publish my map, I will post the notes and what I am trying to do. Maybe avilo would like to stream some games of it and maybe have his viewers play it?
I am not going offtopic because avilo gave me an idea. Maybe we can try out one upgrade for my map on a test map for the current sc2, to see if it can work.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 02 2016 01:41 Salteador Neo wrote:
I don't think I have seen a single Thor in LotV yet (gotta admit I don't watch as much as I used to tho).
I"ve seen them in Nation wars I think. Innovation used them against ultra composition, that fight was pretty one sided(ultras lost horribly). It looks that Thors are very good vs. them.
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On March 02 2016 07:55 Bareleon wrote:
Actually I am redesigning sc2 so that it can be more fun for each race, return a lot of each races' identity and hopefully increase micro and action. I am also trying to lessen the hard counter system. I should be able to get it done by next week. Would be cool if we can get some show matches on it. The game will be played completely differently than current sc2.
The night before I publish my map, I will post the notes and what I am trying to do. Maybe avilo would like to stream some games of it and maybe have his viewers play it?
I am not going offtopic because avilo gave me an idea. Maybe we can try out one upgrade for my map on a test map for the current sc2, to see if it can work.
This is the only real way to get change to happen. Its how BW did it, and its how all games do it.
Make a better product and people will demand it.
Make a niche product and people will niche it.
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On March 02 2016 01:22 Tenks wrote:
From my limited Diamond knowledge of the game it is pretty common for TvP to flow as such:
Protoss opens Oracle. Builds a few. Protoss transitions into Phoenix. Builds a few. Then starts working more on Gateway and Gateway upgrades and also Air upgrades. Eventually transitions into more Starports to crank out Tempest to counter Liberators while also requiring Zealot/Templar to deal with the marine force. So it seems like modern Protoss is in fact a combination of units. Which is why I find it awkward when Terrans want "pure bio" or "pure mech" because the other races are being forced into a mixed composition as well.
You are complaining about "pure bio" and "pure mech" yet you are talking about a gateway heavy comp that has 0 robo units and that only works because blizzard introduced the adept (I don't see why a protoss would make zealots instead of adepts btw).
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On March 02 2016 12:37 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2016 01:22 Tenks wrote:
From my limited Diamond knowledge of the game it is pretty common for TvP to flow as such:
Protoss opens Oracle. Builds a few. Protoss transitions into Phoenix. Builds a few. Then starts working more on Gateway and Gateway upgrades and also Air upgrades. Eventually transitions into more Starports to crank out Tempest to counter Liberators while also requiring Zealot/Templar to deal with the marine force. So it seems like modern Protoss is in fact a combination of units. Which is why I find it awkward when Terrans want "pure bio" or "pure mech" because the other races are being forced into a mixed composition as well. You are complaining about "pure bio" and "pure mech" yet you are talking about a gateway heavy comp that has 0 robo units and that only works because blizzard introduced the adept (I don't see why a protoss would make zealots instead of adepts btw).
Protoss usually make zealots instead of adepts to defend a small roach runby, to snipe buildings, when the enemy is really marauder heavy (and you got charge), to defend marauder heavy drops, when the protoss is super gas starved, and... to harass scvs in the lategame?
They should probably be better against ravager allins too.
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Liberators have a pretty strong AA when maxed againt zerg and I am pretty sure that a buff of the thor AA will have an effect in mech TvP.
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Just wanted to add another thing here since you guys are giving a lot of feedback.
First off, please everyone TEST THIS OUT. Try the extension mod, play a few mech TvP/TvZ/TvTs on it.
I think the most common feedback i've gotten so far in this thread, reddit, and on stream is that a lot of people are saying it's slightly too strong and you guys are saying that thors are able to kill air units now.
THAT IS 100% THE INTENTION. The absolute intention of this upgrade is to allow thors to trade with tempests, carriers, and broodlords. I feel people are so used to seeing thors suck so badly, that when you finally see a viable mech anti-air unit, everyone is in shock that a ground unit is dealing with air counter parts.
All of the games i've played on this so far, and that i've observed between masters in TvP games - the upgrade is absolutely doing 100% what i intended it to - Protosses that decide to 100% hold down the tempest icon/carrier icon now do not automatically win the game by doing this, and the thor upgrade is strong enough that it there are some situations where P/T are dissuaded from just massing only air.
Protoss/Terran/Zerg have to play more ground oriented on this mod versus mech because if you try to go into a mass air deathball, this thor upgrade will help counter that and shut it down. THAT IS 100% THE INTENTION. I am 100% happy that people are saying this is strong versus air - it is supposed to be because having thors strong versus air does a lot of other indirect and hard to see things towards mech viability.
With that said, a lot of people also commented on the original video i put demonstrating the upgrade in action. The thors trading/fighting air, once again, is entirely intended to shift power back to a ground unit. What a lot of people didn't seem to get is that was a vacuum scenario that never would happen in a real game - BECAUSE it's 100% intended if you only mass air, for there to be a counter to that.
That is what this thor upgrade does - it finally gives a counter to mass air bullshit - massing literally 20 tempest is idiotic and bad for gameplay. Also, that vacuum scenario was entirely unrealistic because in a real game there will be a lot of immortals, archons, disruptors, collosus, etc. Another un-noted interaction in this thread is that the thors with 13 range will AUTOMATICALLY ACQUIRE AIR UNITS MORE OFTEN due to targetting priority. Which makes immortals completely trash any person that just makes "only thors."
Please have an open mind when you test this thor upgrade and mech guys. I 100% have seen mech gameplay is actually viable just by this upgrade existing in the game. It dissuades the opponent from massing only liberators/carrier/tempest/brood versus mech, and because of this alone, mech is viable because it indirectly makes mech stronger since more supply is funneled into ground units, rather than 30 vikings lategame.
The SC2 community cannot have it both ways. You cannot complain that mech is only "turtle bullshit mech" and then when a mod like this demonstrates that mech is viable through literally only 1 upgrade being added into the game...you can't then complain "this is bad because mech now can fight air on even terms and they're attacking me now."
The entire point of this initial mod was to gauge and measure just how much impact one simple upgrade can have towards mech viability. From everything i've analyzed, gotten from feedback, watched in games, and played myself...it's clear to me that this upgrade changes the game 100% for the better in terms of mech viability and would allow for healthy attacking mech rather than "turtle bullshit mech."
So please, if you want viable mech play, test out the mod and the upgrade in real games, and we can show blizzard mech is viable if they are willing to make a change like this.
Once again, this upgrade alone without even additional changes to any other units 100% makes mech playable, the reasons being:
1) Mech now can trade/fight/counter air units
2) Opponent dissuaded from massing only air, can still be effective but not so oppressive
3) Since opponent cannot spam 100% air, it means T does not lose their production. On the current live game, if someone makes any amount of air, mech production is reset to ZERO because the only production that matters is starports. It's absolutely terrible for gameplay that the 5-10 factories you've built up the entire game become useless instantly, and it's part of the reason mech has always been turtle mech. It's very obvious if all of your production is invalidated you are forced to turtle till you have your new production (starports) to fight air
4) The supply previously invested into vikings now goes towards ghosts, thors, tanks, any ground units. It makes mech able to be on the map since intrinsically you now have more supply available to fight with, whereas vikings are absolutely terrible for fighting with and promote "turtle air bullshit" types of gameplay.
Please guys, really try out mech games on this map and provide more feedback.
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This is like way overboard, isn't Carriers supposed to be the counter to powerful Mech? Combine this with Widow Mines vs the Interceptors, I don't think much can stop this.
I think the upgrade instead should be the Goliath campaign/co-op upgrade that makes it possible for the unit to attack with it's air attack and ground attack at the same time. It would be way stronger overall and would eliminate the annoying situations where you catch your Thor shooting and dealing no damage to a Viper instead of the Roach standing right on top of it.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 02 2016 20:16 ejozl wrote:
This is like way overboard, isn't Carriers supposed to be the counter to powerful Mech? Combine this with Widow Mines vs the Interceptors, I don't think much can stop this.
I think the upgrade instead should be the Goliath campaign/co-op upgrade that makes it possible for the unit to attack with it's air attack and ground attack at the same time. It would be way stronger overall and would eliminate the annoying situations where you catch your Thor shooting and dealing no damage to a Viper instead of the Roach standing right on top of it.
With this we return to the hard counter of immortals. Which is the most stupid thing ever. Hard counters, yay!
Also with this upgrade is thor the biggest hard counter in the game. Now that's the proper WTF moment.
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On March 02 2016 20:16 ejozl wrote:
This is like way overboard, isn't Carriers supposed to be the counter to powerful Mech? Combine this with Widow Mines vs the Interceptors, I don't think much can stop this.
I think the upgrade instead should be the Goliath campaign/co-op upgrade that makes it possible for the unit to attack with it's air attack and ground attack at the same time. It would be way stronger overall and would eliminate the annoying situations where you catch your Thor shooting and dealing no damage to a Viper instead of the Roach standing right on top of it.
Carriers and tempest still do counter mech quite a bit. But they are now not an automatic win, and the mech Terran is not forced to turtle into 5 starports to fight versus the air. If a player on this mod tries to make only 100% carrier/tempest, they'll find it won't work as well as on the live version of the game (once again, 100% intended by design).
In this mod, try out some games on it and you'll find most of the games are more aggressive mech, and action across the map because mech Terran can now go past 5 factories with this thor upgrade in the game. Your 5-10 factories now are not completely invalidated due to air units, which has always been a huge reason why mech has not been viable.
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On March 02 2016 20:36 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2016 20:16 ejozl wrote:
This is like way overboard, isn't Carriers supposed to be the counter to powerful Mech? Combine this with Widow Mines vs the Interceptors, I don't think much can stop this.
I think the upgrade instead should be the Goliath campaign/co-op upgrade that makes it possible for the unit to attack with it's air attack and ground attack at the same time. It would be way stronger overall and would eliminate the annoying situations where you catch your Thor shooting and dealing no damage to a Viper instead of the Roach standing right on top of it. With this we return to the hard counter of immortals. Which is the most stupid thing ever. Hard counters, yay! Also with this upgrade is thor the biggest hard counter in the game. Now that's the proper WTF moment.
You can still make mass tempest/carrier on this mod and it's still really incredibly strong versus mech. For some reason i've seen a bunch of people post here under the assumption you no longer can build these units which is not the case.
I personally played a few off race P vs T mech on the mod, and i was still able to go for mass tempest/carriers. The difference is, the mech Terran opponent's i was playing vs actually were attacking me across the map via including thors/mines in their comp instead of being forced to sit in their base and do nothing until they have 30 vikings.
You have to make a lot more immortals/ground now instead of 100% tempest and carriers. Once again, completely intentional by design.
It allows the mech Terran to utilize their factories rather than have to reset their production to zero since only starports matter on the live game vs air.
It also opens up about 20-40 supply for the mech Terran since vikings are not 100% necessary to counter air, which is a HUGE indirect buff to mech. That is probably the biggest impact this upgrade has on the game that i've noticed and that you may notice if you play 2-3 games of mech vs P on it.
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I'm going to specifically respond to this part, because I think that is the core argument you keep on bringing in favor of your idea:
I think the most common feedback i've gotten so far in this thread, reddit, and on stream is that a lot of people are saying it's slightly too strong and you guys are saying that thors are able to kill air units now.
THAT IS 100% THE INTENTION. The absolute intention of this upgrade is to allow thors to trade with tempests, carriers, and broodlords. I feel people are so used to seeing thors suck so badly, that when you finally see a viable mech anti-air unit, everyone is in shock that a ground unit is dealing with air counter parts.
- They don't "trade". Those Thors are extreme hardcounters to anything that flies, maybe except for the Tempest. That of course can be tuned, but then you'll probably have to except that you need to make vikings again against Tempests or Carriers or Broodlords. Which seems to be exactly what you want to avoid.
- Thors don't have a lot of counters on the ground in TvZ. If you take away the broodlord, there is nothing that really beats the Thor supply for supply, hence, all you need to do is turtle into a lot of Thors. Once you reach them with a tiny bit of support, nothing zerg can beat it anymore. (you can try that any day in a unit tester; if you find something different, let me know; but that is at least my state of knowledge, and I'm doing those unit tests A LOT)
- The Thor in general has a very strong antiground attack. You keep on talking about the Goliath in your streams, but the Thor is not like that. It can defend itself rather well against a lot of ground units in the game. You don't get punished if you overcommit to Thors, you'd have to be a full retard and keep on massing Thors blindly for a long time so that you could get punished by a player that only made very few air units.
- The whole premise that there should be a unit that counters all air is wrong. What is it about air that you should just be able to shut it down hardcore? It's your personal vision of the game! I for my part think that every unit should be viable in realistic scenarios. Making 5 Broodlords, just so that your opponent gets a massive advantage if he makes 5 Thors is not a realistic scenario, no player is dumb enough to play broodlords then. In such an enviroment the unit is just not playable.
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Just chiming in to say something about why there are more opponents than proponents of a thor buff (or mech buff or whatever buff you wanna call it).
The main reason is loss aversion. Losing feels worse than winning feels good.
Say your net worth is $10.000. Giving away $100 feels worse than receiving $100 feels good.
But it goes even deeper than that. Not only do you want to avoid losses, you specifically want to avoid large losses. Losing your whole net worth of $10.000 feels many many many times worse than receiving another $10.000 on top of it feels good. In fact it doesn't just feel worse, it is factually far worse to lose your net worth than it is good to double it up (regardless of what your net worth is).
So the conclusion is that small losses feel worse than they actually are, while small winnings feel less good than they actually are. This explains why more people are pushing against the proposed changes.
Even assuming that the changes are good, regardless of that more people will be against them. That's just our human nature.
My point is, don't get your panties up in a twist. Every concession always feels worse than it is in reality.
I'm not siding with anyone, just trying to add some perspective to the situation.
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EPT
