EPTI don't think cheese win is any less valid than a "normal" victory but nothing obligates me to respect the cheeser as much as I respect other players. I can't change the rules of the game but I can decide who deserves my respect.
"Honorable" way of playing? - Page 3
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Sent.
Poland9188 Posts
I don't think cheese win is any less valid than a "normal" victory but nothing obligates me to respect the cheeser as much as I respect other players. I can't change the rules of the game but I can decide who deserves my respect. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
But when I see a liberator sieging my mineral line with no way of hitting it with a spore or a ravager, because of map, or when terran dropped a tank on a cliff back in bw, that was infuriating. To me a dishonorable cheese is not any cheese, but the one that can be done with minimum effort when the preparation or counter play against it requires you to do 5x more then your opponent. Map abuse or abuse of some broken mechanic/unit. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On February 06 2016 19:44 Nazara wrote: Whenever I see no nexus or other buildings with my scout, and later I see a bunch of zealots coming at me, I don't have any issues when I lose. I should be able to tell what's going on and prepare instead of droning. But when I see a liberator sieging my mineral line with no way of hitting it with a spore or a ravager, because of map, or when terran dropped a tank on a cliff back in bw, that was infuriating. To me a dishonorable cheese is not any cheese, but the one that can be done with minimum effort when the preparation or counter play against it requires you to do 5x more then your opponent. Map abuse or abuse of some broken mechanic/unit. Once again: it's game's fault, not the player who exploits its weak points. It gives the insight of the design flaws. The good place for adressing this is balance discusion thread/strategy thread, not a chat of the cheesing player. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
1) Buildorder loss, this is more mindgames and in a series its planning and strategy. This kind of cheese I like because its about predicting what the opponent will do. If you realize the layers behind these games it will many times be impressive, intelligent and ballsy. 2) Executing a build so well that it kills someone even if its scouted, this means the cheesing players is very good at cheesing,micro, decisionmaking and so on. The problem is that people expect the best players like herO, Zest, Innovation or soO to be able to hold all-ins and cheese, especially if its scouted. Normally the best players can hold these cheeses and thats why they do the builds they do beause they know they can stop all cheeses that can come their way.If they fail either it is actually an OP strat, like WP+adept strat vs T recently or blink stalkers vs T in the past or the cheeser is extremely skilled and that skill should be respected just like macro skill. 3) Executing a cheese that doesn't get scouted and killing someone. In this situation either the cheesed player play bad (doesn't scout even if he should) or he doesn't scout on purpose because he know he can hold anything that comes his way. If the player is confident he can hold and doesn't scout and still lose to cheese then the cheeser is extremely skilled at what he does. People have this attitude because they expect players like Inno and Zest to always be able to defend cheese and the only possiblity they fail is because the strat used against them is OP. That is not true because if it would be OP everyone would be using the cheese and in that case Inno or Zest should easility be able to predict the cheese and expect it. This happens sometimes but its very rare, I gave examples of that earlier. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
It seems to me that people think cheesing is not a honorable way of playing. Why is that? Because cheesing is less about mechanically outplaying your opponent and more about having build order luck. There is a reason rock-scissor-paper isn't an interesting game. I think people just don't like to lose. No that's not it. Sc2 is about large armies being all around the map and rewarding high level micro, macro and multitasking. Chees prevents that. Poker is a skill based game. Luck is involved but not the determining factor. Otherwise you wouldn't have professional players. In poker you play thousands of hands to minimize variance. And the only reason luck exist in poker is to keep the suckers play the game. In Sc2 that reason doesn't exist (since you don't get money from the suckers). And yes even then, you can outplay your opponent and still lose over 10K hands. Seriously, the poker example is so terrible, and I don't understand why you would use it when you don't understand the game. If you realize the layers behind these games it will many times be impressive, intelligent and ballsy. Occationally you have one guy maybe thinking he can get a 60-40 edge by doing a certain build against a certain opponent (because no pro usually do the same thing 100% of the time). I don't understand why its entertaining to see a game be decided by so much luck. Also it's not high level strategic if you spot one guy doing a certain build too much. E.g. Byun does hellion openings and doesn't follow up with Tanks --> You can assume he does the same thing and blind-counter with Roach/Ravager timing attack. How is that super skillful? How is that deep strategic knowledge? No all it is, is that you know that if you do a certain build and you assume Byun does build X --> You probably win. That's extremely simplistic from a strategic perspective. In every sport, it's the mechanics/technique that is the charm of the game. Like Messi outdribling someone. Not coinflipping. And in chess, I assume there are a ton more variables that goes into the decisionmaking proces, which makes that interesting to watch from a strategic perspective. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On February 06 2016 19:57 Hider wrote: No that's not it. I would argue it is. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
I just explained you why its not. Losing an intensive macrogame where you got outplayed in every single way, but wasting time losing because someone flipped a coin is a lame experience. I don't understand how you cannot see this difference. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Would anyone think that is awesome, and talk about sick strategic mindgames? Or would most people just see that its completely retarded. And the reason people cannot see that cheese/early game allins are completely retarded in Sc2 is that they are so used to it so you think its just has to be that no way. But no, one of the reasons MOBA's are succesful is because you actually get to play a macrogame. You don't have to worry about dumb shit. You don't instalose if your opponent buys a certain item and you didn't expect it. RTS games could easily learn from that. If you manage to outmindgame your opponent, it should grant you a small advantage. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
So I'll close the discussion with a bit of history. Surcouf is the most famous french corsair ever, capturing countless ships all over the oceans (mostly british ones). One day, when a British captive officer challenged Surcouf with the words "You French fight for money while we fight for honour", Surcouf replied "Each of us fights for what he lacks most". Wise words that should be remembered... + Show Spoiler + | ||
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rotta
5586 Posts
On February 06 2016 20:21 Hider wrote: Imagine if you play a soccer game and on team lines up with 4-4-2 and the other team lines up with 6-3-1 and gets a 95% win as a result of a different formation. There's a cheese that wins 95% of the time? BO plz | ||
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
On February 06 2016 20:21 Hider wrote: Imagine if you play a soccer game and on team lines up with 4-4-2 and the other team lines up with 6-3-1 and gets a 95% win as a result of a different formation. Would anyone think that is awesome, and talk about sick strategic mindgames? Or would most people just see that its completely retarded. But nobody would called that "unhonorable". I just explained you why its not. Losing an intensive macrogame where you got outplayed in every single way, but wasting time losing because someone flipped a coin is a lame experience. Oh come'on. This is such a lame excuse. If you think it's not ok, dont play ladder and find a sparingpartners instead. And I'm actually convinced that cheesers are contributing to balance more than usual balance whiners becouse they find effective new ways to counter many shit, that could be close to imposible to stop other way. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
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Ciaus237
South Africa280 Posts
MC and Life really epitomised this in my opinion, if they see a chink in the armour, they just *kill*. | ||
Poopi
France12793 Posts
On February 06 2016 20:21 Hider wrote: And the reason people cannot see that cheese/early game allins are completely retarded in Sc2 is that they are so used to it so you think its just has to be that no way. It's not retarded. Why would superior players waste their time playing only macro games against inferior opponents? Destroying a foreigner in less than 30 minutes is the most dominating performance you can do... If you take a lot of time to win it isn't as impressive trust me. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
And just to be clear, I'm not referring to defensive play. I mean the full on "I put planetary fortresses everywhere, guarded by tanks, guarded by towers, guarded by liberators, guarded by ... I'm never going to attack, just slowly expand until you're bored out of your mind". If I ever had to choose "unhonorable play", it would be that. Cheese play at least involves putting the burden of winning on yourself, while this passive play is more like "I've got no life dude, it's okay if this game goes on for 10 hours. If you wanna win, try breaking this LOL". In fact I don't mind any strategy that involves actually DOING something. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On February 06 2016 20:21 Hider wrote: ... And the reason people cannot see that cheese/early game allins are completely retarded in Sc2 is that they are so used to it so you think its just has to be that no way. But no, one of the reasons MOBA's are succesful is because you actually get to play a macrogame. You don't have to worry about dumb shit. You don't instalose if your opponent buys a certain item and you didn't expect it. RTS games could easily learn from that. If you manage to outmindgame your opponent, it should grant you a small advantage. if the macro game of a moba like league of legends or dota 2 (vastly difference experiences) or even heroes of the storm consists of a very linear set of ideal pathways to your gold/items then yes, you are enabled a macro game. there are also mechanics set in place that artificially extend a casual level game. towers, "inhibitors" respawning, and until some years ago (though for a very long time it remained this way) LoL games were always at least a certain length. it was 20m+ until you were allowed the option to give up. i feel that going into the success or fun of the currently popular genre is going off on an entirely different tangent. all intertwined, there's audience, friends, community, personal investment, timing, and even marketing involved. i bold what i personally feel is most important and is keeping many north american people playing. when it comes to the moba game (and i have played it from the very beginning), people insta-lose (or come close to it) because relatively, they don't grasp the economy and concept of farming for their heroes very well, and choose items and builds that are bad against their opponents without even realizing it. there are very obviously phases in a moba's patch cycle where certain heroes, builds, items, or timings are all considered 'cheesy' because it all does too much for the amount of investment or control it requires. it's extremely relatable. in league of legends, there are passive gold items that granted health or regen bonuses which extended the game and gave you an economical advantage for unreasonably low cost--they were used by nearly every single hero in the game. if it was part of a good time in the meta or a good design choice, they gave it a chance and quickly nerfed it thereafter making it all a bit irrelevant and everyone had to relearn how they played their lanes/style or dropped the heroes immediately. you can't just cherry-pick issues with game balance because of the apparent success of a game. you very obviously dislike cheese and on the other side of the coin, feel that normal play is more skillful. in my opinion, i would disagree because i think being cheesed and being able to deal with it to pull it into a longer game is the skill that most people should be aiming for at some point. not only are you getting the sort of longer and slower game that you want, you're teaching the other player how to play straight up against you (if you want to look at it that way, or if you play each other ever again). more than anything at all when it comes to RTS, i think the best mentality is to look at your games and to figure out if you could have won the game any sooner than you did (when winning), or if you could have actually won from a losing position. the answer is most certainly "yes". sometimes you'll notice a player at a high level who is somewhat stubborn and will open the game up with a hole in their play. cheese is the most efficient and quickest way you can abuse that. cheese in the sense that most players like avilo will all-chat and express their disgust for it when in fact is is completely legitimate play. end the game if you know you can. end the game even if you're unsure, and figure out the method for it (becoming a better and more consistent player by doing so). | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12161 Posts
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
It must require a hell of alot of skill, strategy, creativity & more to be able to consistently cheese top players and be known for it. You cant just do the same build the same way every damn game and win like you can on ladder. I have great respect for cheese plays at high level, even if they arent the most entertaining. Ladder is a different story lol. | ||
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Poopi
France12793 Posts
Conditionning is very important... remember Mvp vs Squirtle game 7? | ||
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Bojas
Netherlands2397 Posts
Of course there's no rulebook on how to play and you can do whatever you want. Certain playstyles not being honorable is not something you should concern yourself with. But that doesn't mean I will respect you as a player. I'm not sure if these things are still around though, haven't seen low apm tosses that do dumb builds that are still highly ranked. edit: also just want to say that I don't think cheese is bad in a ''best of'' tournament situation. Also, think of BityByBit if you were around during that era, did you like how he played? Did you respect him? | ||
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