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On May 24 2017 13:30 FarmI3oy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 13:16 lestye wrote:On May 23 2017 20:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 23 2017 18:50 paxconsciente wrote:
wc3's team games are and always have been head and shoulders above S1 and sc2 and so has it's custom games, there is no denying it if you played war3 and s1+2 heavily.
the fact is, if wc4 is released and they don't fuck it up, new fun and interesting custom games as well as remakes will be played once again both by old veterans and new players, dota will have a remake in the wc3 engine(which will be hugely popular among the die hard wc3 dota fans) without any of the changes that dota 2 has brought, and it's well known that wc3's campaign is pretty much the best RTS campaign of all time.
wc3 doesn't shine a light to s1 or even 2 in some instances when it comes to competitive 1v1 play, although it's still very interesting, but when it comes to pure fun I haven't seen an rts that does anything better then war3 has.
war 4 would be a massive success.
so to answer the question, the future right now is war 4, any other rts will always be pushed aside by mobas and shooters, and sc2 is just staying alive like all RTS do, people still play aoe2 and red alert. Although it does make me wonder; why is Wc3 pretty much dead? Is it just, as a "fun" RTS, it is hurt significantly by being old and outdated as a game, and thus more casual gamers won't want to play it? SC1 is still around and loved, but WC3 is much smaller. If a WC4 came out and stuck pretty closely to the WC3 formula, could it be a massive success appealing to both casuals and competitive gamers the way LoL and OW have, or would it need to improve on the formula significantly? War3 isnt dead. It still has a big competitive scene, on par with the Brood War scene. I sincerely hope you are joking with that comment.
No. War3 has hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money and tournaments in China.
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On May 24 2017 13:41 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 13:30 FarmI3oy wrote:On May 24 2017 13:16 lestye wrote:On May 23 2017 20:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 23 2017 18:50 paxconsciente wrote:
wc3's team games are and always have been head and shoulders above S1 and sc2 and so has it's custom games, there is no denying it if you played war3 and s1+2 heavily.
the fact is, if wc4 is released and they don't fuck it up, new fun and interesting custom games as well as remakes will be played once again both by old veterans and new players, dota will have a remake in the wc3 engine(which will be hugely popular among the die hard wc3 dota fans) without any of the changes that dota 2 has brought, and it's well known that wc3's campaign is pretty much the best RTS campaign of all time.
wc3 doesn't shine a light to s1 or even 2 in some instances when it comes to competitive 1v1 play, although it's still very interesting, but when it comes to pure fun I haven't seen an rts that does anything better then war3 has.
war 4 would be a massive success.
so to answer the question, the future right now is war 4, any other rts will always be pushed aside by mobas and shooters, and sc2 is just staying alive like all RTS do, people still play aoe2 and red alert. Although it does make me wonder; why is Wc3 pretty much dead? Is it just, as a "fun" RTS, it is hurt significantly by being old and outdated as a game, and thus more casual gamers won't want to play it? SC1 is still around and loved, but WC3 is much smaller. If a WC4 came out and stuck pretty closely to the WC3 formula, could it be a massive success appealing to both casuals and competitive gamers the way LoL and OW have, or would it need to improve on the formula significantly? War3 isnt dead. It still has a big competitive scene, on par with the Brood War scene. I sincerely hope you are joking with that comment. No. War3 has hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money and tournaments in China.
My comment wasn't about the comparison to Brood War, but rather the idea that they both have "big competitive scenes." They are quite small in comparison to other esports.
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On May 24 2017 14:07 FarmI3oy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 13:41 lestye wrote:On May 24 2017 13:30 FarmI3oy wrote:On May 24 2017 13:16 lestye wrote:On May 23 2017 20:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On May 23 2017 18:50 paxconsciente wrote:
wc3's team games are and always have been head and shoulders above S1 and sc2 and so has it's custom games, there is no denying it if you played war3 and s1+2 heavily.
the fact is, if wc4 is released and they don't fuck it up, new fun and interesting custom games as well as remakes will be played once again both by old veterans and new players, dota will have a remake in the wc3 engine(which will be hugely popular among the die hard wc3 dota fans) without any of the changes that dota 2 has brought, and it's well known that wc3's campaign is pretty much the best RTS campaign of all time.
wc3 doesn't shine a light to s1 or even 2 in some instances when it comes to competitive 1v1 play, although it's still very interesting, but when it comes to pure fun I haven't seen an rts that does anything better then war3 has.
war 4 would be a massive success.
so to answer the question, the future right now is war 4, any other rts will always be pushed aside by mobas and shooters, and sc2 is just staying alive like all RTS do, people still play aoe2 and red alert. Although it does make me wonder; why is Wc3 pretty much dead? Is it just, as a "fun" RTS, it is hurt significantly by being old and outdated as a game, and thus more casual gamers won't want to play it? SC1 is still around and loved, but WC3 is much smaller. If a WC4 came out and stuck pretty closely to the WC3 formula, could it be a massive success appealing to both casuals and competitive gamers the way LoL and OW have, or would it need to improve on the formula significantly? War3 isnt dead. It still has a big competitive scene, on par with the Brood War scene. I sincerely hope you are joking with that comment. No. War3 has hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money and tournaments in China. My comment wasn't about the comparison to Brood War, but rather the idea that they both have "big competitive scenes." They are quite small in comparison to other esports.
Ah, I suppose you're right, my bad, I shouldnt say "big", I guess I should say "considerable" size. Certainly not "dead" though
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On May 24 2017 13:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:i luv how people throw around "dead". Hell , Super Tecmo Bowl from 1991 still has a living breathing competitive scene. ESPN Covers their big event in April. NHL '94 from September 1993 still has a competitive scene... Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 13:08 lestye wrote:
its very possible they dont make War4 because of that.
true, Blizzard does not cannibalize its own games. and they don't like splitting playerbases. look at how they are handling Overwatch. No expansion packs. No paid map packs etc. I can't see Blizzard splitting the limited RTS player base between 3 games, namely, SC1:RM, SC2:LotV, and WC4.
Blizzard isn't the old Blizzard you maybe once knew, anymore, if you didn't realize that up until now, you probably never will.
Also it's not exactly splitting the player base when they make you buy all of their games lol. They don't care about that, just wanna fetch some cash. As long as you're on Battle.net and spend your money there, they're fine.
Latest addition of Destiny 2 is just another proof of how Blizzard has changed over the last couple of years and adapted to industry standards nowadays.
Problem is they're still profiting from their former image as company so people tend to further throw money at them.
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On May 24 2017 15:49 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 13:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:i luv how people throw around "dead". Hell , Super Tecmo Bowl from 1991 still has a living breathing competitive scene. ESPN Covers their big event in April. NHL '94 from September 1993 still has a competitive scene... On May 24 2017 13:08 lestye wrote:
its very possible they dont make War4 because of that.
true, Blizzard does not cannibalize its own games. and they don't like splitting playerbases. look at how they are handling Overwatch. No expansion packs. No paid map packs etc. I can't see Blizzard splitting the limited RTS player base between 3 games, namely, SC1:RM, SC2:LotV, and WC4. Blizzard isn't the old Blizzard you maybe once knew, anymore, if you didn't realize that up until now, you probably never will. Also it's not exactly splitting the player base when they make you buy all of their games lol. They don't care about that, just wanna fetch some cash. As long as you're on Battle.net and spend your money there, they're fine. Latest addition of Destiny 2 is just another proof of how Blizzard has changed over the last couple of years and adapted to industry standards nowadays. Problem is they're still profiting from their former image as company so people tend to further throw money at them.
You're being way unfair. Blizzard is still a company that puts out games with exceptional high quality. Overwatch went from 0 to hero in competitive gaming (casual and eSports) in an incredible pace.
The thing is, even Blizzard can't change the market, only adjust to it. RTS started to go out of flavor even before SC2 was released. That SC2 still had such a massive popularity and still a huge fanbase to this day is just a testiment to Blizzard's ability to make quality games.
I like to blame Blizzard for a lot of bad decisions they made in my opinion, but they're still a great game developer.
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I should imagine a steady decline until the pro scene is not Blizz funded anymore and basically ending Sc2 as a current popular game. Hopefully followed by an annoucement for Wc4! I must admit I do have reservations for a potential Wc4, mostly due to the likely outcome of Blizz developing for WoW kids. Wc2 was one of my first RTS games and I really liked the game, but I enjoyed the changes in Wc3 and liked that game even more. I am just nervous about modern Blizz making a Warcraft game post WoW. Wc4 would get so many players though and the hype would be massive. Possible the last hope for a AAA RTS to rejuvenate the genre.
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They will do something that accompanies their next movie 
and that sounds like warcraft 2 movie to me ??!!!
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this thread gets better every time
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On May 24 2017 20:09 KrOjah wrote:
I should imagine a steady decline until the pro scene is not Blizz funded anymore and basically ending Sc2 as a current popular game. Hopefully followed by an annoucement for Wc4! I must admit I do have reservations for a potential Wc4, mostly due to the likely outcome of Blizz developing for WoW kids. Wc2 was one of my first RTS games and I really liked the game, but I enjoyed the changes in Wc3 and liked that game even more. I am just nervous about modern Blizz making a Warcraft game post WoW. Wc4 would get so many players though and the hype would be massive. Possible the last hope for a AAA RTS to rejuvenate the genre.
There is never going to be a magical game that rejuvenates the genre. Sc2 sold millions of copies and brought so many people into the fold and it didn't rejuvenate anything. A best selling game doesn't excuse the fact that other companies suck at making competitive rts that don't sell well.
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First of all, I think Blizzard knows the appeal of its Warcraft franchise (accounting for WoW, Hearthstone, books, movies and everything) and the anticipation level for a Warcraft 4 game.
I can really imagine WC4 being a XvX "arena-type" objective-based game with emphasis on teamplay, map control, small armies micro, and a bit of simplified base building. And would distance itself from macro-mechanics even more (maybe "auto-queues", no pylon building, no workers, etc...). I don't think a typical RTS with emphasis on "stuff that the audience don't really care to see" will work as any more than a niche game, certainly not as an eSports mainstay. People want the flashy micro, the team fights, the tactical handling of the map and all that.
If I were you guys, I wouldn't wait for WC4 to be "the next RTS".
Edit: In addition, I think we've all come to realize that actual long-term strategy is difficult to get right in real-time video games. I never found SC2 particularly strategic, although it's certainly tactical at times. It's very fun for me to play all the same, but I don't really see the strategic depth of it. In fact, I don't really know of any current RTS games that emphasize actual strategy. The outcome of the games seems to be based on the outcome of small localized events, rather than overarching plans made by players. It's quite funny to me that "strategies" are what Koreans call cheese builds :D. Some gameplans are indeed "strategic", but there isn't really any interaction between players on that level. At best you have some kind of poker-like rock-paper-scissors within a BoX. I'm willing to be proven otherwise with actual examples in typical RTS like BW, SC2 or others though.
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On May 24 2017 21:16 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 20:09 KrOjah wrote:
I should imagine a steady decline until the pro scene is not Blizz funded anymore and basically ending Sc2 as a current popular game. Hopefully followed by an annoucement for Wc4! I must admit I do have reservations for a potential Wc4, mostly due to the likely outcome of Blizz developing for WoW kids. Wc2 was one of my first RTS games and I really liked the game, but I enjoyed the changes in Wc3 and liked that game even more. I am just nervous about modern Blizz making a Warcraft game post WoW. Wc4 would get so many players though and the hype would be massive. Possible the last hope for a AAA RTS to rejuvenate the genre. There is never going to be a magical game that rejuvenates the genre. Sc2 sold millions of copies and brought so many people into the fold and it didn't rejuvenate anything. A best selling game doesn't excuse the fact that other companies suck at making competitive rts that don't sell well.
What make of crystal ball are you using? Something like Wc4 is much more likely to get interest in a modern market (if it follows in the style of Wc3.) I feel like heavily macro based RTS is played at this point (apart from SC Remaster which is targeted at a very specific region) but Wc4 could give that hero micromanagement that is so popular in modern gaming along with base building and more scope for epic play. If Blizz are not already secretly in early development stages with Wc4 then it is a big consideration for them. It will generate interest from multiple genres and multiple regions.
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On May 24 2017 15:49 Creager wrote:
Blizzard isn't the old Blizzard you maybe once knew, anymore, if you didn't realize that up until now, you probably never will. lso it's not exactly splitting the player base when they make you buy all of their games lol. They don't care about that, just wanna fetch some cash. As long as you're on Battle.net and spend your money there, they're fine. Latest addition of Destiny 2 is just another proof of how Blizzard has changed over the last couple of years and adapted to industry standards nowadays.
Problem is they're still profiting from their former image as company so people tend to further throw money at them.
this "old Blizzard" , "new Blizzard" narrative is nice and vague so people can slap it into any discussion and make it seem like its meaningful. Then the person employing this vague , slippery, ill defined narrative can insult any one with out ever actually engaging in meaningful dialogue while ignoring Blizzard's actions within the marketplace.
Blizzard's management of Overwawtch, Diablo, SC2 etc display their reluctance to split a player base in exchange for cash. The expansion packs for SC2 and Diablo were 2.5 years apart. Blizzard prefers to generate continuous revenue in a manner that does not split users via skins, voice packs etc etc.
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On May 24 2017 21:52 KrOjah wrote:
What make of crystal ball are you using? ... If Blizz are not already secretly in early development stages with Wc4 then it is a big consideration for them. It will generate interest from multiple genres and multiple regions.
i guess your crystal ball is more reliable. Based on how little money SC2 made from 2010 to 2017 compared to Overwatch, DIablo3, WoW, and Heathstone ... another RTS is not a reasonable expectation.
Furthermore, the # of Blizzard veterans who've left SC2 for greener pastures is a sign that EVEN THE BEST EMPLOYEES don't want to work on RTS games because they know they themselves can't make major cash by working on an RTS game. The Blizzard RTS team is filled with orphaned employees coming from dead companies that used to work on RTS games
SC2 is already on its 4th designer guy... Pardo, Browder, Kim, ????
When Rob Pardo's new company makes an RTS lemme know.
Does Blizzard hide the identity of its top employees in other games? Why are they doing that for the multiplayer design lead? Because Blizzard feels Kim received undue, unwarranted personal abuse that this community routinely dishes out and feels they are justified in calling for the injury of Blizzard employees.
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It is only about how many hats you have sold in the past month, blizzard want to get on the same train like riot and valve. hello overwatch, hello hearthstone. It is only making more money, less work for the money, logical in a business mind.
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On May 24 2017 22:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 21:52 KrOjah wrote:
What make of crystal ball are you using? ... If Blizz are not already secretly in early development stages with Wc4 then it is a big consideration for them. It will generate interest from multiple genres and multiple regions. i guess your crystal ball is more reliable. Based on how little money SC2 made from 2010 to 2017 compared to Overwatch, DIablo3, WoW, and Heathstone ... another RTS is not a reasonable expectation. Furthermore, the # of Blizzard veterans who've left SC2 for greener pastures is a sign that EVEN THE BEST EMPLOYEES don't want to work on RTS games because they know they themselves can't make major cash by working on an RTS game. The Blizzard RTS team is filled with orphaned employees coming from dead companies that used to work on RTS games SC2 is already on its 4th designer guy... Pardo, Browder, Kim, ???? When Rob Pardo's new company makes an RTS lemme know. Does Blizzard hide the identity of its top employees in other games? Why are they doing that for the multiplayer design lead? Because Blizzard feels Kim received undue, unwarranted personal abuse that this community routinely dishes out and feels they are justified in calling for the injury of Blizzard employees.
Well I am more about logically sound predictions than reading into the future and declaring my thoughts as facts. The only crystal ball moment I had was that Wc4 is at least being considered. And considering it's the Warcraft brand that can transcend conceptions on what is popular and what is not in gaming, I think it's a fairly reasonable one. You just seem to go on rather boring rants name dropping Blizz devs in sometimes random fashions. The good points you may have are tangled amongst a load of bs.
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On May 24 2017 22:47 CrymeaTerran wrote:
It is only about how many hats you have sold in the past month, blizzard want to get on the same train like riot and valve. hello overwatch, hello hearthstone. It is only making more money, less work for the money, logical in a business mind.
I don't think Blizzard is afraid to develop costly games or to go against the flow. I daresay Overwatch was challenging to develop and not really following any trend at the time of conception (TF2 wasn't really selling like hot cakes...). They're not hopping on some train like a third-grade dev studio because they can't do anything else. It's just that people don't want to play RTS anymore, simple as that.
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@JimmyJRaynor
First of all i want to say that you are the most negative person on Team Liquid. You have no evidence that Blizzard is not thinking of making Warcraft 4. All of your assumptions are out of the blue and have no proofs in it (even the interview with Chris Sigaety).
Mike Morhaine said that Warcraft 4 will happen someday. The only question is when. Here is the Link (you wanted the source):
https://www.pcgamesn.com/warcraft-iv
I asked Dustin Browder after this interview if WC 4 is a possibility and he said that they are thinking about it.
For the last time SC 2 did make Revenue and Blizzard is very satisfied with it. Its true that other franchises from Blizzard made more money but that is not the only goal for Blizzard. They are dominating the RTS Scene. Games like Dota and League of Legends came from RTS games and are now the most played games in E-Sport.
One of Blizzards goals is to dominate E-sports (Mike Morhaine said this sorry i dont have the source any more). They dont do it with Overwatch. They dont do it with Heroes of the Storm. But Starcraft did dominate the E-Sport Scene for a long time.
Warcraft 4 would be a possibility to dominate E-sports. Warcraft 3 was a huge success in Europe.
1 v 1 games are still played and not evereything is about teamgames.
Warcraft 4 could get Archon mode or more Team modes. This is not the problem!
Starcraft 2 was very popular.and sold many copies. The problem is that the game is good but that Blizzard made many mistakes and didnt patch the game often enough. This cost us many players!
In everey year companys are making RTS games or games with some RTS elements.
Halo Wars 2 >>>Did sell many copies
Dawn of war 3>>> Bad game but was in steam sell charts
Total War Warhammer>>> Has RTS elements and sold over 500.000 copies on day 1
There are still many games that will be developed for rts players but the truth is that Blizzard did the best RTS games.
These games are SC BW, SC II, WC 3
One indicator is that Blizzard will continue development of RTS games is the remastered version of BW. This is especially for the Korean Scene. Do you think they wouldnt make this game if there would be no money in RTS games? You were very unhappy about it and you said that you would like Blizzard to go in other directions and not rts!
I do know that there maybe 3-4 years untill we see WC 4 or an another RTS from Blizzard but it will happen.
At the Moment Blizzard has more than 1 secret project in development. One could be an another RTS because Browder moved away from Hereos of the Storm and David Kim from SC 2. They both only developed E-Sport titles for Blizzard which always had at least rts mechanics or like heroes of the storm WC 3 mechanics in it.
They will never ever make a mobile game or a singleplayergame which has nothing to do with E-sports. Blizzard has other developpers for it.
JimmyJRaynor you are the biggest troll here i have ever seen. Everey post about RTS games you make is wrong and negative. You have no clue about the bad state gameplaywhise SC 2 is at the moment. You defend Blizzard for no reason and you are happy to tell people that Blizzard wont make an another RTS. Which is false. Im done here an will never reply to a post from you again!
Warcraft 4 or an another RTS game from Blizzard will happen someday. The only question is when!
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"“We love RTS games but right now our focus is still continuing to evolve StarCraft II – and to the extent that MOBA games are RTS – continue supporting and evolving Heroes of the Storm. I love that there is so much passion and interest around Warcraft IV. I would love to see Warcraft IV at some point in the future, but that is not our current focus.”"
Would love to see it be made is not the same thing as we're goign to make it in the future. That's not really conclusive. ESPECIALLY since he says before MOBAs are an RTS and half of Team 1 are working on HOTS.
On May 24 2017 22:47 CrymeaTerran wrote:
It is only about how many hats you have sold in the past month, blizzard want to get on the same train like riot and valve. hello overwatch, hello hearthstone. It is only making more money, less work for the money, logical in a business mind.
You mean the entire industry?
JimmyJRaynor you are the biggest troll here i have ever seen. Everey post about RTS games you make is wrong and negative. You have no clue about the bad state gameplaywhise SC 2 is at the moment. You defend Blizzard for no reason and you are happy to tell people that Blizzard wont make an another RTS. Which is false. Im done here an will never reply to a post from you again!
Jimmy praises/defends Blizzards all the time. He just doesn't feel that they're not going to make it from a business standpoint. That doesn't seem overly negative given the state of the genre.
On May 24 2017 21:52 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2017 21:16 lestye wrote:On May 24 2017 20:09 KrOjah wrote:
I should imagine a steady decline until the pro scene is not Blizz funded anymore and basically ending Sc2 as a current popular game. Hopefully followed by an annoucement for Wc4! I must admit I do have reservations for a potential Wc4, mostly due to the likely outcome of Blizz developing for WoW kids. Wc2 was one of my first RTS games and I really liked the game, but I enjoyed the changes in Wc3 and liked that game even more. I am just nervous about modern Blizz making a Warcraft game post WoW. Wc4 would get so many players though and the hype would be massive. Possible the last hope for a AAA RTS to rejuvenate the genre. There is never going to be a magical game that rejuvenates the genre. Sc2 sold millions of copies and brought so many people into the fold and it didn't rejuvenate anything. A best selling game doesn't excuse the fact that other companies suck at making competitive rts that don't sell well. What make of crystal ball are you using? Something like Wc4 is much more likely to get interest in a modern market (if it follows in the style of Wc3.) I feel like heavily macro based RTS is played at this point (apart from SC Remaster which is targeted at a very specific region) but Wc4 could give that hero micromanagement that is so popular in modern gaming along with base building and more scope for epic play. If Blizz are not already secretly in early development stages with Wc4 then it is a big consideration for them. It will generate interest from multiple genres and multiple regions.
i was only disputing the idea that an RTS can come around that will "rejuvenate the genre". There's no precedence for that. If Warcraft 4 did come out, there would still be the same problem. You'd have Warcraft 4, SC2, Total War off to the side, and a bunch of Petroglyph games in the genre.
And my issue with your statement is that anything Blizzard will do will get interest from the modern market. It could be a Blizzard RPG or whatever. RTS has tons of problem as its not a very popular genre, its limited to PC platforms, and its overall very difficult and time consuming to make a good one.
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based on the interview provided i'd say this:
look for a Starcraft game that has action elements and strategy elements that plays on a Smartphone and/or Tablet. maybe one that appeals to the "Clash of Clans" type of mobile player.
now that the full context of the Morhaime interview has been provided i think its unrealistic to wait for a WC4 RTS game.
thanks for providing full context.
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EPT
