EPTI'm not shitting on Taeja, but just saying, looking at tournaments only held in Korea is not indicitive to who's the greatest champions in SC2.
stuchiu's 1000: Myth of the Inconsistent Champion - Page 5
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ejozl
Denmark3553 Posts
I'm not shitting on Taeja, but just saying, looking at tournaments only held in Korea is not indicitive to who's the greatest champions in SC2. | ||
nimdil
Poland3774 Posts
On January 26 2016 02:41 ejozl wrote: For me the appendix wasn't that interesting, especially since you mentioned Taeja, spoke about number of Primier tournaments won in SC2 and linked the GOAT article. If we only looked at tournaments held in Korea Taeja wouldn't even be in the top 15. I'm not shitting on Taeja, but just saying, looking at tournaments only held in Korea is not indicitive to who's the greatest champions in SC2. You're hugely incorrect. Looking at tournaments in Korean is extremely indicative to who's the greatest champion in SC2. It's just not definite. If you think about greatest players in SC2 most of them were successful in Korea, at least for a time. Look at top 10 from GOAT series Mvp - successful in Korea Life - successful in Korea TaeJa - nonfactor in Korea MC - successful in Korea Polt - moderate success in Korea MMA - successful in Korea NesTea - successful only in Korea Zest - successful in Korea INnoVation - successful in Korea Rain - successful in Korea If you look at players with most $$ earned in SC2 then: MC - successful in Korea Life - successful in Korea sOs - moderate success in Korea (unless you count Proleague) Mvp - successful in Korea MMA - successful in Korea Polt - moderate success in Korea PartinG - strong presence in Korea (unless PL) INnoVation - successful in Korea NesTea- successful in Korea If you look at players with most premier tournament wins of any kind than you add to the table: HerO - unsuccessful in Korea Bomber - neglible success in Korea (Code A) and finally peak rating in tlpd you get: INnoVation - successful in Korea sOs - moderate success in Korea (unless you count Proleague) soO - significant success in challeing inner YellOw and winning special event Parting - strong presence in Korea (unless PL) Life - successful in Korea Maru - successful in Korea herO - moderately successful in Korea Rain - successful in Korea TaeJa - nonfactor in Korea Classic - successful in Korea | ||
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On January 26 2016 02:41 ejozl wrote: For me the appendix wasn't that interesting, especially since you mentioned Taeja, spoke about number of Primier tournaments won in SC2 and linked the GOAT article. If we only looked at tournaments held in Korea Taeja wouldn't even be in the top 15. I'm not shitting on Taeja, but just saying, looking at tournaments only held in Korea is not indicitive to who's the greatest champions in SC2. Taeja is the god of weekenders and foreign tournaments, but for some reason when it came to the GSL or even WCS he under-performed. He's one of the greatest due to his unparalleled dominance in that area, but I can't help but feel his body of work is missing a critical component. He's like a Yellow of SC2 - the special events king! | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3553 Posts
If you're strong in Korea that IS indicitive of you being a strong player.. | ||
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ClaudeSc2
United States73 Posts
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On January 26 2016 04:04 ClaudeSc2 wrote: I disagree with his reasoning. It's not just about who won tournaments. It's about how consistently deep players runs were. Ro8's and Ro4's need to be factored in. In Sc2 we've seen two many GSL champions drop out in the Ro32 the next season...which is a fucking embarrassing level of volatility in the game. We saw that in BW as well with the OSL curse. BW alternated between SC2-like periods where there was an "S-class" of players and bonjwa periods where one player was unstoppable. | ||
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Ace Frehley
2030 Posts
On January 26 2016 04:04 ClaudeSc2 wrote: I disagree with his reasoning. It's not just about who won tournaments. It's about how consistently deep players runs were. Ro8's and Ro4's need to be factored in. In Sc2 we've seen two many GSL champions drop out in the Ro32 the next season...which is a fucking embarrassing level of volatility in the game. I wish I could find a post that some guy did a long time ago, compiling the performance of all the BW champions in the very next tournament they played (individual league). You'd be surprised with the amount of champions being kicked out very early. It's a myth that this only happened with sc2 | ||
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nimdil
Poland3774 Posts
On January 26 2016 04:45 Ace Frehley wrote: I wish I could find a post that some guy did a long time ago, compiling the performance of all the BW champions in the very next tournament they played (individual league). You'd be surprised with the amount of champions being kicked out very early. It's a myth that this only happened with sc2 Part of the information is here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Starcraft_Leagues_Results/Prominence The only thing that's missing is why the player didn't have any result in subsequent event if there's nothing (Like NaDa in OSL after his 3 KPGAs) - either did not play or did not qualify. | ||
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MrMischelito
347 Posts
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PickyProtoss
Ireland74 Posts
On January 25 2016 22:40 RKC wrote: We could break down consistency rates into three levels: top, middle, bottom. Top: Finals Middle: RO16-RO4 for SC2, RO8-RO4 for BW Bottom: RO32-RO16 for SC2, RO16-RO8 for BW The rates could be very well be significantly different at different levels. Then the next question would be which level of competition matters more in comparing consistency as a whole? Should we have a weighted ratio (e.g. Top:Mid:Bottom = 50:30:20)? Or should we only factor in top, or top and middle? This is moving towards the deep dive analysis stuchiu hinted about. Good luck with juggling 25+ sheets!  Thank you for the response, you raise some interesting points. However, other sports people also get injuries! Also, I would not create a division between "real" sports and esports - because we are ultimately discussing humans playing a game. Rather than using the cliche of chess, tennis was also mentioned, this is not a team sport. I think performance in tennis and SC2 is comparable. The problem with esports is balancing. I think balance has lots to do with the issue of consistency! I suppose maps also play a factor - as the article states. In terms of the analysis, it depends what you want to do - currently the analysis is descriptive statistics. I mean it seems rather difficult to prove the point that SC2 is any less or more consistent than any sports without a reference group. Also, the issue about comparing SC2 with BW is that BW influenced SC2, but SC2 did not influence BW. Therefore, the games are not independent esports. Skills attained in BW can be transferred to SC2. This is why I made reference to other sports. It is common to see consistent champions in sports, even single player games, such as darts and tennis.Indeed, soccer is a bad example! Nevertheless, excellent article and comments. I have scrapped the ladder for 3 weeks over Christmas and ran some analysis on how many players rank up in a week. The results are quite startling. There are limitations to the analysis, but I would love to share them with the community. So if anyone is interested in writing a excerpt just let me know!!! | ||
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BowtiesAreCool
5 Posts
"In a sense they are right. While we have had dominating players, no single player has ever had a rightful claim to being the best player in the world for a sustained period longer than one year (with the notable exception being Mvp). The game is too competitive and changes too often for even the best players to stay on top unless they have the strength of will and ambition to do anything to win, like Mvp." I don't think the data provided really refutes the idea above. Yes, there is a group of players that consistently make their way to the latter-stages of grand tournaments. Yes, very few have been able to repeat as champions. The information regarding upsets is pretty invalid and (really) only acts as a red herring... There isn't really a coherent argument as to why the "inconsistent champion" is a myth... SC2 is so volatile and given the constant changes in map pools, racial balance, and (now) the new WCS system, we might not ever see another MVP, NesTea, etc. Still, this was a fun read and there's an incredible amount of data in here. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
Even if you don't agree with that, I don't get the sense in comparing across games with totally different tournament formats. Format has as much impact on consistency as the game itself does. And for SC2 you factor in jet lag and other travel problems, randomising factors which Brood War almost never dealt with. And of course the game itself has changed a great deal - SC2 has never been stable, whereas BW has been on essentially the same patch for how many years? And so on. I know this is supposed to be a very basic comparison and taken with a pinch of salt, but there are too many flaws for it to be worth anything. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On January 26 2016 08:02 PickyProtoss wrote: Thank you for the response, you raise some interesting points. However, other sports people also get injuries! Also, I would not create a division between "real" sports and esports - because we are ultimately discussing humans playing a game. Rather than using the cliche of chess, tennis was also mentioned, this is not a team sport. I think performance in tennis and SC2 is comparable. The problem with esports is balancing. I think balance has lots to do with the issue of consistency! I suppose maps also play a factor - as the article states. In terms of the analysis, it depends what you want to do - currently the analysis is descriptive statistics. I mean it seems rather difficult to prove the point that SC2 is any less or more consistent than any sports without a reference group. Also, the issue about comparing SC2 with BW is that BW influenced SC2, but SC2 did not influence BW. Therefore, the games are not independent esports. Skills attained in BW can be transferred to SC2. This is why I made reference to other sports. It is common to see consistent champions in sports, even single player games, such as darts and tennis.Indeed, soccer is a bad example! Nevertheless, excellent article and comments. I have scrapped the ladder for 3 weeks over Christmas and ran some analysis on how many players rank up in a week. The results are quite startling. There are limitations to the analysis, but I would love to share them with the community. So if anyone is interested in writing a excerpt just let me know!!! Sure, do share your analysis!  Anyway, I wasn't the one saying esports can't be compared with real sports. I think it can, and should. I'm interested to see how individual sports like tennis, golf, snooker, darts, etc compare with each other (and yes, with SC2 and BW as well) in terms of champion consistency. | ||
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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minigwar
United States33 Posts
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Richasliodo
18 Posts
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nimdil
Poland3774 Posts
To compare sc2 to that you would need to provide same criteria for ranking - essentially core gsl osl ssl proleague and gstl and plot something similar. | ||
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waiting2Bbanned
United States154 Posts
Looking at the BW result made me sad. SaviOr would have been considered one of the greatest, had he not match fixed =(. Since by "match-fixing" he artificially lost more (games he threw for $), he would've probably been on top of the winners' list; still one of the best players in my book. | ||
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TizeNO
Croatia6 Posts
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nimdil
Poland3774 Posts
On January 28 2016 13:36 TizeNO wrote: The only one consistent who you knew will win tourney for sure in sc2 was MVP in his time when he wasnt injured. Truly the best sc2 player... I don't agree. Mvp during his prime fell to Code A from Code S - during a period which was criticized for Code S being almost air tight and safe heaven while Code A being blood bath. He was strong the whole time but it was NesTea who was truly consistent in this period. Just less successful. | ||
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