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I read so many times on TL forums users saying something along the lines of "I have no respect for player X, because he's a cheeser."
It seems to me that people think cheesing is not a honorable way of playing. Why is that? I can agree that abusing imbalanced stuff and being a Patch[insert race] is not honorable, because in a way it's cheating. But if the game is balanced why would one be more mad when losing to cheese than when losing in the late game?
I for one consider builds that involve making a bunch of units and just wrecking the opponent the purest and most honorable way of playing Starcraft. Back in the day I had the most fun using and watching Korean Protoss players use "bulldog"
vs Terran. Now there is a whole book of builds and I'm not quite sure which one I like the best.
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hm no one really like to lose to a cheese because an X race has a build order to pull it off. but if you dont get scout then you have no reason to complain... but if you do scout and you see it coming but cant hold it off, primarily becuase the player is able to abuse the cheesing unit, then it gets irritating. like back in the day mothership and blink stalker all in.
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it's just whiny posters who pretend to be honorable and better fans for it.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
sOs is the best anyone who says otherwise is a poophead
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heh, what do people know about honor these days
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Cheesing is awesome. You do whatever it takes to get the win, because the better player at the moment, always wins.
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3391 Posts
Are you asking why cheesing is considered "dishonorable" but then saying anyone who does well after a race/unit gets buffed is cheating.....?
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On February 06 2016 15:13 riotjune wrote:
heh, what do people know about honor these days
Dunno, use it to save the princess in another castle?
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It has to do with the gamedesign. A cheese in this game is such an easy thing to do while the opponent cant really scout it properly either.
That has been the case since release pretty much.
If someone makes a cheese and the game is designed for you to be able to scout it, react properly and it require micro for both sides etc i wouldnt have any problem with this sort of thing but thats not the case its rng luck fest with little skill to execute things.
Its like playing poker in a so called e-sport game. Its bad design as hell + very boring
On February 06 2016 15:14 BronzeKnee wrote:
Cheesing is awesome. You do whatever it takes to get the win, because the better player at the moment, always wins.
Nice trolling man
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37062 Posts
I am an "honorable" cheeser whenever I ladder. 'Nuff said.
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On February 06 2016 15:22 Foxxan wrote:
It has to do with the gamedesign. A cheese in this game is such an easy thing to do while the opponent cant really scout it properly either.
That has been the case since release pretty much.
If someone makes a cheese and the game is designed for you to be able to scout it, react properly and it require micro for both sides etc i wouldnt have any problem with this sort of thing but thats not the case its rng luck fest with little skill to execute things.
Its like playing poker in a so called e-sport game. Its bad design as hell + very boring
Poker is a skill based game. Luck is involved but not the determining factor. Otherwise you wouldn't have professional players.
As for being easier to execute than hold. I don't think that that is the case in LotV.
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Because people dont like losing to someone who know how to execute an easy cheesy buildorder by getting caught off guard, the longer the game goes, the more skill it requires, big army engagements, positioning, scouting, multitasking and transitioning. In that sense, people see macro games as the true test of skill between two players, vsing a cheese is just defending then just winning, or not being able to scout/react/army out of position slightly and you lose.
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Who cares what other people consider "honourable" or not. Personally I'd consider anything within the bounds of the game honourable (okay there are some exception. Floating/hiding buildings to waste your opponent's time or typing "has left the game!" to fake out your opponent isn't terribly honourable.)
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I didn't like it in WoL because 4gate could be a bit of "didn't scout, you die" and so could many other builds.
Now the cheeses are much more fun and interactive. Besides things like Nydus where it's the same boring element of old, similar to a 4gate, I don't mind the cheeses now - they're much better and require actual fucking micro and maneuvering around. Much more interesting. I was also younger and more suceptible to that attitude of "playing like a scrub" or getting angry at the game.
Cheeses take skill in LOTV, where they didn't before 
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people hate cheesing because they want to play a macro back and fourth game, but with cheesing they might lose and feel that they didnt get to play a "proper" game, since they didnt get a chance to do something other then try and hold the allin. when you get cheesed it feels like you get the back and fourth taken away from you and can only defend and takes your game plain so ppl get salty about it.
i hate it some time because it feels like they just want to try and get a free win, and hope i either suck or dont know how to stop it which is insulting (but thats in my head really). but whats funny is its also makes for fun games cause you have no guide to what to which makes for crazy games.
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I don't think theres a dishonorable way of playing, but I do thing that is bad (really bad) design the way many cheeses/BOs work in SC2, from BOs in wich all you have to do is do it correctly (almost going in automode) to win, to the fact that there races that have more of these builds that the others (namely protoss).
I think it would've be cool if all the races had an equal ammount of these cheesy BOs, it would make the game interesting, instead of having the 1 "bullshit race"
I know that if there was enough stuff to make a "greath book of terran bullshit" I would've love starcraft way more.
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The game is about winning, not being honorable. Those people who say that are a bunch of butthurt cry babies.
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Imagine a majestic mountain nirvana of gaming. At its peak are fulfillment, “fun,” and even transcendence. Most people could care less about this mountain peak because they have other life issues that are more important to them, and other peaks to pursue. There are a few, though, who are not at this peak, but who would be very happy there. These are the people I’m talking to with this book. Some of them don’t need any help; they’re on the journey. Most, though, only believe they are on that journey but actually are not. They got stuck in a chasm at the mountain’s base, a land of scrubdom. Here they are imprisoned in their own mental constructs of made-up game rules. If they could only cross this chasm, they would discover either a very boring plateau (for a degenerate game) or the heavenly enchanted mountain peak (for a “deep” game). In the former case, crossing the chasm would teach them to find a different mountain with more fulfilling rewards. In the latter case, well, they’d just be happier. “Playing to win” is largely the process of shedding the mental constructs that trap players in the chasm who would be happier at the mountain peak.
Excerpt from David Sirlin's "Playing to Win"-- a great resource for understanding the optimal competitive mindset.
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EPT
