|
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
|
On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league.
I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is.
I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin.
Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
|
On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth?
If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end.
My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth.
|
On December 23 2015 03:59 Silvana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument. I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth? If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end. My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth.
As we all know how much recent year or two promoted regional growth and interest in the game. I love Korea and their super-competitive play and I watch it as much as I can, but I'd like to see both environments flourishing. To me pros of new WCS system outweigh cons. It may not solve the problem of foreigner-Korean skill gap, but neither last systems. At least not directly.
And no, I'm not one of those who hate Koreans and back this system because of how it can be perceived as rigged against Koreans, so take back your racism card. I agree with the idea of more regional events. Not occasional community-ran online invitationals for foreigners with $200 prize pool. But I see again and again that I'm trying to discuss different thing
|
If I think about it this "region"-definition would be fair if (approximately):
1. Korean Tournaments offer much more price money than in the other "region".
2. The price money in Korean Tournaments is spread much wider into lower ranks than in the other region.
3. Blizzcon finals is a 64 Player Tournament with Top 62 Koreans plus Top 2 foreigners. As it is planned we will have 8 players from the worlds Top 8 plus 8 players from the worlds "Top-random-rank-above-50" in the world finals. OMG I could even imagine bilzzard puts koreans all in one half of the final bracket to guarantee a foreigner in the final.
In my opinion foreign SC2-Pros receive too much money for how they perform. They have no motivation to train as hard and become
as good as real pros (in admittetely professional environment) do
|
oh boy not sure how to feel about this+ Show Spoiler + Qualifiers/spots: NA (2) EU (2) LATAM (1) CN (1) TW (1) ANZ/SEA (1) 
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
It may not solve the problem of foreigner-Korean skill gap, but neither last systems
Why is it a problem?
Why should foreigners be same in the achievements level to Koreans? Especially, when some tries to artificially set it up.
All those foreigner vs Korea storylines throughout the years are based on the underdog storyline, be that LoL or Starcraft. Jinro, HuK, Stephano and NaNiwa endeavours were exciting to watch mainly because they weren't considered Goliaths at any point. They were around the same level skillwise with the top players, so it's not like it's unreal to compete.
It is same in LoL since 2012, that's why Gambit's heroics at IEM Katowice 2013 were considered a miracle, especially in the world, where Korea without 80+ players including like 20+ top caliber ones leaving the region, can murder World Championship in 2015 by dropping 3 games from 27, getting KRvsKR final for the first time and third team has only lost to other Korean team in the bracket stage.
|
On December 23 2015 03:59 Silvana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument. I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth? If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end. My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth.
The problem is it makes it harder and almost impossible for new talent to grow in Korea with this new system. Foreigners will have at least 11 tournaments for them and Korea will have 5. It makes it so much more difficult for us to find the next Life, Flash or herO because they have so little chance to win anything at all.
|
On December 23 2015 04:12 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:59 Silvana wrote:On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument. I want to address this point particularly. You compare WCS Circuit with Belgian Pro League. But the situation is very different. WCS Circuit is not "Belgium", it is literally "everywhere except Korea". First, how do you think that contributes to regional growth? If your answer lies in the lines of "because even if the American guy doesn't win RedBull, for the audience seeing an European win is better than seeing a Korean win", then sorry but I think it is a matter of racism in the end. My point is that "Everything except Korea" is not a region, so you can use it as an excuse to foster regional growth. As we all know how much recent year or two promoted regional growth and interest in the game. I love Korea and their super-competitive play and I watch it as much as I can, but I'd like to see both environments flourishing. To me pros of new WCS system outweigh cons. It may not solve the problem of foreigner-Korean skill gap, but neither last systems. At least not directly. And no, I'm not one of those who hate Koreans and back this system because of how it can be perceived as rigged against Koreans, so take back your racism card. I agree with the idea of more regional events. Not occasional community-ran online invitationals for foreigners with $200 prize pool. But I see again and again that I'm trying to discuss different thing
I am sorry, but I fail to see how you answered my question of how this new system promotes regional growth.
I don't know what it means to pull the racist card either, but I wasn't calling you racist personally.
Edit: Agreed with you AWalker9. What you mention is the part that hurts me most of this new system. I see a lot of things that I believe are wrong (aka won't work as intended) and other things I personally dislike (aka are not wrong but I don't like them), but I'm not in the mood of talking about all them.
|
On December 23 2015 02:28 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 01:35 Penev wrote:On December 22 2015 23:25 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 23:14 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:49 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:44 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
[quote]
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined. It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything. Copied from Diaboliques list: 1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra
2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans
3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN
4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN
5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol
6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG
7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy
8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt
9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark Hurricane pretty much the only small name on the list. Sorry. Soulkey, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TRUE, Pigbaby, Terminator, TaeJa, Leenock, Symbol, Losira, SuperNova, YongHwa, Hurricane ... Learn to count! :-) These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague. So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that. Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them. User was warned for this post I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection? Let me help you  . He posted 4 times in a row
Why thanks Deathstar but none of them seem warning worthy. He just exaggerates a bit to prove a point maybe
|
On December 23 2015 01:35 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2015 23:25 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 23:14 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:49 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:44 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 20:42 aQuaSC wrote:
[quote]
Ah, I understand. Sorry Diabolique if you felt insulted. I just couldn't help but see that you "shit" on foreigners stating that foreigner scene is irrelevant at all and only Korea (along with those that don't hold achievements) with foreigners who achieved something significant during last five years are the people that community should focus on. And only these are important to you. I can understand that obviously, I'd be pretty pissed if I was a big football fan and Champions League was resized all of a sudden to hold less champion-caliber teams for few that don't always qualify because of the barrier they need to break.
And again - to me the worst thing about this system is the fact that it was introduced too late, after Koreans were let all over the world for the money to grab therefore extremely shrinking foreign scene. I said in other thread, that with the last systems to really break out in a non-WCS tournament to gain visibility you needed to be very lucky or incredibly good out of nothing - not having access to practice with Koreans on regular basis and be able to beat few of the KeSPA guys. Basically perform a miracle. But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere. I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify). I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon. Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer. Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined. It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything. Copied from Diaboliques list: 1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra
2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans
3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN
4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN
5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol
6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG
7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy
8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt
9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark Hurricane pretty much the only small name on the list. Sorry. Soulkey, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TRUE, Pigbaby, Terminator, TaeJa, Leenock, Symbol, Losira, SuperNova, YongHwa, Hurricane ... Learn to count! :-) These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague. So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that. Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them. User was warned for this post I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection?
Edit: Huh, you mean not just in this discussion but in the actual thread. It's silly to do that but I didn't know you get a warning for it.
ACTUAL EDIT: those 2 buttons D:
|
On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument.
Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing.
|
On December 23 2015 05:03 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 01:35 Penev wrote:On December 22 2015 23:25 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 23:14 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:49 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:44 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 20:57 Diabolique wrote:
[quote]
But I am not shitting on any foreigners. Maybe Desrow, maybe Mana when they started to celebrate the new system. Snute is a good guy, I never saw any tweet "celebrating" the new system from him. And his comment was awesome, saying, how he would be happy to have the opportunity to still compete with the Koreans somewhere.
I am even not saying that foreigners are bad. I am even not the kind of guy, who would just follow the highest level of SC2 only. Without the casters, I would be unable to recognize it. I even do not like that much GSL and SSL, in fact, I want to watch them only when my favorite player, sOs is playing. And with this new system, there is a big probability, he will not be playing any of them (= he will not qualify).
I am angry, because this is not justice! This is injustice! Banning the best players from ALL international tournaments, reducing their own local events, this is significantly reducing their life options. How can people exist, who support this? This huge injustice! They could have created a new WCS circuit, they could have stolen DreamHack, it was anyway 99% foreigners and a few B-class Koreans always ... But cancelling it all? That is bad. OK, maybe, at the end, somebody will organize ONE INTERNATIONAL EVENT. So the Koreans will have this one event and BlizzCon.
Were I a Korean pro, I would retire. Were I a young Korean, trying to become a pro, I would stop. Because the market is now too small for so many good players. This is fucking bad! Damaging the Korean scene is the way, they want to bring Koreans and foreigners closer.
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined. It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything. Copied from Diaboliques list: 1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra
2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans
3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN
4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN
5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol
6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG
7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy
8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt
9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark Hurricane pretty much the only small name on the list. Sorry. Soulkey, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TRUE, Pigbaby, Terminator, TaeJa, Leenock, Symbol, Losira, SuperNova, YongHwa, Hurricane ... Learn to count! :-) These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague. So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that. Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them. User was warned for this post I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection? Edit: Huh, you mean not just in this discussion but in the actual thread. It's silly to do that but I didn't know you get a warning for it. ACTUAL EDIT: those 2 buttons D:
Careful there Penev 
|
Well, this year is probably going to be interesting for many reasons.
I really wonder if it was the tournaments organizers that pushed Blizzard into this kind of anti Korea locking ( lets be real, that's what it is )
|
On December 23 2015 04:37 Silvana wrote:I am sorry, but I fail to see how you answered my question of how this new system promotes regional growth.
I believe that you can't grow skill and interest within region "inviting" Koreans to tournaments practicing on their own, practice-wise better server. There has to be an incentive that local players can reach. I just don't see how tournament games with top Korean players can be seen as potential practice for players from a region, that is holding that tournament. Someone help me understand that.
I don't know what it means to pull the racist card either, but I wasn't calling you racist personally.
Shows how bad of a debater I am.
|
On December 23 2015 05:06 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument. Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing.
Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway...
|
On December 23 2015 05:08 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 05:03 Penev wrote:On December 23 2015 01:35 Penev wrote:On December 22 2015 23:25 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 23:14 p4ch1n0 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:49 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:44 Diabolique wrote:On December 22 2015 22:40 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On December 22 2015 22:35 AWalker9 wrote:On December 22 2015 22:13 p4ch1n0 wrote:
[quote]
Yes i'm sad that we won't see koreans play at foreign tournaments. But it's not like these top koreans who went to foreign tournaments will starve to death without the money. They make a good living regardles. Also gsl rewards 100k$ more and Blizzcon 250k more than 2015. That is more money than the prizepool of dh and iem combined. It's really bad for B-tier and up and coming Koreans though as there's less opportunities to earn money and get noticed and earn anything. Copied from Diaboliques list: 1. IEM Taipei - herO, HyuN, Polt, Rain, Classic, Life, Soulkey, PartinG, Maru, TRUE, Hydra
2. IEM WC - 16 top Koreans
3. DH Tours - Rain, PartinG, MC, FanTaSy, GuMiho, MMA, TRUE, Hydra, HyuN
4. HSC XI - PartinG, Rain, GuMiho, HyuN
5. DH Valencia - Pigbaby, Terminator, HerO, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TaeJa, TRUE, HyuN, Leenock, Curious, Symbol
6. IEM Shenzhen - Losira, TY, SuperNova, Classic, Rain, YongHwa, herO, PartinG
7. IEM gamescom - soO, MMA, INnoVation, FanTaSy
8. MSI - INnoVation, Hydra, PartinG, HyuN, sOs, Solar, Jaedong, viOLet, Polt
9. DH Stockholm - HerO, Hurricane, sOs, Rain, FanTaSy, TRUE, Jaedong, Curious, Leenock, HyuN, Solar, Dark Hurricane pretty much the only small name on the list. Sorry. Soulkey, FanTaSy, GuMiho, TRUE, Pigbaby, Terminator, TaeJa, Leenock, Symbol, Losira, SuperNova, YongHwa, Hurricane ... Learn to count! :-) These are the names, who do not have much chance to make it far in the 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. And can't compete anywhere else. Except for the one cup. OK are only those, who play Proleague. So giving money to not top tier players is good for the sceene? I might be having a dejavu, but i think i have heard of a system that tries to do exactly that. Well, the not top tier Koreans were going to the DH events, where the top tier ones were not going. And that helped them to get the confidence and also some money. That was good for them. User was warned for this post I don't understand this warning and the post wasn't edited. Am I lacking detection? Edit: Huh, you mean not just in this discussion but in the actual thread. It's silly to do that but I didn't know you get a warning for it. ACTUAL EDIT: those 2 buttons D: Careful there Penev
I could stop it at 2 there, phew.. :p
|
On December 23 2015 05:48 HsDLTitich wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 05:06 maartendq wrote:On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument. Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing. Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway...
And why do you think they have a "locked" amount of teams that get to come from EU?
|
On December 23 2015 07:23 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 05:48 HsDLTitich wrote:On December 23 2015 05:06 maartendq wrote:On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument. Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing. Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway... And why do you think they have a "locked" amount of teams that get to come from EU?
Here we go again with team sports references...How many times can we repeat this discussion in a day?
|
On December 23 2015 07:23 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 05:48 HsDLTitich wrote:On December 23 2015 05:06 maartendq wrote:On December 23 2015 03:30 aQuaSC wrote:On December 23 2015 03:21 maartendq wrote:
Barring Koreans from competing in WCS is like barring black people from participating in track running events at the olympics.
If the foreigners want to win prizes they should put in more practice. Right now WCS is charity league. I disagree, barring Koreans from competing in regional WCS (I'll omit your ignorant omission of WCS Korea, isn't that racist? /s) is a little bit like barring teams from UK's Premier League from entering Belgian Pro League. I may be wrong there, I don't watch Belgian football but I didn't hear about it being as competitive as British is. I can imagine initial excitement about Premier League teams competing in Belgium and equal to yours disgust when they would leave all of a sudden leaving local infrastructure in ruin. Oh, someone wanted a genetics argument. Those few times per decade I watch football, I watch to see high-level football. I don't care which team plays. The same goes for Starcraft: I watch it because I enjoy high-level play, not because people from my region are playing. Also, let me help you here: it's true, at the World Cup we can see teams from all over the world. But guess what, it's not like Argentina/Brazil/Germany/Italy/Spain are banned because they're too strong. Yes, you can see Togo and New Zealand play, but I'm sure that a World Cup where there are only second tier teams won't be as much followed by football fans. I mean, people can watch Spain vs Angola, spanish fans will cheer for their team while the rest of the world will cheer for the underdog hoping in a Cinderella story; but very few will tune for Trinidad/Tobago vs North Korea anyway... And why do you think they have a "locked" amount of teams that get to come from EU?
Because FIFA is racist /s
I agree fully with all statements regarding potentially, or almost surely hurting (arguably overexpanded) Korean scene, one of the worst things about new WCS is the fact that it limited their options - options that they got on expense of suffocating and almost completely suffocated foreigner scene hanging on "hopes" and no real possibility of infrastructure. It's obvious that SC2 needs healthy Korean scene, it's limited with this system, but not killed yet. To get football as a reference again: imagine a situation, where there are best teams practicing in the best environments with best coaches, can choose what region they play in, no region-lock over any continent, best teams spreading to all countries and different continents and all of a sudden all players are hurt by new rule stating that you need to be a citizen of the country that you play for. It possibly would be the best possible football you could have, but it's not, since the biggest national competition is considered national, not "best". Some European A teams could compete with B teams from Spain or Italy. It should be "World Championship Series", not "Best Championship Series" or something that we got throughout these few years. I would argue that it's not even a bad thing, people have already seen the best StarCraft play and won't turn again to the lower skill games. I understand it. To me WCS should bear some values of what WCG once was. I will still support SC2, despite being "welfare" for some time. It was like almost exactly like that back in the day.
I'm browsing right now through old and older tournaments SC2 and Brood War had, and I don't remember any outrage about so many tournaments not having Koreans. I wish WCS never became a thing the entire SC2 player community should be about. Local competitions should be given more importance. But they were not, thanks to too quick openness to Korean playerbase. It's not a bad thing that it happened. It could be other way though.
I understand how delicate this player ecosystem can be but it was already continuously hurt by Korean scene since the day they were invited to IEM World Championship in 2011. Progaming scenes so different should not have clashed and be merged this early. They were not equal. Ever. These and following invites should never have happened. I see this system as a last opportunity to try to revive non-Korean scene.
This system should be like this or similar in the first place.
Personally, if I were to win some money from this "welfare" system or gain it in the scene some other way I would donate it to Korean "B-teamer charity".
On December 23 2015 07:32 MaCRo.gg wrote:
Here we go again with team sports references...How many times can we repeat this discussion in a day?
Sorry for team sport reference, it's my last one, I promise, I haven't seen your post when I was writing mine
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
