On January 22 2016 04:00 shid0x wrote: Yup keep complaining, nothing's gonna change until 2017. And maybe, just maybe if you keep bitching all year long you won't even have IEM events next year : PROBLEM SOLVED.
Seriously are you just gonna be crybabies the WHOLE FUCKING YEAR ? Enjoy what you have, let's try to make another alternative together when the time comes. This time isn't now.
I see your point. Then i'll enjoy GSL,SSL and SPL. I'll skip DH and IEM and everything that just say "BEST players in the WORLD".
Hope Rolland Garros will say Nadal and Jokovitch are too strong and say : "nope to those country". Let's have the best at Rolland Garros.
(Oh and for European football, new tournament ! England, Spain and Italy are all in their own league !)
Hahah imagine if the CL was only for european teams. And the English premier league for ONLY English teams. Not even scotish. Or if Seria A allowed only italian teams... What a disgrace ! Or even worse... Imagine if you had a limit on foreign players in your team. Horror !
This whining is just the funniest thing ever.
This Is called WORLD though. I fail to see world . Or koreans don't live in the world région ?
Is CL CHAMPIONS LEAGUES ? If so it's not a WORLD league. ENGLISH PREMIER League is for only ENGLISH teams. yes.
So Intel extreme masters WORLD championship ? Hum...
Well, "Champion's league" doesn't consist of only champions too. Tournament organizers are free to market their tournament in a way they find the best. And btw, in case you missed it, koreans will play in IEM WORLD championshit. But actually you are right. If it's WORLD championship, ESL should invite a representative of every single nation in the world. Otherwise they will discriminate someone. Where are the Togolese ?
this is not a good argument
- there are 32 spots and more than 32 countries - it's not any country, it's the country that have the best players that's excluded here
1. It's his argument, not mine. 2. Korea is not excluded. 3. Have fun with the tournaments and stop whining.
1. An argument cannot be conducted by only one person.
On January 22 2016 04:00 shid0x wrote: Yup keep complaining, nothing's gonna change until 2017. And maybe, just maybe if you keep bitching all year long you won't even have IEM events next year : PROBLEM SOLVED.
Seriously are you just gonna be crybabies the WHOLE FUCKING YEAR ? Enjoy what you have, let's try to make another alternative together when the time comes. This time isn't now.
I see your point. Then i'll enjoy GSL,SSL and SPL. I'll skip DH and IEM and everything that just say "BEST players in the WORLD".
Hope Rolland Garros will say Nadal and Jokovitch are too strong and say : "nope to those country". Let's have the best at Rolland Garros.
(Oh and for European football, new tournament ! England, Spain and Italy are all in their own league !)
Hahah imagine if the CL was only for european teams. And the English premier league for ONLY English teams. Not even scotish. Or if Seria A allowed only italian teams... What a disgrace ! Or even worse... Imagine if you had a limit on foreign players in your team. Horror !
This whining is just the funniest thing ever.
This Is called WORLD though. I fail to see world . Or koreans don't live in the world région ?
Is CL CHAMPIONS LEAGUES ? If so it's not a WORLD league. ENGLISH PREMIER League is for only ENGLISH teams. yes.
So Intel extreme masters WORLD championship ? Hum...
Well, "Champion's league" doesn't consist of only champions too. Tournament organizers are free to market their tournament in a way they find the best. And btw, in case you missed it, koreans will play in IEM WORLD championshit. But actually you are right. If it's WORLD championship, ESL should invite a representative of every single nation in the world. Otherwise they will discriminate someone. Where are the Togolese ?
this is not a good argument
- there are 32 spots and more than 32 countries - it's not any country, it's the country that have the best players that's excluded here
1. It's his argument, not mine. 2. Korea is not excluded. 3. Have fun with the tournaments and stop whining.
1. An argument cannot be conducted by only one person.
On January 22 2016 04:00 shid0x wrote: Yup keep complaining, nothing's gonna change until 2017. And maybe, just maybe if you keep bitching all year long you won't even have IEM events next year : PROBLEM SOLVED.
Seriously are you just gonna be crybabies the WHOLE FUCKING YEAR ? Enjoy what you have, let's try to make another alternative together when the time comes. This time isn't now.
I see your point. Then i'll enjoy GSL,SSL and SPL. I'll skip DH and IEM and everything that just say "BEST players in the WORLD".
Hope Rolland Garros will say Nadal and Jokovitch are too strong and say : "nope to those country". Let's have the best at Rolland Garros.
(Oh and for European football, new tournament ! England, Spain and Italy are all in their own league !)
Hahah imagine if the CL was only for european teams. And the English premier league for ONLY English teams. Not even scotish. Or if Seria A allowed only italian teams... What a disgrace ! Or even worse... Imagine if you had a limit on foreign players in your team. Horror !
This whining is just the funniest thing ever.
This Is called WORLD though. I fail to see world . Or koreans don't live in the world région ?
Is CL CHAMPIONS LEAGUES ? If so it's not a WORLD league. ENGLISH PREMIER League is for only ENGLISH teams. yes.
So Intel extreme masters WORLD championship ? Hum...
Well, "Champion's league" doesn't consist of only champions too. Tournament organizers are free to market their tournament in a way they find the best. And btw, in case you missed it, koreans will play in IEM WORLD championshit. But actually you are right. If it's WORLD championship, ESL should invite a representative of every single nation in the world. Otherwise they will discriminate someone. Where are the Togolese ?
this is not a good argument
- there are 32 spots and more than 32 countries - it's not any country, it's the country that have the best players that's excluded here
1. It's his argument, not mine. 2. Korea is not excluded. 3. Have fun with the tournaments and stop whining.
1. does it matter? it's still bad reasoning. you failed at mirroring the situation, thus rendering the argument pointless 2. yes it is, by any sensible reading of the rules. the koreans playing are living in america 3. i don't want to watch dreamhack, that's the whole point
They are still excluded. To refer to the example I brought up before: Imagine if Federer/Djokovic/Murray/Nadal required permanent residency in Australia to play there.
When we have the tennis infrastructure and money, then we can compare things. That is why I don't like comparing real life sports with SC2. The only reason I mentioned football above is because someone used a dumb analogy and I found it funny. The foreign scene needs a boost and I can't see anything wrong(or racist) with the current WCS rules. All of the good korean SC2 players that meet the requirements are invited. This is what I have to say.
That's why the comparison with tennis is quite good: Tennis had huge restrictions until 1968 as well. No professional players were allowed to participate in any Grand Slam Tournament. In 1968 they dropped these restrictions and that's basically when Tennis got its infrastructure, its money and its popularity.
Blizzard tries to do it the other way round and I don't know of a single tournament based individual sports where this has worked out.
On January 22 2016 04:00 shid0x wrote: Yup keep complaining, nothing's gonna change until 2017. And maybe, just maybe if you keep bitching all year long you won't even have IEM events next year : PROBLEM SOLVED.
Seriously are you just gonna be crybabies the WHOLE FUCKING YEAR ? Enjoy what you have, let's try to make another alternative together when the time comes. This time isn't now.
I see your point. Then i'll enjoy GSL,SSL and SPL. I'll skip DH and IEM and everything that just say "BEST players in the WORLD".
Hope Rolland Garros will say Nadal and Jokovitch are too strong and say : "nope to those country". Let's have the best at Rolland Garros.
(Oh and for European football, new tournament ! England, Spain and Italy are all in their own league !)
Hahah imagine if the CL was only for european teams. And the English premier league for ONLY English teams. Not even scotish. Or if Seria A allowed only italian teams... What a disgrace ! Or even worse... Imagine if you had a limit on foreign players in your team. Horror !
This whining is just the funniest thing ever.
This Is called WORLD though. I fail to see world . Or koreans don't live in the world région ?
Is CL CHAMPIONS LEAGUES ? If so it's not a WORLD league. ENGLISH PREMIER League is for only ENGLISH teams. yes.
So Intel extreme masters WORLD championship ? Hum...
Well, "Champion's league" doesn't consist of only champions too. Tournament organizers are free to market their tournament in a way they find the best. And btw, in case you missed it, koreans will play in IEM WORLD championshit. But actually you are right. If it's WORLD championship, ESL should invite a representative of every single nation in the world. Otherwise they will discriminate someone. Where are the Togolese ?
this is not a good argument
- there are 32 spots and more than 32 countries - it's not any country, it's the country that have the best players that's excluded here
1. It's his argument, not mine. 2. Korea is not excluded. 3. Have fun with the tournaments and stop whining.
1. does it matter? it's still bad reasoning. you failed at mirroring the situation, thus rendering the argument pointless 2. yes it is, by any sensible reading of the rules. the koreans playing are living in america 3. i don't want to watch dreamhack, that's the whole point
They are still excluded. To refer to the example I brought up before: Imagine if Federer/Djokovic/Murray/Nadal required permanent residency in Australia to play there.
When we have the tennis infrastructure and money, then we can compare things. That is why I don't like comparing real life sports with SC2. The only reason I mentioned football above is because someone used a dumb analogy and I found it funny. The foreign scene needs a boost and I can't see anything wrong(or racist) with the current WCS rules. All of the good korean SC2 players that meet the requirements are invited. This is what I have to say.
Yeah the good Korean players that also meet the requirements! E.g)
See! So many. If you are saying Hydra - Polt is good, I guess we have different standards
On January 22 2016 04:00 shid0x wrote: Yup keep complaining, nothing's gonna change until 2017. And maybe, just maybe if you keep bitching all year long you won't even have IEM events next year : PROBLEM SOLVED.
Seriously are you just gonna be crybabies the WHOLE FUCKING YEAR ? Enjoy what you have, let's try to make another alternative together when the time comes. This time isn't now.
I see your point. Then i'll enjoy GSL,SSL and SPL. I'll skip DH and IEM and everything that just say "BEST players in the WORLD".
Hope Rolland Garros will say Nadal and Jokovitch are too strong and say : "nope to those country". Let's have the best at Rolland Garros.
(Oh and for European football, new tournament ! England, Spain and Italy are all in their own league !)
Hahah imagine if the CL was only for european teams. And the English premier league for ONLY English teams. Not even scotish. Or if Seria A allowed only italian teams... What a disgrace ! Or even worse... Imagine if you had a limit on foreign players in your team. Horror !
This whining is just the funniest thing ever.
This Is called WORLD though. I fail to see world . Or koreans don't live in the world région ?
Is CL CHAMPIONS LEAGUES ? If so it's not a WORLD league. ENGLISH PREMIER League is for only ENGLISH teams. yes.
So Intel extreme masters WORLD championship ? Hum...
Well, "Champion's league" doesn't consist of only champions too. Tournament organizers are free to market their tournament in a way they find the best. And btw, in case you missed it, koreans will play in IEM WORLD championshit. But actually you are right. If it's WORLD championship, ESL should invite a representative of every single nation in the world. Otherwise they will discriminate someone. Where are the Togolese ?
this is not a good argument
- there are 32 spots and more than 32 countries - it's not any country, it's the country that have the best players that's excluded here
1. It's his argument, not mine. 2. Korea is not excluded. 3. Have fun with the tournaments and stop whining.
1. does it matter? it's still bad reasoning. you failed at mirroring the situation, thus rendering the argument pointless 2. yes it is, by any sensible reading of the rules. the koreans playing are living in america 3. i don't want to watch dreamhack, that's the whole point
They are still excluded. To refer to the example I brought up before: Imagine if Federer/Djokovic/Murray/Nadal required permanent residency in Australia to play there.
When we have the tennis infrastructure and money, then we can compare things. That is why I don't like comparing real life sports with SC2. The only reason I mentioned football above is because someone used a dumb analogy and I found it funny. The foreign scene needs a boost and I can't see anything wrong(or racist) with the current WCS rules. All of the good korean SC2 players that meet the requirements are invited. This is what I have to say.
That's why the comparison with tennis is quite good: Tennis had huge restrictions until 1968 as well. No professional players were allowed to participate in any Grand Slam Tournament. In 1968 they dropped these restrictions and that's basically when Tennis got its infrastructure, its money and its popularity.
Blizzard tries to do it the other way round and I don't know of a single tournament based individual sports where this has worked out.
Interesting analogy I've seen mentioned before a few times. What was the rationale behind the Grand Slam restrictions pre-1968? To protect youth players? Some organisational schism? Or just a random historical quirk?
BTW tennis also has a nationality-based team tournament. It's called the Davis Cup. Doesn't seem to draw as many crowds and interest as Grand Slams and World Tour. The top players even prefer not to join.
Why can't e-sports be more like tennis? Fans just loving the game at its highest level, and not rooting for players based on nationality or personality (this happens a lot in football, which is where its ugly side rears). For example, I love Federer for the way he plays - so elegant, so effortlessly - and so do the majority of tennis fans (whereas drama-queens like Novak Djokovic and Nick Kyrgios tend to turn off fans).
I see your point. Then i'll enjoy GSL,SSL and SPL. I'll skip DH and IEM and everything that just say "BEST players in the WORLD".
Hope Rolland Garros will say Nadal and Jokovitch are too strong and say : "nope to those country". Let's have the best at Rolland Garros.
(Oh and for European football, new tournament ! England, Spain and Italy are all in their own league !)
Hahah imagine if the CL was only for european teams. And the English premier league for ONLY English teams. Not even scotish. Or if Seria A allowed only italian teams... What a disgrace ! Or even worse... Imagine if you had a limit on foreign players in your team. Horror !
This whining is just the funniest thing ever.
This Is called WORLD though. I fail to see world . Or koreans don't live in the world région ?
Is CL CHAMPIONS LEAGUES ? If so it's not a WORLD league. ENGLISH PREMIER League is for only ENGLISH teams. yes.
So Intel extreme masters WORLD championship ? Hum...
Well, "Champion's league" doesn't consist of only champions too. Tournament organizers are free to market their tournament in a way they find the best. And btw, in case you missed it, koreans will play in IEM WORLD championshit. But actually you are right. If it's WORLD championship, ESL should invite a representative of every single nation in the world. Otherwise they will discriminate someone. Where are the Togolese ?
this is not a good argument
- there are 32 spots and more than 32 countries - it's not any country, it's the country that have the best players that's excluded here
1. It's his argument, not mine. 2. Korea is not excluded. 3. Have fun with the tournaments and stop whining.
1. does it matter? it's still bad reasoning. you failed at mirroring the situation, thus rendering the argument pointless 2. yes it is, by any sensible reading of the rules. the koreans playing are living in america 3. i don't want to watch dreamhack, that's the whole point
They are still excluded. To refer to the example I brought up before: Imagine if Federer/Djokovic/Murray/Nadal required permanent residency in Australia to play there.
When we have the tennis infrastructure and money, then we can compare things. That is why I don't like comparing real life sports with SC2. The only reason I mentioned football above is because someone used a dumb analogy and I found it funny. The foreign scene needs a boost and I can't see anything wrong(or racist) with the current WCS rules. All of the good korean SC2 players that meet the requirements are invited. This is what I have to say.
That's why the comparison with tennis is quite good: Tennis had huge restrictions until 1968 as well. No professional players were allowed to participate in any Grand Slam Tournament. In 1968 they dropped these restrictions and that's basically when Tennis got its infrastructure, its money and its popularity.
Blizzard tries to do it the other way round and I don't know of a single tournament based individual sports where this has worked out.
Interesting analogy I've seen mentioned before a few times. What was the rationale behind the Grand Slam restrictions pre-1968? To protect youth players? Some organisational schism? Or just a random historical quirk?
BTW tennis also has a nationality-based team tournament. It's called the Davis Cup. Doesn't seem to draw as many crowds and interest as Grand Slams and World Tour. The top players even prefer not to join.
Why can't e-sports be more like tennis? Fans just loving the game at its highest level, and not rooting for players based on nationality or personality (this happens a lot in football, which is where its ugly side rears). For example, I love Federer for the way he plays - so elegant, so effortlessly - and so do the majority of tennis fans (whereas drama-queens like Novak Djokovic and Nick Kyrgios tend to turn off fans).
I don't know why they were banned, tbh. Guess it was a combination of all of those points. Some historical quirk, some organisational shit going on and of course the domestic heroes were protected by this. If that was the intention... no idea, but the tournaments consisted mostly of domestic players (Although of course other players won those tournaments as well. Rod Laver for example. Same as Polt/Hyda will win quite a few tournaments this year)
And I agree that tennis as a prototype would be the perfect way to organize SC2. I'm absolutely in favour of domestic tournaments. But these domestic tournaments have to be domestic, not everyone beside the Koreans. Some National Championships into European/NA Championships into World Championships would be totally fine, in my opinion. I doubt that anyone would argue that Koreans should not be banned from those tournaments. Same as in tennis we got smaller tournaments to support less known players (and lets face it, they are mostly not able to gain a living out of tennis neither.) and the big international tournaments for the best competition out there.
On January 22 2016 18:50 Pr0wler wrote: [quote] Hahah imagine if the CL was only for european teams. And the English premier league for ONLY English teams. Not even scotish. Or if Seria A allowed only italian teams... What a disgrace ! Or even worse... Imagine if you had a limit on foreign players in your team. Horror !
This whining is just the funniest thing ever.
This Is called WORLD though. I fail to see world . Or koreans don't live in the world région ?
Is CL CHAMPIONS LEAGUES ? If so it's not a WORLD league. ENGLISH PREMIER League is for only ENGLISH teams. yes.
So Intel extreme masters WORLD championship ? Hum...
Well, "Champion's league" doesn't consist of only champions too. Tournament organizers are free to market their tournament in a way they find the best. And btw, in case you missed it, koreans will play in IEM WORLD championshit. But actually you are right. If it's WORLD championship, ESL should invite a representative of every single nation in the world. Otherwise they will discriminate someone. Where are the Togolese ?
this is not a good argument
- there are 32 spots and more than 32 countries - it's not any country, it's the country that have the best players that's excluded here
1. It's his argument, not mine. 2. Korea is not excluded. 3. Have fun with the tournaments and stop whining.
1. does it matter? it's still bad reasoning. you failed at mirroring the situation, thus rendering the argument pointless 2. yes it is, by any sensible reading of the rules. the koreans playing are living in america 3. i don't want to watch dreamhack, that's the whole point
They are still excluded. To refer to the example I brought up before: Imagine if Federer/Djokovic/Murray/Nadal required permanent residency in Australia to play there.
When we have the tennis infrastructure and money, then we can compare things. That is why I don't like comparing real life sports with SC2. The only reason I mentioned football above is because someone used a dumb analogy and I found it funny. The foreign scene needs a boost and I can't see anything wrong(or racist) with the current WCS rules. All of the good korean SC2 players that meet the requirements are invited. This is what I have to say.
That's why the comparison with tennis is quite good: Tennis had huge restrictions until 1968 as well. No professional players were allowed to participate in any Grand Slam Tournament. In 1968 they dropped these restrictions and that's basically when Tennis got its infrastructure, its money and its popularity.
Blizzard tries to do it the other way round and I don't know of a single tournament based individual sports where this has worked out.
Interesting analogy I've seen mentioned before a few times. What was the rationale behind the Grand Slam restrictions pre-1968? To protect youth players? Some organisational schism? Or just a random historical quirk?
BTW tennis also has a nationality-based team tournament. It's called the Davis Cup. Doesn't seem to draw as many crowds and interest as Grand Slams and World Tour. The top players even prefer not to join.
Why can't e-sports be more like tennis? Fans just loving the game at its highest level, and not rooting for players based on nationality or personality (this happens a lot in football, which is where its ugly side rears). For example, I love Federer for the way he plays - so elegant, so effortlessly - and so do the majority of tennis fans (whereas drama-queens like Novak Djokovic and Nick Kyrgios tend to turn off fans).
I don't know why they were banned, tbh. Guess it was a combination of all of those points. Some historical quirk, some organisational shit going on and of course the domestic heroes were protected by this. If that was the intention... no idea, but the tournaments consisted mostly of domestic players (Although of course other players won those tournaments as well. Rod Laver for example. Same as Polt/Hyda will win quite a few tournaments this year)
And I agree that tennis as a prototype would be the perfect way to organize SC2. I'm absolutely in favour of domestic tournaments. But these domestic tournaments have to be domestic, not everyone beside the Koreans. Some National Championships into European/NA Championships into World Championships would be totally fine, in my opinion. I doubt that anyone would argue that Koreans should not be banned from those tournaments. Same as in tennis we got smaller tournaments to support less known players (and lets face it, they are mostly not able to gain a living out of tennis neither.) and the big international tournaments for the best competition out there.
Your model is much like WCS 2014 (where they had WCS NA, EU and Korea at regional level, and the top placing players moving on to the WCS Global).
I thought WCS Global was a great model, kind of like a Grand Slam. Have 16 players, start with group matches, stretch over 2 weekends, with some extra tweaks: - 8 top players from SSL and GSL - 4 top players from WCS EU-NA (combined EU and NA as one regional like in 2015) - 4 spots for winners of other premiers like IEM, DH, etc (maybe save 1 wild card from a special rookie online tourney open to all players who has never qualified for WCS/GSL/SSL)
Keeping the world and Koreans apart until Blizzcon is just terrible.
It doesn't mean this has to be the system forever. If it's a short term infusion to the foreign seen I don't see why that is bad. If it gets more foreign players dedicating full time and realizing there is a chance at some money hopefully the skill level and foreign depth can rise and after a year or two start mixing more for an overall more competitive scene.
Personally I thought some of the best SC2 moments came during the early MLG events that didn't have many if any Koreans. Once they started showing up it got lame knowing that the 4-6 Koreans would all just make the finals. It would be like allowing the best European Soccer clubs to come to America and play in the MLS.
I also don't understand on people insisting they won't watch. I like watching anytime the players involved are better than me and these players all are. I actually find foreign games much more fun as Koreans are typically so good and perfect they rarely make mistakes that open the door for more interesting games. It's the same reason why watching college sports can be more fun than watching pro sports at times. Is it not still fun to watch lower level soccer leagues instead of the World Cup? Local school sports/high school sports instead of pro? If you enjoy the game then watch and see where it goes. Otherwise the game simply dies. So maybe having a longer outlook instead of being short-sighted is important. None of this matters if the pro scene around the globe dies out then you'll have nothing to watch at all.
I find it funny how people argue that SC2 should be more like tennis. Do you really want the scene to look like high level tennis? In 2015 whenever Djokovic and Federer entered a tournament you pretty much knew how the finals will look like. Most of the time i actually skipped the entire tournament except the finals. Do you really want the SC2 scene to go into that direction? Now if you simply wanna see the best level of play, okay fine. Then why dont you just watch the personal streams of the best players in the world?
Funny side note to all the elitist "oh but only the best play in the world is worthy of my time"-people. If you truly wanted to see only, and really ONLY, the highest level of play, you would only watch the GSL finals, because only there the two best players in the hardest tournament of the world (according to tastosis: GSL) actually meet and play each other. Or are there different kinds of "best play in the world"
On January 25 2016 23:29 looken wrote: I find it funny how people argue that SC2 should be more like tennis. Do you really want the scene to look like high level tennis? In 2015 whenever Djokovic and Federer entered a tournament you pretty much knew how the finals will look like. Most of the time i actually skipped the entire tournament except the finals. Do you really want the SC2 scene to go into that direction? Now if you simply wanna see the best level of play, okay fine. Then why dont you just watch the personal streams of the best players in the world?
Funny side note to all the elitist "oh but only the best play in the world is worthy of my time"-people. If you truly wanted to see only, and really ONLY, the highest level of play, you would only watch the GSL finals, because only there the two best players in the hardest tournament of the world (according to tastosis: GSL) actually meet and play each other. Or are there different kinds of "best play in the world"
Firstly, there has been never such extreme domination in SC2 (the closest is perhaps Flash-Jaedong in BW, even then they were not sweeping all OSLs and MSLs in a row for 4-5 years).
Secondly, even if such domination exist, there's nothing wrong with it. Even if I was Asian and a Nishikori fan, I would rather tune in to Djokovic vs Nishikori in a Grand Slam than Nishikori vs some random Japanese dude in an ATP Japan Open (that Djokovic skipped). And for those who enjoy watching mediocre local favourites fighting each other, feel free to watch them in the earlier rounds of the Grand Slam.
I would argue that an open tournament has more diverse match-ups (hence more interesting for viewers). Low, mid and top players all get meet against each other. Whereas a closed tourney with the top players banned limits the match-ups only between low and mid players. So essentially those supporting closed tourneys want to see: (a) more low and mid match ups throughout the tourney (at the expense of low, mid and top match ups) and: (b) a finals between mid players (at the expense of a finals between two top players, or possibly even one top and one mid player). To me, such a preference just boggles my mind.
An open tournament might possibly have Nishikori meeting Djokovic and also random Japanese dude. But a closed tourney will only have the possibility of Nishikori meeting random Japanese dude. To me, my choice is quite clear.
EPT
