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On March 01 2016 11:03 Tenks wrote:
I honestly don't understand people's obsession with mech. It was cancer in HotS and this post is trying to make turtle mech come back in LotV. You'll excuse me if I'm reluctant.
What you just stated is exactly why i took it upon myself to start this idea. The reason you and others think mech is turtle bullshit is because air units completely obliterate mech ground aa to the point the only thing you can do if you attempt mech is to start massing air to deal with the other guy's air.
Think about it like this: you have 8 factories, and you scout your opponent making 4 stargates worth of tempest and carriers. In the current game, thors, cyclones, and mines are absolutely trash vs those units. They do not trade whatsoever. You basically now have 8 worthless factories which is 100% of your production in that game of SC2.
Or better yet think of it this way - imagine Protoss did not have stalkers available from the gateway or that they didn't shoot up. Now i start building BCs/mass liberator...you literally cannot attack me until you start spamming stargate units as that would be your only AA and all of your relevant production. The game would be utterly idiotic in that state because you're basically forced to sit there and do nothing until you have relevant anti-air and all of the gateways you built the entire game are useless.
That's how mech currently is. Your only relevant production vs air units is your starports. Every one of your factories becomes worthless once tempests, carriers, broodlords, liberators, or bcs hit the map. It's really frustrating to have to sit there and play turtle bullshit into 30 vikings as much as it is to have to play against a guy that's turtling doing nothing for 30 minutes.
But the reason most mech T sit there and do nothing is because they know how bad mech AA is and that they need starports.
The thor upgrade i came up with is aimed at changing this situation, allowing a Terran to utilize all of their factory production to be able to counter air bullshit.
This in turn means P/Z/T cannot just spam their air and they will put more supply into ground units. Which in turn, opens up a lot of supply for the T to make ground units as well.
More ground units on the map means more harrassment on the map between both players and more fights aka more action and less turtling.
The mass air vs mass air promotes turtle bullshit because both players are forced to accumulate "just enough" anti-air to be able to screw the other guys air. And since air units have the inherent advantage of flying, every ground unit in the game just becomes obsolete at a certain point, except for units like HT with storm, ghost EMP, and maybe archon splash and such.
I hope that explains my reasoning for coming up with this stuff and testing it. It's definitely not to promote "mech turtle bullshit" it's to do the exact opposite.
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On March 01 2016 10:41 Laserist wrote:
One more mech thread and I'll puke, seriously.
This - not sure if you noticed Avilo?? But veiwer numbers have increased for GSL and SSL (the only competitions that actually matter in terms of balance - that is right! I said it.) The most elite competition in the world GSL Code S 2016 S1 had a perfect race distribution at its outset. And let us not disguise your actions - mech heads (of which you are like a hobo-gobo cheiftain) are not whining about tactics or the ladder meta, you are bitching about balance.
Are Terrans underperforming? Certainly not!
Whilst I appreciate you crying and trying to impliment something and get some data (as opposed to your previous tactic of just crying) it is time for you to recognize you are not a messiah (saving esports...lol). You making this test map and having a few random heads try it, is no different to a ladder scrub making a test map to test a new upgrade that does X on Y unit and stops Z from happening.
Get over it. Seriously. All you Mech heads out there, get over it, build a farkn bridge, value what is great in the game, and leave the bitching out of it...its toxic, non productive, clogs up forums and makes you look like a total asshole...
SC2 will never have mech like BW did - SC2 just does not accommodate it - FULLSTOP!
Get over it, and yourself.
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On March 01 2016 11:16 AxiomBlurr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 10:41 Laserist wrote:
One more mech thread and I'll puke, seriously. This - not sure if you noticed Avilo?? But veiwer numbers have increased for GSL and SSL (the only competitions that actually matter in terms of balance - that is right! I said it.) The most elite competition in the world GSL Code S 2016 S1 had a perfect race distribution at its outset. And let us not disguise your actions - mech heads (of which you are like a hobo-gobo cheiftain) are not whining about tactics or the ladder meta, you are bitching about balance. Are Terrans underperforming? Certainly not! Whilst I appreciate you crying and trying to impliment something and get some data (as opposed to your previous tactic of just crying) it is time for you to recognize you are not a messiah (saving esports...lol). You making this test map and having a few random heads try it, is no different to a ladder scrub making a test map to test a new upgrade that does X on Y unit and stops Z from happening. Get over it. Seriously. All you Mech heads out there, get over it, build a farkn bridge, value what is great in the game, and leave the bitching out of it...its toxic, non productive, clogs up forums and makes you look like a total asshole... SC2 will never have mech like BW did - SC2 just does not accommodate it - FULLSTOP! Get over it, and yourself.
It is going to happen, wheter you like it or not, since Blizzard has given its word on it.
The question now is how? and threads like this are a constructive way to do so. The buff maybe too much in its current form, but the fact that he wants to test it does a lot to move forward.
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On March 01 2016 11:03 avilo wrote:
Things to consider:
a) lotv makes turtling extremely harder, on some maps pointless.
b) there are more counters to mech already in LOTV (even disruptors)
c) test out the upgrade and let me know what you think.
Just finished testing today and from the games i've seen played (all masters / gm level) mech is completely 100% healthier with this change in the game because you can finally move out on the map and attack, and if you scout P/T air transition you now can switch your production to thors/mines.
Not every Terran won today even with this upgrade on thors, including myself. Protoss still won the same exact ways, with mass immortals, tempests, carriers, but the games were 9 million percent better just because of this upgrade even existing in those games.
Just the fact that thors can fight versus air meant the Protoss player cannot only make 100% mass tempest.. I played two off-race Protoss games myself and felt the insane difference.
Normally, once i had 5-6 tempests i could make 100% more tempests and no other units. But thors now are scary enough, especially with mines and other fodder that if i made only 100% tempests i would die eventually or T would be able to push a base.
Keep in mind, i did not see a single Protoss start to make collosus or disruptors versus the more heavy ground army from Terran. Those units actually will be more useful when Terran is able to go mech like this.
My conclusion so far:
This change is really fucking good, you could still turtle (that wouldn't change regardless of any changes because it's the only way to play in the first place) but you also could now attack because moving out with upgraded thors means you can counter air much better which means all your tanks are no longer just auto-forfeited if they made 3 tempests lol.
The damage felt strong, but that is exactly as intended - to make the thor stop the mass air turtle bullshit.
The range most people said might be too much, and it probably is, probably going to lower it to 12.
All i know is just one simple upgrade alone impacted these games a lot and imo did make mech feel very viable without even any other changes to the mod yet. I'd highly recommend people test it out.
Thank you for acknowledging that turtling is viable, which is the main issue of what you're proposing. Your tests today were not only a small sample size with questionable skill levels, but half of those TvPs had the terran only massing Thors vs more diverse protoss armies. What's sad is the fact that thors were doing very well against the more diversified protoss armies... the Goliath came no where near as close as potentially good you're attempting to make the thor. You also haven't even attempted various all ins or methods the terran would utilize in a standard ladder game (then again, I admit I only saw two games personally).
You also showed a replay of a TvP you did where you scanned the tosses sky transition in advanced, but you refused to use the options available to mech terran claiming that going air units means you're massing air vs air. If the toss has to stop producing gateway units and start building star gates to counter your play, why should you still be catered to just your one production building?
In bw, if a terran needed to stop early mutalisks, players like sky high would go for valkyrie openers and not Goliath openers btw.
You have this very odd double standard of wanting tosses and zergs to be as micro and macro intensive as possible while the terran can comfortably build two to three units and always be successful. All of the korean Terran's don't seem to have half of the complaints as you do when it comes to mech.
Also, stop with this "people only want bio to be viable" crusade. Terran has a way more dynamic playstyle compared to tosses "I hope I don't die before late game" and zergs "what bullshit can I attempt to prevent the critical mass of mech."
You also were very reluctant to try any TvZs with this new map. I could only wonder why you would attempt to avoid that match up...
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On March 01 2016 11:21 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 11:16 AxiomBlurr wrote:On March 01 2016 10:41 Laserist wrote:
One more mech thread and I'll puke, seriously. This - not sure if you noticed Avilo?? But veiwer numbers have increased for GSL and SSL (the only competitions that actually matter in terms of balance - that is right! I said it.) The most elite competition in the world GSL Code S 2016 S1 had a perfect race distribution at its outset. And let us not disguise your actions - mech heads (of which you are like a hobo-gobo cheiftain) are not whining about tactics or the ladder meta, you are bitching about balance. Are Terrans underperforming? Certainly not! Whilst I appreciate you crying and trying to impliment something and get some data (as opposed to your previous tactic of just crying) it is time for you to recognize you are not a messiah (saving esports...lol). You making this test map and having a few random heads try it, is no different to a ladder scrub making a test map to test a new upgrade that does X on Y unit and stops Z from happening. Get over it. Seriously. All you Mech heads out there, get over it, build a farkn bridge, value what is great in the game, and leave the bitching out of it...its toxic, non productive, clogs up forums and makes you look like a total asshole... SC2 will never have mech like BW did - SC2 just does not accommodate it - FULLSTOP! Get over it, and yourself. It is going to happen, wheter you like it or not, since Blizzard has given its word on it. The question now is how? and threads like this are a constructive way to do so. The buff maybe too much in its current form, but the fact that he wants to test it does a lot to move forward.
Lol, Blizzard's word is as strong as a 5 year old girl with down syndrome lost solo in the Sahara desert. Since SC2 came out Blizzard have been giving their word on mech...
And Just to demostrate how extreme Avilo is; his opinion on the original cyclone was (and I quote): 'Slightly OP'
HAHHAHAHAHAHAH....do not encourage this guy please.
User was warned for this post
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They should heavily buff mech against Toss, so the match would be even, with both players building a death ball with 150 apm and then amoving out.
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.... The biggest revelation of my day is that Avilo is pretty much the Donald Trump of the Starcraft community.
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On March 01 2016 11:14 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 11:03 Tenks wrote:
I honestly don't understand people's obsession with mech. It was cancer in HotS and this post is trying to make turtle mech come back in LotV. You'll excuse me if I'm reluctant. Think about it like this: you have 8 factories, and you scout your opponent making 4 stargates worth of tempest and carriers. In the current game, thors, cyclones, and mines are absolutely trash vs those units. They do not trade whatsoever. You basically now have 8 worthless factories which is 100% of your production in that game of SC2.
I feel you should be exploring ideas with the Cyclone to fix the mech ground-to-air problem since that was the reason for it's introduction. If mech ground-to-(armored)air is failing that is a short coming of the Cyclone. Possibly to address your concerns they could look into a lock-on upgrade to make it so they have similar (but not quite as much) range as Tempest. Right now the Cyclone's design is an utter failure since the only use they ever get use is building 1 or 2 in the early game to defend.
Your defense was well versed. I just believe in LotV to succeed as Terran you simply mix units from all your production. Pure bio is just as dead as pure mech.
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On March 01 2016 11:53 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 11:14 avilo wrote:On March 01 2016 11:03 Tenks wrote:
I honestly don't understand people's obsession with mech. It was cancer in HotS and this post is trying to make turtle mech come back in LotV. You'll excuse me if I'm reluctant. Think about it like this: you have 8 factories, and you scout your opponent making 4 stargates worth of tempest and carriers. In the current game, thors, cyclones, and mines are absolutely trash vs those units. They do not trade whatsoever. You basically now have 8 worthless factories which is 100% of your production in that game of SC2. I feel you should be exploring ideas with the Cyclone to fix the mech ground-to-air problem since that was the reason for it's introduction. If mech ground-to-(armored)air is failing that is a short coming of the Cyclone. Possibly to address your concerns they could look into a lock-on upgrade to make it so they have similar (but not quite as much) range as Tempest. Right now the Cyclone's design is an utter failure since the only use they ever get use is building 1 or 2 in the early game to defend. Your defense was well versed. I just believe in LotV to succeed as Terran you simply mix units from all your production. Pure bio is just as dead as pure mech.
Well said.
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Cyclone only weak vs T3 air units beside BC........It eats alive the rest.
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Hi avilo. Here are a few of my thoughts, correct me if i'm wrong:
I like the Ballistic upgrade idea, but it does seems a little bit too strong. I think the Mech idea should be a composition involving both Starports and Factories ( even with the weapon upgrade seperated ). Viking should be a must if you want to properly control Air, Thor can be a good support unit to mix in, it shouldn't be the only AA
I would make the upgrade so that it would increase both AA range of Thor and Viking, damage unaffected (Viking could be sightly nerfed).
And another cheap upgrade to make thor able to shoot both ground and air at the same time.
I'm no real pro, just want to share some idea that might be viable.
P/s: the cyclone shouldn't be the AA solution because it's vunerable in a big battle and more suited for utility.
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On March 01 2016 11:53 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 11:14 avilo wrote:On March 01 2016 11:03 Tenks wrote:
I honestly don't understand people's obsession with mech. It was cancer in HotS and this post is trying to make turtle mech come back in LotV. You'll excuse me if I'm reluctant. Think about it like this: you have 8 factories, and you scout your opponent making 4 stargates worth of tempest and carriers. In the current game, thors, cyclones, and mines are absolutely trash vs those units. They do not trade whatsoever. You basically now have 8 worthless factories which is 100% of your production in that game of SC2. I feel you should be exploring ideas with the Cyclone to fix the mech ground-to-air problem since that was the reason for it's introduction. If mech ground-to-(armored)air is failing that is a short coming of the Cyclone. Possibly to address your concerns they could look into a lock-on upgrade to make it so they have similar (but not quite as much) range as Tempest. Right now the Cyclone's design is an utter failure since the only use they ever get use is building 1 or 2 in the early game to defend. Your defense was well versed. I just believe in LotV to succeed as Terran you simply mix units from all your production. Pure bio is just as dead as pure mech.
We are, there will be a cyclone slight re-design to purpose it as more of an anti-air unit, along with a hydralisk hive tech upgrade that allows the hydralisk 1 extra range and auto-attacks split to two targets (air only)- to alleviate the same issue ZvP that there is with mech - ground anti-air sucks (the hydra in this case).
This will help similarly against the mass tempest/hightemplar/carrier situation since hydralisk attacks will split to two interceptors instead of 1, or two voids, or two tempests, etc. Less reliance on vipers/corruptors, and a slightly buffed but accessible late game option of the hydra.
Along the same lines, the final version of this mod will have supply increases on almost all of the OP air units currently in the game - vipers, ravens, liberators, BCS, tempests, carriers, and broodlords will all have a supply increase overall to help alleviate the mass air stalemate situations and put more power back into the hands of ground mech, and hydralisks vs air.
Not really looking to change the stats of any of those units - just simply supply increases making it so if a player decides to mass air he'll intrinsically be at a disadvantage against a player that is massing pure ground and attacking because the attacking player will be able to commit more supply into a bigger army, and the guy turtling into the sky deathball won't be able to get as many air units - which indirectly makes all ground anti-air stronger because there will be more of it 
I don't mention Protoss much in terms of ground anti-air because Protoss already has that in the form of psi storm (splash), archons (splash), and mass blink stalkers (efficient with micro).
With all of those changes above, air will be weaker, and games in this mod will trend back to ground vs ground affairs with air used for mostly harassment or specific cases rather than just simply "mass your race's OP air unit." Obviously i will tone back the Thor upgrade that was tested today and was the only thing tested on the current mod.
The reason i tested this version of the thor upgrade is to really see what happens when you give power back to mech anti-air forcing games to be more action and trade oriented via ground units.
Obviously the Thor upgrade will be toned back after we tweak the supply of all of the air units considering how powerful this thor upgrade is and how it empowers ground mech. This is what you call iteration in development - having the balls to make changes, and then changes upon those changes even if they were over the top, or too little. Then you find the right spot.
If you are unwilling to even test or make those changes in the first place, then i feel the gameplay of the game will eventually stagnate (swarmhosts/brood infestor/mass ravens anyone?), and we'll have bio for 99% of games for the next 10 yrs in SC2 with mass liberators. Considering SC2 is a game of strategy, this project was started with that in mind - that perhaps SC2 Terran should have more than 1 viable strategy, maybe perhaps at least 2 in terms of bio or mech. People can have their own opinion on this, but it will increase the longevity of SC2 if there are more strategies viable and available to players, and a lot of people want to see viable mech play, and have wanted it for years.
So onward we go with this. Thanks for the feedback, myself and nice_username will let you guys know when the final version is ready for testing, this one was specifically to get feedback on this thor change and see how it plays in the game - once again, from the games i've seen it really empowers factory based mech in a healthy way allowing mech to attack and not have to sit there and commit 5 million supply into vikings and turtle for 30 more minutes just because the other guy made tempests.
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On March 01 2016 08:07 Toxi78 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 07:45 Big J wrote:
So, how is such a Thorbased Mech style supposed to be beaten by Zerg? The previous approaches were old Swarm Hosts (removed from the game) or Broodlords (the upgrade deals with that).
I don't see how you would beat that "once Mech gets there". Vipers are a good start...
Thors outrange them with this upgrade  and they cost the same gas
Don't see what the difference between turtling to mass liberator and turtling to mass thor is tbh
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People always talk about turtling but fail to realize that this is also something that can be quite easily be alleviated by changing the lay-outs of maps!!
Create thirds and fourths that are further away from the main and experiment with the amount of open space around them, the amount of ramps or even the amount of airspace (I've always wondered what blocking air movement would be like in a game like Sc2 => for example a huge cliff behind a mineral line preventing air units from coming in the back, but allowing them to come in from the sides).
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avilo, sometimes i think you are a lunatic. but i really like how you try so hard to make stuff work and take the time to offer different improvements. keep it up!
avilo, please test cyclone changes next. i feel like cyclone needs a real good look. why not make the cyclone the "goliath" of sc2 instead of the thor?
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On March 01 2016 09:41 Empirimancer wrote:Remind me why the High Impact Payload mode from HotS was removed? Actually, I know why... Blizzard removed it during LOTV beta to replace it with an ability for Thors to self-heal. Then they removed this self-healing ability... and completely forgot about High Impact Payload, resulting in a straight-up nerf to Thors for no reason at all.
It's a bad habit blizzard has. They only look forward with unit edits, never backwards. They could gain a lot of knowledge looking back and seeing (because the games changed) what would work now that was either useless or op before.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 01 2016 15:40 B-royal wrote:
People always talk about turtling but fail to realize that this is also something that can be quite easily be alleviated by changing the lay-outs of maps!!
Create thirds and fourths that are further away from the main and experiment with the amount of open space around them, the amount of ramps or even the amount of airspace (I've always wondered what blocking air movement would be like in a game like Sc2 => for example a huge cliff behind a mineral line preventing air units from coming in the back, but allowing them to come in from the sides).
Then you have problem with immobile armies of Protoss. Basically the thing that Protss players complained about ages was still not changed. If you want more research check some PvTs on KSS from HotS. (and not, compared to ferrarivacs adepts are not mobile)
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These threads are getting old and stupid. As the first few posts point out this sort of stuff falls flat in terms of a general balance approach and these vacuum responses are hilarious because you, are in effect, attempting to create a vacuum resolution to the only types of games you want (mech). Sadly, you are apparently blind to the fact of how good liberators are with standard infantry units right now in the game and instead want to play it your way. Well, you can keep wishing, but if anything, things like liberators and tank drops are only going to get nerfed as even mentioned in the latest balance things by DK.
The game doesn't care about how you want it to be played. These threads are more or less utterly pointless.
ps: going mass carriers on 2 base isn't viable anymore! It used to be! Poo beat QXC on delta quadrant, or whatever that stupid map in HotS, was with it! I'm going to petition Blizzard to buff carriers, pheonix, vr, oracles and even tempests because carriers are clearly too shitty right now! > this thread.
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On March 01 2016 11:21 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2016 11:16 AxiomBlurr wrote:On March 01 2016 10:41 Laserist wrote:
One more mech thread and I'll puke, seriously. This - not sure if you noticed Avilo?? But veiwer numbers have increased for GSL and SSL (the only competitions that actually matter in terms of balance - that is right! I said it.) The most elite competition in the world GSL Code S 2016 S1 had a perfect race distribution at its outset. And let us not disguise your actions - mech heads (of which you are like a hobo-gobo cheiftain) are not whining about tactics or the ladder meta, you are bitching about balance. Are Terrans underperforming? Certainly not! Whilst I appreciate you crying and trying to impliment something and get some data (as opposed to your previous tactic of just crying) it is time for you to recognize you are not a messiah (saving esports...lol). You making this test map and having a few random heads try it, is no different to a ladder scrub making a test map to test a new upgrade that does X on Y unit and stops Z from happening. Get over it. Seriously. All you Mech heads out there, get over it, build a farkn bridge, value what is great in the game, and leave the bitching out of it...its toxic, non productive, clogs up forums and makes you look like a total asshole... SC2 will never have mech like BW did - SC2 just does not accommodate it - FULLSTOP! Get over it, and yourself. It is going to happen, wheter you like it or not, since Blizzard has given its word on it. The question now is how? and threads like this are a constructive way to do so. The buff maybe too much in its current form, but the fact that he wants to test it does a lot to move forward.
This one?
We see Terran players fielding a good mix of Bio and Mech units—do we really have to split those two strategies again?
We definitely understand this stance. Perhaps Terran is more fun to play with and watch if there’s always a mix of the two like we’re currently seeing, and maybe we don’t need them to be completely split.
As for the Thor proposed by Avilo, it looks like Cyclone in early beta: slightly OP. :D
Seriously, it's so ridiculous broken that it seems to come from the campaign. In a way it's good that the one person of the community vocal about mech is Avilo, that way it remains clear that there won't be any more attempt to make pure mech possible by Blizzard.
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I don't like mass air being the ultimate lategame and ground AA should be buffed and air units nerfed. But to some point. If the overall theme of mech is staying defensive then either make it so their ground AA is about as efficient as the enemy air, so the player with more economy/better harassment wins. Or (if ground>air) give the opposing player ground based tools to deal with mech (this would be a lot trickier). Another possibility with this buff would be a huge nerf to thor AG attack.
Personally I think air armies should never win in open space. The only way to win would be a surprise or actually taking advantage of them being air units be abusing terrain (Mutalingbling vs MMM). The Avilo's opinions will be over the top, but the problem he is talking about is there and should be addressed.
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EPT
