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I really don't mind playing 1v1 SC2, but they need to make it fun first. Macro > Micro. Strategy > Micro. Tone down the build order wins, please! So many things kill you quickly in SC2 there's almost no way to play safe.
The game being so micro intensive is not fun for me, I'm not a pro, I'm also getting old and my APM is generally going down. Good micro should be something that enhances good macro and strategy, where you can watch someone play and say "oh his macro was on point and he had the right idea, but executed poorly and lost too much" etc. Instead what happens in LotV is that you're in micro mode from the get go against small and fast harassment units, that actually can snowball and just kill you, then if you get past the early stages of the game also having to constantly expand because the damn bases mine out so fast, you get into army fights where half the units have abilities you need to use. To me these things are frustrating to use and play against.
Honestly I'm having much more fun playing Age of Empires 2 HD. A game vastly superior to SC2 in my opinion. In that game it's actually impossible to die to an early game rush, because the workers are strong enough to defend it, but that also doesn't make the rush unviable. It is still a perfectly viable strategy, just not one that's going to kill your opponent. Just the game is paced in such a way, that it gives the defending player more than one chance to react. While in SC2 basically one blunder costs you the game.
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Less punitive game = Less skilld, and a lot of people criticized sc2 for not being enough.
Be consistent in your criticism please
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On May 23 2017 22:03 DieuCure wrote:
Less punitive game = Less skilld, and a lot of people criticized sc2 for not being enough.
Be consistent in your criticism please
In BW its far easier to turtle up and survive, yet its still considered more "skilld".
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I dont think bw is harder, yes macro looks harder but everything else not, that's why flash was good a doing a 20min build in sc2 but was out when he was multitasking
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On May 23 2017 23:11 DieuCure wrote:
I dont think bw is harder, yes macro looks harder but everything else not, that's why flash was good a doing a 20min build in sc2 but was out when he was multitasking
Everything else not ? Try army movement  and spell casting. Everything is harder in BW. Constant rebinding of groups, microing your army while sending workers to mine etc... but that's because of the limitation of the engine. Not because it's harder to do.
In the end SC2 and BW are still very different games.
You would gain a lot more in SC2 by doing a crisp build order while in BW you can win with a lesser army but better army movement (we saw that in ASL1 for exemple).
There is stuff that gain you edges in BW that doesn't in SC2 and vice versa. Similar games but yet very different.
I love both games and they are both hard games but BW is hard not just because the game itself is hard, it's hard because of a lot of limitations that SC2 does not have.
In SC2 you fight the other player. In BW you fight another player and you fight the game 
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Fighting against the game is easier than fighting against an opponent because it's all about routine.
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yet you also fight the opponent at the same time and the fight against the opponent is tougher as well
why did Flash not perform #1~ in SC2? I don't know, there could be many reasons. I didn't follow at all. But he and other bw pros shine not only because of their control, but decision making. Maybe they were trying to make some of their skills work in SC2, but were not rewarded by the game for it. That's pretty much how I felt when I played it. In short, BW takes more skill, not just mechanical.
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SC2 players and BW players have got pretty same EPM according to wcg stats, but there is more unexpected things in sc2 than brood war because you fight more your opponent.
Maybe WoL and HoTS was easier than BW but i'm 100% sure LoTV isnt. But it's not the same difficulty , so hard to quantify
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regarding punitive games : I don't think punitive is a feature that makes a game more skilled at all. On the contrary, if a game is not so punitive it can leave more space for styles and consistency, so in the course of the game the better player will win more often, and have more chance to show creativity which is a major component of most skills.
for example, Dark Souls is punitive using knowledge barriers. It takes more knowledge than skill to overcome these punitions. This was true in SC2 Wol as well in my experience.
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Roach ravager early LoTV wasnt that much punitive, bio is, wich requires more skill ? thx
Dark Soul is fighting against IA, sc2 is fighting against a real player
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I don't play LoTV, but if you understand logic you know that just because one thing is more punitive and also requires more skill it doesn't mean that everything punitive also requires more skill than anything less punitive. That's why I'm not saying less punitive automatically means more skill. It can leave more space for skill. Punitive can be a limiter for skill. This is a rebutal to "games more punitive take more skills", which is false in my opinion and experience.
For example, candy crush isn't too punitive (is it?) and it also doesn't take much skill (does it?). lolz
Typically, a sandbox game is not punitive at all and also doesn't take much skill, or focus just on a few. Like minecraft of the sims or what you want.
I have another example. I play shmup games. These are arcade games, you play against the AI like Dark souls. Like Dark Souls, knowledge is a huge component of success, because of how punitive they are, but they also take skills, to different degrees. Well, some games are so punitive, that they are only about knowledge (if you don't know, you lose immediately, if you know, you get through quite easily). Others are very skill focused + take knowledge, but have a punitive system that deny you the right to continue the game unless you do a perfect attempt. That doesn't make it take more skill, it's only more punitive. It's like you were playing SC2, if you get supplied blocked once, the game is over. Does it take more skill? no, it's only more punitive, it aborts the game and doesn't let you play and get better until you don't get supply blocked, which you likely still will like everybody. Then you will have to focus on that so that other skills which may be more interesting matter less.
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Rofl you base your argument on a solo game
If you can hold an allin or cheese without scoot = less skill because if you can do it your scoot can be bad, your control map can be bad etc and these are things that make a TY better than you, have to be good at micro vs micro + things around it
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rofl you are trying to prove that "more punitive = more skill" using examples, it doesn't work, you have to explain why more punitive always means more skill and you fail to answer my own examples as to why it is not true. To prove that something is false, you only need a counter example.
I gave you a SC2 example, done arguing with you you are too aggressive and ignorant, not interesting
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Your example is silly, you dont lose because you get supplied blocked once, but you do one mistake, so it's normal to be a little bit behind then.
And yes, it's about skill, less mistakes than your opponent = you are better, there is a lot of settings to be good at macro management and it's normal to be punished when you fail.
But yea, everytime like that with bw apologists, they are right, and sc2 players are wrong
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I meant this as a rule change for SC2 that makes it more punitive without it taking more skill.
If you played CS, and every hit kills you instantly, it's more punitive, but it doesn't take more skill.
On May 23 2017 23:59 DieuCure wrote:But yea, everytime like that with bw apologists, they are right, and sc2 players are wrong
describing yourself
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Why are you talking about RPG and FPS when it's a RTS thread seriously ?
My post are accurate for RTS, your for RPG so ?
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sry no more arguing with u, you give one liners and ignore my arguments, somebody gave us a AoE2 example which works the way I described for other games, I gave u a SC2 example, could give you more but not interested (RPG or FPS or arcade games arguments can be relevant)
if your cheese is less punitive, it can take the same skill, while allowing more possibilities in the game hence enhancing the strategic decision making skills which is the case in bw compared to sc2 which is more gamble-like for that reason and others
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He says he's having more fun on AoE2 because it's less stressful.
When you are not talking about FPS and RPG you talk about message from someone else.
You havent arguing once, just spread useless things.
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On May 24 2017 00:14 DieuCure wrote:You havent arguing once, just spread useless things.
describing yourself^^
aight bye
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You are a master of Sophism.
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EPT
