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On December 23 2015 01:12 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote:
I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something. Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since: 1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need. Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped. What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it. To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth.
Instead of seeing as KR vs the world, I see it as
I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings.
I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on.
If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players.
This honest to God feels like the American college's affirmative action and that's just not fucking fair.
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On December 22 2015 23:25 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 23:14 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:49 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:44 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:On December 22 2015 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
[quote]
Snute is kinda special. Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break. And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle. But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere. I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify). I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon. Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer. Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined. It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything. Copied from Diaboliques list: 1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra
2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans
3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN
4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN
5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol
6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG
7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy
8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt
9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark Hurricane pretty much the only small name on the list. Sorry. Soulkey, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TRUE, Pigbaby, Terminator, TaeJa, Leenock, Symbol, Losira, SuperNova, YongHwa, Hurricane ... Learn to count! :-) These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague. So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that. Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them. User was warned for this post
I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
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On December 23 2015 01:33 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 01:12 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote:
I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something. Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since: 1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need. Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped. What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it. To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth. Instead of seeing as KR vs the world, I see it as I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings. I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on. If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players. This honest to God feels like the American college's affirmative action and that's just not fucking fair.
Well, it is Blizzard's game, and they are entitled to do whatever they like with it. Similarly, American private colleges have every right to decide who they want to admit, and by what criteria they are admitted. Of course, American law disagrees with me, but if the principle of private property was enforced consistently, it would.
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Qualifiers
DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below:
NA (2)
EU (2)
LATAM (1)
CN (1)
TW (1)
ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on...
The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament.
Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
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On December 23 2015 02:10 yolteotl wrote:Show nested quote +
Qualifiers
DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below:
NA (2)
EU (2)
LATAM (1)
CN (1)
TW (1)
ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea) So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting.
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On December 23 2015 02:17 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 02:10 yolteotl wrote:
Qualifiers
DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below:
NA (2)
EU (2)
LATAM (1)
CN (1)
TW (1)
ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea) So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand... The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting.
Doesnt he live in the Root house in NA?
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On December 23 2015 01:33 Chaggi wrote:
I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings.
Korea is not banned from playing SC2. They still have their own environment, even though still hurt - we still don't know though if it was Blizzard's of KeSPA's decision about taking out GSL/SSL season - but they still exist. Maybe Proleague changed? The level that you most care about is not going to waste. You can watch just Koreans and ignore everything except them and top 8 of Blizzcon (which arguably will be like the last WCS 2015 Grand Finals - all Korean). What are "different environments" though? Different foreign players that are below Koreans? Or more opportunities for fans to have autographs?
I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on.
The fact is, that there is no regional support over other countries to produce many consistently good players, so your argument "I don't care if the best person is Korean or Brazilian" is probably just to show how not "racist" your arguments are.
You can take that money as a "compensation" and injection for the possible infrastructure (salaries etc.) foreigners possibly will never have - unless you show me a comparison of Korean and non-Korean progamer salaries as an argument about who deserves it and who does not. "Don't produce similar results"? I'm pretty sure about the fact that the top spots will go in huge majority to players who deserve it and put most time and effort to the game. That's the hope, isn't it? You have to win this money, it is not given out for free, as some like to refer to this system as "welfare". No, it's going to be a new spark for competition. By the way, do you remember how many viewers $100,000 ESL tournament brought? I don't think it would bring that many if it was a $10,000 invitational made by BaseTradeTV or someone else (I don't mean any offense to anyone). Someone probably has drawn some conclusions over prize pools.
If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players.
And one more time, main problem of this system is that it's introduced too late, after Korean expansion at the cost of foreign scenes. I see it as a last-minute compensation for that and a hopeful future for foreign communities. Which are also into StarCraft 2.
I would also like to have god-like abilities to see which country has the most people honestly willing to be the best in SC2 and set slots over regions that way. Maybe it's not Korea who has the most players hurt, maybe it's Russia? Or Romania?
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
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On December 23 2015 01:35 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 23:25 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 23:14 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:49 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:44 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
[quote]
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle. But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere. I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify). I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon. Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer. Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined. It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything. Copied from Diaboliques list: 1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra
2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans
3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN
4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN
5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol
6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG
7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy
8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt
9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark Hurricane pretty much the only small name on the list. Sorry. Soulkey, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TRUE, Pigbaby, Terminator, TaeJa, Leenock, Symbol, Losira, SuperNova, YongHwa, Hurricane ... Learn to count! :-) These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague. So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that. Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them. User was warned for this post I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
Let me help you  . He posted 4 times in a row
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8748 Posts
On December 23 2015 02:10 yolteotl wrote:
not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
you are completely out of touch with the ladders. what rank are you on each of the ladders that makes you come to these conclusions? i can't even imagine how someone's experience could lead to these conclusions. you are GM on EU, win 90%+ of your games against top GM NA, and you can't make GM on asia? completely unrealistic
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On December 23 2015 02:17 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 02:10 yolteotl wrote:
Qualifiers
DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below:
NA (2)
EU (2)
LATAM (1)
CN (1)
TW (1)
ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea) So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand... The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting.
Also, I heard that Kelazhur is somewhere around top 120 on KR server, can't remember where I heard about it, correct me if I'm wrong.
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On December 23 2015 02:19 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 02:17 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On December 23 2015 02:10 yolteotl wrote:
Qualifiers
DreamHack will arrange Circuit Passport Qualifiers for DreamHack Open Leipzig. This means that eight competitors from six regions will be able to qualify for a tournament spot online, with their travel and accommodation provided by Blizzard Entertainment. More information about the qualifiers and dates will be released very soon. Slots will be distributed to regions as shown below:
NA (2)
EU (2)
LATAM (1)
CN (1)
TW (1)
ANZ/SEA (1)
Come on... The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament. Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea) So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand... The top South American player right now is probably Kelazhur, who can fairly regularly compete with the best of NA. Just in his last 10 games he beat Petraeus, puCK and went 3-4 against Neeb who lots of NA pros consider the best NA player right now. Calling him "low masters" is pretty insulting. Doesnt he live in the Root house in NA?
For his sake I hope he does. All LATAM spots belong to Major. Always have, always will until he retires.
EDIT: Also while I love that China/TW are split up from each other and Korea but the fact that they have 1 spot each could end up really hurting both scenes. China will have Jim/Xigua/Toodming/Courage/Macsed/iA and any other player looking to make a name for themselves fighting for just ONE spot. TW will be the Sen show like LATAM until he throws in the towel too
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I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport.
If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup??
Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up.
Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet.
On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote:
I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport.
If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup??
Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
Have you just compared national leagues and World Championship Series, lmao.
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On December 23 2015 01:33 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 01:12 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 00:52 royalroadweed wrote:
I like the separate shot for the CN, TW, SEA regions. Usually they have no chance because they're lumped together with Korea. I don't like that Koreans are barred. Esports seems to be moving backwards in time with segregated leagues.
Personally, I would prefer to improve the skill level of foreigners instead of barring korea players. Make a requirement for korean qualifiers to have a set number of games played on NA or EU ladder or something. Although I know that your proposition is just a loose way of pointing out direction which Blizzard should take, I believe making a requirement like that is not a good idea, since: 1. it could only be achieved if all of the regions played connected to each other with equal latency (this could actually solve everything, or let's make sc2 turn-based - or make Blizzard put good servers in-between EU and Korea), and 2. you can't guarantee that Koreans will try-hard these games outside of KR like they do on their own server. And this try-harding is what other regions need. Basically KR tryhards practice full-time with each other and come for international tournaments (often they were, or still are invited) to secure most of the top 16 spots. That is what hurts everyone but Koreans. I wish this was not the case from the beginning, to invite Koreans to international tournaments as a tourist attraction to see how good infrastructure Korea has compared to other countries... now it feels like hurting Korea - their possibilites vastly expanded over possibilities of foreigners and now suddenly they are stopped. What puzzles me is why Korean expansion over international scene was always viewed by majority as a good thing, while it was silently hurting every try of creating an infrastructure outside of it. Now everyone is amazed how unfairly Korea is treated in the new system. Imagine how every non-Korean player felt, pro or committed to becoming pro, with a fact that to be considered good you have to beat at least few super-competitive Koreans with nothing close to their infrastructure in what was officially seen as a local competition. Otherwise you are mediocre. DreamHack, IEM, you name it. To some people 90% Koreans with 10% of lucky or "foreign hopes" was an objectively good thing. I also wish we never had a need to create a term "foreign hope". To me it never was a good thing. Instead of becoming professional and competitive you were doing your best to be a "foreign hope". But - everyone has their own truth. Instead of seeing as KR vs the world, I see it as I want to see the best games of Starcraft played by the best players that the game has to offer in different environments and different tournament settings. I don't care if the best person in the world is Korean or Brazilian. If they can play, and show good games, I will watch them. It's absurd to me that Blizzard is region locking for basically anyone not-Korean (except Polt and Hydra) because that's simply just racist. I hate that people who are not as good, don't put as much time in, and don't produce even similar results gets opportunities to win huge prize pools and stand on big stages that they frankly IMO, don't deserve to be on. If Blizzard really wanted a fair system, they would've promoted a system promoted development of lesser players and allowed inter-mingling with the better players. This honest to God feels like the American college's affirmative action and that's just not fucking fair.
You might be right but the problem is not enough people share your approach – just look at the viewer numbers. I'm pretty sure most big organizations would have dropped SC2 this year because they can't make money with it, so Blizzard try's to grow the viewer numbers back by creating local hero's. As someone else pointed out, last year there was no SC2 in Leipzig at all.
This may work or not but it's clear things didn't work out before. Maybe it's easier for casual viewers to connect to local players they can see all the time at streams etc. without going up in the middle of the night so SC2 is getting more popular over all. If not I'm pretty sure there won't be any big tournaments at all outside of Korea because I don't think Blizzard can justify to pay even more money to organizers for less viewers.
In my opinion the hole changes aren't about fairness, they are about sustainability and I'm happy to see SC2 at DH Leipzig even if I can't see the best Players in the world.
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On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote:
I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport.
If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup??
Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet.
Keep on comparing the individual sport that Starcraft II is with team-league sports like football (soccer). Stay classic.
Maybe start looking at individual sports like tennis or golf, when you want to compare esport with other sports.
Or start comparing right by saying "SKT T1 shouldnt be allowed to play in Europeen Team ProLeague". What would be totally right...
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On December 23 2015 02:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up. Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet. Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote:
I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport.
If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup??
Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet. Have you just compared national leagues and World Championship Series, lmao.
Just asking: from your signature, you watch both SC2 and LoL, right? Which do you watch/like more?
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On December 23 2015 02:56 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote:
I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport.
If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup??
Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet. Keep on comparing the individual sport that Starcraft II is with team-league sports like football (soccer). Stay classic. Maybe start looking at individual sports like tennis or golf, when you want to compare esport with other sports. Or start comparing right by saying "SKT T1 shouldnt be allowed to play in Europeen Team ProLeague". What would be totally right...
It has already been hashed and rehashed in the thread like 20 times. It is frustrating but something that is going to happen when posters are careless.
Those types of posts aren't even worth quoting, chalk it up as a crappy post and move on.
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On December 23 2015 02:10 yolteotl wrote:
Come on...
The best non-korean ladder is EU, and even those top EU players don't deserve to be "well" represented in a tournament.
Having those reserved spots for south america, and others is a joke. I don't want to be mean with all those guys who love and play Starcraft, but not one of those player would be able to be GM in Europe. (as almost no European would be able to be GM in Korea)
So Blizzard wants to save Starcraft by kicking korean out and pay travel to top diam/low master player to Leipzig? Probably some magical stuff I can't understand...
Dude. Moonglade has been GM in Korea. I hate the system as much as anyone but to say Europeans couldn't be GM in Korea is farcical
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On December 23 2015 02:58 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 02:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up. Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet. On December 23 2015 02:47 Bjarne wrote:
I really dont get the point why people are freakin out that much because of the region lock. In my opinion, this is a matter of course! This system is quite common in most other kindes of sport.
If not, 1 of the following 3 Bayern München, Real Madrid and FC Barcelona would win German Soccer Championship, Frech Soccer Championship, Italian, Spanish, Swedisch, Dutch, Polish, Russian, Swiss, Austrian etc. But they are only allowed to play in their own region. And thats good. Sure, games in the German Bundesliga would be on a higher level, if all the top EU-Teams would participate, but noone wants that. We want to see our own teams, even if they are less competitive. For the bigger spotlight we have the Championsleague. And thats good as it is.
Did you ever see Brazil winning the Europeam Soccer Championship? Would you like to see Germany win the africa-Cup??
Me not, definetly not. So why should [Isert Random Kespa-A-Teamer] win WCS EU??
I see thats its a poor system if there would be not a single "Global", but we dont know yet. Have you just compared national leagues and World Championship Series, lmao. Just asking: from your signature, you watch both SC2 and LoL, right? Which do you watch/like more?
RTS as a genre was always more interesting to me, due to amount of storylines avaliable, plus it allows an ability to evaluate the single player properly and so on.
Of course I watch more League, because there is simply more League (around 70-100 competitive games per week during the season), but if I have to choose between, let's say, OGN LCK final and Proleague final, I'll choose Proleague 11 times of 10.
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On December 23 2015 02:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +
I do not mean to be aggressive to anyone. I also understand how unfair it feels. But how fair to non-Koreans previous system were? If infrastructure and social acceptance to games were the same in Korea as all the other parts of the world (and I mean non-existent), I would boycott the hell out of this system.
Uh, perfectly fair? It's not like they were giving those titles, money and fame just for showing up. Foreigners love to act as victims in every game where they're beaten consistently, I'm surprised that genetics argument hadn't appeared in this thread yet.
Sorry, I had in my mind WCS America = WCS Korea B when I was writing this. Not exactly last WCS. And I don't love to act as victim, I'm just less short-sighted and I don't see SC2 as a game of current professional players and current professional players only. Although it's probably too hopeful of me to see regional scenes rising with the new system as much as I hope they would. Maybe it was just one-shot thing that will never come back.
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EPT
