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On February 06 2016 15:25 CheddarToss wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2016 15:22 Foxxan wrote:
It has to do with the gamedesign. A cheese in this game is such an easy thing to do while the opponent cant really scout it properly either.
That has been the case since release pretty much.
If someone makes a cheese and the game is designed for you to be able to scout it, react properly and it require micro for both sides etc i wouldnt have any problem with this sort of thing but thats not the case its rng luck fest with little skill to execute things.
Its like playing poker in a so called e-sport game. Its bad design as hell + very boring
Poker is a skill based game. Luck is involved but not the determining factor. Otherwise you wouldn't have professional players. As for being easier to execute than hold. I don't think that that is the case in LotV.
Poker still has a large margin of luck involved.
And the better player can lose even with a 95% advantage.
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On February 06 2016 14:51 CheddarToss wrote:
I read so many times on TL forums users saying something along the lines of "I have no respect for player X, because he's a cheeser."
It seems to me that people think cheesing is not a honorable way of playing. Why is that? I can agree that abusing imbalanced stuff and being a Patch[insert race] is not honorable, because in a way it's cheating. But if the game is balanced why would one be more mad when losing to cheese than when losing in the late game?
I for one consider builds that involve making a bunch of units and just wrecking the opponent the purest and most honorable way of playing Starcraft. Back in the day I had the most fun using and watching Korean Protoss players use "bulldog"
vs Terran. Now there is a whole book of builds and I'm not quite sure which one I like the best.
Your name is CheddarToss. You should have zero problems!
It's part of the game. Why win in 20 minutes if he's vulnerable to an attack at 5 minutes?
Just be mannered and gl hf/variations to start. GG when you lose! If people harp on honor, chances are they never give honor regardless.
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There is only one way for your opponent to play a honourable game:
Play macro and then gracefully lose.
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Thankfully ladder points aren't determined by your opponent's opinion of your build.
People tell themselves all kinds of crazy things when they're upset.
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In my opinion, honor is just when you win using legit methods e.g., not using maphack or whatever to gain an unfair advantage. Otherwise, I don't care how people win. This is a competitive game, you play to win, not to please the other player. A lot of sc2 players are just super egotistical and don't realize that they are bad, not the game. It's funny how people will cite all sort of sources and twisted stats just to point out inherent problems within the game to show that they lost due to some sort of imbalances, and not their fault.
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I don't think cheesing is an issue, unless like cheesing is ltierally all you do, and you're not learning how to play the game. Like if you literally can't win a game except when you cheese because you have 0 fundamentals, that's a problem.
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because it takes twice the amount of skill / game sense to win a macro game.
/close thread.
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When people abuse something it's not their fault you can blame design wise or balance but you can't blame player.They wanna win only so no matter what they do it doesn't matter.
I understand why people hate cheese so much but they are blame wrong object.
// Same issue i found in CSGO: Casual player blame another hidding spot too much but if you don't check potential place it's your fault not their fault because camping .And if you can't accept the design wise go play another game ...LOL....
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i think you'll typically see the no-respect thing happen in a live report thread, or in talking about specific balance in a thread dedicated to it. if someone sees a thread about a unit they have quips about, they're probably going to peek in to see what's boiling, and to add their 2c of frustrations.
i have a couple points to make about maybe why that is.
i think players tend to put themselves on a pedestal of good and proper play. speaking from previous experiences, if i'm putting a lot of effort into setting something up ingame and i end up getting pulled apart in the meanwhile (i can't keep up with the action at this point), it's going to all seem a bit annoying and i can only ever put it on the player or what allows him to do what he did. drops, tech switches, certain harass are the usual suspects. part of it is coming to terms with a more well-rounded playstyle which actually suits the pacing of the game better, as opposed to doing whatever i think and feel is correct. this happens in all sorts of sports while you're training and playing better opponents.
they move, think, and play more efficiently than you do, but you can do certain shots, tricks, or setups that put you on a good fighting level. your criticisms of their play are that they are lesser, minus the fact that there are very visible and negative impacts that your techniques have on your play as well.
that said, to get better at this game unless you're a very conditioned and motivated introverted kind of player, you need to be discussing the game with others, and going over replays and certain situations until you become more comfortable with them. addressing your problem points is another notch on the belt for a faster, more aware and less self-absorbed you.
where does honour or respect lay in all of this?
the lack of respect for another player is all in the immediate differences you see before and after the game. it's much more rare to discuss the game like actual competitors and human beings to both learn from the experience. you take a guy who is hard into crossfit, and some guy who is into bodybuilding and there will inherently be many disagreements about the proper methods. it's obvious. they're living the differences each and every day while they train and practice with those thoughts in mind, even if they aren't thinking about the other side of the fence.
when you cheese and disallow a player from playing their legos/pieces exactly the way they wanted to (often times practice to do so), they suddenly have to change and problem solve a whole new situation. there is negativity to the wider situation at an outset.
when you defy their expectations, you earn respect or admonishment, intially.
especially with the way how online anonymity or online interaction tends to be between gamers, it's very easy to just exchange rude words and move on immediately.
unfortunately, this isn't how you make friends online or in the real world, it isn't how you sort differences, and the way the situation is played out is entirely acceptable now.
understanding why that is, or where it stems from is another sore point that people generally don't want to think about because it relates to their very own mental handicaps.
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On February 06 2016 15:22 Foxxan wrote:
Nice trolling man
I dont know it was trolling or sarcasm, but the guy has absolutely right. Cheese is the part of the game, it always was in BW and I dont see a reason why it shouldnt be a part of SC2. As you said, the only concern should be balance - and so it must only be possible to stop it with proper play (scouting, in the first place). And if there is such a situation that cheese is too difficult to stop, that's the designer who is in fault, not the player who abuse it. If you are anable to accept your loss becouse the oponent surprised/outsmarted you, go play Counter Strike and spare me your whining. Or play only with guys who you know they dont cheese. This game isnt made to make you feel superior for "fair" winning or "fair" playing.
There is no honour in crying like a little baby.
On February 06 2016 17:14 lestye wrote:
I don't think cheesing is an issue, unless like cheesing is ltierally all you do, and you're not learning how to play the game. Like if you literally can't win a game except when you cheese because you have 0 fundamentals, that's a problem.
No, its ok too. If the player cant manage with mechanics, he must relly on ruse and surprise factor. The guy who is cheesing all games the same way will be losing most of times anyway. If he is creative enouth to pull off cheesy in many ways and he is winning with that, I respect him for creativity.
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There is absolutely nothing dishourable about cheese.
Sometimes it can be a let down for viewers, sometimes you see exactly what you hate to play against on ladder. Both ways it just raises the levels of salt.
There is also the (often correct) notion that when a player is a clear underdog he should mix it up and avoid a "standard" game. This is where the cheese = no skill thing comes from, but we all know its a lie. Also, this has nothing to do with honor.
If the player with less skill wins he outsmarted the opponent or "had a good day" or got lucky, again, it has nothing to do with honor.
But maybe, if a player is trying to prove himself, instead of just focus on the win, he should play a standard macro game, meh...
Lastly, some cheeses are hard to execute and fun to watch so any complains are just prejudice.
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On February 06 2016 18:54 Superbanana wrote:
Lastly, some cheeses are hard to execute and fun to watch so any complains are just butthurt
Fixed for you.
And +1 for whole your post.
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During their whole lives all people do is making excuses of them being bad. Honor is just a kind of excuse.
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You see over the last 15 years I never learned how to macro. I learned how to micro though. When I was actively playing sc2 2 bases was the maximum of what I could handle, and even then I would hotkey all my buildings and press asdf and tab randomly. I still won because I am a micro god :D I would win games where I did not lose a single unit. So I am not cheesing, I am surviving damn it
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as much as I dislike cheeses on ladder (because lets face it, its a complete coinflip if you dont play the meta, the person or play a boX series) its a completely viable way of winning.
I would never cheese personally because, well I dont like coinflipping my game, I feel like im skillcapping myself very hard by cheesing and I personally enjoy more multitasking heavy control rather than the kind of micro cheese usually allows for.
I dont like watching pros that cheese because usually it means no multitasking, no macro and no mechanics.
But that doesnt mean its not a 100% viable way of playing. In the end its all about winning right?
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Because cheese lets much worse opponents win vs someone who is better in general.
Edit: It's at least true for like up to masters.
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On February 06 2016 19:13 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
But that doesnt mean its not a 100% viable way of playing. In the end its all about winning right?
Its all about having fun. But if the game with cheese tactics isnt fun, why are you playing ladder, designed mostly to compare the lengh of the wieners, in the first place?
Because cheese lets much worse opponents win vs someone who is better in general.
This is argumentation of 12-years old spoiled kid, not the mature player, who should know better that many players will do anything to get away with victory.
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On February 06 2016 18:31 hitthat wrote:I dont know it was trolling or sarcasm, but the guy has absolutely right. Cheese is the part of the game, it always was in BW and I dont see a reason why it shouldnt be a part of SC2. As you said, the only concern should be balance - and so it must only be possible to stop it with proper play (scouting, in the first place). And if there is such a situation that cheese is too difficult to stop, that's the designer who is in fault, not the player who abuse it. If you are anable to accept your loss becouse the oponent surprised/outsmarted you, go play Counter Strike and spare me your whining. Or play only with guys who you know they dont cheese. This game isnt made to make you feel superior for "fair" winning or "fair" playing. There is no honour in crying like a little baby. Show nested quote +On February 06 2016 17:14 lestye wrote:
I don't think cheesing is an issue, unless like cheesing is ltierally all you do, and you're not learning how to play the game. Like if you literally can't win a game except when you cheese because you have 0 fundamentals, that's a problem. No, its ok too. If the player cant manage with mechanics, he must relly on ruse and surprise factor. The guy who is cheesing all games the same way will be losing most of times anyway. If he is creative enouth to pull off cheesy in many ways and he is winning with that, I respect him for creativity.
It's not good for a player to be one dimensional like that. Ideally a player has a few tools in his toolshed to pull from, if he prefers cheesing, whatever. But if cheesing is literally the only thing you can do, and its only win condition, that's not good either. People should at least have the capability of playing a macro game or do another strategy.
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I belive this dicussion just like mayweather vs pacquiao match.....
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On February 06 2016 19:20 lestye wrote:
It's not good for a player to be one dimensional like that. Ideally a player has a few tools in his toolshed to pull from, if he prefers cheesing, whatever. But if cheesing is literally the only thing you can do, and its only win condition, that's not good either. People should at least have the capability of playing a macro game or do another strategy.
As I said, completely one dimmentional player will be losing most of time. It's not such a big concern IMO. Besides it has nothing to do with "honor". The rule that "People should at least have the capability of playing a macro game" implies that cheesers shouldnt play that game and have fun with it. And I'm really against that way of thinking.
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EPT
