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On March 01 2016 08:07 Toxi78 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 07:45 Big J wrote:
So, how is such a Thorbased Mech style supposed to be beaten by Zerg? The previous approaches were old Swarm Hosts (removed from the game) or Broodlords (the upgrade deals with that).
I don't see how you would beat that "once Mech gets there". Vipers are a good start...
No way. With this upgrade a fully upgraded Thor does 60 (splash) damage from 13 range, so 3 Thors one-shot a Viper (or a whole pack of it; Thor does 100% splash in its full radius and the upgrade doubles the radius). The Vipers longest ranged spell is blinding cloud with 11 range, abduct has 9.
I.e. a-moved or idle Thors will kill vipers usually before they can get off any spells. And even if they do while they are dying (the projectiles are launched before the blinding cloud appears), it will be a blinding cloud that at best covers 1-2 Thors. Nothing worth sacrificing 200 gas for.
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On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy.
I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following:
An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you?
It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core.
A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map.
This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me.
As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW.
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On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW.
this is exactly what a mech AA buff is trying to accomplish.
Players not massing air units anymore when they play vs mech but instead trying to pull them apart with multiprong aggression.
look at TaeJa vs INnoVation to see what happens when a player is constantly pressuring against mech instead of turtling to air.
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I think increasing the thors anti air vs capital ships would be very good for the game.
This could be a great change for terrans as u would see lots of diverse comps vs all races.Imagine Bio with thors vs toss late game if the protoss decides to get HT and Tempest.
Also the mech player would be able to use his starport for medivacs instead of vikings, witch would increase the action for the mech player
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How do you deal with multi prong agression? you turtle. How do you get a decent count of thors with fusion core upgrade and don't die? you turtle.
So yeah, so much fun, to beat this style you wait for the terran to move out, maxed on mass tank thor hellbat and base trade, or you fight and lose. No late game army should be unstoppable otherwise this is the result.
You can also all in of course.
BW mech had tank contains surrounded by spider mines and vultures roaming around the map. They tried to keep map control and playing to split the map in a favourable position. BW was so differrent and armies were always split up.
In SC2 if you set a contain you die to one warp prism or split too much and die right away in the front because its a numbers game and there is no proper disengage. If its not like this then its an OP late game army with a turtle snoozefest game. Even with the harass and base denial, in SC2 it becomes stale and very frustrating.
I have no problems if terran wants another playstyle, and while its a very abstract concept atm, i have no issues with agressive mech whatever it could be. But this is just silly.
Sounds like Swarmhost, skytoss, broodlord infestor, skyterran... you know it, stuff removed from the game (tempest HT is also silly but the game is normal till that point, also, it feels bad to call out because toss is underperforming).
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Every ground anti air solution can only address if air unit get address first.
At least the complain about mass air vs mass air must on par with tankivac.But right now we don't need to buff any ground unit because they already give us the tool.
I will post it again.
Liberator
We agree with you that the Liberator in low numbers against equal cost of enemy air units isn’t very strong, and that their anti-ground positioning play is very interesting. We also agree that this unit could use some help. Our current stance on the Liberator is to leave the AA in its current form (strong versus a player who is massing air units) while strengthening it’s anti-ground role.
Good job blizzard....................................sigh
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I would seriously like to see Avilo's change vs good zerg opponents. Avilo knows the drill and he does it on the ladder all the time; he sits comfortably on three bases vs zerg and slowly expands out. With this change, any potential attempts to siege him would be completely nullified. Broodlords are at 9 range and vipre's highest spellcast is also 9 range. On top of that, zerg's roach/hydra not only scale poorly, but the units also require infestors, vipres and broodlords to assist them.
Even with the chit plating upgrade, ultras do NOT do well vs tanks in high numbers. Who is Avilo actually attempting to fool?
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Remind me why the High Impact Payload mode from HotS was removed? Actually, I know why... Blizzard removed it during LOTV beta to replace it with an ability for Thors to self-heal. Then they removed this self-healing ability... and completely forgot about High Impact Payload, resulting in a straight-up nerf to Thors for no reason at all.
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Posted this in the Bnet thread, but I'll report here because TL is better than bnet
While I think Ground AA needs a buff for all races, I don't think this is the way to go. This makes the thor a little too good. With +3 range it will outclass all air units (minus Tempest) especially when you add in an increase of the splash against units that clump up as air do.
People always praise the Goliath in BW. Well the Goliath didn't outclass air units it was simply on par with them. So if you attacked with a group of guardians or Carriers the Goliath could fire back due to it having the same range.
It might even make the turtle mech more of a problem. If they don't fear siege units such as BL and now to a lesser extant tempest, they can take all the time in the world. Just because you have a unit that can deal with a threat doesn't mean you will go on the offensive now. You might be more inclined to let them throw waves of units at you know because tanks have the ground covered and now Thors can easily deal with air threats.
Here's a counter suggestions. What if the viking was moved down to factory and its ground mode was given a buff to make it more durable. With an upgrade that allowed it to transform into its air mode. I'm not a terran expect so I can't answer the following questions. Maybe you would have a more informed opinion.
It seems like with liberators now, vikings have fallen out of use in most cases
1. Would it overlap with the Cyclone assuming they buffed it like the talked about?
2.If they buffed its durability, would it overlap with hellbats as the "meat shield" for mech.
3. If it benefited from mech upgrades rather than air, would it cause an issue in TVT for units like Liberators, Banshees, and medivacs. In PVT would it shut down colossus or WP too hard?
Feel free to tell me this would be a terrible idea, but just spit balling.
I do think threads like this are good to spark discussion to good post.
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United Kingdom20282 Posts
On March 01 2016 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:Remind me why the High Impact Payload mode from HotS was removed? Actually, I know why... Blizzard removed it during LOTV beta to replace it with an ability for Thors to self-heal. Then they removed this self-healing ability... and completely forgot about High Impact Payload, resulting in a straight-up nerf to Thors for no reason at all.
Can't believe they actually removed that. It was added for a reason.
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On March 01 2016 07:10 FalconHoof wrote:
Liberators+Vikings+Cyclones+Thors+Turrets.... Mech is extremely viable as it is now; I'm curious what leads you to believe it's not. If I miss micro my air units just once vs Terran I lose half my army to splash damage.
Edit: I even forgot to mention widow mines lol.
That sounds like a wonderful game. Can I play it too?
On March 01 2016 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:Remind me why the High Impact Payload mode from HotS was removed? Actually, I know why... Blizzard removed it during LOTV beta to replace it with an ability for Thors to self-heal. Then they removed this self-healing ability... and completely forgot about High Impact Payload, resulting in a straight-up nerf to Thors for no reason at all.
#justblizzardthings
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I don't really understand this "mech anti-air" issue.
Terran has a LOT of anti-air options as is. 1-2 reactored starports gives you as more AA production than you can really afford. Marines are a cheap anti-air that can be spammed against most air compositions.
Is the complaint that you have to use non-factories to build anti-air?
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On March 01 2016 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:Remind me why the High Impact Payload mode from HotS was removed? Actually, I know why... Blizzard removed it during LOTV beta to replace it with an ability for Thors to self-heal. Then they removed this self-healing ability... and completely forgot about High Impact Payload, resulting in a straight-up nerf to Thors for no reason at all.
Because Blizzard likes to throw a dice for each SC2 expansion to decide which units gets in and what upgrade is removed. Just like the lurker. They didn't want it in HotS because it overlaps with banelings but LotV? LotV is fine for lurker. Also terran's combined mech upgrades, etc.
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On March 01 2016 07:44 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 01 2016 07:05 Charoisaur wrote:
The idea is good but the upgrade is way to strong.
Nobody would ever make air units vs mech again and if you can't make air units how are you gonna beat a terran who sits behind planetary/turret rings with mass tanks? Nobody should make mass air period, regardless of whether the opponent is meching. The counter to turtle tank should be 1) take whole map, starting with whatever you can on the Terran's side, 2) harass him every time he tries to move out, threatening especially with Nydus/Warp In. Don't forget that Corrosive Bile/Blinding Cloud/Abduct still exist. That's not possible with 3 base cap and we both know it. Also against a Terran who has bazillion turrets is warping kinda impossible. The problem isn't mech per se, but turtling players who abuse mech.
You mean 1.8 base cap?
Because if you try to turtle in 3-4 bases you are going to run out of resources before you even make half of a mech army and we both know it.
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On March 01 2016 10:28 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 07:44 deacon.frost wrote:On March 01 2016 07:28 pure.Wasted wrote:On March 01 2016 07:05 Charoisaur wrote:
The idea is good but the upgrade is way to strong.
Nobody would ever make air units vs mech again and if you can't make air units how are you gonna beat a terran who sits behind planetary/turret rings with mass tanks? Nobody should make mass air period, regardless of whether the opponent is meching. The counter to turtle tank should be 1) take whole map, starting with whatever you can on the Terran's side, 2) harass him every time he tries to move out, threatening especially with Nydus/Warp In. Don't forget that Corrosive Bile/Blinding Cloud/Abduct still exist. That's not possible with 3 base cap and we both know it. Also against a Terran who has bazillion turrets is warping kinda impossible. The problem isn't mech per se, but turtling players who abuse mech. You mean 1.8 base cap? Because if you try to turtle in 3-4 bases you are going to run out of resources before you even make half of a mech army and we both know it.
Do you actually ladder? There are multiple replays, including Avilos stream vs zerg that shows you can turtle just fine off three bases and slowly expand and control the areas outward. Especially on dusk towers and orbital shipyard. You'll have a small bank on top of that if both players don't utilize much harassment.
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One more mech thread and I'll puke, seriously.
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I honestly don't understand people's obsession with mech. It was cancer in HotS and this post is trying to make turtle mech come back in LotV. You'll excuse me if I'm reluctant.
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Things to consider:
a) lotv makes turtling extremely harder, on some maps pointless.
b) there are more counters to mech already in LOTV (even disruptors)
c) test out the upgrade and let me know what you think.
Just finished testing today and from the games i've seen played (all masters / gm level) mech is completely 100% healthier with this change in the game because you can finally move out on the map and attack, and if you scout P/T air transition you now can switch your production to thors/mines.
Not every Terran won today even with this upgrade on thors, including myself. Protoss still won the same exact ways, with mass immortals, tempests, carriers, but the games were 9 million percent better just because of this upgrade even existing in those games.
Just the fact that thors can fight versus air meant the Protoss player cannot only make 100% mass tempest.. I played two off-race Protoss games myself and felt the insane difference.
Normally, once i had 5-6 tempests i could make 100% more tempests and no other units. But thors now are scary enough, especially with mines and other fodder that if i made only 100% tempests i would die eventually or T would be able to push a base.
Keep in mind, i did not see a single Protoss start to make collosus or disruptors versus the more heavy ground army from Terran. Those units actually will be more useful when Terran is able to go mech like this.
My conclusion so far:
This change is really fucking good, you could still turtle (that wouldn't change regardless of any changes because it's the only way to play in the first place) but you also could now attack because moving out with upgraded thors means you can counter air much better which means all your tanks are no longer just auto-forfeited if they made 3 tempests lol.
The damage felt strong, but that is exactly as intended - to make the thor stop the mass air turtle bullshit.
The range most people said might be too much, and it probably is, probably going to lower it to 12.
All i know is just one simple upgrade alone impacted these games a lot and imo did make mech feel very viable without even any other changes to the mod yet. I'd highly recommend people test it out.
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On March 01 2016 07:07 Shin_Gouki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 07:03 Shield wrote:On March 01 2016 06:58 avilo wrote:On March 01 2016 06:55 Shield wrote:
Congratulations, avilo! You've made mech (thors) beat more expensive army. Clearly, you have succeeded in making mech from useless to OP. A) that feedback is not useful, and you're incorrect. The video is a vacuum scenario, 99% of games you will never have only thors versus only carriers, i made that video specifically to show you how the upgrade changes the thor. B) the upgrade is meant to make thors powerful versus air, because mech currently has no mech AA unit. I'd appreciate if you test playing against it or with it in an actual game. Trust me, after a few games (i've done a few already) it's not anywhere near OP, and if anything you'll probably think tempests are still too good regardless of this new upgrade :D (trust me lol). You fail to address balance though. Thors are built twice faster than carriers if Liquipedia is correct. And you have a lot of thors left after fight. How is this video supposed to show balance? Yes, it lets thors be a strong AA unit but it fails to make it balanced. This was 32 thors vs 36 carriers game. I can only imagine how fast a corrupter or mutalisk attack would be completely pulverized by this upgrade he currently has.
lol this guy won't be happy until Terran mech units can shoot nukes left & right from its abilities. To him, that's "fair"
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On March 01 2016 08:29 Branch.AUT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 06:44 avilo wrote:
Mech in SC2 has no unit at all from the factory currently that can fight versus massed air of any race. Liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, broods...name a unit from the factory that can fight evenly or beat these. There is none currently, which is why mech is utter garbage.
This argument seems to surface every time as a driving factor when the Terran mech fix threads come up. In my opinion it is a logical fallacy. I mech, therefore my playstyle must have an answer to all my opponents options just sounds broken to me. Just because it used to be like this in this other game? Take a step back for a moment and consider the following: An army that cannot be defeated in a direct engagement. Does that sound fun to you? It sure doesn't sound fun to me, cause you know how it's going to end before the game even starts. This is one possible explanation for blizzard treating mech as more of a support/augment role to a different core. A different way of looking at this is, games that involve one player going mech, tend to be very slow and stationary on one side of the map. This is a spectator's game, or at least the developers want it to be. Having nothing happen at all on one side, into a masterfully executed slow push that wins the game is hard to appreciate for many people. I know it is for me. As much as it pains me to say this, SC2 as a spectator sport, is better of without the kind of games, that come with pure mech compositions known from SCBW.
I think you should stop taking his post seriously. It's a real joke. That's like saying, I can't beat mass air of any races from pure gateway units, so it must be fixed until it can! That's how ridiculous what his suggestions are. Some techs - just aren't meant to do certain things. That's the essence of the game, and he wants to change that, for the advantage of Terrans. It's laughable.
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EPT
