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On March 03 2016 09:11 Branch.AUT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 05:27 avilo wrote:On March 03 2016 05:18 emc wrote:On March 01 2016 06:58 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Just lings counter Thors as well. Does that mean lings are OP? lol, lings counter ONE thor, as soon as you have enough thors to make it impossible to do a full surround, lings are useless. Hell, even ultras melt to thors if they can't get enough surface area. Avilo, I respect the work you put in this game and I think this is a good upgrade, but Thor's are such beefy tanky units that it seems once you reach that critical mass that nothing would counter this unit. Remember that mass Thor(zain) was a problem in WoL and it was toned down for a reason. I'm not entirely opposed to this because toss has feedback + immortals but Zerg's best counter, the viper may not even get a chance to use it's abilities if it gets shot down at 9 range or whatever the full range is. with that said, would be nice if blizzard implemented this into a test map so there could be more widespread testing and feedback given directly to blizzard. I'm a fan of BW Goliath, but they were supposed to be massed because they were disposable, the Thor is a like a hero unit that never dies once it's upgraded. edit: holy fuck, 13 range with splash damage? Take out the splash damage and we're looking at something much more fair, even then, 13 range? seriously? what's the point of ever needing to make a viking? Lings counter mass thors with ultras. As for the thorzain thing, i clearly remember MC was clueless about what to do vs mech, and some of the maps were really narrow which helped as well as the strike cannon upgrade. They nerfed it after one bo5 series without even letting Protosses learn how to play (it was actually incredibly easy to counter "mass thors") And the splash damage i specifically put in to help versus interceptors, i am probably going to lower the +.25 to .125  Why do you think terran should be able to win games making only one production building? There has been plenty of arguments in this thread why it doesnt and shouldnt work. Its obvious you invested a lot of effort into your idea. Sometimes an idea is just not worth pursuing. SC2 isnt scbw and hopefully never will be. I for one dont enjoy playing or watching hour long turtlefests but hey, theres always brood war for that. I hear they even have goliaths there!
They already do with bio games? Imagine if bio Terran had all of their 6-10 rax become invalidated because the opponent built 1 single unit. And then bio Terran had to re-build only factories/only starports to be able to play the game. The game would be absolutely terrible because the guy going bio Terran would be in the same situation mech is right now - you would be forced to turtle in your base doing nothing until you have your new production to counter the one opponent your opponent made to counter all of your bio units.
Sound familiar? That actually is kind of true about 8 armor ultras and air units in general.
As for mech, and 1 hr turtle fests...this mod has already been successful in proving just the single thor upgrade added into the game allows mech to attack onto the map and not be forced to sit in their base.
As i posted in one post earlier YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. You cannot say "i fuckin hate turtle mech bullshit fests, it's utterly stupid." And then when a change is shown and proven to allow mech to move out onto the map and attack and stop the turtling then you say, "Terran shouldn't be able to win by making factories relevant - mech should have no aa and have to turtle in their base and autolose if i make 20 tempests."
That's really not healthy for SC2 gameplay...a lot of the "mech haters" seem to think mech has to be turtle only, and that's one of the goals of this mod - making a healthy change to SC2 gameplay for mech viability WITHOUT CHANGING MANY, IF ANY, STATS ON ANY OF THE UNITS IN THE GAME which reduces the chance of breaking the game.
As for wanting the game to be SC1, no one wants the game to be SC1. What a lot of people including myself want is for there to be viable mech play that is not forced to be "turtle bullshit mech."
On March 03 2016 08:51 MaxTa wrote:
I'm posting this here because I think this is what will make mech and the overall game work better for every race:
TERRAN
- Siege tanks: Damage buff, Unload unsieged from medivacs
- Liberators: Increase supply cost to 4, reduce move speed
- Cyclones: Lower cost, Increase HP
- Thors: Possibly boost AA vs armored (Avilo's upgrade ?)
ZERG
- Ravagers: Change to armored since they have +1 armor, increase morph time, possibly nerf corrosive bile
- Lurkers: Reduce their range, possibly give them bonus damage vs Light instead of vs Armored
- Nydus: Remove invincibility
- Ultra: Possibly reduce their armor to +6 instead of +8
PROTOSS
- Immortals: Increase cooldown on their shield
- Tempest: Increase their supply cost to 6, Reduce their range, Possibly make them only attack air
- Adept: Increase their cost to 150/25 or 125/25
- Disruptors: Remove their bonus damage agaisn't shield
Hey, guess what :D spoiler alert but a lot of the changes you mentioned here were already planned for the finalized version of this mod.
Liberators, tempests, carriers, BCS, broods all are getting a supply increase.
Nydus worms will be targetable, but nydus worm exits will be cost reduced to 50/50.
Cyclones are getting a slight re-design to test them in a more mobile/spammable anti-air role.
Ultras are having the 8 armor hard counter removed from the game.
Tempest is getting a supply increase, as well as health/shields reduced slightly.
There's a few more things that will be in the final version, such as a new hive tech hydralisk upgrade that is along the same lines as the thor upgrade, allowing hydralisks +1 range and their auto-attack to split to two aerial targets to allow Zerg a better anti-air counter to help alleviate the problem of people turtling to mass carrier/tempest/liberators.
The final version addresses turtle stalemates and air in general by increasing the supply cost of liberators to 4 from 3, tempest goes to 8 from 4 (yep, as a test, can always put it back to 6), carriers to 8 from 6, bcs to 8 from 6, and broodlords to 6 from 4.
The very interesting thing from the initial tests and feedback that all of you guys have given me here and people from playing the map...since the plan from the start was to increase the supply cost of air to tone down air, and since the thor upgrade most people have given feedback is on the strong side (tho intended)...i'll now have to decide on toning back the thor upgrade quite a bit since supply nerfs on all air means there will be less of them, or supply nerfs on air may be unnecessary at all since the thor and i'm assuming the hydralisk upgrade will make them very good as anti-air.
I'm hoping that more people test the current mod that has just the thor upgrade and adjust their protoss/zerg play and that it turns out this upgrade alone is fine and that no supply changes are needed to air units...because i'm quite sure blizzard will be willing to implement one single change into the game that helps mech viability, rather than change multiple things around.
But we'll see.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 03 2016 02:08 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 01:16 deacon.frost wrote:On March 03 2016 00:28 avilo wrote:On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type. Imagine if Protoss had no stalker/templars available from the gateway. Every single game you realize Protoss builds 5-15 or so gateways versus all races. But if suddenly there was no available anti-air option from gateways...it means once the opponent decides to make any amount of air, Protoss would literally have to sit in his base and turtle until he has mass phoenix, voids, tempests, carriers as those are the only units able to deal with air. All of the gateways he's built up the entire game now completely do not matter - as the only thing that matters is anti-air in that hypothetical situation. That is the core issue with mech. Since the units that come from the factory suck so badly, you're by definition forced to turtle and sit in your base and do nothing if your opponent spams air - all of your factories are invalidated. That is NOT right, nor does it promote healthy or action packed gameplay to force a player to sit and do nothing and mass air to counter air. The only argument people can make against that is "but avilo you don't HAVE to play mech! Go bio and make marines!" And those are the people that would be happy if every single game would be broodlord infestor until the end of time, or bio 99% of games until the end of time and i'm not going to bother responding to those people because they don't have the best interests of the longevity of SC2 in mind. Imagine if Protoss would be able to defend mass mutas with gateway units... You failed, sir. You need phoenixes against mass muta shit. Against airtoss it is really fucking hard to go ground toss(phoenix vs. phoenix wars). C'mon, Protoss has one of the worst GtA capabilities. Protoss had several patches on phoenixes because of mutalisks, Protoss received a special unit to counter broodlords!(which was originally designed to counter mutas  ) I cannot understand how a person with your level can make such comparisons. Especially Protoss has pathetic GtA, the only units that can be considered as such are templars and stalkers. Sentries tickles and archons have low range. We have to build air units too. Don't use Protoss comparisons when you are so bad at it. The only MU where Protoss has somewhat decent GtA is PvT. Edit: The same could be said about zergs to be fair, the best anti air in the game has Terran, though it's not in the mech(even though mines created the most hilarious moments of so few units destroying so much) You missed the entire point of the analogy i was making, and protoss does have anti-air called the stalker, high templar storm, and archon splash. Sure, ranged phoenix are a hard counter option, but you do have anti-air options from the gateway. If those were not in the game the point i was making is that all of your gateways would be 100% invalidated. My comparison was 100% perfect. Also, mutas/banshees/phoenix are an entirely different thing considering they are light units and very vulnerable to splash, whereas BCS, liberators, tempests, carriers, and broods are not as vulnerable to splash and in general stronger.
Dear sir, you are blinded by your terran bias. Therefore I think discussion with you is pointless. Add some insults.
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On March 03 2016 17:22 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 09:11 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 03 2016 05:27 avilo wrote:On March 03 2016 05:18 emc wrote:On March 01 2016 06:58 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Just lings counter Thors as well. Does that mean lings are OP? lol, lings counter ONE thor, as soon as you have enough thors to make it impossible to do a full surround, lings are useless. Hell, even ultras melt to thors if they can't get enough surface area. Avilo, I respect the work you put in this game and I think this is a good upgrade, but Thor's are such beefy tanky units that it seems once you reach that critical mass that nothing would counter this unit. Remember that mass Thor(zain) was a problem in WoL and it was toned down for a reason. I'm not entirely opposed to this because toss has feedback + immortals but Zerg's best counter, the viper may not even get a chance to use it's abilities if it gets shot down at 9 range or whatever the full range is. with that said, would be nice if blizzard implemented this into a test map so there could be more widespread testing and feedback given directly to blizzard. I'm a fan of BW Goliath, but they were supposed to be massed because they were disposable, the Thor is a like a hero unit that never dies once it's upgraded. edit: holy fuck, 13 range with splash damage? Take out the splash damage and we're looking at something much more fair, even then, 13 range? seriously? what's the point of ever needing to make a viking? Lings counter mass thors with ultras. As for the thorzain thing, i clearly remember MC was clueless about what to do vs mech, and some of the maps were really narrow which helped as well as the strike cannon upgrade. They nerfed it after one bo5 series without even letting Protosses learn how to play (it was actually incredibly easy to counter "mass thors") And the splash damage i specifically put in to help versus interceptors, i am probably going to lower the +.25 to .125 Why do you think terran should be able to win games making only one production building? There has been plenty of arguments in this thread why it doesnt and shouldnt work. Its obvious you invested a lot of effort into your idea. Sometimes an idea is just not worth pursuing. SC2 isnt scbw and hopefully never will be. I for one dont enjoy playing or watching hour long turtlefests but hey, theres always brood war for that. I hear they even have goliaths there! They already do with bio games? Imagine if bio Terran had all of their 6-10 rax become invalidated because the opponent built 1 single unit. And then bio Terran had to re-build only factories/only starports to be able to play the game. The game would be absolutely terrible because the guy going bio Terran would be in the same situation mech is right now - you would be forced to turtle in your base doing nothing until you have your new production to counter the one opponent your opponent made to counter all of your bio units. Sound familiar? That actually is kind of true about 8 armor ultras and air units in general. As for mech, and 1 hr turtle fests...this mod has already been successful in proving just the single thor upgrade added into the game allows mech to attack onto the map and not be forced to sit in their base. As i posted in one post earlier YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. You cannot say "i fuckin hate turtle mech bullshit fests, it's utterly stupid." And then when a change is shown and proven to allow mech to move out onto the map and attack and stop the turtling then you say, "Terran shouldn't be able to win by making factories relevant - mech should have no aa and have to turtle in their base and autolose if i make 20 tempests." That's really not healthy for SC2 gameplay...a lot of the "mech haters" seem to think mech has to be turtle only, and that's one of the goals of this mod - making a healthy change to SC2 gameplay for mech viability WITHOUT CHANGING MANY, IF ANY, STATS ON ANY OF THE UNITS IN THE GAME which reduces the chance of breaking the game. As for wanting the game to be SC1, no one wants the game to be SC1. What a lot of people including myself want is for there to be viable mech play that is not forced to be "turtle bullshit mech."
I tried leaving aside your your... bold assumptions... but I could not.
Marines do very VERY well vs almost any air unit. Ghosts and Marauders are very capable of dealing with Ultralisks. Bio players make plenty of medivac/liberator/mine/tank support. Your posts reads to me like you haven't even see a competent player play terran in quite some time.
Remind me again how breaking Thor Antiair makes mech composition more mobile and able to fight spread out? And please post your "prove" of improved gameplay for your change?
Or rather, don't. It has become quite apparent how stuck to this idea you are, no matter how broken the effects and how bad the reasoning behind it is. You should inform yourself on confirmiation bias and its effects on your whole mech spiel before continuing productive work in my opionion.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
The final version addresses turtle stalemates and air in general by increasing the supply cost of liberators to 4 from 3, tempest goes to 8 from 4
Why don't you make Thors cost 10 supply & other mech supply changes while you're at it? They can have higher stats & better AA that way to make them stronger in the midgame without making maxed armies stronger
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Reverting the PDD nerf would help fight vs tempests, so we can buff other units less.
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People always ask for a lot of things to make mech viable. Like this ridiculous Thor air upgrade. Most of the time what they ask for is simply OP. How the fuck do you kill mass Thor if Carriers can't even trade against them? Yeah Immortals are good but with some Hellions as a meat shield they die incredibly fast. Remember that LotV Immortals take WAAAAAYYYYY more damage from Thors than they used to in HotS because the passive shield is gone.
Then you ask, well, how does one beat this ludicrous army that has literally everything it needs from one production structure? And the answer is always "mech is slow, you have to use your mobility to expose them where they're vulnerable like in BW."
Except in BW there were no fucking planetary fortresses.
And Protoss late game armies were far more mobile than they are now, with Arbiters able to recall ALL units offensively, not just defensively.
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"SC2 is not SC:BW, its a different game"
"SC2 should be(come) a copy of SC:BW"
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On March 03 2016 19:09 Branch.AUT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 17:22 avilo wrote:On March 03 2016 09:11 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 03 2016 05:27 avilo wrote:On March 03 2016 05:18 emc wrote:On March 01 2016 06:58 PinoKotsBeer wrote:
Just lings counter Thors as well. Does that mean lings are OP? lol, lings counter ONE thor, as soon as you have enough thors to make it impossible to do a full surround, lings are useless. Hell, even ultras melt to thors if they can't get enough surface area. Avilo, I respect the work you put in this game and I think this is a good upgrade, but Thor's are such beefy tanky units that it seems once you reach that critical mass that nothing would counter this unit. Remember that mass Thor(zain) was a problem in WoL and it was toned down for a reason. I'm not entirely opposed to this because toss has feedback + immortals but Zerg's best counter, the viper may not even get a chance to use it's abilities if it gets shot down at 9 range or whatever the full range is. with that said, would be nice if blizzard implemented this into a test map so there could be more widespread testing and feedback given directly to blizzard. I'm a fan of BW Goliath, but they were supposed to be massed because they were disposable, the Thor is a like a hero unit that never dies once it's upgraded. edit: holy fuck, 13 range with splash damage? Take out the splash damage and we're looking at something much more fair, even then, 13 range? seriously? what's the point of ever needing to make a viking? Lings counter mass thors with ultras. As for the thorzain thing, i clearly remember MC was clueless about what to do vs mech, and some of the maps were really narrow which helped as well as the strike cannon upgrade. They nerfed it after one bo5 series without even letting Protosses learn how to play (it was actually incredibly easy to counter "mass thors") And the splash damage i specifically put in to help versus interceptors, i am probably going to lower the +.25 to .125 Why do you think terran should be able to win games making only one production building? There has been plenty of arguments in this thread why it doesnt and shouldnt work. Its obvious you invested a lot of effort into your idea. Sometimes an idea is just not worth pursuing. SC2 isnt scbw and hopefully never will be. I for one dont enjoy playing or watching hour long turtlefests but hey, theres always brood war for that. I hear they even have goliaths there! They already do with bio games? Imagine if bio Terran had all of their 6-10 rax become invalidated because the opponent built 1 single unit. And then bio Terran had to re-build only factories/only starports to be able to play the game. The game would be absolutely terrible because the guy going bio Terran would be in the same situation mech is right now - you would be forced to turtle in your base doing nothing until you have your new production to counter the one opponent your opponent made to counter all of your bio units. Sound familiar? That actually is kind of true about 8 armor ultras and air units in general. As for mech, and 1 hr turtle fests...this mod has already been successful in proving just the single thor upgrade added into the game allows mech to attack onto the map and not be forced to sit in their base. As i posted in one post earlier YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. You cannot say "i fuckin hate turtle mech bullshit fests, it's utterly stupid." And then when a change is shown and proven to allow mech to move out onto the map and attack and stop the turtling then you say, "Terran shouldn't be able to win by making factories relevant - mech should have no aa and have to turtle in their base and autolose if i make 20 tempests." That's really not healthy for SC2 gameplay...a lot of the "mech haters" seem to think mech has to be turtle only, and that's one of the goals of this mod - making a healthy change to SC2 gameplay for mech viability WITHOUT CHANGING MANY, IF ANY, STATS ON ANY OF THE UNITS IN THE GAME which reduces the chance of breaking the game. As for wanting the game to be SC1, no one wants the game to be SC1. What a lot of people including myself want is for there to be viable mech play that is not forced to be "turtle bullshit mech." I tried leaving aside your your... bold assumptions... but I could not. Marines do very VERY well vs almost any air unit. Ghosts and Marauders are very capable of dealing with Ultralisks. Bio players make plenty of medivac/liberator/mine/tank support. Your posts reads to me like you haven't even see a competent player play terran in quite some time. Remind me again how breaking Thor Antiair makes mech composition more mobile and able to fight spread out? And please post your "prove" of improved gameplay for your change? Or rather, don't. It has become quite apparent how stuck to this idea you are, no matter how broken the effects and how bad the reasoning behind it is. You should inform yourself on confirmiation bias and its effects on your whole mech spiel before continuing productive work in my opionion.
From the testing i have proven this thor upgrade makes mech more mobile and able to fight spread out through this analysis done watching and playing games on the mod to address what you said:
a) mech is able to go past 5 factories and play a macro game, allowing more trading to occur between the mech terran and the opponent
b) mech is able to be on the map attacking/spread out more because you have approximately 30-40 supply that is now open to produce more mech ground units instead of vikings. This theory alone is proven via this mod, test it out yourself you will be quite happily surprised mech no longer is forced to turtle
c) marines/ghosts/marauders are bio units, not mech. Has nothing to do with this mod which is exploring changes to promote mech viability. Bio is already viable for Terran and has been for years.
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On March 03 2016 23:36 DinoMight wrote:
People always ask for a lot of things to make mech viable. Like this ridiculous Thor air upgrade. Most of the time what they ask for is simply OP. How the fuck do you kill mass Thor if Carriers can't even trade against them? Yeah Immortals are good but with some Hellions as a meat shield they die incredibly fast. Remember that LotV Immortals take WAAAAAYYYYY more damage from Thors than they used to in HotS because the passive shield is gone.
Then you ask, well, how does one beat this ludicrous army that has literally everything it needs from one production structure? And the answer is always "mech is slow, you have to use your mobility to expose them where they're vulnerable like in BW."
Except in BW there were no fucking planetary fortresses.
And Protoss late game armies were far more mobile than they are now, with Arbiters able to recall ALL units offensively, not just defensively.
To address your points:
a) carriers are still viable and can trade versus thors. This mod makes it so Protoss cannot make 100% carriers like they currently can in the live game. This to me is reasonable. It's really silly and unhealthy for gameplay that if you attempt to go mech and Protoss builds 15 carriers there's not a single unit from the factory on the live game you can build to fight versus that. It's just bad gamepllay and forces the "turtle bullshit mech" into 30 lib/vikings/starports.
b) Since protoss will be investing less supply in air, more supply will be in mass immortals/disruptors/collosus, and gateway units. Protoss will have to build less stargates and more robos to fight mech, which is always how it has been until the tempest was introduced and tilted the power ratio allowing P to build up to 20 tempests which is absurd for gameplay and not healthy at all.
Tho in this mod you can still actually mass tempest and it's pretty ridiculous still - but now thors can counter this if you ONLY have tempests. This mod specifically is intended to make thors, cyclones, and hydralisks have a bit more power than air units so that games do not turn into turtle air bullshit. You must make units other than just only carrier/tempest - this is 100% healthier for gameplay. When i release the replay pack with games from the MOD you'll have to check them out.
c) Protoss late game mobility is arguable. Warp prisms are semi-like an arbiter, and Protoss in SC2 has warpgate which is a huge advantage over SC1 protoss.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
To address your points:
a) carriers are still viable and can trade versus thors.
The thors trade like 3:1 cost efficiently in your video
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On March 04 2016 00:13 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 23:36 DinoMight wrote:
People always ask for a lot of things to make mech viable. Like this ridiculous Thor air upgrade. Most of the time what they ask for is simply OP. How the fuck do you kill mass Thor if Carriers can't even trade against them? Yeah Immortals are good but with some Hellions as a meat shield they die incredibly fast. Remember that LotV Immortals take WAAAAAYYYYY more damage from Thors than they used to in HotS because the passive shield is gone.
Then you ask, well, how does one beat this ludicrous army that has literally everything it needs from one production structure? And the answer is always "mech is slow, you have to use your mobility to expose them where they're vulnerable like in BW."
Except in BW there were no fucking planetary fortresses.
And Protoss late game armies were far more mobile than they are now, with Arbiters able to recall ALL units offensively, not just defensively.
To address your points: a) carriers are still viable and can trade versus thors. This mod makes it so Protoss cannot make 100% carriers like they currently can in the live game. This to me is reasonable. It's really silly and unhealthy for gameplay that if you attempt to go mech and Protoss builds 15 carriers there's not a single unit from the factory on the live game you can build to fight versus that. It's just bad gamepllay and forces the "turtle bullshit mech" into 30 lib/vikings/starports. b) Since protoss will be investing less supply in air, more supply will be in mass immortals/disruptors/collosus, and gateway units. Protoss will have to build less stargates and more robos to fight mech, which is always how it has been until the tempest was introduced and tilted the power ratio allowing P to build up to 20 tempests which is absurd for gameplay and not healthy at all. Tho in this mod you can still actually mass tempest and it's pretty ridiculous still - but now thors can counter this if you ONLY have tempests. This mod specifically is intended to make thors, cyclones, and hydralisks have a bit more power than air units so that games do not turn into turtle air bullshit. You must make units other than just only carrier/tempest - this is 100% healthier for gameplay. When i release the replay pack with games from the MOD you'll have to check them out. c) Protoss late game mobility is arguable. Warp prisms are semi-like an arbiter, and Protoss in SC2 has warpgate which is a huge advantage over SC1 protoss.
So what beats mass Thor/Hellbat?
Also, your decision to not build anything from outside the factory doesn't mean other people won't. The game needs to be balanced around everything that players CAN build, not what AVILO WANTS to build.
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The last update shows fairly clearly IMO that they don't even want mech, let alone spend time working on it.
We see Terran players fielding a good mix of Bio and Mech units—do we really have to split those two strategies again?
We definitely understand this stance. Perhaps Terran is more fun to play with and watch if there’s always a mix of the two like we’re currently seeing, and maybe we don’t need them to be completely split.
I think from now on we are wasting our time talking about mech TBH, at least at pro level.
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On March 04 2016 00:20 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 00:13 avilo wrote:On March 03 2016 23:36 DinoMight wrote:
People always ask for a lot of things to make mech viable. Like this ridiculous Thor air upgrade. Most of the time what they ask for is simply OP. How the fuck do you kill mass Thor if Carriers can't even trade against them? Yeah Immortals are good but with some Hellions as a meat shield they die incredibly fast. Remember that LotV Immortals take WAAAAAYYYYY more damage from Thors than they used to in HotS because the passive shield is gone.
Then you ask, well, how does one beat this ludicrous army that has literally everything it needs from one production structure? And the answer is always "mech is slow, you have to use your mobility to expose them where they're vulnerable like in BW."
Except in BW there were no fucking planetary fortresses.
And Protoss late game armies were far more mobile than they are now, with Arbiters able to recall ALL units offensively, not just defensively.
To address your points: a) carriers are still viable and can trade versus thors. This mod makes it so Protoss cannot make 100% carriers like they currently can in the live game. This to me is reasonable. It's really silly and unhealthy for gameplay that if you attempt to go mech and Protoss builds 15 carriers there's not a single unit from the factory on the live game you can build to fight versus that. It's just bad gamepllay and forces the "turtle bullshit mech" into 30 lib/vikings/starports. b) Since protoss will be investing less supply in air, more supply will be in mass immortals/disruptors/collosus, and gateway units. Protoss will have to build less stargates and more robos to fight mech, which is always how it has been until the tempest was introduced and tilted the power ratio allowing P to build up to 20 tempests which is absurd for gameplay and not healthy at all. Tho in this mod you can still actually mass tempest and it's pretty ridiculous still - but now thors can counter this if you ONLY have tempests. This mod specifically is intended to make thors, cyclones, and hydralisks have a bit more power than air units so that games do not turn into turtle air bullshit. You must make units other than just only carrier/tempest - this is 100% healthier for gameplay. When i release the replay pack with games from the MOD you'll have to check them out. c) Protoss late game mobility is arguable. Warp prisms are semi-like an arbiter, and Protoss in SC2 has warpgate which is a huge advantage over SC1 protoss. So what beats mass Thor/Hellbat? Also, your decision to not build anything from outside the factory doesn't mean other people won't. The game needs to be balanced around everything that players CAN build, not what AVILO WANTS to build.
The same thing that beats it on the live version of the game...you can still build mass tempest/carriers and they will be able to kill thors/hellbats, along with mass immortals...archons...
For some reason a lot of you guys seem to think a change like this means you're forbidden from building the same units you could previously build...
Which is 100% not the case. You can still mass tempest/carrier if you choose to, but THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DIE NOW. You will not have a 100% freewin from building these units on this mod. There is now a clear and viable counter if you only build 100% air.
You can mix it up and build a ton of air + immortals/gateway units, but if you do decide to make only mass carrier/tempest your opponent WILL be able to fight you.
I feel like official blizzard patches go through the same thing. There's this placebo effect after patch changes where people think they suddenly can't do the old strat, when in reality you can do exactly the same strategy but it was just toned down a bit in power.
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On March 04 2016 00:13 avilo wrote:
a) carriers are still viable and can trade versus thors. This mod makes it so Protoss cannot make 100% carriers like they currently can in the live game. This to me is reasonable. It's really silly and unhealthy for gameplay that if you attempt to go mech and Protoss builds 15 carriers there's not a single unit from the factory on the live game you can build to fight versus that. It's just bad gamepllay and forces the "turtle bullshit mech" into 30 lib/vikings/starports.
At least factory units can attack air lol. There's not a single robo unit that can touch air (at all!).
And it's not like gateway units are much better against liberators either. It's just make tempest or kill them before they get mass upgraded libs, nothing else stands a chance.
Tankivac, widow mine and liberator all see a lot of play and they are mechanical (yes they are support for bio we know). If you want to play with a bazilion siege tanks and try to emulate BW then go ahead, but don't be mad when Blizz disregards this non-existant issue because there's a bazilion things more important to fix/work on right now.
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On March 04 2016 00:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:The last update shows fairly clearly IMO that they don't even want mech, let alone spend time working on it. Show nested quote +We see Terran players fielding a good mix of Bio and Mech units—do we really have to split those two strategies again?
We definitely understand this stance. Perhaps Terran is more fun to play with and watch if there’s always a mix of the two like we’re currently seeing, and maybe we don’t need them to be completely split. I think from now on we are wasting our time talking about mech TBH, at least at pro level.
Which is one reason why i started this mod with nice_username - to show that mech play can be made viable with a simple addition such as this thor upgrade.
It's ludicrous to think for 5+ yrs of SC2 mech has been a low tier only semi-viable strategy at times. So i started this initiative with the goal of showing people mech can be viable in a HEALTHY NON TURTLE BULLSHIT WAY.
I can then take all of this data, replays, VODS, analyze it, and show it to blizzard / community via the forums etc. If after that Blizzard is unwilling to listen or change anything despite the data and evidence showing mech can be made viable, i'll be speechless at that point.
But i'm hopeful Blizzard will listen and work with myself and the community if myself and others can show 100% data / evidence that mech can be made viable without breaking other parts of the game and without it being "turtle bullshit" mech.
I am also doing this for the sake of the longevity of SC2. The more available options there are to players, the longer people will play and watch SC2. Right now in LOTV 100% of games are bio + liberators, or 100% marine tank in TvT. That stuff will get old really fast trust me. Viewers are not stupid.
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On March 04 2016 00:30 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 00:21 Sapphire.lux wrote:The last update shows fairly clearly IMO that they don't even want mech, let alone spend time working on it. We see Terran players fielding a good mix of Bio and Mech units—do we really have to split those two strategies again?
We definitely understand this stance. Perhaps Terran is more fun to play with and watch if there’s always a mix of the two like we’re currently seeing, and maybe we don’t need them to be completely split. I think from now on we are wasting our time talking about mech TBH, at least at pro level. Which is one reason why i started this mod with nice_username - to show that mech play can be made viable with a simple addition such as this thor upgrade. It's ludicrous to think for 5+ yrs of SC2 mech has been a low tier only semi-viable strategy at times. So i started this initiative with the goal of showing people mech can be viable in a HEALTHY NON TURTLE BULLSHIT WAY. I can then take all of this data, replays, VODS, analyze it, and show it to blizzard / community via the forums etc. If after that Blizzard is unwilling to listen or change anything despite the data and evidence showing mech can be made viable, i'll be speechless at that point. But i'm hopeful Blizzard will listen and work with myself and the community if myself and others can show 100% data / evidence that mech can be made viable without breaking other parts of the game and without it being "turtle bullshit" mech. I am also doing this for the sake of the longevity of SC2. The more available options there are to players, the longer people will play and watch SC2. Right now in LOTV 100% of games are bio + liberators, or 100% marine tank in TvT. That stuff will get old really fast trust me. Viewers are not stupid.
I applaud your initiative, i really do.
I also appreciate DKs post of saying what he really thinks (not wanting to "separate" the styles) instead of the BS we heard for 5 years of "we are working on it; we need your feedback; etc".
I uninstalled the game knowing that this is not the SC that i want to play or watch and it will never be.
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On March 04 2016 00:26 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2016 00:20 DinoMight wrote:On March 04 2016 00:13 avilo wrote:On March 03 2016 23:36 DinoMight wrote:
People always ask for a lot of things to make mech viable. Like this ridiculous Thor air upgrade. Most of the time what they ask for is simply OP. How the fuck do you kill mass Thor if Carriers can't even trade against them? Yeah Immortals are good but with some Hellions as a meat shield they die incredibly fast. Remember that LotV Immortals take WAAAAAYYYYY more damage from Thors than they used to in HotS because the passive shield is gone.
Then you ask, well, how does one beat this ludicrous army that has literally everything it needs from one production structure? And the answer is always "mech is slow, you have to use your mobility to expose them where they're vulnerable like in BW."
Except in BW there were no fucking planetary fortresses.
And Protoss late game armies were far more mobile than they are now, with Arbiters able to recall ALL units offensively, not just defensively.
b) Since protoss will be investing less supply in air, more supply will be in mass immortals/disruptors/collosus, and gateway units. Protoss will have to build less stargates and more robos to fight mech, which is always how it has been until the tempest was introduced and tilted the power ratio allowing P to build up to 20 tempests which is absurd for gameplay and not healthy at all. Tho in this mod you can still actually mass tempest and it's pretty ridiculous still - but now thors can counter this if you ONLY have tempests. This mod specifically is intended to make thors, cyclones, and hydralisks have a bit more power than air units so that games do not turn into turtle air bullshit. You must make units other than just only carrier/tempest - this is 100% healthier for gameplay. When i release the replay pack with games from the MOD you'll have to check them out. c) Protoss late game mobility is arguable. Warp prisms are semi-like an arbiter, and Protoss in SC2 has warpgate which is a huge advantage over SC1 protoss. So what beats mass Thor/Hellbat? Also, your decision to not build anything from outside the factory doesn't mean other people won't. The game needs to be balanced around everything that players CAN build, not what AVILO WANTS to build. Which is 100% not the case. You can still mass tempest/carrier if you choose to, but THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DIE NOW. You will not have a 100% freewin from building these units on this mod. There is now a clear and viable counter if you only build 100% air.
To me, youve lost all credibility in balancing anything. This Idea is so imbalanced, how are you even critizising David kim about silly ideas.
You dont want the game to be fair, you want mech to be OP.
Youre also asking what to do vs 32 carriers, since protoss can "make carrier only". This is obviously a lie, they cant since ONE control group of Liberators one shots all Interceptors, and therefore win vs unlimited carriers.
Stop complaining about mech all the time, Blizzard is obviously aware of it - and they gave you plenty of new tools for Lotv (Speedbanshees, Liberators and more.)
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Summary of opinions and arguments so far (none of these are my own opinion and exaggerations are intentional):
Pro's:
- Mass tempest/carrier is lame. I want a unit or unit combo that can trade with them.
- New thor upgrades are the solution.
- With these upgrades mech play becomes viable (mech meaning factory units).
- Liberators are starting to bore me. Give mech a chance.
Con's:
- Mech is a turtlefest. Don't want.
- Those thor upgrades are too strong.
- If TvP will still be playable with a thor buff, what about TvZ and TvT?
Did I forget something? Please add!
Another good point was mentioned somewhere:
- Forget about the thor, cyclones are the real problem. Buff them so they become a main counter to mass tempest/carrier.
I myself would like the following question answered:
- What is the current state of matchup balance?
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Well I think the Thor upgrade could obviously be tuned down a bit more (just remember it's in experimental stage at this point) and also with a Liberator nerf in supply cost and move speed, it wouldn't be that easy for T to have unbeatable AA and clearly you wouldn't simply be able to mass pure thors and beat every single unit composition in the game, saying this is so absurd...
Also, I think this Thor upgrade should really only affect armored unit type since they are already good agaisn't mutas and banshees otherwise it would be overkill in TvZ and TvT...
Also even with this upgrade, Thors/Libs/Hellbats composition can easily be beaten with units like Immortals/Archon/Phenix/Tempest/Stalkers blink, pick your combo and mix at least 3 different unit type... It's just actually harder since you have more type of units to micro, which sadly most players can't seem to be able to do...
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On March 04 2016 06:11 MaxTa wrote:
Well I think the Thor upgrade could obviously be tuned down a bit more (just remember it's in experimental stage at this point) and also with a Liberator nerf in supply cost and move speed, it wouldn't be that easy for T to have unbeatable AA and clearly you wouldn't simply be able to mass pure thors and beat every single unit composition in the game, saying this is so absurd...
No, not just Thors. But Mass Thors doesn't really have a ground hardcounter from zerg and with this upgrade it becomes a hardcounter to all air units from zerg. Add to that that a mixture of tanks and hellbats hardcounters all ground units from zerg in the lategame. Combined that means, early on you still have the same game of roach/ravager and zerglings and mutas that potentially fuck up Mech. But once you get to the lategame, once you have a stable base composition of hellbat/tank/thor up, you basically cannot make a wrong composition anymore. Thors are so good vs Zerg air and still decent vs ground that at this point you can crazy overcommit to them, even if the opponent doesn't make any air. And once you have done that? Well, you can still go for your lategame air units. And you know what, the only good antiair zerg has in the lategame flies, but hey, the Terran already has a ton of Thors and they fuck everything you have that flies (you ever seen a Viking/Liberator vs Corruptor battle when those Thors are involved... unit tester is up, search for "Jay/avilo update"). Also ghosts are an incredible wildcard in the lategame for Terran Mech already, people just can't get there at the moment because the playstyle is so weak.
The options for Terran to turtle into an insane deathball are nearly unlimited with such a buff, because the Thor/Tank combo deals with any form of Zerg tech in the higher supplies. From there on you can build your dream army+mass mules. Or you can push in the mid-lategame, because as avilo said, with such a buff you could also play aggressive (and I'm not sure if it is really scoutable - hey my opponent made 7 factories... does that mean he masses thor/tank, or does that mean he rallies thor/tank??????), which obviously shakes the anti-Mech meta to be much more defensive, which in itself already makes lategame already harder.
In my opinion the clue to the whole discussion is that blizzard added more air units than most of us are comfortable with. Air as siegers, air has AtA, air has generalists, air has harassment, air has transports air has scouting, air has detection, air has spellcasters... Hell, if they added a mineralheavy unit (like 1:0, 3:1 or 4:1 mineral:gas ratio) that can attack ground in any form, air would immidiately be the strongest style in the game since you could spend all your resources on it and have basically all roles unlocked.
But anyways, those air units exist, that is just the state of the game and blizzard wants their units to be used. That's why you have to build vikings or corruptors or phoenixes against other air units. That's why Protoss needs Tempests vs Liberators, Terran cannot play without a Starport and the Viper is the solve-all-solution that holds lategame together. I'm not the greatest fan of this gameplay either, but stuff like avilo asks for are not intended (e.g. the Viking was always the intended Goliath replacment in SC2). You should use your air options and getting by completely without them should not be a general approach to the game. At this point I find it more realistic to ask for buffs for starport heavy/factory support playstyles, then pure factory or factory/starport support. They seem to be more playable already and changes to them probably affect bio-centric playstyles less.
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EPT
