Hi guys, avilo here. For the longest time i have written countless multiple page long posts, made countless videos, complained aimlessly too much (admittedly) about how mech could use a few easy tweaks and it could become viable without being OP.
So...rather than complaining for the next 5 yrs or however long SC2 is alive (hopefully it goes on past that) i decided to take the initiative here, and started up a mini-project of sorts with @nice_username (you may know him for those cool "how it looks vs how it feels" SC2 videos often posted on reddit, his channel is here: https://www.youtube.com/user/niceytchannel/feed
I have come up with a bunch of changes that he will be implementing into an extension mod for SC2, most of them aimed at addressing turtle bullshit and mass air issues across all 3 races.
For this first preview/test, what we've done is added an upgrade into the game for the thor called the Hyperballistic Missile (sounds badass).
-------------------------------------------------------- Thor Hyperballistic Missile: Increases Thor Javelin Missle Launcher splash by .25. Increases Thor Javelin Missle Launcher range by 3. Increases Thor anti-air damage by +6 (12 flat, vs light unaffected).
Requirements: Researched from Factory Tech Lab Fusion Core ---------------------------------------------------------
How did i come up with this as one initial way to help address mech AA? You'll notice it's very similar in design to the SC1 goliath charon booster upgrade.
In SC1 vanilla, Terran pretty much just was dead versus guardians/mass carriers...quite similar to SC2 atm. The Charon Booster upgrade aka goliath range was added in Brood War...and actually made goliaths able to counter carriers/guardians and air in general much better. This one upgrade alone changed a hell of a lot of TvP, without it TvP may not have even been playable at all.
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
Because only starport units can counter air units, what ends up happening every single mech game at any decent level...a Terran that opts into mech is forced to build mostly mass vikings, liberators, ravens...to beat air. What does that mean? It means if you go past 5 factories, you are completely screwed because you need mass starports.
Every factory you have built in the game becomes 100% obsolete which makes no sense. But it's intrinsically why mech has been utterly bad for the longest time.
Now imagine a game where you're playing mech, and you scan your opponent's stargate/broodlord transition. And you happen to be playing mech.
This thor upgrade is meant to come into play allowing a meching Terran to switch all of their production over to thors, which of course, just by this upgrade existing, means a meching Terran can go past 5 factories now to deal with air transitions, allowing a more aggressive mech game, rather than being forced to turtle on your half of the map until you have 30 vikings.
I know that is a lot to read and let sink in, but that is the theory behind adding this one upgrade into SC2 for the thor. It changes the interaction between thors and air but changes so much more with game just by existing in the game.
Here is a video demonstrating 3/3 thors versus 3/3 carriers, just as an extreme example to show the effect of the upgrade.
I have already done a few test games versus a masters Protoss with this upgrade in the game, but obviously that does not mean much, and i'd rather not give my opinion here yet (tho i guess you get it in the video heuheu) because i want people to form their own after testing this upgrade.
I am planning to host a few showmatches with this upgrade in the game, as well as some when the final mod is finished.
The goal of this entire thing is to show Blizzard how much impact a tiny change can have on the strategic diversity of SC2, and that it is possible to make mech a viable strategy without breaking the rest of the game.
I'm hoping to get a lot of feedback on the upgrade that i can collect up, whether it's replays, VODS, etc. and take that data and present it to Blizzard in the hopes that they can implement something like this thor upgrade into the live game.
I hope this is a constructive way to help improve SC2 as a game, and as an SC2 community member to lend my mech expertise for testing a change like this and getting data on it to blizzard, hopefully getting them to implement it if it is good.
Please let me know what you think of the design of the Thor Hyperballistic Missile upgrade and test it out yourself on battle.net. Test it by creating a custom game on any map, and "Create with Mod" search for "Hyperballistic Missile" and it will bring up the mod and test away.
If you're a masters/GM/progamer level player, PM me directly on TL/twitch/twitter and please give your feedback via text, and/or replays.
On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote: Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP.
Just lings counter Thors as well. Does that mean lings are OP?
Edit: Avilo, i have seen both of your matches vs the toss player and i think it would be good to post both replays for the people to see mass thors doesnt work. just a few immortals with the skyarmy and all your Thors were gone in a few seconds.
Personally i like it, but that is being said from someone who only saw the 2 games vs toss. Dont know how it will be vs another terran. But thats the beauty of it, the community can test it and see how it goes.
On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote: Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP.
A) that feedback is not useful, and you're incorrect. The video is a vacuum scenario, 99% of games you will never have only thors versus only carriers, i made that video specifically to show you how the upgrade changes the thor.
B) the upgrade is meant to make thors powerful versus air, because mech currently has no mech AA unit.
I'd appreciate if you test playing against it or with it in an actual game. Trust me, after a few games (i've done a few already) it's not anywhere near OP, and if anything you'll probably think tempests are still too good regardless of this new upgrade :D (trust me lol).
On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote: Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP.
A) that feedback is not useful, and you're incorrect. The video is a vacuum scenario, 99% of games you will never have only thors versus only carriers, i made that video specifically to show you how the upgrade changes the thor.
B) the upgrade is meant to make thors powerful versus air, because mech currently has no mech AA unit.
I'd appreciate if you test playing against it or with it in an actual game. Trust me, after a few games (i've done a few already) it's not anywhere near OP, and if anything you'll probably think tempests are still too good regardless of this new upgrade :D (trust me lol).
You fail to address balance though. Thors are built twice faster than carriers if Liquipedia is correct. And you have a lot of thors left after fight. How is this video supposed to show balance? Yes, it lets thors be a strong AA unit but it fails to make it balanced. This was 36 thors vs 32 carriers game.
Edit: Switched numbers by mistake. 36 thors vs 32 carriers.
The idea is good but the upgrade is way to strong. Nobody would ever make air units vs mech again and if you can't make air units how are you gonna beat a terran who sits behind planetary/turret rings with mass tanks?
On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote: Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP.
A) that feedback is not useful, and you're incorrect. The video is a vacuum scenario, 99% of games you will never have only thors versus only carriers, i made that video specifically to show you how the upgrade changes the thor.
B) the upgrade is meant to make thors powerful versus air, because mech currently has no mech AA unit.
I'd appreciate if you test playing against it or with it in an actual game. Trust me, after a few games (i've done a few already) it's not anywhere near OP, and if anything you'll probably think tempests are still too good regardless of this new upgrade :D (trust me lol).
You fail to address balance though. Thors are built twice faster than carriers if Liquipedia is correct. And you have a lot of thors left after fight. How is this video supposed to show balance? Yes, it lets thors be a strong AA unit but it fails to make it balanced. This was 32 thors vs 36 carriers game.
I can only imagine how fast a corrupter or mutalisk attack would be completely pulverized by this upgrade he currently has.
On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote: Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP.
A) that feedback is not useful, and you're incorrect. The video is a vacuum scenario, 99% of games you will never have only thors versus only carriers, i made that video specifically to show you how the upgrade changes the thor.
B) the upgrade is meant to make thors powerful versus air, because mech currently has no mech AA unit.
I'd appreciate if you test playing against it or with it in an actual game. Trust me, after a few games (i've done a few already) it's not anywhere near OP, and if anything you'll probably think tempests are still too good regardless of this new upgrade :D (trust me lol).
You fail to address balance though. Thors are built twice faster than carriers if Liquipedia is correct. And you have a lot of thors left after fight. How is this video supposed to show balance? Yes, it lets thors be a strong AA unit but it fails to make it balanced. This was 32 thors vs 36 carriers game.
That's perfectly fine. SC2 is meant to be a ground versus ground action packed game, not a game where both players sit and spam a deathball of air units. I don't think it's a problem that carriers take long to build considering their strength.
Also re-read my last post, the video is not meant to show anything other than a vacuum scenario of what the upgrade does to the thor. Test it in a real game, it's much different when there's other units involved such as immortals, high templar, etc.
Liberators+Vikings+Cyclones+Thors+Turrets.... Mech is extremely viable as it is now; I'm curious what leads you to believe it's not. If I miss micro my air units just once vs Terran I lose half my army to splash damage.
On March 01 2016 07:05 Charoisaur wrote: The idea is good but the upgrade is way to strong. Nobody would ever make air units vs mech again and if you can't make air units how are you gonna beat a terran who sits behind planetary/turret rings with mass tanks?
Nobody should make mass air period, regardless of whether the opponent is meching. The counter to turtle tank should be 1) take whole map, starting with whatever you can on the Terran's side, 2) harass him every time he tries to move out, threatening especially with Nydus/Warp In. Don't forget that Corrosive Bile/Blinding Cloud/Abduct still exist.
On March 01 2016 07:05 Charoisaur wrote: The idea is good but the upgrade is way to strong. Nobody would ever make air units vs mech again and if you can't make air units how are you gonna beat a terran who sits behind planetary/turret rings with mass tanks?
Nobody should make mass air period, regardless of whether the opponent is meching. The counter to turtle tank should be 1) take whole map, starting with whatever you can on the Terran's side, 2) harass him every time he tries to move out, threatening especially with Nydus/Warp In. Don't forget that Corrosive Bile/Blinding Cloud/Abduct still exist.
That's not possible with 3 base cap and we both know it. Also against a Terran who has bazillion turrets is warping kinda impossible. The problem isn't mech per se, but turtling players who abuse mech.
So, how is such a Thorbased Mech style supposed to be beaten by Zerg? The previous approaches were old Swarm Hosts (removed from the game) or Broodlords (the upgrade deals with that). I don't see how you would beat that "once Mech gets there".
Upgrade looks like a good idea but too strong - a very strong counter to capital ships and with that kind of power and some AOE, probably a bigger counter to other air units.
Fighting on more even ground is fair, killing 32 carriers at a loss of 13 thors doesn't seem so fair (Is it more? You say 32 thors but only have 28 in the control group, 15 of those 28 survive)
On March 01 2016 07:45 Big J wrote: So, how is such a Thorbased Mech style supposed to be beaten by Zerg? The previous approaches were old Swarm Hosts (removed from the game) or Broodlords (the upgrade deals with that). I don't see how you would beat that "once Mech gets there".
On March 01 2016 07:05 Charoisaur wrote: The idea is good but the upgrade is way to strong. Nobody would ever make air units vs mech again and if you can't make air units how are you gonna beat a terran who sits behind planetary/turret rings with mass tanks?
Nobody should make mass air period, regardless of whether the opponent is meching. The counter to turtle tank should be 1) take whole map, starting with whatever you can on the Terran's side, 2) harass him every time he tries to move out, threatening especially with Nydus/Warp In. Don't forget that Corrosive Bile/Blinding Cloud/Abduct still exist.
That's not possible with 3 base cap and we both know it. Also against a Terran who has bazillion turrets is warping kinda impossible. The problem isn't mech per se, but turtling players who abuse mech.
Exactly. A sky transition HAS to be viable vs mech or there would be no way to punish a turtling mech player. However it shouldn't be the strategy from the beginning vs a mech player but just a finishing move when you're way ahead so terran is forced to threaten the other players economy to prevent that from happening. The problem right now is that vs mech you can mass air units from the beginning because 40 supply of air units beat like 120 supply of mech units which makes it impossible for mech to punish an air transition.
Mech AA should be buffed but not to the point where a sky transition isn't longer possible vs mech.
On March 01 2016 07:45 Big J wrote: So, how is such a Thorbased Mech style supposed to be beaten by Zerg? The previous approaches were old Swarm Hosts (removed from the game) or Broodlords (the upgrade deals with that). I don't see how you would beat that "once Mech gets there".
Vipers are a good start...
IIRC this upgrade gives Thor 13 range(10+3). Not sure how vipers would help, they would be obliterated before they could do anything at all because you cannot deny a scan.
On March 01 2016 07:05 Charoisaur wrote: The idea is good but the upgrade is way to strong. Nobody would ever make air units vs mech again and if you can't make air units how are you gonna beat a terran who sits behind planetary/turret rings with mass tanks?
Nobody should make mass air period, regardless of whether the opponent is meching. The counter to turtle tank should be 1) take whole map, starting with whatever you can on the Terran's side, 2) harass him every time he tries to move out, threatening especially with Nydus/Warp In. Don't forget that Corrosive Bile/Blinding Cloud/Abduct still exist.
That's not possible with 3 base cap and we both know it. Also against a Terran who has bazillion turrets is warping kinda impossible. The problem isn't mech per se, but turtling players who abuse mech.
Exactly. A sky transition HAS to be viable vs mech or there would be no way to punish a turtling mech player. However it shouldn't be the strategy from the beginning vs a mech player but just a finishing move when you're way ahead so terran is forced to threaten the other players economy to prevent that from happening. The problem right now is that vs mech you can mass air units from the beginning because 40 supply of air units beat like 120 supply of mech units which makes it impossible for mech to punish an air transition.
Mech AA should be buffed but not to the point where a sky transition isn't longer possible vs mech.
Part of the problem is MULE. Terran mech player can go in the final stages of the game into "mass OC" mode having 180 - 190 supply army. Which is so much cool and stuff, but if there is something to mine still mech has huge advantage. There were few games where MULEs literally saved players from loss. These stages happened in the past and can happen again(we saw even the big ol' kamikaze SCVs because I have many OCs move too in pro games).
Mech has many problems besides just lack of good AA and siege tank being weak
EPT
