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On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW.
i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type.
It's actually quite funny, because factory is T2, T2.5* at best and CattleBruiser, Carrier, Tempest and Broodlord is T3 or T3.5*. Technically a T2 unit should defeat a T3 unit only when the T3 unit is outnumbered(unless hard counter).
*depends whether you accept half tiers or not
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I don't think mech can truly exist without there being another change to the economy (destroying the 3 base cap for minerals) or by switching to single geysers (free-ing up workers for another base).
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On March 02 2016 20:54 Big J wrote:I'm going to specifically respond to this part, because I think that is the core argument you keep on bringing in favor of your idea: Show nested quote +I think the most common feedback i've gotten so far in this thread, reddit, and on stream is that a lot of people are saying it's slightly too strong and you guys are saying that thors are able to kill air units now.
THAT IS 100% THE INTENTION. The absolute intention of this upgrade is to allow thors to trade with tempests, carriers, and broodlords. I feel people are so used to seeing thors suck so badly, that when you finally see a viable mech anti-air unit, everyone is in shock that a ground unit is dealing with air counter parts. - They don't "trade". Those Thors are extreme hardcounters to anything that flies, maybe except for the Tempest. That of course can be tuned, but then you'll probably have to except that you need to make vikings again against Tempests or Carriers or Broodlords. Which seems to be exactly what you want to avoid.
- Thors don't have a lot of counters on the ground in TvZ. If you take away the broodlord, there is nothing that really beats the Thor supply for supply, hence, all you need to do is turtle into a lot of Thors. Once you reach them with a tiny bit of support, nothing zerg can beat it anymore. (you can try that any day in a unit tester; if you find something different, let me know; but that is at least my state of knowledge, and I'm doing those unit tests A LOT)
- The Thor in general has a very strong antiground attack. You keep on talking about the Goliath in your streams, but the Thor is not like that. It can defend itself rather well against a lot of ground units in the game. You don't get punished if you overcommit to Thors, you'd have to be a full retard and keep on massing Thors blindly for a long time so that you could get punished by a player that only made very few air units.
- The whole premise that there should be a unit that just counters air is wrong. What is it about air that you should just be able to shut it down hardcore? It's just your personal vision of the game! I for my part think that every unit should be viable in realistic scenarios. Making 5 Broodlords, just so that your opponent gets a massive advantage if he makes 5 Thors is not a realistic scenario, no player is dumb enough to play broodlords then. In such an enviroment the unit is just not playable.
1) They trade as in if your opponent only builds 100% tempest/carrier, thors will now be able to deal with that, whereas in the current game Protoss/Zerg/Terran can all build 100% air units which have the advantage of FLYING which completely invalidates all factory units. As mentioned previously, it is 100% intended for thors to be able to deal with air. And no, they don't extreme hard counter air. Thors still can die, try out the mod yourself - the Protosses i've had play on it so far still abuse mass air but the game is an even game now because Terran can switch to thors and Protoss has to build more ground units/immortals/gateway units instead of just two units (tempest/carrier) hard countering an entire composition (mech). This is healthy for the game because it allows mech to have useful production (factories) that don't suddenly become useless when a few air units hit the map (as it does on live).
2) That is 100% incorrect. I'm not going to question your knowledge of the game, but mass thors is literally terrible against things like roach/hydra/vipers, and swarms of units, and ESPECIALLY lurkers. Remember, once again, since Terran is investing more supply into ground and has a viable AA unit now...Zerg will invest more heavily into things like vipers, ultras, and lurkers versus someone that opts to go for "mass thors." You're once again only looking at the thor upgrade itself, and not how it impacts the rest of the game. Will thors deal with broodlords now? Yep. Once again, 100% the intention to stop the "have to turtle here for 20 more minutes and make 20-30 vikings+liberators."
3) Thors have a strong ground attack yep, but you are not considering that with thors having this anti-air upgrade,Protosses can no longer only mass air units, which means more supply of Protoss is going into ground units like disruptors, collosus, and immortals which are incredibly strong versus thors. You are only looking at the thor, and not the impact that the upgrade has on the game dissuading the opponent from just sitting there and spamming 100% air units versus mech. Gameplay is 1000% more healthy and less "turtle bullshit" when mech can actually attack across the map and have an anti-air optino.
4) "The premise that there should be a unit that counters air is wrong." I hate to reply to that statement with one like this but put very simply - you. are. wrong.
Because there is no mech unit that can fight air in the current game, it means mech cannot go past 5 factories in any realistic game which enforces the "turtle bullshit" that no one wants.
OF COURSE there should be a factory unit that can shoot up - that alone will make mech viable because it means you can go up to 8-10 factories, and if you scan and see your opponent doing an air transition you can start building anti-air units and KEEP ATTACKING and be on the map instead of "oh he's building air now all of my factories are pointless and i must sit and turtle till i have the prerequisite number of vikings to fight his air."
It is not my personal vision of the game for mech play to be viable - it is literally what a large portion of the SC2 community wants. People want viable mech that isn't "TURTLE HORSESHIT" mech. But for that to happen, mech needs to be able to utilize factories, and have a unit that is producable that can counter air non-sense.
Otherwise, the opponent sees your going mech and they just start spamming liberators, tempests, carriers, broods and the game stalls out into the "turtle bullshit" game since every single tank, hellion, thor etc is 100% useless versus air units.
This thor upgrade addresses those issues, and does a hell of a lot for mech viability, most notably dissuading the opponent from ONLY massing 100% air units, allows someone going mech to have relevant factory production, and finally opening up about 20-40 supply to be invested into more mech units to attack and promote action instead of turtling into 20 vikings.
You CANNOT have it both ways. You cannot say you hate "turtle bullshit" mech and then when it's shown and proven (which it has been through this mod alone) that mech can be non-turtly...you then say "oh this is annoying he can actually attack me now and i can't just make 25 tempests to beat him with no brain)0.
5) TRY OUT THE MOD. TEST IT YOURSELF. To me it seems like you are just theory crafting, instead of testing the mod yourself.
I am still testing games with just this upgrade in the game, and have many replays already of how much healthier the game is when games are not forced to go to turtle bullshit when someone is playing mech.
I think a lot of people are going to be incredibly surprised and happy when i release these replays and see that mech can be made viable through one upgrade added into the game such as this one.
Honestly, the question to me and many people is: "will blizzard give a fuck?" Because if anything i think this version of the mod that has this single change alone has already been proven a success and shown that mech can be viable.
Please play some games yourself and then let me know what you feel about it. Once again, it does not matter how strong or weak you think this thor upgrade is. Play some mech games on the extension mod, and let me know your feeling about how it changes the flow of the game, how it affects mech for better or worse.
Once again, numbers are incredibly fucking easy to change, and myself and nice_username will be working to tweak the balance a bit when the full mod is done. What's more important is feedback on the design of this thor upgrade and whether or not you think it makes mech play viable and healthier in SC2.
p.s. Just as an anecdote so far from a TvT game i had two masters players play on the mod:
I had two Terran masters players play on the mod, one was playing bio, the other was playing mech. The guy that was playing bio started to do what people do on the current live version of the game - he started making x4 liberator production + mass bio.
Normally, if this happens the person going mech has to sit in his base and do nothing and mass viking/liberators/ravens himself.
What ended up happening in this game on the mod though, the person going mech made a lot of thors when he saw the mass liberators and he was able to start moving on the map and attack and not have to sit in his base for 20 more min spamming starports in vikings.
What this also meant was all of his factories remain relevant in the game, meaning he can make more mech units to fight on the ground and promote action.
This is just one example game. Mech is looking to be really viable and healthy with just the thor upgrade in the game. It really is quite amazing, and i hope more people try the mod to understand just how viable mech is when you have a unit that can shoot up into the air.
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On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type.
Imagine if Protoss had no stalker/templars available from the gateway.
Every single game you realize Protoss builds 5-15 or so gateways versus all races. But if suddenly there was no available anti-air option from gateways...it means once the opponent decides to make any amount of air, Protoss would literally have to sit in his base and turtle until he has mass phoenix, voids, tempests, carriers as those are the only units able to deal with air. All of the gateways he's built up the entire game now completely do not matter - as the only thing that matters is anti-air in that hypothetical situation.
That is the core issue with mech. Since the units that come from the factory suck so badly, you're by definition forced to turtle and sit in your base and do nothing if your opponent spams air - all of your factories are invalidated. That is NOT right, nor does it promote healthy or action packed gameplay to force a player to sit and do nothing and mass air to counter air.
The only argument people can make against that is "but avilo you don't HAVE to play mech! Go bio and make marines!" And those are the people that would be happy if every single game would be broodlord infestor until the end of time, or bio 99% of games until the end of time and i'm not going to bother responding to those people because they don't have the best interests of the longevity of SC2 in mind.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
THAT IS 100% THE INTENTION. The absolute intention of this upgrade is to allow thors to trade with tempests, carriers, and broodlords. I feel people are so used to seeing thors suck so badly, that when you finally see a viable mech anti-air unit, everyone is in shock that a ground unit is dealing with air counter parts.
You might be able to argue that thors should be able to trade equally with units that cost 1.5x more and take 2x as long to build. I don't agree, but you can argue it
when you start showing videos of them winning and taking half as many losses (so 3:1 ratio in units lost tab) it gets ridiculous. Not just because they can stomp all over that unit to the point of making it inviable in the matchup but because it can do it to every other air unit too while still being solid anti-ground
good idea, terrible balance
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Honestly, this just makes the Thor even more boring and 1-A. As much as bio is overspread, I'd rather see that then turtle to 30 Thors every late game from Terran.
I've stopped watching when HotS released, but decided to check out LotV. This is when I once again noticed how disappointing the Viking has always been at its original premise. It was supposed to be a superior replacement for the Goliath, but the latter doesn't need a long awkward pause when switching between shooting air and shooting ground. It does that instantaneously. Currently, Vikings take 2 whole seconds to switch from one mode to the other, even more as the AI needs to spread itself before landing.
I don't know if this was already suggested, but I think the idea from Tastosis in one of the GSL code A games is worth exploring.
Make vikings transform faster. Like way faster, in less than half a second. So that vikings can actually land in time to affect the ground battle and not just awkwardly finish landing when everything else is dead to their demise. Landed Vikings become Bio and are able to be healed by the Medivac like the Hellbat.
In order to increase landing time, the unit radius of the Viking in ground mode could be slightly reduced to avoid them from fumbling around too much while auto spreading before landing.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 03 2016 00:28 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type. Imagine if Protoss had no stalker/templars available from the gateway. Every single game you realize Protoss builds 5-15 or so gateways versus all races. But if suddenly there was no available anti-air option from gateways...it means once the opponent decides to make any amount of air, Protoss would literally have to sit in his base and turtle until he has mass phoenix, voids, tempests, carriers as those are the only units able to deal with air. All of the gateways he's built up the entire game now completely do not matter - as the only thing that matters is anti-air in that hypothetical situation. That is the core issue with mech. Since the units that come from the factory suck so badly, you're by definition forced to turtle and sit in your base and do nothing if your opponent spams air - all of your factories are invalidated. That is NOT right, nor does it promote healthy or action packed gameplay to force a player to sit and do nothing and mass air to counter air. The only argument people can make against that is "but avilo you don't HAVE to play mech! Go bio and make marines!" And those are the people that would be happy if every single game would be broodlord infestor until the end of time, or bio 99% of games until the end of time and i'm not going to bother responding to those people because they don't have the best interests of the longevity of SC2 in mind.
Imagine if Protoss would be able to defend mass mutas with gateway units...
You failed, sir. You need phoenixes against mass muta shit. Against airtoss it is really fucking hard to go ground toss(phoenix vs. phoenix wars). C'mon, Protoss has one of the worst GtA capabilities. Protoss had several patches on phoenixes because of mutalisks, Protoss received a special unit to counter broodlords!(which was originally designed to counter mutas  )
I cannot understand how a person with your level can make such comparisons. Especially Protoss has pathetic GtA, the only units that can be considered as such are templars and stalkers. Sentries tickles and archons have low range. We have to build air units too.
Don't use Protoss comparisons when you are so bad at it. The only MU where Protoss has somewhat decent GtA is PvT.
Edit: The same could be said about zergs to be fair, the best anti air in the game has Terran, though it's not in the mech(even though mines created the most hilarious moments of so few units destroying so much)
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ad 1) and in general: As I said, Tempests are still somewhat viable with this upgrade, so when you keep on talking about TvP you're not really arguing with me. Most of your experiences so far seem to be from TvP, which I do agree would need massive, massive buffs to factory units to make Mech viable. But in the other two matchups, not so much. Neither Zerg nor Terran has a mobile 15 range artillery unit, so if you buff the Thor to be fair game against Carriers/Tempest air, it's most likely going to annihilate Zerg and Terran.
ad 2) and 3):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7YtPZrF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5bkE3ou.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KRWgfuZ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/v5JFRWT.jpg)
35 Roaches + 35 Hydras against 20 Thors; That's roughly the break even point, which is slightly cheaper for Zerg in cost and slightly cheaper in supply for Terran So no, they are not terrible against such compositions, they trade quite evenly against a full surround.
Switch 2-4 Thors for 4-8 tanks and it's not going to be close at all, even with this surround.
@Vipers, I played around with them a little bit. I'm not sure if they are worth it. Blinding Clouds that land are still pretty good, but most of the vipers die before they reach the Thors.
Of course there are other units and maybe something like ravagers or lurkers may deal better with Thors, but in general, all those compositions lose quite heavily to Thor/Tank based factory deathballs. At least without the Viper, which feels very bad in this mod, because 3 supply + 200 gas to *maybe* get a blinding cloud before it dies is not worth it. At least not if the Terran positions somewhat properly.
I'm sorry if you don't like SC2 as it is, but there are ground compositions that require you to build air units to counter them at the moment. This is just how it is. The same way you can't play without antiair against air units, you cannot play without air units against powerful endgame Factory composition or a powerful endgame Robo/Templar compositions as a zerg. Not to mention that there are air compositions that you need to be corruptors/vipers that don't die just because you added 5 Thors to your air army.
And I'm not talking about playing the same way with the upgrade, such an upgrade has heavy metagame implications which is obvious. Stop treating everyone else as if they are just build order whores, we have enough of them in the game without calling the rest of us out too.
But for example, if you can fuck Vipers and fuck Corruptors and fuck Broodlords like that, how am I going to counter a Thor/Tank/Liberator army? I have nothing that really kills the liberators. I'm probably not even going to get close them with 13 range Thors and 13 tanks defending them.
OK, let's say you nerf the liberators so that they aren't viable either. Still how am I going to deal with something like 10 Tanks + 20 Thors + 10 Hellbats? There is no Zerg ground composition that beats that. The implication of your upgrade is that the Terran player should turtle once again, because though HE MAY move out now, it's much better not to move out. He gets a freewin if he does not risk an engagment with a midgame factory army, but waits for a massive Tank/Thor(/Liberator)/Ghost deathball in my opinion. At least, that is what my tests are telling me. Feel free to get some other strong players to play your map.
By the way, if you are interested in the Unit Tester it should be published on EU and AM under the name LOTV unit tester Jay/avilo update. Since I'm not that good with the editor, the Thor upgrade is unlocked by purchasing the Neonsteel bunker upgrade. ^^
*the upgrades are still bugged. I have no clue how to upgrade the vehicle upgrade effect to be +2 instead of +1(+1vs light) after the Thor upgrade 
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On March 03 2016 00:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +THAT IS 100% THE INTENTION. The absolute intention of this upgrade is to allow thors to trade with tempests, carriers, and broodlords. I feel people are so used to seeing thors suck so badly, that when you finally see a viable mech anti-air unit, everyone is in shock that a ground unit is dealing with air counter parts. You might be able to argue that thors should be able to trade equally with units that cost 1.5x more and take 2x as long to build. I don't agree, but you can argue it when you start showing videos of them winning and taking half as many losses (so 3:1 ratio in units lost tab) it gets ridiculous. Not just because they can stomp all over that unit to the point of making it inviable in the matchup but because it can do it to every other air unit too while still being solid anti-ground good idea, terrible balance
Video is a vacuum scenario bro. Carriers are not un-viable even with this upgrade in the game carriers and tempests are still pretty damn good. Play the mod if you're going to comment on it.
You and a few other people keep acting like you can't build carriers and tempests in this mod, sorta like the same people after patch changes think you can't do the old strategies. "They nerfed -1 adept damage, guess i can never build adepts anymore ever!" Which is completely wrong of course.
Play the mod then come back and you'll see how thors vs air plays out, it's not anywhere near as bad as you are blindly posting about. Especially when there are ground units like immortals involved.
The video i posted was a vacuum scenario that never will ever happen in a real game.
And once again, i do not care what you think about the balance of it because that is easily tweaked via changing numbers on the upgrade. The design of the upgrade is what i want feedback, and the only feedback is initial impressions + post-game thoughts after playing games on the mod.
Posting on the forums without even playing an actual mech game or playing versus mech on the map really does not help at all.
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On March 03 2016 01:16 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 00:28 avilo wrote:On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type. Imagine if Protoss had no stalker/templars available from the gateway. Every single game you realize Protoss builds 5-15 or so gateways versus all races. But if suddenly there was no available anti-air option from gateways...it means once the opponent decides to make any amount of air, Protoss would literally have to sit in his base and turtle until he has mass phoenix, voids, tempests, carriers as those are the only units able to deal with air. All of the gateways he's built up the entire game now completely do not matter - as the only thing that matters is anti-air in that hypothetical situation. That is the core issue with mech. Since the units that come from the factory suck so badly, you're by definition forced to turtle and sit in your base and do nothing if your opponent spams air - all of your factories are invalidated. That is NOT right, nor does it promote healthy or action packed gameplay to force a player to sit and do nothing and mass air to counter air. The only argument people can make against that is "but avilo you don't HAVE to play mech! Go bio and make marines!" And those are the people that would be happy if every single game would be broodlord infestor until the end of time, or bio 99% of games until the end of time and i'm not going to bother responding to those people because they don't have the best interests of the longevity of SC2 in mind. Imagine if Protoss would be able to defend mass mutas with gateway units... You failed, sir. You need phoenixes against mass muta shit. Against airtoss it is really fucking hard to go ground toss(phoenix vs. phoenix wars). C'mon, Protoss has one of the worst GtA capabilities. Protoss had several patches on phoenixes because of mutalisks, Protoss received a special unit to counter broodlords!(which was originally designed to counter mutas ) I cannot understand how a person with your level can make such comparisons. Especially Protoss has pathetic GtA, the only units that can be considered as such are templars and stalkers. Sentries tickles and archons have low range. We have to build air units too. Don't use Protoss comparisons when you are so bad at it. The only MU where Protoss has somewhat decent GtA is PvT. Edit: The same could be said about zergs to be fair, the best anti air in the game has Terran, though it's not in the mech(even though mines created the most hilarious moments of so few units destroying so much)
You missed the entire point of the analogy i was making, and protoss does have anti-air called the stalker, high templar storm, and archon splash. Sure, ranged phoenix are a hard counter option, but you do have anti-air options from the gateway. If those were not in the game the point i was making is that all of your gateways would be 100% invalidated.
My comparison was 100% perfect. Also, mutas/banshees/phoenix are an entirely different thing considering they are light units and very vulnerable to splash, whereas BCS, liberators, tempests, carriers, and broods are not as vulnerable to splash and in general stronger.
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On March 03 2016 01:44 Big J wrote:ad 1) and in general: As I said, Tempests are still somewhat viable with this upgrade, so when you keep on talking about TvP you're not really arguing with me. Most of your experiences so far seem to be from TvP, which I do agree would need massive, massive buffs to factory units to make Mech viable. But in the other two matchups, not so much. Neither Zerg nor Terran has a mobile 15 range artillery unit, so if you buff the Thor to be fair game against Carriers/Tempest air, it's most likely going to annihilate Zerg and Terran. ad 2) and 3): 35 Roaches + 35 Hydras against 20 Thors; That's roughly the break even point, which is slightly cheaper for Zerg in cost and slightly cheaper in supply for Terran So no, they are not terrible against such compositions, they trade quite evenly against a full surround. Switch 2-4 Thors for 4-8 tanks and it's not going to be close at all, even with this surround. @Vipers, I played around with them a little bit. I'm not sure if they are worth it. Blinding Clouds that land are still pretty good, but most of the vipers die before they reach the Thors. Of course there are other units and maybe something like ravagers or lurkers may deal better with Thors, but in general, all those compositions lose quite heavily to Thor/Tank based factory deathballs. At least without the Viper, which feels very bad in this mod, because 3 supply + 200 gas to *maybe* get a blinding cloud before it dies is not worth it. At least not if the Terran positions somewhat properly. I'm sorry if you don't like SC2 as it is, but there are ground compositions that require you to build air units to counter them at the moment. This is just how it is. The same way you can't play without antiair against air units, you cannot play without air units against powerful endgame Factory composition or a powerful endgame Robo/Templar compositions as a zerg. Not to mention that there are air compositions that you need to be corruptors/vipers that don't die just because you added 5 Thors to your air army. And I'm not talking about playing the same way with the upgrade, such an upgrade has heavy metagame implications which is obvious. Stop treating everyone else as if they are just build order whores, we have enough of them in the game without calling the rest of us out too. But for example, if you can fuck Vipers and fuck Corruptors and fuck Broodlords like that, how am I going to counter a Thor/Tank/Liberator army? I have nothing that really kills the liberators. I'm probably not even going to get close them with 13 range Thors and 13 tanks defending them. OK, let's say you nerf the liberators so that they aren't viable either. Still how am I going to deal with something like 10 Tanks + 20 Thors + 10 Hellbats? There is no Zerg ground composition that beats that. The implication of your upgrade is that the Terran player should turtle once again, because though HE MAY move out now, it's much better not to move out. He gets a freewin if he does not risk an engagment with a midgame factory army, but waits for a massive Tank/Thor(/Liberator)/Ghost deathball in my opinion. At least, that is what my tests are telling me. Feel free to get some other strong players to play your map. By the way, if you are interested in the Unit Tester it should be published on EU and AM under the name LOTV unit tester Jay/avilo update. Since I'm not that good with the editor, the Thor upgrade is unlocked by purchasing the Neonsteel bunker upgrade. ^^ *the upgrades are still bugged. I have no clue how to upgrade the vehicle upgrade effect to be +2 instead of +1(+1vs light) after the Thor upgrade
You just presented a vacuum scenario with literally 0% micro and no blinding clouds. I'm pretty sure even 2 blinding clouds in the screenshots you showed would tilt that very heavily into Zerg's favor.
You cannot comment on balance in a vacuum scenario.
Also, how does the situation you presented with that ball of thors vs only hydra roach differ from the live version of the game? The same exact thing would happen on live if you had zero vipers lol. Not realistic, nor pertinent to this thread.
I will most likely be getting some masters Zergs to start testing the mod pretty soon, as well as off-race testing my Z vs mech on the mod as well.
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On March 03 2016 02:10 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 01:44 Big J wrote:ad 1) and in general: As I said, Tempests are still somewhat viable with this upgrade, so when you keep on talking about TvP you're not really arguing with me. Most of your experiences so far seem to be from TvP, which I do agree would need massive, massive buffs to factory units to make Mech viable. But in the other two matchups, not so much. Neither Zerg nor Terran has a mobile 15 range artillery unit, so if you buff the Thor to be fair game against Carriers/Tempest air, it's most likely going to annihilate Zerg and Terran. ad 2) and 3): 35 Roaches + 35 Hydras against 20 Thors; That's roughly the break even point, which is slightly cheaper for Zerg in cost and slightly cheaper in supply for Terran So no, they are not terrible against such compositions, they trade quite evenly against a full surround. Switch 2-4 Thors for 4-8 tanks and it's not going to be close at all, even with this surround. @Vipers, I played around with them a little bit. I'm not sure if they are worth it. Blinding Clouds that land are still pretty good, but most of the vipers die before they reach the Thors. Of course there are other units and maybe something like ravagers or lurkers may deal better with Thors, but in general, all those compositions lose quite heavily to Thor/Tank based factory deathballs. At least without the Viper, which feels very bad in this mod, because 3 supply + 200 gas to *maybe* get a blinding cloud before it dies is not worth it. At least not if the Terran positions somewhat properly. I'm sorry if you don't like SC2 as it is, but there are ground compositions that require you to build air units to counter them at the moment. This is just how it is. The same way you can't play without antiair against air units, you cannot play without air units against powerful endgame Factory composition or a powerful endgame Robo/Templar compositions as a zerg. Not to mention that there are air compositions that you need to be corruptors/vipers that don't die just because you added 5 Thors to your air army. And I'm not talking about playing the same way with the upgrade, such an upgrade has heavy metagame implications which is obvious. Stop treating everyone else as if they are just build order whores, we have enough of them in the game without calling the rest of us out too. But for example, if you can fuck Vipers and fuck Corruptors and fuck Broodlords like that, how am I going to counter a Thor/Tank/Liberator army? I have nothing that really kills the liberators. I'm probably not even going to get close them with 13 range Thors and 13 tanks defending them. OK, let's say you nerf the liberators so that they aren't viable either. Still how am I going to deal with something like 10 Tanks + 20 Thors + 10 Hellbats? There is no Zerg ground composition that beats that. The implication of your upgrade is that the Terran player should turtle once again, because though HE MAY move out now, it's much better not to move out. He gets a freewin if he does not risk an engagment with a midgame factory army, but waits for a massive Tank/Thor(/Liberator)/Ghost deathball in my opinion. At least, that is what my tests are telling me. Feel free to get some other strong players to play your map. By the way, if you are interested in the Unit Tester it should be published on EU and AM under the name LOTV unit tester Jay/avilo update. Since I'm not that good with the editor, the Thor upgrade is unlocked by purchasing the Neonsteel bunker upgrade. ^^ *the upgrades are still bugged. I have no clue how to upgrade the vehicle upgrade effect to be +2 instead of +1(+1vs light) after the Thor upgrade You just presented a vacuum scenario with literally 0% micro and no blinding clouds. I'm pretty sure even 2 blinding clouds in the screenshots you showed would tilt that very heavily into Zerg's favor. You cannot comment on balance in a vacuum scenario. Also, how does the situation you presented with that ball of thors vs only hydra roach differ from the live version of the game? The same exact thing would happen on live if you had zero vipers lol. Not realistic, nor pertinent to this thread. I will most likely be getting some masters Zergs to start testing the mod pretty soon, as well as off-race testing my Z vs mech on the mod as well.
Of course, it's vacuum test. I even said that. You are also not going to get that sort of surround in a real game, there will be real Terran compositions too, real zerg compositions. But as I said, Vipers with this change are suicide units. You pay 200 gas for a blinding cloud. Or often, no blinding cloud at all (because idla/a-moved Thors outrange perfectly controlled vipers by 2 with this change), I'm not sure it's worth it. I'm not testing the spells properly, because a single player cannot properly test spellcaster battles for obvious reasons. But from what I've seen, they are so-and-so. Probably decent open field, probably in general a rather bad unit.
The micro performed was stuttering the roach/hydra closer so that all of them attack, as you can see from the third picture, the units are much closer than their maxium range.
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On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type.
Works for Zerg 
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On March 03 2016 03:26 Naracs_Duc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type. Works for Zerg
larvae aren't buildings?! 
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
And once again, i do not care what you think about the balance of it because that is easily tweaked via changing numbers on the upgrade. The design of the upgrade is what i want feedback, and the only feedback is initial impressions + post-game thoughts after playing games on the mod.
I gave you the feedback. Pretty good design but numbers way over the top. Huge range, damage and splash and even if you removed 1 or 2 of those it would be very strong!
also interested in seeing cyclone changes because they're almost always just 1 or 2 built in the early game to be annoying with or counter harass, not beyond that. The cyclone design never went anywhere
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On March 03 2016 03:41 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +And once again, i do not care what you think about the balance of it because that is easily tweaked via changing numbers on the upgrade. The design of the upgrade is what i want feedback, and the only feedback is initial impressions + post-game thoughts after playing games on the mod. I gave you the feedback. Pretty good design but numbers way over the top. Huge range, damage and splash and even if you removed 1 or 2 of those it would be very strong! also interested in seeing cyclone changes because they're almost always just 1 or 2 built in the early game to be annoying with or counter harass, not beyond that. The cyclone design never went anywhere
Fair enough, so far most people seem to have said similar things. I think it might be because people aren't used to seeing ground units able to fight air.
Either way, it has changed mech to be viable like it's actually quite incredible.
I think considering the tests so far, and how you and other people have said it's pretty strong, it could be good to reduce the upgrade range increase to 12 from 13. And split the upgrade into two upgrades, one giving +3 range, and one giving the damage + .25 splash.
And along the same lines, though i haven't tested vs Zerg yet at all, i'm assuming it will be way too strong versus broodlords. This can easily be addressed (if necessary) very simply by making it so the thor upgrade only does the extra damage versus mechanical and protoss shields - which addresses vs T air/P air without making it over the top versus broodlords.
Honestly, so far from testing i personally really do like how it changes the game to be more ground oriented and allows for trading between ground and air if the Protoss/Terran does opt to start massing air.
But considering the finalized mod will also have supply changes to air units, i'll probably have to tone down this thor upgrade further in damage since players will have less tempest/carrier/BC/liberators in their end game armies in the final version.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
Fair enough, so far most people seem to have said similar things. I think it might be because people aren't used to seeing ground units able to fight air.
Either way, it has changed mech to be viable like it's actually quite incredible.
From my POV, it looks a lot worse than adept before the shield nerf and -1 dmg. People were also not used to gateway based armies being able to hold their own against bio once stim finished, etc and i felt similarly about that.
It was a bit problematic in the early game but a lot of the community reacted very strongly against it, you included - so you can see the other side of the discussion as you have been there before
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On March 03 2016 03:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2016 03:26 Naracs_Duc wrote:On March 02 2016 21:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW. i don't think you should be able to win every game pumping units out of 1 building type. Works for Zerg larvae aren't buildings?!
/bow your argument so stronk 
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Wow, Avilo actually comes with a good initiative.
Yet the thread is dominated by trolls posting dumb one-liners and extremely flawed reasoning.
I miss the good old days when TL was still a forum in which quality was maintained...
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EPT
