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On March 04 2016 00:19 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +
To address your points:
a) carriers are still viable and can trade versus thors.
The thors trade like 3:1 cost efficiently in your video
Video is a scenario that
a) will never happen in a real game
b) the upgrade is designed 100% with the intention to make there be a counter to someone who makes 100% carrier/tempest. On the live game, if i tested that vacuum scenario i bet 95% of the thors would have died, with like 2 dead carriers lol
Once again, mech is viable/healthier if there's a good counter to air units in the game, this mod has already proven that 100%. I don't think people shoud be ok with the fact on the live game P can make 100% only carrier/tempest and autowin versus someone going mech.
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Avilo I like what you are trying to do but I think you love SC2 too much for your own good. It doesnt seem like the game suits your vision of RTS yet there is games that do : BW and Forged Alliance. Why don't you play them too?
You want a game where you can attack with anything? You want a game with soft counters? You want a game where multi pronged aggression is necessary to win? You want a game where there is no cheeses or bullshit autowin strategies? SC2 isn't the way man, and you know it
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Avilos idea is great and it woeld make the game better. SC 2 has a Problem that Tier 3 air Units are way to strong! And stop argueing ohh my robo Units cant attack air thats a complete different story. Mech Needs to be viable to make this game better! An Blizzard will do it you will see! Tech 3 air is a Problem for everey race and there Need to be changes!
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avilo still trying to mech it happen
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On March 03 2016 23:36 DinoMight wrote:
People always ask for a lot of things to make mech viable. Like this ridiculous Thor air upgrade. Most of the time what they ask for is simply OP. How the fuck do you kill mass Thor if Carriers can't even trade against them? Yeah Immortals are good but with some Hellions as a meat shield they die incredibly fast. Remember that LotV Immortals take WAAAAAYYYYY more damage from Thors than they used to in HotS because the passive shield is gone.
Then you ask, well, how does one beat this ludicrous army that has literally everything it needs from one production structure? And the answer is always "mech is slow, you have to use your mobility to expose them where they're vulnerable like in BW."
Except in BW there were no fucking planetary fortresses.
And Protoss late game armies were far more mobile than they are now, with Arbiters able to recall ALL units offensively, not just defensively.
i agree.
i agree with Avilo that Terran air is too strong and terran ground is too weak.
i want the Thor and Tank to receive moderate damage buffs while Terran air is nerfed to even things out. Exactly how Air is nerfed i'm not sure. Your suggestion in the thread about the Medivac boost is 1 good way to nerf Terran air.
if none of the stuff i'm asking for happens i'm still happy with the game and having lots of fun. My requests are more like a "nice to have" request.
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LUL..... not just terran,all 3 races have very weak ground to air options....
Blizzard actually as a CHANCE in the beta.But i still wonder why they choosed liberator and viper as an option and in result lead into mass air vs mass air.
They actually has a CHANCE......
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On March 04 2016 09:43 seemsgood wrote:
LUL..... not just terran,all 3 races have very weak ground to air options....
Blizzard actually as a CHANCE in the beta.But i still wonder why they choosed liberator and viper as an option and in result lead into mass air vs mass air.
They actually has a CHANCE......
Air in BW was actually much more powerful than ground from a purely unit test map perspective. The reason it wasn't a problem was because of control limits.
Ever had 160 supply of Wraiths clump into one point to fight any ground composition you could think of? The ground army dies mercilessly. This is because unit clumping and more spread out armies prevented ground units from properly shooting at air units.
But have you ever tried to clump 160 supply worth of wraiths in BW? Its relatively simple. You have all seven control groups follow 1 wraith that you set on patrol, then you move command the primary scout in order to "drag" the Wraiths in a central point and then use one of your control groups to kill the primary wraith in order to cause the wraith groups to go into attack mode all at the same time. The concentrated fire wipes out 1/3 of the ground army before the second shots are fired, and the rest of the ground forces melt without much of a fight.
No one would do that outside of a unit test map or a UMS. However, air control is so easy in SC2 that should you want to make a pure carrier army, you could easily focus fire while never having to manually rebuild each interceptor.
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No, not just Thors. But Mass Thors doesn't really have a ground hardcounter from zerg and with this upgrade it becomes a hardcounter to all air units from zerg. Add to that that a mixture of tanks and hellbats hardcounters all ground units from zerg in the lategame. Combined that means, early on you still have the same game of roach/ravager and zerglings and mutas that potentially fuck up Mech. But once you get to the lategame, once you have a stable base composition of hellbat/tank/thor up, you basically cannot make a wrong composition anymore. Thors are so good vs Zerg air and still decent vs ground that at this point you can crazy overcommit to them, even if the opponent doesn't make any air. And once you have done that? Well, you can still go for your lategame air units.
Zerg definately has options agaisn't mass Thors in late game even with this upgrade. Broodlords/Corruptors/Vipers would still dominate sky and Ultras/Cracklings/Hydras on ground... This upgrade would only affect fights agaisn't Broodlords/Corruptors anyway so I dont see how the whole TvZ mech thing would be that different from currently. Add to this a Liberator nerf and I don't see how this strat would be unbeatable...
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Too many theorycrafting not enough actual testing. Blizzard should definitely include this change in the next PTR test map.
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On March 04 2016 10:36 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 09:43 seemsgood wrote:
LUL..... not just terran,all 3 races have very weak ground to air options....
Blizzard actually as a CHANCE in the beta.But i still wonder why they choosed liberator and viper as an option and in result lead into mass air vs mass air.
They actually has a CHANCE...... Air in BW was actually much more powerful than ground from a purely unit test map perspective. The reason it wasn't a problem was because of control limits. Ever had 160 supply of Wraiths clump into one point to fight any ground composition you could think of? The ground army dies mercilessly. This is because unit clumping and more spread out armies prevented ground units from properly shooting at air units. But have you ever tried to clump 160 supply worth of wraiths in BW? Its relatively simple. You have all seven control groups follow 1 wraith that you set on patrol, then you move command the primary scout in order to "drag" the Wraiths in a central point and then use one of your control groups to kill the primary wraith in order to cause the wraith groups to go into attack mode all at the same time. The concentrated fire wipes out 1/3 of the ground army before the second shots are fired, and the rest of the ground forces melt without much of a fight. No one would do that outside of a unit test map or a UMS. However, air control is so easy in SC2 that should you want to make a pure carrier army, you could easily focus fire while never having to manually rebuild each interceptor.
And suddenly BW is a balance game because "technology isn't there yet".
Right now beside liberator each race has problem agains capital unit than G2A unit because.... those units can only attack air...
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On March 04 2016 10:36 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 09:43 seemsgood wrote:
LUL..... not just terran,all 3 races have very weak ground to air options....
Blizzard actually as a CHANCE in the beta.But i still wonder why they choosed liberator and viper as an option and in result lead into mass air vs mass air.
They actually has a CHANCE...... Air in BW was actually much more powerful than ground from a purely unit test map perspective. The reason it wasn't a problem was because of control limits. Ever had 160 supply of Wraiths clump into one point to fight any ground composition you could think of? The ground army dies mercilessly. This is because unit clumping and more spread out armies prevented ground units from properly shooting at air units. But have you ever tried to clump 160 supply worth of wraiths in BW? Its relatively simple. You have all seven control groups follow 1 wraith that you set on patrol, then you move command the primary scout in order to "drag" the Wraiths in a central point and then use one of your control groups to kill the primary wraith in order to cause the wraith groups to go into attack mode all at the same time. The concentrated fire wipes out 1/3 of the ground army before the second shots are fired, and the rest of the ground forces melt without much of a fight. No one would do that outside of a unit test map or a UMS. However, air control is so easy in SC2 that should you want to make a pure carrier army, you could easily focus fire while never having to manually rebuild each interceptor.
First, because Wraiths would overkill things, the first volley of shots would not kill that many units, because the Wraiths all being in the same place would cause them to target more or less the same units. Second, BW also had substantially stronger options for making clumping that many Wraiths a terrible idea. One Stasis can totally disable the entire army for long enough that the game is basically over. They could fly past some Corsairs or Archons cloaked by an Arbiter. A couple of well placed Psi storms has a similar effect. The entire Wraith stack could end up attacking a couple of Hydralisks under Dark Swarm while Plague cuts them all to 1 HP. Ensnare, while not quite as good, could still render the Wraiths substantially less threatening.
Terran has the most problems dealing with a giant Wraith stack in BW because of their limited splash options. Both Zerg and Protoss (especially Protoss) had a variety of options to make a player massively regret stacking all of their supply into the smallest space possible. Terran's only option for Terran and Protoss air was accumulating Valkyries, but hey, it only took at most 18 supply of Valkyries (depending on upgrades) to insta-gib an 160 supply of Wraiths stacked in one place.
Zerg air, of course, just required moderately effective Irradiate cloning from Terran. Protoss could flatten Zerg air with a combination of Maelstrom and Psi Storm or Archons. Corsairs and Valkyries were also valid options. Zerg in general had the most problem dealing with mass air because they didn't have anti-air splash that could kill units, but Dark Swarm and Plague made any sort of mass-air offensive against Zerg a complete non-starter.
Anyway, the moral of this story is that the mobile air units in BW could technically function similarly to mass Mutalisks against Protoss in HotS, but every race had tools for dealing with masses of those units that was superior to Parasitic Bomb, and (except for Zerg) substantially more accessible.
P.S. You specified Ground armies only. For Zerg, that's Defilers and Hydralisks, which with effective spell use will trade well. Protoss can definitely slaughter the Wraiths with Psi Storm, Dragoons, and Archons. Depending on the Psi Storms and whether any Archons get some hits in, this could go really well for Protoss. For Terran, 160 supply of range-upgraded Goliaths would probably manage an even trade at worse, although I pity the player trying to corral them effectively. But that's kind of stupid, because no Terran player would see their opponent massing Wraiths (and they would see it, because in TvT there's enough scans going around that both players basically have map-hacks) and not start building Valkyries.
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On March 04 2016 10:36 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 09:43 seemsgood wrote:
LUL..... not just terran,all 3 races have very weak ground to air options....
Blizzard actually as a CHANCE in the beta.But i still wonder why they choosed liberator and viper as an option and in result lead into mass air vs mass air.
They actually has a CHANCE...... Air in BW was actually much more powerful than ground from a purely unit test map perspective. The reason it wasn't a problem was because of control limits. Ever had 160 supply of Wraiths clump into one point to fight any ground composition you could think of? The ground army dies mercilessly. This is because unit clumping and more spread out armies prevented ground units from properly shooting at air units. But have you ever tried to clump 160 supply worth of wraiths in BW? Its relatively simple. You have all seven control groups follow 1 wraith that you set on patrol, then you move command the primary scout in order to "drag" the Wraiths in a central point and then use one of your control groups to kill the primary wraith in order to cause the wraith groups to go into attack mode all at the same time. The concentrated fire wipes out 1/3 of the ground army before the second shots are fired, and the rest of the ground forces melt without much of a fight. No one would do that outside of a unit test map or a UMS. However, air control is so easy in SC2 that should you want to make a pure carrier army, you could easily focus fire while never having to manually rebuild each interceptor.
Nobody would make 160 supply of wraiths because one plague or storm would deal with those instantly, even if you could control them all simultaneously. Goliaths would most likely deal with them as well. Perhaps you could make a video showcasing this air absurdness because I'm quite skeptical of believing wraiths would be able to kill a similar supply of ground army such as dragoons with range, hydralisks with range, goliaths or even marines for that matter.
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Back to topic pls.
It's 2016 !
Broodwar is for the aficionados. Also Trump might be president and Leo got an oscar. So since everything is possible now...avilo made a good contribution.
If you DONT play SC2 with the intent of grinding through BOs and "make that specific thing" but you play it for fun and more freestyle, you stumble across MECH. Its fun. You can play sc2 for fun. Not like the korean BO-Roboter you want to become.
You have to face that some styles will never work, and that the reason for standard play is...well its the most likely one to win you the game if you are indeed the better player.
But if you dick around, and get into games where your opponennt also just dicks around, or even if you JUST wanted to play it standard but the game got beyond that...you find yourself in a position where protoss air is fucking IMBA.
The problem, and now here is Avilos Point, is that Protoss Air, in it self, is completly self supporting.
Pure Carriers and any mixture of Tempest and Carriers does not need a ground army, at max some templurs. Also every Terran ground unit (and the PRODUCTION !) is useless beyond that point where protoss can actually, after a trade make Carriers from 4+ Stargates.
Even 200 Marines cant fight Carriers + Templar.
Terran has to spam Starports once Stargates+FleetBacon is detected. At least 6. And you have to micro your ass out to get your liberators to 1-shot the interceptors and get out of range again, while protoss uses "a" and "r"...or mouse only.
Raven is useless against Carrier, Liberators and BC get killed by Tempests, Vikings die like fly once in the cloud of interceptors, that can be spammed by press of a button.
On equal bases, and equal "Units lost" Protoss will win with Air. No matter what you do, no matter how good your micro is.
TL;DR:
Once protoss makes carriers, all your ground army, all barracks, and all Factories, and all ground upgrades are worthless.
While on the other hands GATEWAYS and shield upgrades are pretty neat. They make templars and archons and maybe to finish Stalkers....all if wich are pretty good in killing Terran air units or MassMarines
The THOR:
Enabeling the Thor to actually "Beat Tier3 Air" was something Lizard thought about (.rm -r Singletarget mode) !
The problem however microwise was that
a) Thors shoot super slow
b) thors move super slow
c) you want individual thors to shoot specific BL/Carrier whatever which takes to long to target.
(Focus fire will result in overkill, so some thors dont shoot)
Resulting in thors doing nothing, targeting winterceptors uselessly, not 1-shotting them either or get stuck on broodlings.
I get LOTV does not want you to play clownish. It wants you, more than ever, to make more stuff than your opponent and roll him over.
For Terran it's Kas-Macro and MMM and boom you are in Masters. Not strategy needed.
Avilos change wont make the thor OP. But it will cause all races to actually keep making ground units or lose. Thats good !
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I'll say it again - you can't make the Thor as good vs air while keeping it decent vs ground. Goliath sucked vs ground. You could exploit it vs mech, because you could make more ground units if there was a lot of them and win.
It forced you to scout and respond to mech composition. If you did, and 5 initial tanks didn't scare you into mass muta, you could win with hydraling.
And if there was too many tanks but not enough goliaths, mutaling could win the day.
Thor cannot be cost efficient vs both air and ground.
With this change and no corresponding nerd to ground dps, there is no reason not to make Thor + support only. Hellbats, tanks and 50% of Thor in the army would most likely wreck everything protoss or zerg cost for cost.
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Again you talk BW. Again you talk "cost for cost" which is no real measure because races have to split their investment into production/army differently and zerg can get a base ahead easy.
Thor +support is "dicking around" it will get crushed by mmm and fast expansions. Or just mass roach early ...or immortal Stalker...
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On March 04 2016 17:03 KT_Elwood wrote:
Back to topic pls.
It's 2016 !
Broodwar is for the aficionados. Also Trump might be president and Leo got an oscar. So since everything is possible now...avilo made a good contribution.
If you DONT play SC2 with the intent of grinding through BOs and "make that specific thing" but you play it for fun and more freestyle, you stumble across MECH. Its fun. You can play sc2 for fun. Not like the korean BO-Roboter you want to become.
You have to face that some styles will never work, and that the reason for standard play is...well its the most likely one to win you the game if you are indeed the better player.
But if you dick around, and get into games where your opponennt also just dicks around, or even if you JUST wanted to play it standard but the game got beyond that...you find yourself in a position where protoss air is fucking IMBA.
The problem, and now here is Avilos Point, is that Protoss Air, in it self, is completly self supporting.
Pure Carriers and any mixture of Tempest and Carriers does not need a ground army, at max some templurs. Also every Terran ground unit (and the PRODUCTION !) is useless beyond that point where protoss can actually, after a trade make Carriers from 4+ Stargates.
Even 200 Marines cant fight Carriers + Templar.
Terran has to spam Starports once Stargates+FleetBacon is detected. At least 6. And you have to micro your ass out to get your liberators to 1-shot the interceptors and get out of range again, while protoss uses "a" and "r"...or mouse only.
Raven is useless against Carrier, Liberators and BC get killed by Tempests, Vikings die like fly once in the cloud of interceptors, that can be spammed by press of a button.
On equal bases, and equal "Units lost" Protoss will win with Air. No matter what you do, no matter how good your micro is.
TL;DR:
Once protoss makes carriers, all your ground army, all barracks, and all Factories, and all ground upgrades are worthless.
While on the other hands GATEWAYS and shield upgrades are pretty neat. They make templars and archons and maybe to finish Stalkers....all if wich are pretty good in killing Terran air units or MassMarines
The THOR:
Enabeling the Thor to actually "Beat Tier3 Air" was something Lizard thought about (.rm -r Singletarget mode) !
The problem however microwise was that
a) Thors shoot super slow
b) thors move super slow
c) you want individual thors to shoot specific BL/Carrier whatever which takes to long to target.
(Focus fire will result in overkill, so some thors dont shoot)
Resulting in thors doing nothing, targeting winterceptors uselessly, not 1-shotting them either or get stuck on broodlings.
I get LOTV does not want you to play clownish. It wants you, more than ever, to make more stuff than your opponent and roll him over.
For Terran it's Kas-Macro and MMM and boom you are in Masters. Not strategy needed.
Avilos change wont make the thor OP. But it will cause all races to actually keep making ground units or lose. Thats good !
But this isn't true.
An equal investment in carriers and liberators with no micro on either side, the liberators win. Easily.
An example with just A-move:
10 carriers
4500 minerals
2500 gas
17 Liberators
2550 minerals
2550 gas
Winner:
Liberator with 11 surviving
If you mix in archons, storm, whatever then yeah.
But Terrans can add ghosts, tanks, whatever then counter-yeah.
If you want to buff the Thor, you need to nerf the Terran air. I wouldn't mind it, but to just propose a change without the proper counterbalance is strange.
Terrans are not struggling versus Protoss.
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On March 04 2016 17:19 Nazara wrote:
I'll say it again - you can't make the Thor as good vs air while keeping it decent vs ground. Goliath sucked vs ground. You could exploit it vs mech, because you could make more ground units if there was a lot of them and win.
It forced you to scout and respond to mech composition. If you did, and 5 initial tanks didn't scare you into mass muta, you could win with hydraling.
And if there was too many tanks but not enough goliaths, mutaling could win the day.
Thor cannot be cost efficient vs both air and ground.
With this change and no corresponding nerd to ground dps, there is no reason not to make Thor + support only. Hellbats, tanks and 50% of Thor in the army would most likely wreck everything protoss or zerg cost for cost.
Goliaths did not suck against ground...from what i remember goliaths actually could kill units like dragoons and goliaths almost had the same dps as a stimmed marine in SC1. They were not as strong as tanks and vultures in general versus ground but they did pretty damn good damage.
Also i think you're forgetting there are a few hard counters in SC2, like immortals 100% will rekt thors, or any swarm of low tier units mixed with higher tier units is really effective against someone that masses thors.
Either way, all this discussion is good i think :D please try the upgrade and play some mech games with/against it and give me more feedbacks  !
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I think this is an excellent opportunity to improve the game as a whole and diversify unit roles.
Meditank should of course be removed since it was a design blunder that goes against the the whole idea behind the tank. It is almost as absurd as letting Ultralisks fly.
Siege tanks should have improved damage in siege mode so that it can actually can do what it is supposed to do.
Thors should lose its jack of all trades role and be better versus air but worse against ground.
This game need more variety in viable unit combos for Terran. It gets a bit boring if you have to use the exact same army every game.
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On March 01 2016 07:03 Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 06:58 avilo wrote:On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote:
Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP. A) that feedback is not useful, and you're incorrect. The video is a vacuum scenario, 99% of games you will never have only thors versus only carriers, i made that video specifically to show you how the upgrade changes the thor. B) the upgrade is meant to make thors powerful versus air, because mech currently has no mech AA unit. I'd appreciate if you test playing against it or with it in an actual game. Trust me, after a few games (i've done a few already) it's not anywhere near OP, and if anything you'll probably think tempests are still too good regardless of this new upgrade :D (trust me lol). You fail to address balance though. Thors are built twice faster than carriers if Liquipedia is correct. And you have a lot of thors left after fight. How is this video supposed to show balance? Yes, it lets thors be a strong AA unit but it fails to make it balanced. This was 36 thors vs 32 carriers game. Edit: Switched numbers by mistake. 36 thors vs 32 carriers.
If that is right, the test is useless because 36 thors dont clump or are in range (in a normal game) while 32 carriers can stack and deal more damage to single thors and kill them faster that way.
Better test would be if you had 6-8 thors against 6-8 carriers.
EDIT: It would be better if we test cyclone, raven and bc changes. Thor has already his role as a beefy unit in tvt and as counter to every zerg ground unit except lings. Dont think thor will ever work in pvt.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 04 2016 22:19 todespolka wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 07:03 Shield wrote:On March 01 2016 06:58 avilo wrote:On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote:
Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP. A) that feedback is not useful, and you're incorrect. The video is a vacuum scenario, 99% of games you will never have only thors versus only carriers, i made that video specifically to show you how the upgrade changes the thor. B) the upgrade is meant to make thors powerful versus air, because mech currently has no mech AA unit. I'd appreciate if you test playing against it or with it in an actual game. Trust me, after a few games (i've done a few already) it's not anywhere near OP, and if anything you'll probably think tempests are still too good regardless of this new upgrade :D (trust me lol). You fail to address balance though. Thors are built twice faster than carriers if Liquipedia is correct. And you have a lot of thors left after fight. How is this video supposed to show balance? Yes, it lets thors be a strong AA unit but it fails to make it balanced. This was 36 thors vs 32 carriers game. Edit: Switched numbers by mistake. 36 thors vs 32 carriers. If that is right, the test is useless because 36 thors dont clump or are in range (in a normal game) while 32 carriers can stack and deal more damage to single thors and kill them faster that way. Better test would be if you had 6-8 thors against 6-8 carriers. EDIT: It would be better if we test cyclone, raven and bc changes. Thor has already his role as a beefy unit in tvt and as counter to every zerg ground unit except lings. Dont think thor will ever work in pvt.
With that upgrade Thor has 13 range so more thors will reach the air army. Also in the real game airtoss would be properly clumped so you would actually need less thors.
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EPT
