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After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem.
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On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem.
Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air.
Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units.
Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game.
Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm.
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On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm.
Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran?
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On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran?
Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor.
terran can play bio/liberator.
Don't you think something is wrong with that?
because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale.
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On March 05 2016 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor. terran can play bio/liberator. Don't you think something is wrong with that? because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale.
Is this a parody or not? The protoss combinations reeks of utter desperation, having to seperate stalkers into stalkers, blink stalkers and blink respectively in a bid to pad out the options. Meanwhile, the myriad permutation of marine, maurader, hellion/hellbat, widowmines, tank, ghost, viking, medivac are under the umbrella of bio, so you can pretend that terran has no variety.
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On March 05 2016 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor. terran can play bio/liberator. Don't you think something is wrong with that? because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale.
Wait a minute--so you have a problem with Terrans using Barracks plus support units while Protoss also uses Gateways and support units?
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On March 05 2016 08:58 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor. terran can play bio/liberator. Don't you think something is wrong with that? because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale. Wait a minute--so you have a problem with Terrans using Barracks plus support units while Protoss also uses Gateways and support units?
I feel I'm feeding a troll at this point or you have some reading comprehension issues.
just read my post again and you'll know what's the problem.
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On March 05 2016 08:58 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor. terran can play bio/liberator. Don't you think something is wrong with that? because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale. Wait a minute--so you have a problem with Terrans using Barracks plus support units while Protoss also uses Gateways and support units?
Ghost mech is also core+support but people act like it doesnt exist
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On March 05 2016 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor. terran can play bio/liberator. Don't you think something is wrong with that? because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale.
None of the protoss combinations you cited were PURE robo units
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On March 05 2016 08:40 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor. terran can play bio/liberator. Don't you think something is wrong with that? because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale. Is this a parody or not? The protoss combinations reeks of utter desperation, having to seperate stalkers into stalkers, blink stalkers and blink respectively in a bid to pad out the options. Meanwhile, the myriad permutation of marine, maurader, hellion/hellbat, widowmines, tank, ghost, viking, medivac are under the umbrella of bio, so you can pretend that terran has no variety.
Exactly. This thread should be closed after this post.
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I don't see a problem with implementing a less extreme version of the upgrade. For example, instead of changing from 6+6(light) have it change to 9+3(light). I'm skeptical about +3 range, that seems quite threatening, perhaps +2. Regardless, the addition of an upgrade would probably help improve the game and reduce reliance on mass Viking.
I just worry that a pure hellbat, siege tank, thor army would crush Zerg with no supporting units.
Perhaps make it so this is a "mode" that is activated, which turns off the ground attack entirely.
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On March 07 2016 04:40 FabledIntegral wrote:
I don't see a problem with implementing a less extreme version of the upgrade. For example, instead of changing from 6+6(light) have it change to 9+3(light). I'm skeptical about +3 range, that seems quite threatening, perhaps +2. Regardless, the addition of an upgrade would probably help improve the game and reduce reliance on mass Viking.
I just worry that a pure hellbat, siege tank, thor army would crush Zerg with no supporting units.
Perhaps make it so this is a "mode" that is activated, which turns off the ground attack entirely.
i got no problems with a moderate buff to both the Thor and Tank. I think it'd be cool. I just want to see an off-setting nerf to some Terran Air units to make up for the buff.
On March 07 2016 03:42 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:40 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On March 05 2016 08:32 Charoisaur wrote:On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? Protoss can play adept/Stalker/Immortal, adept/ht, chargelot/ht, blinkstalker/collossus and blink/disruptor. terran can play bio/liberator. Don't you think something is wrong with that? because the way upgrades work terran can't just mix thors or hellbats into their composition so as long as mech is not viable terrans unit compositions will always be extremely stale. Is this a parody or not? The protoss combinations reeks of utter desperation, having to seperate stalkers into stalkers, blink stalkers and blink respectively in a bid to pad out the options. Meanwhile, the myriad permutation of marine, maurader, hellion/hellbat, widowmines, tank, ghost, viking, medivac are under the umbrella of bio, so you can pretend that terran has no variety. Exactly. This thread should be closed after this post.
true
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On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran?
The problem is more that it's bio+liberators into full air in every matchup, and that full air vs full air games are dull to say the least.
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I think focusing on changes to the cyclone would be a better idea, no? the reason Goliaths functioned as they did in BW was partially because they were relatively cheap, flexible, mobile, and weak (compared to the Siege tank in BW). Thors are kind of a flawed unit in principle I think.
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On March 07 2016 07:12 ArcadePlus wrote:
I think focusing on changes to the cyclone would be a better idea, no? the reason Goliaths functioned as they did in BW was partially because they were relatively cheap, flexible, mobile, and weak (compared to the Siege tank in BW). Thors are kind of a flawed unit in principle I think.
Thor was never a good unit in the first place
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Step 1 to make Mech viable: Make hellions/hellbats viable against Protoss. You're not going to be playing Mech ever when your antilight unit gets countered by everything they can field. Including their light units.
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On March 07 2016 06:45 TwiggyWan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2016 08:19 parkufarku wrote:On March 05 2016 03:52 avilo wrote:On March 04 2016 23:56 Sapphire.lux wrote:
After watching the train wreck of mech vs Z at IEM, i wonder if Cyclones could become the answer to BL. The Thor change could do it too with increased range, but i feel there is more of a chance to get a Cyclone buff seeing how it's the new shiny LOTV unit and it's not having a good time right now.
Either way, BLs and Tempests are a big problem. Just saw that game today too. And i hope people see how bad it is that once any amount of air hits the map the game turns into air turtlefest + massing of air. Every single ground unit both players made is completely irrelevant once mass broods/vipers hits the field, same as carrier/tempest because in that game the only thing that matters are the air units. Imagine if in that game, he could make thors with this upgrade to counter air and dissuade snute from just massing air in the first place then factory units would actually be relevant in the game. Pretty frustrating game to watch because we all know after watching train wrecks like that every single game will just be a bio game + liberators since mech is garbage atm. Let's assume all that stuff you said are true (even tho it isn't). What's wrong with bio + liberators? Do you see Protoss players complaining they can't only use Robo units to beat Terran? The problem is more that it's bio+liberators into full air in every matchup, and that full air vs full air games are dull to say the least.
So instead of inventing a matchup based on nostalgia--wouldn't it be more logical to try to make the air vs air games more fun if the game naturally goes in that direction already?
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On March 07 2016 08:12 Big J wrote:
Step 1 to make Mech viable: Make hellions/hellbats viable against Protoss. You're not going to be playing Mech ever when your antilight unit gets countered by everything they can field. Including their light units.
I wonder if a bonus damage vs shields would be good, that doesnt breaks other MUs and hellions/hellbats are super trash vs protoss so it wouldn't be too much, it can be added to blueflame if necessary.
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I mean, making mech viable isn't -just- about AA, right? it's about being able to extend map control, which Mech isn't necessarily bad at but bio or bio-tank or bio-liberator is just better at right now. the mobility-power-cost intersection just seems not to favor mech units and I think the design of the Thor and cyclone are principle
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On March 07 2016 09:37 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2016 08:12 Big J wrote:
Step 1 to make Mech viable: Make hellions/hellbats viable against Protoss. You're not going to be playing Mech ever when your antilight unit gets countered by everything they can field. Including their light units. I wonder if a bonus damage vs shields would be good, that doesnt breaks other MUs and hellions/hellbats are super trash vs protoss so it wouldn't be too much, it can be added to blueflame if necessary.
Nope... we remove it's light tag, so when adept shade in siege tank, they get eating alive.
Also it give opportunity to buff bane's speed to help LBM already underuse.
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EPT
