The WCS format for the coming year has now been announced and we are here to give you the details. While he full text can be found below, we have written a quick summary right here that has the meat of the announcement for 2016. The long and short is that next year will have more prize money and the WCS system will incorporate a larger number of events under its umbrella.
Bigger Prize Pool
From $1.6 million to over $2 million total.
Additional Tournament Support
WCS events receive prize pool support from Blizzard
GSL and SSL have significantly more prize money
Global Events -> more money
More Opportunities for Local Players
Blizzard will support more regional cups in order to foster local growth.
WCS System Changed
Two regions: WCS Korea and WCS Circuit
Top 8 from each go to the WCS Playoffs
Winners of WCS Playoffs go to WCS Finals
Global Events add to their points tally
There is the possibility for combined Korea+Circuit events under the heading of “WCS Global” but there's no confirmed events yet so we're unsure what form these will take
WCS Korea
Anyone can participate
GSL and SSL
2 seasons per year
The 4 champs get direct seeds to WCS Playoffs
Other 4 spots go to those with highest points tally
Cross-finals at the end of each season with GSL vs SSL champ
WCS Circuit Events also residency/citizenship locked
Blizzard may support Circuit Events with prize pool sponsorship
3 winners of Circuit Championships will get direct seeds to WCS Playoffs
Other 5 spots go to players with the highest points tally
WCS Circuit Championship Format
$150,000 prize pool
32 Players
Single Elimination
1st place receives WCS Global Playoffs seed
10,000+ points
WCS Playoffs/WCS Finals
Playoffs: GSL Style Groups - 4 groups of 4 players
Players will be winners of championships from their respective regions and players who accumulate the most WCS points from within their region
Groups consist of 2 players from WCS Korea, 2 players from WCS Circuit
Winners go to single elimination 8 man bracket (WCS Finals)
$200,000 first place/$100,000 second place/$500,000 total prize pool
Blizzard Announcement:
As another great year of StarCraft II esports winds down, we’re excited to share details on our plans for the 2016 World Championship Series.
This was a wonderful year for StarCraft II esports. With the emotional Season 2 Global StarCraft II League (GSL) Finals, the spectacular action at the Season 3 World Championship Series Finals, and the nail-biting WCS Global Grand Finals, there were many awesome moments for StarCraft II esports fans. Now with the launch of Legacy of the Void and a brand-new year of StarCraft II esports on the horizon, we’re eager to build on this momentum with some exciting changes for 2016.
When looking at changes for the upcoming year, we wanted to focus on truly enhancing the parts of the system that worked well in 2015.
In the WCS Premier League, one of the most memorable points this year came in Krakow, Poland, as an energetic home crowd cheered on one of their hometown heroes in the finals. It was a great example of the connection the community has with their local players and the excitement that this type of connection can bring. In 2016, we’re looking to create more of these moments than ever by placing a higher emphasis on thrilling weekend events. And to help us, we’ve partnered with two top-notch esports organizations, ESL and DreamHack. With the extensive experience these organizations have in running world-class live events, we’re excited to see what this year brings.
Looking at Korea in 2015, we were amazed by the level of talent on display in the Global StarCraft II League (GSL) and StarCraft II StarLeague (SSL). The players winning these tournaments truly earned the distinction of being the best of the best. In 2016, we’d like to more formally recognize these leagues for what they are—the highest level of StarCraft II competition in the world. With the help of our partners AfreecaTV and SPOTV, we’ve made changes to reflect the prominence of the GSL and SSL. For example, we’ll be helping to elevate the storylines in the two leagues through the crowning of a single champion. Any player looking to play among the very best is encouraged to compete in these tournaments.
With a new expansion, we felt that this was a perfect time to make significant improvements to the WCS system. In collaboration with our partners and key members of the esports community, we’ve come up with some adjustments that we hope will further enhance the WCS experience for players and spectators, and will continue fostering a vibrant StarCraft II esports ecosystem in 2016 and beyond.
Before we dive into the specifics of the 2016 WCS format, we’d like to highlight some of the key changes we’re making to the WCS system.
2016 WCS CHANGES—HIGHLIGHTS
Bigger total prize pool
This year, the Blizzard-sponsored prize pool is being increased from $1.6 million in 2015 to over $2 million in 2016—with the prize pool for the WCS Global Finals now totaling $500,000.
Two tournament standings
The WCS point system will now be split into two standings. The WCS Korea Standings, representing the highest level of competition, will include players participating in the GSL and SSL tournaments in Korea. They’ll be open to any player willing to take up the challenge of league play.
The WCS Circuit Standings, an evolution of the previous year’s WCS Premier League, will provide a proving ground for stars in other regions through a variety of tournaments around the world. These tournaments will be residency-locked to help focus on providing more opportunities to expose, develop, and celebrate the top talent from regions outside of Korea.
At the end of the year, eight players will move on from each system to participate in the WCS Global Playoffs. We’re hoping this split provides true global representation in the WCS Global Playoffs, where the best players from the various regions will be represented. The WCS Global Finals will still feature the best players, regardless of region, as only the top eight from the WCS Global Playoffs will move on to battle it out on the main stage of the WCS Global Finals.
Additional tournament support
While the WCS Premier League created consistent action throughout the year, the studio broadcasts could not match the energy and excitement of live tournaments. Rather than continue to produce these broadcasts, the new system will focus on further elevating existing live events through direct support and through offering a more open calendar for them to occur.
Multiple tournaments will receive more support throughout the year. Select WCS Circuit events, Regional Challengers, and the WCS Circuit Championships will all receive bonus prize pool support directly from Blizzard. Eligible players who qualify through designated WCS Circuit qualifiers will also receive support to travel to and compete in these events.
GSL and SSL will also feature significantly more prize money, and WCS Global Events will further bolster the prize pool tally.
Direct spots in the WCS Global Finals
While the WCS point standings have created some exciting moments leading up to the WCS Global Finals, we wanted the path to the WCS Global Finals to consistently have this level of excitement across the year. To achieve this, players can earn a direct spot in the WCS Global Playoffs by winning the most prestigious events of the year.
A total of seven spots will be up for grabs for championship winners. This includes four spots from the WCS Korea system (GSL and SSL winners in Season 1 and 2) and three spots from the WCS Circuit system (Winter Championship, Spring Championship, and Summer Championship winners). The remaining spots will be awarded to the top point earners for each of the standings (four spots in the WCS Korea system and five spots in the WCS Circuit system).
GSL & SSL Cross-Finals
With a more evenly distributed prize pool in the GSL and SSL, we wanted to further incentivize players to strive to become the best of the best. Players who win the GSL and SSL tournaments each season will face off to determine the top player in the WCS Korea system.
More opportunities for local players
In addition to the WCS systems, Blizzard will sponsor Regional Cups to increase opportunities for regional competition throughout the year.
2016 WCS FORMAT
WCS KOREA STANDINGS
The WCS Korea Standings, open to all players globally, represent the most competitive StarCraft II tournament system, where the very best of the best players go head to head. The vast majority of the league play in this system will take place in Korea, where the highest number of professional StarCraft II teams and players live, train, and compete.
To make it so more people can follow these exciting tournaments and to open up space in the schedule for the cross-finals, each league will operate two seasons next year, with a significant increase in prize pool for the leagues. We are also working with our partners to offer GSL and SSL rebroadcasts during additional peak times.
In order to earn points for the WCS Korea Standings, players must compete in one or both of the two official global leagues (GSL and SSL). Players can also earn WCS Korea points by competing in sanctioned WCS Global Events. Third-party tournament organizers can apply to host a Blizzard-approved WCS Global Event if they meet specific requirements.
Individual League Format
GSL – AfreecaTV
Season 1: Code S (Ro32)
30 players from Code A (Ro60)
2 players from GSL preseason
Season 2: Code S (Ro32)
24 players from Code A (Ro48)
8 players from previous Code S
₩230,000,000 per season
27,200 points per season
SSL – SPOTV
Qualifier -> StarLeague (Ro16): Top 4 players from Ro16 will be seeded in Season 2
₩134,000,000 per season
20,800 points per season
Top WCS Korea Standings point earners and champions from GSL and SSL receive direct slots into the WCS Global Playoffs. There are eight spots up for grabs total:
GSL Season 1 Champion (1)
GSL Season 2 Champion (1)
SSL Season 1 Champion (1)
SSL Season 2 Champion (1)
WCS Korea Standings (4)
Each season of GSL and SSL will conclude with an epic GSL vs. SSL cross-final match, bringing together the top two players from each league.
GSL & SSL Cross-Finals
Top two GSL players versus top two SSL players
1 vs. 1 matches and Archon matches
Prize pool: ₩30,000,000+
1,000 points for the winner
WCS CIRCUIT STANDINGS
The WCS Circuit system is an evolution of last year’s WCS Premier League, with the goal of further enhancing the quality of StarCraft II play in all regions. The WCS Circuit Standings represent pro players living and competing in any region where the StarCraft II competitive scene is still developing and growing, including North America (NA), Europe (EU), Latin America (LATAM), China (CN), Taiwan/Hong Kong/Macau (TW), and Australia/New Zealand/Southeast Asia (ANZ/SEA). In order to compete in the WCS Circuit, players must be citizens or residents in one of the eligible regions. Any non-citizen player will be required to compete regularly on the local ladder, and will have other guidelines to fulfill. You can read the expanded 2016 residency rules in our Requirements blog.
One of our goals with the WCS Circuit is to create more opportunities for highly skilled hometown heroes to pull off epic moments on grand stages in front of cheering crowds. The best of these players will advance to the WCS Global Playoffs to test their mettle against the highest tier of pro gamers in the world. We’re working with our partners to encourage the development of skilled players all across the globe, through travel support, prizing, and by exposing players to international and local competition.
In order to earn points for the WCS Circuit Standings, players must travel to and compete in tournaments that are part of the WCS Circuit. These include sanctioned WCS Circuit Events and WCS Circuit Championship events. Third-party tournament organizers can apply to be a Blizzard-approved WCS Circuit Event if they meet specific requirements. All WCS Circuit Championships and up to eight WCS Circuit events will receive prize-pool and player-travel support directly from Blizzard. Players can also earn WCS Circuit points by competing in sanctioned WCS Global Events. As mentioned above, third-party tournament organizers can apply to host a Blizzard-approved WCS Global Event if they meet specific requirements.
WCS Circuit Championship Format
$150,000 prize pool
32 Players
Single Elimination
1st place receives WCS Global Playoffs seed
10,000+ points
Top WCS Circuit Standings point earners and champions from the WCS Circuit Championships will receive direct slots in the WCS Global Playoffs. There are eight spots up for grabs total:
WCS Winter Champion (1 spot)
WCS Spring Champion (1 spot)
WCS Summer Champion (1 spot)
WCS Circuit Standings (5 spots)
The WCS Regional Challenger events will be held prior to the WCS Circuit Championships. Each of the six regions will be represented with their own Regional Challenger event and seed directly into the upcoming WCS Circuit Championship.
WCS Circuit Events will represent a wide range of tournament sizes from traditional $25,000 tournaments to the $150,000 Championships. Players will travel all over the world to shape their skills and hone their strategies. These events are split into two tiers: 5000-point events and 2500-point events. The level of the event is directly tied to the size of the prize pool and the regional requirements.
Each WCS Circuit Event will be an international affair that also highlights the passion of local StarCraft II players. Organizers will be free to allocate the regional spots not supported via paid travel and accommodations by Blizzard. For more information on the WCS Circuit Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Circuit Events—5000
$50,000 prize pool
16+ players
Minimum 8 players from Circuit Passport qualifiers from six regions
NA (2), EU (2), LATAM (1), CN (1), TW (1), ANZ/SEA (1)
Must be citizens of their representative region
5,000 points
WCS Circuit Events—2500
$25,000 prize pool
8+ players
Open to all 6 regions: NA, EU, LATAM, CN, TW, ANZ/SEA
2,500 points
Blizzard 5000 Boost
Any WCS 2500 Circuit Event can apply to be boosted by Blizzard to the 5000 level, with an additional $25,000 in prizing sponsored by Blizzard to increase the grand total for each boosted event to $50,000. Blizzard will also sponsor eight players in the citizenship-locked Circuit Passport qualifiers to level up the competition. The Blizzard Boost will be open to up to eight events during WCS 2016.
WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Global Events—7500
$50,000+ prize pool
16+ Players
7,500 points
Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit
Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
WCS GLOBAL PLAYOFFS
The WCS Global Playoff (which took place during BlizzCon Opening Week in 2015) will be an event hosted by Blizzard Entertainment that brings the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems together.
Players
Eight players from WCS Korea competition
GSL Season 1 Champion (1)
GSL Season 2 Champion (1)
SSL Season 1 Champion (1)
SSL Season 2 Champion (1)
WCS Korea Standings (4)
Eight players from WCS Circuit competition
WCS Winter Champion (1)
WCS Spring Champion (1)
WCS Summer Champion (1)
WCS Circuit Standings (5)
Format
Group player distribution (four groups)
WCS Korea Standings (2)
WCS Circuit Standings (2)
Double-elimination best-of-three
Prizing
9th–16th place – $10,000
1st–8th – advance through WCS Global Finals (prizing details below)
WCS GLOBAL FINALS
After a full year of competition and an intense journey through the WCS Global Playoffs, players will meet one last time at the WCS Global Finals, where the world champion will be crowned. This year, we’re doubling the prizing to recognize the feats of the exceptional players who make it to the top. The WCS Global Finals represent the pinnacle of excellence in StarCraft II competition, and only one champion will be crowned and have their name affixed to the Gosu Trophy for all time!
Players
Top eight players from the WCS Global Playoffs
Format
Single-elimination best-of-five
Best-of-seven finals
Prizing
$500,000 total (including WCS Global Playoffs)
1st place—$200,000
2nd place—$100,000
3rd–4th place—$30,000
5th–8th place—$15,000
WCS 2016 PRIZE POOL AND POINTS
WCS KOREA SYSTEM
The GSL and SSL are the most prestigious StarCraft II tournaments in the world, and for WCS 2016, the prize pool and points are increasing! The prizing for the Korean leagues will significantly increase, and we’re adding a special new cross-finals competition with its own prize pool .
WCS CIRCUIT SYSTEM
The overall prize pool for the WCS Circuit has increased in 2016, but the distribution of the prize pool and points will spread to more tournaments and goes deeper than ever before. The combination of Regional Cups, Regional Challengers, Circuit Events, and Circuit Championships will provide many more opportunities to gain points and prizes.
Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports
We’re excited for what’s to come in 2016. We look forward to seeing what new stories await us and what special moments we’ll all share together. If you’re looking to keep up to date on the happenings around WCS, keep an eye on the WCS website and on our Twitter and Facebook pages for more!
If you’re interested in partnering with Blizzard on any of our new initiatives for 2016, please reach out to esportsteam@blizzard.com. For more details on our 2016 plans, check out our Requirements blog.
I love the fact that there'll be GSL/SSL cross competition events, and I like that Korean leagues give such ridiculous amounts of WCS points. But I find this system rather convoluted.
On December 18 2015 06:24 minigwar wrote: Cross finals between GSL and SSL, what if same person wins....?
If they don't add anything else I'll be very dissappointed, it'll be worse than the rumors, since atleast then you were able to enjoy 6 good korean leagues!
So RO16 of the next Blizzcon will be 4 groups each of 2 Koreans and 2 foreigners... That will be interesting, the biggest obstacle for Koreans in advancing is jet lag
Anyway, can someone please compare prize pools? I mean using 2 currencies seems to me suspicious, but that's me, paranoid person(they are watching!).
Don't like this convoluted system... Maybe it will suit a smaller pool of players, but I don't think this is an improvement. And I hope to be wrong, but I think Global Finals are really going to suck.
Can't help but think it would be MUCH better for Koreans if they had more GSL/SSL seasons with less points per season. Now sure they give a ton of points, but if you don't qualify you're just fucked. More seasons would mean that it wouldn't be so incredibly brutal.
I just think Blizzard totally missed the mark with this. I don't think anybody wanted region locked weekend tournaments. It'd make sense if the GSL was region locked for Korea, WCS was region locked for not-korea, and weekend tournaments were still things.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I'll still enjoy it, I just think the lack of Koreans at weekend tournaments will be quite a shame and likely get old fast. The Dreamhacks I remember most are the Dreamhack Stockholm Thorzain won, and the DreamHuK. The MLGs I remember most are MLG Orlando 2011 (HuK's victory), MLG Providence 2011 (Naniwa's silver to Leenock), and that MLG where Stephano was doing well but Sase made an INCREDIBLE run from the open bracket to 4th place.
Without opportunities such as that, it's going to be hard to get into.
Edit: I should add, those are just the events I remember MOST. I also remember the HerO vs Puma wars, IPL5, That MLG that MKP won (though I think HuK made a good run there and beat Parting just before Parting went into beast mode the rest of the year) etc. Just saying, the most memorable events are ones that have both foriegners and koreans IMO.
On December 18 2015 06:27 [PkF] Wire wrote: Don't like this convoluted system... Maybe it will suit a smaller pool of players, but I don't think this is an improvement. And I hope to be wrong, but I think Global Finals are really going to suck.
I am afraid about teams getting smaller and Koreans outside KeSPA leaving SC2 since they cannot into Proleague Damn
This kind of announcement ignores the reason why Koreans are so much better to begin with. Koreans are not inherently better at StarCraft in any way. They are human beings just like everyone else.
When you isolate the Koreans into their own, much more competitive ecosystem, you deprive the foreign scene of the necessary barometer for quality that they need. You lack anything to compare their talent against.
Putting the Koreans in a protective bubble to keep them from slaughtering foreigners is not going to improve the skill of the foreigners in any way. It's only going to artificially prop them up and promote lower quality games for everyone.
This is fucking terrible. Mark my words, 8 Koreans will advance to the Ro8 a the Global Finals.
On December 18 2015 06:31 Elentos wrote: Oh wait, did I read that right, out of the 4 groups at the global playoffs, 2 will be full Korean and 2 will be full foreigner? Oh dear.
Check the picture again, each group will consist of 2 Koreans and 2 foreigners, GSL type group, top2 advance
The GSL and SSL are the most prestigious StarCraft II tournaments in the world, and for WCS 2016, the prize pool and points are increasing!
This is so misleading it's not even funny. Who cares if GSL/SSL point earnings increase if they're not being compared against NA/EU point earnings? Literally the only people this change benefits is foreigners who go to Korea and do well, although if they're that talented, they should just stay in WCS Circuit and clean house, because that will be infinitely easier.
The number of KR Koreans at Blizzcon is hard capped at 8, they can win a billion points or 50 points, it makes zero difference.
On December 18 2015 06:31 Elentos wrote: Oh wait, did I read that right, out of the 4 groups at the global playoffs, 2 will be full Korean and 2 will be full foreigner? Oh dear.
The infographic clearly indicates every group will be 2 Koreans + 2 Foreigners.
Sigh, I understand that foreigners want foreigners to win, but I wish it was just all up to skill. All Koreans in the global finals? Great! Mixture? Great, if the foreigners deserve to be there.
Too much stuff trying to help out foreigners. Keep it separate or open everything up for both sides.
On December 18 2015 06:31 Elentos wrote: Oh wait, did I read that right, out of the 4 groups at the global playoffs, 2 will be full Korean and 2 will be full foreigner? Oh dear.
The infographic clearly indicates every group will be 2 Koreans + 2 Foreigners.
On December 18 2015 06:32 DinoMight wrote: This kind of announcement ignores the reason why Koreans are so much better to begin with. Koreans are not inherently better at StarCraft in any way. They are human beings just like everyone else.
When you isolate the Koreans into their own, much more competitive ecosystem, you deprive the foreign scene of the necessary barometer for quality that they need. You lack anything to compare their talent against.
Putting the Koreans in a protective bubble to keep them from slaughtering foreigners is not going to improve the skill of the foreigners in any way. It's only going to artificially prop them up and promote lower quality games for everyone.
This is fucking terrible. Mark my words, 8 Koreans will advance to the Ro8 a the Global Finals.
Also this creates much harsh environment in Korea where only the bestest of best prevail. Thus increasing their skill much more. Now some Koreans cannot go "who cares, I can win almost every foreigner event. There's a reason why there's some predator in lakes if you want to eat those fishes at some point. Otherwise they get fat, lazy and are not good for eating
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans, Koreans still have their GSLs, SSLs and maybe KeSPA Cups, WCS Circuit Championships which replaces WCS seasons are still mostly foreigners with some Koreans who have visa, the only thing new is the WCS Circuit Events which basically are smaller DHs/IEMs that are locked to foreigners and Blizzard is helping those. My only concern with the leak was locking DH/IEM to foreigners, now that is out of the question I don't have an issue with this.
Oh did I mention it looks like both Koreans and foreigners are getting more money?
Ladder Requirements Participants are required to play all tournament and ladder games required of them from the country listed on the account during the tournament season Participants are required to win 100 ladder games per month in their home region
Dissapointed no more emphasis was put into ladder play
It is detailed here what is the eligibility for playing in WCS Welfare. Things to note: - there is still an exception for people who "can demonstrate consistent residency in a region starting on or before January 1, 2013" (even though it's hard to imagine someone is staying that long somewhere and does not have a visa that qualifies him anyway) - being a progamer is now full-time slavery, where you can't leave your home region for more than 5 weeks in a year.
On December 18 2015 06:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Dammit, Blizzard. You had the chance to abort this and didn't care.
;/
Did they though? You think any sponsor will agree with them cancelling this last second?
But will tournament organizers agree with them, that's the thing. Like, it's not 2000, people want the competition, even if they want their hometown heroes to strive. And not many Koreans will sign up to this slavery of Blizzard controlling you for the whole year.
Given we don't have too many tournament orgs nowdays (basically IEM/DH and DH already has CS:GO as a primary game). Still suxlol.
At least they didn't give WCS points to Proleague, thank God.
Huh not sure what to think about this. In general i kinda like the format with bigger events, etc
BUT i dislike it being foreigner only, haha. I also don't see how this helps foreigners who aren't already on some team. Newcomers simply cannot travel to these events, no?
Only 2 GSL/SSL tournaments sucks too. Crossover tourny is nice, but on the other hand it also makes GSL/SSL count less. "HEY Byul won that SSL and soO that GSL!!! Well Byun won the crossover " meh
On December 18 2015 06:37 SharpFlex wrote: Poor $o$ he´ll get 2nd in Global Finals everytime now...
I fear that in this system sOs won't qualify. Only top8 players will qualify... 4 of them being champions. I cannot see sOs qualifying. I AM SO DAMN SAD NOW!
Downsizing GSL and SSL is the opposite of what they should be doing if they are region-locking foreign tournaments... Huge disappointment for me. So Parting missed the SSL qualifiers, and now he can only play in 3 more tournaments this year (4 if he makes WCS finals I guess)? Hopefully we'll still have some Kespa Cups and random Chinese tournaments :/.
On December 18 2015 06:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Dammit, Blizzard. You had the chance to abort this and didn't care.
;/
Did they though? You think any sponsor will agree with them cancelling this last second?
But will tournament organizers agree with them, that's the thing. Like, it's not 2000, people want the competition, even if they want their hometown heroes to strive.
Given we don't have too many tournament orgs nowdays (basically IEM/DH and DH already has CS:GO as a primary game). Still suxlol.
At least they didn't give WCS points to Proleague, thank God.
Well, they explicitly mention partnership with ESL and Dreamhack, so take your guess what the organizers think.
On December 18 2015 06:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: At least they didn't give WCS points to Proleague, thank God.
As I said before, it literally doesn't matter what changes they make to WCS points in Korea, because Koreans are only being compared against other Koreans. It matters for individual players, but for the region as a whole, they're going to have the exact same amount of representation regardless of how well anyone performs.
On December 18 2015 06:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Dammit, Blizzard. You had the chance to abort this and didn't care.
;/
Did they though? You think any sponsor will agree with them cancelling this last second?
But will tournament organizers agree with them, that's the thing. Like, it's not 2000, people want the competition, even if they want their hometown heroes to strive.
Given we don't have too many tournament orgs nowdays (basically IEM/DH and DH already has CS:GO as a primary game). Still suxlol.
At least they didn't give WCS points to Proleague, thank God.
Well, they explicitly mention partnership with ESL and Dreamhack, so take your guess what the organizers think.
On the other hand, you know what. People might actually shut up about "region lock" being mandatory after this year. :p
On December 18 2015 06:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: At least they didn't give WCS points to Proleague, thank God.
As I said before, it literally doesn't matter what changes they make to WCS points in Korea, because Koreans are only being compared against other Koreans. It matters for individual players, but for the region as a whole, they're going to have the exact same amount of representation regardless of how well anyone performs.
It matters for koreans who don't play in proleague
Really sad that the inhouse produced WCS in Eu will be gone, i loved these more than the weekend tournaments. Simply because its more convenient to watch a round after you finished your workday
Also it was pretty epic to see foreigners trying to actually come up with sick builds and strategy based on their opponents for a round like SSL or GSL have.
On December 18 2015 06:33 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Dammit, Blizzard. You had the chance to abort this and didn't care.
;/
Did they though? You think any sponsor will agree with them cancelling this last second?
But will tournament organizers agree with them, that's the thing. Like, it's not 2000, people want the competition, even if they want their hometown heroes to strive.
Given we don't have too many tournament orgs nowdays (basically IEM/DH and DH already has CS:GO as a primary game). Still suxlol.
At least they didn't give WCS points to Proleague, thank God.
Well, they explicitly mention partnership with ESL and Dreamhack, so take your guess what the organizers think.
"Blizzard is planning three WCS Circuit Championship events together with up to eight sponsored WCS circuit events hosted and supported by ESL, DreamHack and other partners who apply."
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
SSL vs GSL = two Bo7 (?) series over the course of the entire year, so... maybe two hours of SC2 content?
If the same player doesn't win GSL and SSL in which case he can't possibly play against himself?
Lol. So hype.
It's more. Top 2 of each league play a small tournament aswell as competing in archon mode. Twice a year. They might fill 2 days with each cross competition depending on schedule.
WCS Global Events—7500 $50,000+ prize pool 16+ Players 7,500 points Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
What determines if they earn points in WCS Korea vs WCS Circuit? Obviously it is unlikely, but is it possible that someone could meet the WCS Circuit requirements, play in WCS Circuit tournaments, and still travel to WCS Korea and earn points in both leagues?
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
WCS Global Events—7500 $50,000+ prize pool 16+ Players 7,500 points Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
What determines if they earn points in WCS Korea vs WCS Circuit? Obviously it is unlikely, but is it possible that someone could meet the WCS Circuit requirements, play in WCS Circuit tournaments, and still travel to WCS Korea and earn points in both leagues?
On December 18 2015 06:38 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: At least they didn't give WCS points to Proleague, thank God.
As I said before, it literally doesn't matter what changes they make to WCS points in Korea, because Koreans are only being compared against other Koreans. It matters for individual players, but for the region as a whole, they're going to have the exact same amount of representation regardless of how well anyone performs.
It matters for koreans who don't play in proleague
Lots of things matter to lots of individuals. The absurd state of balance in the game ATM matters to Terran players who are now much less likely to appear in Blizzcon because the qualifiers for all s1 events will be done/significantly underway by the time any balance patches roll around, and there's only one other season of events left after this.
But Blizz puts "increase in prize pool and increase in WCS points" in the same sentence as though an increase in WCS points for Korean events is somehow great for Koreans. It's not. It makes zero difference. Blizzard could cut the amount of WCS points Koreans get in half and that wouldn't even be a bad thing.
But I guess that wouldn't look so good on a press release.
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
It is possible they were still working this out.
So WCS global events are both Korean and Foreigner tournaments throughout the year?
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
I like the single elim bo5's at the circuit championship. The groups of 4 thing has been so overused. Single elim bracket gets into the excitement immediately.
It seems like top players will be traveling a lot. I guess we'll wait and see how many events an individual actually attends.
This seems like the best format they've ever used for the Blizzcon tournament (aka Global Finals now). In BW it was a joke, just invites that you couldn't hope to earn in any direct way. In past SC2 tournaments, we've had 16 great players but there isn't enough time to show all their matches, so you'd go in with an expectation of getting to watch certain players and then you couldn't. So they improved that by doing Ro16 the week before. And now they're keeping that but they're increasing the chances of a non-Korean making it deeper. Of the 8 who qualify, who can actually win some rounds? Impossible to know who will be hot at the moment, but by having 8 chances there should be someone. And if they're all really that much worse than the Koreans, then the Global Finals is still 100% Korean and people who want "the best" will get it.
One problem that remains is that you have people who qualified because they were good in December - June and they have been a lot worse July - October but they still get to play at the biggest tournament of the year in November. What a challenge to try to find a solution for that. But the truth is that most fans don't even notice this so I think we just have to accept it.
Thanks. So korean Koreans will not play it. Only those foreign Koreans. That sucks for me. Watching grup stage of Worlds finals will be pointless ... I guess they want to make starcraft more popular outside Korea. But c'mon... there is nothing more interesting in SC2 than whatching top Korean beasts fighting. For me watching foreigners is not funny. Maybe only top foreigners at their best, when they fight even with good Korean players. But all the rest dont make the game entertaining. Just my opinion. What about you guys ?
On December 18 2015 06:42 Yhamm wrote: well, it's not that bad... most disappointing thing is probably only 2 seasons of both SSL & GSL
That's how I feel as well. Hopefully it'll be staggered nicely. Hopefully with a Ho6 Cup or Kespa Cup and Proleague in between so theres no content droughts.
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
Oh wow. Okay, that's actually pretty sweet.
I mean, people make fair points that the RO8 will be Korean only, and I know that SHOULD be important to me. But frankly, I think overall they've done a pretty good job of this.
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
No, this is not true according to the text posted by Blizzard
It's really something else, people who didn't make SSL today might already be fucked for the rest of the year. I guess every Korean who doesn't win SSL/GSL has to try attending every WCS Global events for them points.
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
No, this is not true according to the text posted by Blizzard
They posted THIS:
"WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog."
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
No, this is not true according to the text posted by Blizzard
They posted THIS:
"WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog."
Even if that's right. which doesn't sound like that from the requirements blog, there is a thing.
These events award prize pool and points for the WCS Circuit.
So, uh, it doesn't boost your chances of getting through the Korean circuit. Tfw it's about 5000 events. God dammit.
It is detailed here what is the eligibility for playing in WCS Welfare. Things to note: - there is still an exception for people who "can demonstrate consistent residency in a region starting on or before January 1, 2013" (even though it's hard to imagine someone is staying that long somewhere and does not have a visa that qualifies him anyway) - being a progamer is now full-time slavery, where you can't leave your home region for more than 5 weeks in a year.
It would be good to start using the name everywhere it appears - as it is a perfect description.
WCS WELFARE
So it is true, they took away from us all the good events as IEM and DH. I just hope, some organizers will refuse it and organize a good tournament with good players from both worlds. I am also sorry that only 8 world's best players will be playing at BlizzCon. Think about the player number 9. Number 10. No more good dreamhack, no more good IEM, one season in GSL and SSL less ... fucking bad news :-(
On December 18 2015 06:48 Elentos wrote: It's really something else, people who didn't make SSL today might already be fucked for the rest of the year. I guess every Korean who doesn't win SSL/GSL has to try attending every WCS Global events for them points.
Ehm, they have to have some residency visa proof to attend WCS events, haven't they? SO they are FUBAR
On December 18 2015 06:23 Heyoka wrote: WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Global Events—7500
$50,000+ prize pool
16+ Players
7,500 points
Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit
Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
I honestly really like the changes. The only really bad thing is that there will only be 2 seasons of GSL and SSL. If their would be 3 seasons it would probably almost be perfect. Its definitly not as bad as the rumours sounded!
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
No, this is not true according to the text posted by Blizzard
They posted THIS:
"WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog."
Ah, thank you! :D The information overflow kinda killed my brain today ^^
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
No, this is not true according to the text posted by Blizzard
It actually is:
WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Global Events—7500 $50,000+ prize pool 16+ Players 7,500 points Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
I actually quite like the sound of this. More money with more regional play, and still the same tournaments we are used to. If you like seeing 15-16 Koreans at Blizzcon then I guess this is not great news to you.
On December 18 2015 06:52 sharkie wrote: What's the use of attending a WCS Global event if you earn almost no points in the Circuit/Korea? Only money
A WCS Global event (WCS 7500) gives 1500 points to the winner. Considering that the amount of Korean leagues is limited and not everyone can qualify, those points can be everything.
On December 18 2015 06:52 sharkie wrote: What's the use of attending a WCS Global event if you earn almost no points in the Circuit/Korea? Only money
yea that's dumb too, those points don't help koreans much at all
Not really dumb, I like that players like herO (consistency in Korea) get rewarded more. sOs and Parting only got to Blizzcon thanks to weird tournaments
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
No, this is not true according to the text posted by Blizzard
They posted THIS:
"WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog."
Even if that's right. which doesn't sound like that from the requirements blog, there is a thing.
It is detailed here what is the eligibility for playing in WCS Welfare. Things to note: - there is still an exception for people who "can demonstrate consistent residency in a region starting on or before January 1, 2013" (even though it's hard to imagine someone is staying that long somewhere and does not have a visa that qualifies him anyway) - being a progamer is now full-time slavery, where you can't leave your home region for more than 5 weeks in a year.
It would be good to start using the name everywhere it appears - as it is a perfect description.
WCS WELFARE
So it is true, they took away from us all the good events as IEM and DH. I just hope, some organizers will refuse it and organize a good tournament with good players from both worlds. I am also sorry that only 8 world's best players will be playing at BlizzCon. Think about the player number 9. Number 10. No more good dreamhack, no more good IEM, one season in GSL and SSL less ... fucking bad news :-(
Less of sOs except for PL. And probably no sOs in Anaheim Damn it
On December 18 2015 06:54 Diabolique wrote: Wait. What? So the WCS Global Events will still exist? IEM and DH will be a WCS Global Event? HomeStory Cup is a WCS Global Event?
This HSC has nothing to do with WCS. The next one might even be a WCS Global event if they get the 25k boost. We won't know until then.
On December 18 2015 06:54 Diabolique wrote: Wait. What? So the WCS Global Events will still exist? IEM and DH will be a WCS Global Event? HomeStory Cup is a WCS Global Event?
Likely, yes. Give TO's time to figure out their events for the year, before you start losing your head over it. We'll likely get more information regarding which tournaments will be part of the WCS Circuit and which ones will be Global Events early next year.
I think how good WCS will be is dependent on how good the global events are. I'm going to be optimistic for the time being though, it sounds like it can be good.
On December 18 2015 06:34 Ansibled wrote: Only 2 seasons of GSL/SSL
SSL vs GSL is cool though.
I'll bet my ass that KeSPA Cup will return and there will be more Korean events.
To be fair, if you look at it, this isn't that different from the 2015 system. DHs and IEMs are still the same that opens to anyone and will be dominated by Koreans.
Did I misinterpret that? I thought they were replacing DHs and IEMs with Circuit events which are still DHs and IEMs except now region locked, which is why Take said he wouldn't add HSC to that since it'd mean no Koreans at his tournament.. If I misread that then I'm actually pretty stoked about that and don't really have any problems with this.
Also in any case I'm excited about the competitive archon mode stuff.
No, read further below in the OP, WCS Global Events which are DHs and IEMs remain the same. The ones that are locked to foreigners are called WCS Circuit Events, different things.
No, this is not true according to the text posted by Blizzard
They posted THIS:
"WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog."
Even if that's right. which doesn't sound like that from the requirements blog, there is a thing.
These events award prize pool and points for the WCS Circuit.
So, uh, it doesn't boost your chances of getting through the Korean circuit.
And the only way for there to be as many weekend tournaments with both foreigners and Koreans is if, for every single Circuit-exclusive event, a completely new weekend premier is added on top of what 2015 had. Which I think is completely unrealistic, isn't it?
So we have 2015's tournament total, minus scene shrinkage, minus Circuit-exclusive events = events Koreans could possibly attend.
On December 18 2015 06:46 Dodgin wrote: I guess we can't complain too much about 2 seasons of GSL/SSL, it's still 4 tournaments + proleague/kespa cup.
Why can't we complain? 4 tournaments is a lot less than 6, SSL even got rid of group stage which means each season has only 15 series. Especially when Koreans are locked out of foreign tournaments. I was expecting the format to be better than the rumours due to some people's Twitter comments, but it's a lot worse and I totally expect lots of retirements in Korea. Parting and Rain will be the most painful retirements for me .
On December 18 2015 06:52 sharkie wrote: What's the use of attending a WCS Global event if you earn almost no points in the Circuit/Korea? Only money
yea that's dumb too, those points don't help koreans much at all
Hmm if you are a player in GSL playing in the semis and you win the semis but lose the finals, you can watch the guy you just beat go make the final in a WCS Global event and pass you in points. I'm sure the "victims" who see the people they beat in GSL/SSL passing them in the points won't think it's so insignificant. Every bit will add up. The points are enough to add an additional dimension of drama to the events.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
i think it was pretty simple
If you think it's simple then you probably don't understand it :p.
It's not that difficult. I mean most people skip the part about WCS Global events aka events with Koreans and foreigners/Koreigners, and that's a really important one.
As it stands right now, the most broken strategies that should eventually get nerfed (such as Oracle/Adept into double expand against Terran) will dictate who we see at the global finals at the end of this year and not who the actual most skilled players are because the game is in such a badly refined state at the moment.
This system is going to do great damage in the short term to the Korean scene, and I'm never watching a foreigner tournament like DH or IEM again. The level of competition is remarkably lower and makes the matches themselves uninteresting. I watch Starcraft for the gameplay and excitement, not because I want to hear someone talk in English after they win a game.
The biggest tragedy is that we're only going to see the best Korean Starcraft players play in individual leagues twice a year now.
On December 18 2015 06:52 sharkie wrote: What's the use of attending a WCS Global event if you earn almost no points in the Circuit/Korea? Only money
yea that's dumb too, those points don't help koreans much at all
Hmm if you are a player in GSL playing in the semis and you win the semis but lose the finals, you can watch the guy you just beat go make the final in a WCS Global event and pass you in points. I'm sure the "victims" who see the people they beat in GSL/SSL passing them in the points won't think it's so insignificant. Every bit will add up. The points are enough to add an additional dimension of drama to the events.
I agree, the fact that there are opportunities to make up for points you didn't get in Starleagues is really important. Especially for all those guys who don't get into the first GSL/SSL season on the back of map, balance and meta issues.
On December 18 2015 06:54 Diabolique wrote: Wait. What? So the WCS Global Events will still exist? IEM and DH will be a WCS Global Event? HomeStory Cup is a WCS Global Event?
Likely, yes. Give TO's time to figure out their events for the year, before you start losing your head over it. We'll likely get more information regarding which tournaments will be part of the WCS Circuit and which ones will be Global Events early next year.
OK, thanks. I have no problem with WCS WELFARE system existing. I am really sad for the world's best players number 9. 10. 11. 12 ... I think, it would be enough to bring 4 foreigners to BlizzCon and mix then into the 4 groups ... but I will survive it. I was just unhappy if they destroy DreamHacks and IEMs with the mix of good and international players, as exactly that was nice to see Snute beating the champions of GSL and SSL ... Just please, do not destroy IEM!
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
Their article/blog is horribly written, once you read through it's actually pretty clear:
WCS Circuit = big Championships (basically the same as WCS 2015 seasons, just moved to a weekend) + community/org run Circuit Events (at least 8, can be upgraded, works like a WCS Global event just region locked), region locked to foreigners/Koreigners
WCS Korea = SSL + GSL, play in Korea, opens to everyone.
WCS Global Events = DHs + IEMs+ HSCs, opens to everyone, players get points on their own region's WCS ladder.
more TL;DR:
WCS 2015 system plus region locked international events, might be less Korean events but not sure.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
i think it was pretty simple
Korean points vs global points, 4 korean champions and 4 koreans from points, 3 WCS Circuit champions, 5 players from the global points pool, like damn stick to something.
I would've just done (if I was forced to give foreigner charity seeds) top 8 players living in korea and top 8 players living outside of korea all by points.
I'm still reading, but it looks like a player, say PartinG, could get residency in an Asian country and that gets him into the WCS Circuit club, and he could still play in GSL/SSL, earning points in both WCS Korea and WCS Circuit.
Blizz might make that impossible with the tournament schedule or something. Not sure.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
Their article/blog is horribly written, once you read through it's actually pretty clear:
WCS Circuit = big Championships (basically the same as WCS 2015 seasons, just moved to a weekend) + community/org run Circuit Events (at least 8, can be upgraded, works like a WCS Global event just region locked), region locked to foreigners/Koreigners
WCS Korea = SSL + GSL, play in Korea, opens to everyone.
WCS Global Events = DHs + IEMs+ HSCs, opens to everyone.
more TL;DR:
WCS 2015 system plus region locked international events, might be less Korean events but not sure.
The ambiguitiy is around the WCS Global Events. You say it's DH + IEMs but I think they seem to imply those 2 will be WCS Circuit Events (though they could be a combination I suppose?).
On December 18 2015 06:52 sharkie wrote: What's the use of attending a WCS Global event if you earn almost no points in the Circuit/Korea? Only money
yea that's dumb too, those points don't help koreans much at all
Hmm if you are a player in GSL playing in the semis and you win the semis but lose the finals, you can watch the guy you just beat go make the final in a WCS Global event and pass you in points. I'm sure the "victims" who see the people they beat in GSL/SSL passing them in the points won't think it's so insignificant. Every bit will add up. The points are enough to add an additional dimension of drama to the events.
I thought the points only counted for the Global pool instead of the korean pool, but if they add on to the points they earned from GSL/SSL then that's fine
On December 18 2015 07:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: I missed the global events the first time i read it. Now i think it is ok. Still not the best solution for various reasons, but at least not total bs.
Could be much worse. One thing about the Korean circuit that bothers me is that winning GSL/SSL awards 4000 points that don't mean anything because you get a direct seed to the finals anway. And all the numbers are so inflated. Just by qualifying to SSL you get 600 points. Everyone who didn't get through the qualifiers today is already at a 600 point deficit.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
Their article/blog is horribly written, once you read through it's actually pretty clear:
WCS Circuit = big Championships (basically the same as WCS 2015 seasons, just moved to a weekend) + community/org run Circuit Events (at least 8, can be upgraded, works like a WCS Global event just region locked), region locked to foreigners/Koreigners
WCS Korea = SSL + GSL, play in Korea, opens to everyone.
WCS Global Events = DHs + IEMs+ HSCs, opens to everyone, players get points on their own region's WCS ladder.
more TL;DR:
WCS 2015 system plus region locked international events, might be less Korean events but not sure.
DH and IEMs will most likely become WCS Circuit events...
Interesting to see the Korean reaction to this one, from fan and player perspective.
Considering the absurd competition already and the new game you wonder how many players may consider retirement or something of a similar variety. Just as a societal observation; it's already a very difficult life for many of the Korean progamers so adding a structure which de-incentivizes them surely isn't great. At least to a certain extent the Korean contingency of the starcraft world represents a significant portion of our community, and perhaps putting their participation in relative jeopardy isn't a great thing for the game in general. I'm also a bit skeptical about how the notion of including 8 spots for foreign players. The obvious idea is provide incentive for local players to compete and increase the competitive aspect of the game from an organic level. This is tough for a game which is already perceived with a pretense of intimidation for casual players. The reduction of SSL/GSL seasons is something bad enough as it is, so implementing this new structure change certainly won't help.
The real question is: Will Korean interesting in sc2 maintain as it has, and will foreigners actually compete?
The text seemed to imply that the events would be held at IEM/DH, but its possible to have two tournaments(mlg hosting WCS in 2012 at one of their events comes to mind)
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
Their article/blog is horribly written, once you read through it's actually pretty clear:
WCS Circuit = big Championships (basically the same as WCS 2015 seasons, just moved to a weekend) + community/org run Circuit Events (at least 8, can be upgraded, works like a WCS Global event just region locked), region locked to foreigners/Koreigners
WCS Korea = SSL + GSL, play in Korea, opens to everyone.
WCS Global Events = DHs + IEMs+ HSCs, opens to everyone.
more TL;DR:
WCS 2015 system plus region locked international events, might be less Korean events but not sure.
The ambiguitiy is around the WCS Global Events. You say it's DH + IEMs but I think they seem to imply those 2 will be WCS Circuit Events (though they could be a combination I suppose?).
On December 18 2015 06:23 Heyoka wrote: WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Global Events—7500
$50,000+ prize pool
16+ Players
7,500 points
Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit
Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
The most important part. Doesn't even matter if the tournament is called IEM/Dreamhack at that point.
On December 18 2015 07:02 Lunareste wrote: As it stands right now, the most broken strategies that should eventually get nerfed (such as Oracle/Adept into double expand against Terran) will dictate who we see at the global finals at the end of this year and not who the actual most skilled players are because the game is in such a badly refined state at the moment.
Well, on the Korean side I doubt it due to being able to prepare for a match. Blue Flame hellions WRECKED that one MLG, but people figured out how to beat them in time for them to not affect that season's GSL. (Admittedly, the queen range buff was important for that too). Even 1/1/1 was mostly a weekend tournament thing. (Mostly. Not entirely.) You do make a good point though that we could have foreigners with a couple broken strategies who end up in global finals by taking down one tournament with them.
On December 18 2015 07:02 Lunareste wrote: This system is going to do great damage in the short term to the Korean scene, and I'm never watching a foreigner tournament like DH or IEM again. The level of competition is remarkably lower and makes the matches themselves uninteresting. I watch Starcraft for the gameplay and excitement, not because I want to hear someone talk in English after they win a game.
The biggest tragedy is that we're only going to see the best Korean Starcraft players play in individual leagues twice a year now.
Good news on that front! They will still have DH and IEM and they'll be "global events" it sounds like.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
Their article/blog is horribly written, once you read through it's actually pretty clear:
WCS Circuit = big Championships (basically the same as WCS 2015 seasons, just moved to a weekend) + community/org run Circuit Events (at least 8, can be upgraded, works like a WCS Global event just region locked), region locked to foreigners/Koreigners
WCS Korea = SSL + GSL, play in Korea, opens to everyone.
WCS Global Events = DHs + IEMs+ HSCs, opens to everyone.
more TL;DR:
WCS 2015 system plus region locked international events, might be less Korean events but not sure.
The ambiguitiy is around the WCS Global Events. You say it's DH + IEMs but I think they seem to imply those 2 will be WCS Circuit Events (though they could be a combination I suppose?).
I don't believe there is a reason DHs and IEMs are Circuit Events instead of Global Events, and I didn't see any implication that DHs and IEMs are Circuit Events.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
Their article/blog is horribly written, once you read through it's actually pretty clear:
WCS Circuit = big Championships (basically the same as WCS 2015 seasons, just moved to a weekend) + community/org run Circuit Events (at least 8, can be upgraded, works like a WCS Global event just region locked), region locked to foreigners/Koreigners
WCS Korea = SSL + GSL, play in Korea, opens to everyone.
WCS Global Events = DHs + IEMs+ HSCs, opens to everyone, players get points on their own region's WCS ladder.
more TL;DR:
WCS 2015 system plus region locked international events, might be less Korean events but not sure.
The feeling I got was that the championships will be by ESL/DH/etc There's no indication of what exactly a global event is right now.
On December 18 2015 07:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: I missed the global events the first time i read it. Now i think it is ok. Still not the best solution for various reasons, but at least not total bs.
Could be much worse. One thing about the Korean circuit that bothers me is that winning GSL/SSL awards 4000 points that don't mean anything because you get a direct seed to the finals anway. And all the numbers are so inflated. Just by qualifying to SSL you get 600 points. Everyone who didn't get through the qualifiers today is already at a 600 point deficit.
I guess they could use the points for some sort of seeding?
On December 18 2015 06:44 Musicus wrote: What are many here talking about?
There can still be WCS Global events with foreigners and Koreas. They will earn the points that fit their region.
So IEM can just request the 25k WCS boost, then it can be a 50k+ WCS Global event with Koreans right?
They can, that doesnt mean they will.
What do you mean? That IEM might chose to be a foreigner only event instead of requesting extra money and bring in koreans for foreigner vs korean hype?
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
i think it was pretty simple
What happens if the runnerup of SSL s1 is the runnerup of GSL s1? What does the cross finals look like then? Then they have to pull in one of the guys from the semifinals to fill in one of the spots, right? But semifinals from which tournament? GSL or SSL? And which semifinals? There's usually two per tournament.
On December 18 2015 07:07 Dodgin wrote: The text seemed to imply that the events would be held at IEM/DH, but its possible to have two tournaments(mlg hosting WCS in 2012 at one of their events comes to mind)
Not that I think thats likely to happen.
ah yes, the least hyped tournament right before the real finals lol
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
Their article/blog is horribly written, once you read through it's actually pretty clear:
WCS Circuit = big Championships (basically the same as WCS 2015 seasons, just moved to a weekend) + community/org run Circuit Events (at least 8, can be upgraded, works like a WCS Global event just region locked), region locked to foreigners/Koreigners
WCS Korea = SSL + GSL, play in Korea, opens to everyone.
WCS Global Events = DHs + IEMs+ HSCs, opens to everyone.
more TL;DR:
WCS 2015 system plus region locked international events, might be less Korean events but not sure.
The ambiguitiy is around the WCS Global Events. You say it's DH + IEMs but I think they seem to imply those 2 will be WCS Circuit Events (though they could be a combination I suppose?).
On December 18 2015 06:23 Heyoka wrote: WCS GLOBAL EVENTS
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Global Events—7500
$50,000+ prize pool
16+ Players
7,500 points
Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit
Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
The most important part. Doesn't even matter if the tournament is called IEM/Dreamhack at that point.
The option is there, but it depends how many organizations actually decide to host WCS Global Events rather than WCS Circuit Events.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
i think it was pretty simple
What happens if the runnerup of SSL s1 is the runnerup of GSL s1? What does the cross finals look like then? Then they have to pull in one of the guys from the semifinals to fill in one of the spots, right? But semifinals from which tournament? GSL or SSL? And which semifinals? There's usually two per tournament.
They probably play out who gets it. Would make sense. Wasn't mentioned in the text though because they didn't think about it.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
i think it was pretty simple
What happens if the runnerup of SSL s1 is the runnerup of GSL s1? What does the cross finals look like then? Then they have to pull in one of the guys from the semifinals to fill in one of the spots, right? But semifinals from which tournament? GSL or SSL? And which semifinals? There's usually two per tournament.
On December 18 2015 07:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: I missed the global events the first time i read it. Now i think it is ok. Still not the best solution for various reasons, but at least not total bs.
Could be much worse. One thing about the Korean circuit that bothers me is that winning GSL/SSL awards 4000 points that don't mean anything because you get a direct seed to the finals anway. And all the numbers are so inflated. Just by qualifying to SSL you get 600 points. Everyone who didn't get through the qualifiers today is already at a 600 point deficit.
I guess they could use the points for some sort of seeding?
I'm glad they get points for 1st place even though they're seeded, this way it doesn't break WCS Wars lol, if they got no points then you wouldn't want your player to win
On December 18 2015 07:09 sharkie wrote: I actually believe WCS Global events will be very rare.
Something like IEM WC or DH Winter will probably be a Global event, not much more than that
Any particular reason you believe that? (There very well may be. This post of their's is quite confusing.)
their wording, calling it "the only time foreigners and Koreans will meet each other before the global finals" implies that these events will be something special and unique
Ro32 Single-elimination is pretty much the worst format you can use. I don't care if its Bo5: if you get an unlucky draw you're screwed and you flew all the way out to wherever to play 3-5 games and get nothing. Its barely a step above Dreamhack "Bo3 until the finals" and at least that had a group stage. At least they aren't region-locking weekend events.
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
i think it was pretty simple
Then please explain it. Is much different than the rumor week ago? What exactly the good side of it?
I just read it once and I'm sure someone will make some infographic or something, but simply it looks like this:
For non-Koreans It is called the WCS Circuit for non-koreans
There are 3 WCS Circuit Championships a year
There are 6 regions that make up the WCS Circuit and each region has a qualifier ($10k prize pool) to qualify for each Championship
People also qualify based on their Points
These Championships and their qualifiers are the equivalent to premier/challenger etc things that we've seen in the past, but they're gonna be live events with crowds. They're more like normal non-korean events, not drawn out leagues
In addition to these standard events for the Circuit, any major third party (IEM, DH, etc) SC2 tournament that pops up can ask to be put on the Circuit, which means it has to follow the region-locking and qualifier rules and live audience and commentators player booths etc that a Circuit event requires.
Third party SC2 tournaments can also ask to be Global events, which means they're for non-koreans and Koreans as well. Those are also for points and have their set of format requirements (must have qualifiers, must allocate spots for certain regions, etc) and event requirements (live play, booths, live commentators, crowd, etc)
Third party SC2 tournaments can also do whatever they want and they just won't count for WCS points
In the end, the 3 players who win circuit championships will essentially go to blizzcon (will actually go to the week-before-blizzcon Ro16 thing) and 5 other players who have the most points will fill out the rest of the 8 non-korean slots
----
for Koreans Pretty simple, they have 2 seasons of GSL and SSL each. The 4 champions go to the week-before-blizzcon thing. 4 highest points fill out the rest of their remaining slots.
They can of course attend WCS Global events as previously mentioned to earn additional points
They can also become a resident with a proper visa and essentially become a non-Korean and do the WCS Circuit instead (non-Koreans also have the option of doing GSL/SSL themselves if they'd rather not do WCS Circuit, btw)
Oh and the winners of GSL team up against the winners of SSL to do some crazy archon mode match for $25k
edit: Oh and Blizzard is throwing a ton of financial support in for third party tournaments that do decide to be a WCS event (paying for player travel expenses, adding money to prize pool)
- only 2 GSL/SSL seasons? so little - killing the old WCS league makes me very very sad
- I like stricter region locking, makes for better ladders hopefully. - extra money is good I guess. - It seems circuit championships have regional qualifiers, so each will have players from each region attending? That's pretty cool. - Boosting smaller events might have a great effect.
Questions: Are the spring/summer/winter circuit championships Dreamhacks? (as they use their naming scheme)
What other events are there scheduled? Do we really go from a scheduled 3 season competition to just 3 planned weekend tournaments? :/
On December 18 2015 07:07 BisuDagger wrote: Gotta say I'm on board with this. Also, every foreigner can try and qualify for the GSL and SSL because there is no region lock. :D
No they cant, 5 weeks of travel per year, that isnt long enough for a season.
So we added SSL because there were not enough opportunities in Korea and now we make both GSL and SSL shorter and lock part of the weekend events... I guess we will find out how it works out but I have a bad feeling about this.
Also, I really really hope that IEM stays international. I'm gonna be seriously disappointed if it gets locked. Carmac is very mysterious about it. + Show Spoiler +
Honestly I think I'm fine with the whole WCS circuit system. The only thing that really bums me out is only 2 seasons of GSL and 2 of SSL. However, they did mention "global events" that would allow Koreans so maybe those will kind of make up for that?
On December 18 2015 07:07 BisuDagger wrote: Gotta say I'm on board with this. Also, every foreigner can try and qualify for the GSL and SSL because there is no region lock. :D
No they cant, 5 weeks of travel per year, that isnt long enough for a season.
In theory this restriction should only apply to non-citizens with residency(polt, hydra, jaedong)
On December 18 2015 07:07 BisuDagger wrote: Gotta say I'm on board with this. Also, every foreigner can try and qualify for the GSL and SSL because there is no region lock. :D
No they cant, 5 weeks of travel per year, that isnt long enough for a season.
"Participants may only travel for non-competitive reasons 5 weeks per WCS competitive year outside of their WCS region"
On December 18 2015 07:09 sharkie wrote: I actually believe WCS Global events will be very rare.
Something like IEM WC or DH Winter will probably be a Global event, not much more than that
Any particular reason you believe that? (There very well may be. This post of their's is quite confusing.)
their wording, calling it "the only time foreigners and Koreans will meet each other before the global finals" implies that these events will be something special and unique
That's fair. I interpreted it as hammering in their main point: that region locked WCS Circuit MEANS region locked WCS Circuit (as opposed to the soft-locked WCS they've had the last two years).
But I can see it your way too. I guess we'll wait and see.
IF DHs and IEMs are the Global WCS Events, granting WCS points, they could still be awesome great tournaments. Then, the WCS Circuit events could be something new.
So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players. It will be a tournament with 4 best world's players, 4 winners of Korean tournaments (who do not need to be necessarily the best players, maybe one or two of them), 2 good foreigners and 6 losers.
I think the biggest issue for a lot of this system is more financial than it is systematic in many ways.
You want to provide financial incentive for players to compete. The issue with the Korean leagues has simply been a lack of ability to make meaningful salaries and therefore justify the time investment. The same goes for foreigners; it's easy to blame foreign regions for a lack of talent but that lack of skill in part derives from the ability to justify spending a large portion of your short life to playing a video game competitively.
Korea has money for the top, but only the top which makes it a double edged sword. The rest of the world just crumbles for the most part
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: IF DHs and IEMs are the Global WCS Events, granting WCS points, they could still be awesome great tournaments. Then, the WCS Circuit events could be something new.
So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players. It will be a tournament with 4 best world's players, 4 winners of Korean tournaments (who do not need to be necessarily the best players, maybe one or two of them), 2 good foreigners and 6 losers.
actually the 4 winners are the 4 best world's players and the other 4 Koreans are the ones who were able to attend the most global events... (Parting, MC style)
On December 18 2015 07:07 BisuDagger wrote: Gotta say I'm on board with this. Also, every foreigner can try and qualify for the GSL and SSL because there is no region lock. :D
No they cant, 5 weeks of travel per year, that isnt long enough for a season.
5 weeks of non-competitive travel aka vacation. It seems traveling to GSL doesn't count to this?
I am pretty sure one of the biggest reasons JD chose to compete outside of Korea was the freedom he got with it. WCS Circuit system doesn't really give you much freedom...
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: IF DHs and IEMs are the Global WCS Events, granting WCS points, they could still be awesome great tournaments. Then, the WCS Circuit events could be something new.
So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players. It will be a tournament with 4 best world's players, 4 winners of Korean tournaments (who do not need to be necessarily the best players, maybe one or two of them), 2 good foreigners and 6 losers.
actually the 4 winners are the 4 best world's players and the other 4 Koreans are the ones who were able to attend the most global events... (Parting, MC style)
No, they are not necessarily. You can win one season of the Korean league and not be the best performing player consistently. I am just sorry for someone great, who ended up second all the time. Because in the new system, he will probably not participate in BlizzCon.
OK, but the most important point now is to hear the news from IEM that they do not region lock ... then, they could become even a better tournament than BlizzCon.
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: IF DHs and IEMs are the Global WCS Events, granting WCS points, they could still be awesome great tournaments. Then, the WCS Circuit events could be something new.
So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players. It will be a tournament with 4 best world's players, 4 winners of Korean tournaments (who do not need to be necessarily the best players, maybe one or two of them), 2 good foreigners and 6 losers.
actually the 4 winners are the 4 best world's players and the other 4 Koreans are the ones who were able to attend the most global events... (Parting, MC style)
No, they are not necessarily. You can win one season of the Korean league and not be the best performing player consistently. I am just sorry for someone great, who ended up second all the time. Because in the new system, he will probably not participate in BlizzCon.
If he gets second all the time he'll probably make it to Blizzcon considering how many points SSL and GSL award.
On December 18 2015 07:22 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: So this now guarantees Blizzcon spots to foreigners? Just dumb
No it doesn't as Blizzcon will only be RO8 this year.
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: IF DHs and IEMs are the Global WCS Events, granting WCS points, they could still be awesome great tournaments. Then, the WCS Circuit events could be something new.
So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players. It will be a tournament with 4 best world's players, 4 winners of Korean tournaments (who do not need to be necessarily the best players, maybe one or two of them), 2 good foreigners and 6 losers.
actually the 4 winners are the 4 best world's players and the other 4 Koreans are the ones who were able to attend the most global events... (Parting, MC style)
No, they are not necessarily. You can win one season of the Korean league and not be the best performing player consistently. I am just sorry for someone great, who ended up second all the time. Because in the new system, he will probably not participate in BlizzCon.
Theoretically someone taking second in every SSL/GSL finishes the year with over 10k WCS points and should be in the top 4 for WCS Korea excluding the champions.
It's way more trouble for players who never go all the way in Starleagues, fail in the semis, or players who miss 1 season because the balance sucked or something.
On December 18 2015 07:17 The_Red_Viper wrote: One thing is sure, a lot of koreans will decide to retire.
Can somebody tell me if JD will be able to play in WCS easy mode?
He got a visa to play in WCS Premier this year so he should be eligible.
Hm yeah i thought so. How many koreans will play this then? violet, polt, JD, hydra Anybody else?
In theory Stardust would have been able to but I'm not sure he still has a career. TRUE and DRG wanted to switch to WCS (which implies getting visa) but they started playing WCS Korea so I guess that's off.
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players.
Blizzcon getting together the objectively 16 best players in the world at the time was mostly a dream anyway.
That is obviously an impossible dream in any theoretical world. At the very least including proleague as a way to win WCS points would lead to a more rational result in the context of picking "the best" players
On December 18 2015 07:21 kell234 wrote: bad news((( DH, IEM without korean(((
Wrong. There will be WCS Global events with 50k+ as prizepool and 7500 points. Players from WCS Korea and the WCS Circuit can both compete in them and they will earn points that fit their region.
IEM and DH are the most likely events to be those WCS Global events.
hopefully Blizzard took this long to announce this new system because they were also writing a "WCS for dummies" book so dumb people like me can understand it.
On December 18 2015 07:07 BisuDagger wrote: Gotta say I'm on board with this. Also, every foreigner can try and qualify for the GSL and SSL because there is no region lock. :D
No they cant, 5 weeks of travel per year, that isnt long enough for a season.
"Participants may only travel for non-competitive reasons 5 weeks per WCS competitive year outside of their WCS region"
GSL/SSL are competitive I dare say .
I forgot foreigners compete in that thing and arent on vacation.
On December 18 2015 07:26 Sapphire.lux wrote: We better get a lot of global events or this sucks! Only 2 seasons of both SSL & GSL AND they are locked away from IEM/DH?
Anyway, it will be interesting to see the interest in this foreigner only events.
IEM/DH can be global events why would they be locked
edit: Oh they are rumoured to be the circuit events hmmm
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players.
Blizzcon getting together the objectively 16 best players in the world at the time was mostly a dream anyway.
That is obviously an impossible dream in any theoretical world. At the very least including proleague as a way to win WCS points would lead to a more rational result in the context of picking "the best" players
This year's Blizzcon got deceptively close to the ideal, at least at the top, I will admit.
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: IF DHs and IEMs are the Global WCS Events, granting WCS points, they could still be awesome great tournaments. Then, the WCS Circuit events could be something new.
So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players. It will be a tournament with 4 best world's players, 4 winners of Korean tournaments (who do not need to be necessarily the best players, maybe one or two of them), 2 good foreigners and 6 losers.
actually the 4 winners are the 4 best world's players and the other 4 Koreans are the ones who were able to attend the most global events... (Parting, MC style)
No, they are not necessarily. You can win one season of the Korean league and not be the best performing player consistently. I am just sorry for someone great, who ended up second all the time. Because in the new system, he will probably not participate in BlizzCon.
Theoretically someone taking second in every SSL/GSL finishes the year with over 10k WCS points and should be in the top 4 for WCS Korea excluding the champions.
It's way more trouble for players who never go all the way in Starleagues, fail in the semis, or players who miss 1 season because the balance sucked or something.
Yes, this is what I meant. OK, someone making the second place twice might not make it. But it is true that the winner of any season will anyway make so many points that he will probably be in the Best WCS8, so probablythere will still be the TOP8.
I think that reason for 2 GSL and SSL events is to have the super hype matches between the champions and not having the problem of how will broadcast the matches. Will be 1 broadcasted by afreeca and 2nd one by SPOTV, if they had 3 season it would be problematic.
In my opinion Finals like this will be really good for korean viewers instead of having dumb studio finals.
On December 18 2015 07:16 Diabolique wrote: So the only negative point will be that BlizzCon will not be anymore the tournament with the best players.
Blizzcon getting together the objectively 16 best players in the world at the time was mostly a dream anyway.
That is obviously an impossible dream in any theoretical world. At the very least including proleague as a way to win WCS points would lead to a more rational result in the context of picking "the best" players
This year's Blizzcon got deceptively close to the ideal, at least at the top, I will admit.
This year wasn't bad, certainly.
In many ways the concept of practically picking the "best" players from a year of players is so abstract that it is almost rendered meaningless. You just have to accept some misgivings and do your best, which is close to what happened last year
On December 18 2015 07:29 MorDka wrote: I think that reason for 2 GSL and SSL events is to have the super hype matches between the champions and not having the problem of how will broadcast the matches. Will be 1 broadcasted by afreeca and 2nd one by SPOTV, if they had 3 season it would be problematic.
In my opinion Finals like this will be really good for korean viewers instead of having dumb studio finals.
They could have the 3rd one broadcasted by the WCS team to make it fair
On December 18 2015 07:25 ivancype wrote: hopefully Blizzard took this long to announce this new system because they were also writing a "WCS for dummies" book so dumb people like me can understand it.
The intriguing thing will be to see how influental a single season of GSL/SSL truly is. Currently, players like Trust or RagnaroK with no notable achievements have a 600 point lead on championship caliber players who didn't qualify. Can they keep this up and earn more? Will someone miss Blizzcon by the exact 600 points they would have gotten by winning their last qualifying game?
On December 18 2015 07:33 Elentos wrote: The intriguing thing will be to see how influental a single season of GSL/SSL truly is. Currently, players like Trust or RagnaroK with no notable achievements have a 600 point lead on championship caliber players who didn't qualify. Can they keep this up and earn more? Will someone miss Blizzcon by the exact 600 points they would have gotten by winning their last qualifying game?
It's actually kinda exciting.
Just try again in the last season of GSL/SSL, Korean Terrans xoxo
On December 18 2015 07:33 Elentos wrote: The intriguing thing will be to see how influental a single season of GSL/SSL truly is. Currently, players like Trust or RagnaroK with no notable achievements have a 600 point lead on championship caliber players who didn't qualify. Can they keep this up and earn more? Will someone miss Blizzcon by the exact 600 points they would have gotten by winning their last qualifying game?
This is a great point because it highlights one of the things I mentioned earlier: the deincentive for Korean players and even the increased randomness at the highest levels of the year-end events. By removing 2 entire seasons of points you decrease a lot of consistency at the top level of the point structure by providing less opportunity for the players to recieve points. I think they should at least consider some way of providing points in proleague. Honestly the more ideal way would be to give points based on some type of elo-point calculator (lol) which awarded points on quality of competition as well as actualy tournament result
On December 18 2015 07:33 Elentos wrote: The intriguing thing will be to see how influental a single season of GSL/SSL truly is. Currently, players like Trust or RagnaroK with no notable achievements have a 600 point lead on championship caliber players who didn't qualify. Can they keep this up and earn more? Will someone miss Blizzcon by the exact 600 points they would have gotten by winning their last qualifying game?
It's actually kinda exciting.
Just try again in the last season of GSL/SSL, Korean Terrans xoxo
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah... that happened. But more than 3 Korean Terrans at Blizzcon would be imbalanced anyway
OK, with only 2 GSL and SSL seasons, granting huge amounts of points, let us look at the Standing 2015 and check, who would not qualify to BlizzCon. So let us forget the last season and count only the first 2 seasons and points only from GSL and SSL:
Life, Maru, Rain and Classic are the winners, so guaranteed places and in addition to them, Dream, herO, PartinG and ByuL would make it. So we would miss just Innovation, sOs, Zest and FanTaSy from the participants ... so this is not that bad.
If I understand the system correctly, the big losers will be the second tier korean players as well as the up and comers.
The future players like Dream, Dark and Stats will have a harder time proving themselves with less GSL/SSL tournaments. Ofc there's still pro league as well but still, less opportunity.
I as a viewer don't like this as well, since I enjoy the GSL/SSL games more than foreigner games. But that's just my taste, other ppl might like the foreigner games more.
So what about players like State that played the SSL qualifiers, are they allowed to play both WCS Korea and WCS Circuit? And what if they had earned points in WCS Korea and then also in WCS Circuit?
On December 18 2015 07:50 HsDLTitich wrote: So what about players like State that played the SSL qualifiers, are they allowed to play both WCS Korea and WCS Circuit? And what if they had earned points in WCS Korea and then also in WCS Circuit?
Forget that that was wrong. Yeah State can play both that's fine.
I’m not sure if DH and IEM still allow Koreans so I can’t really say, but it would really sucks if they aren’t allow in those events anymore. I would really be happy even if they only allow like 2 Koreans for each DH/IEM tournament. I mean the reason why I am so hyped (and a lot of other people as well) about ShoWTimE is that he was able to show his skills against PartinG, a very good Korean. I doubt that if he wasn’t fighting against a Korean, would he be pushing his limit that far and would we be so impressed with his play? I can cheer for foreigners, sure thing as I will cheer for ShoWTimE, but if I don’t know how good a foreigner is and if the player is able to fight on par with Koreans then how can I cheer for them?
Unlike a majority of SC2 fans, my country doesn’t have a SC2 scene whatsoever (I even doubt if we have a e-Sport scene at all) and my region is Asia. I couldn’t give half a damn about the Chinese/Taiwan scene if I try (there is just some… tension between Vietnam and China) so my regional choice would obviously be Korea.
Also, not everyone have a chance to travel to Korea or to BlizzCon to meet their favourite Korean players, so completely blocking them out of DH or IEM would sucks big time. I would love to see more global events that allow Koreans and the foreigners that give out WCS points, that would be amazing and exciting to watch. On the topic of WCS Korea, there will only be GSL, SSL combine with the weekly ProLeague so the scene will be really quiet, and the more tournaments the better. GSL and SSL is only going to have 2 seasons, compare to the foreigners scene that have the Winter, Spring and Summer Championships, that doesn’t sound really fair to me. Also, some of the very good Korean players already failed SSL (like Zest, Life, Sos, Maru, you name them) so it would sucks if they can’t show up at BlizzCon because they failed to qualify for 1 tournament.
The thing about tournaments is that the more we see of them, the more we will see how a certain meta, of match-up has evolved or how a certain player has improved. We can see more about the so-called balance issue that everyone loves to whine about. If there is only 4 major tournaments, there will certainly be 1 race that win more than the others and will inflict the debate. In my opinions, a larger amount of major tournaments in the Korean scene (and the foreign scene, too, but I think they already have more leagues than the Korean?) is totally necessary, especially now when Blizzard have just released a new expansion.
On December 18 2015 07:39 Diabolique wrote: OK, with only 2 GSL and SSL seasons, granting huge amounts of points, let us look at the Standing 2015 and check, who would not qualify to BlizzCon. So let us forget the last season and count only the first 2 seasons and points only from GSL and SSL:
Life, Maru, Rain and Classic are the winners, so guaranteed places and in addition to them, Dream, herO, PartinG and ByuL would make it. So we would miss just Innovation, sOs, Zest and FanTaSy from the participants ... so this is not that bad.
If you adjust the point values to the new system, minus Life/Maru/Rain/Classic:
Dream 7000 PartinG 4800 ByuL 4000 Rogue 3600 Stats 3600 TY 2100 Dear 2100 sOs 1800 INno 1800
Atleast gsl moved afreeca and I can watch vods for free. DOnt feel like reading alll these details but if it means less koreans at DH and IEM for example I will def not be watching. The ongoing HSC is already bad enough with not enough koreans.
FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
On December 18 2015 07:37 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: So reading again, what are the confirmed WCS Circuit tournaments?
there are 3: -spring circuit championship -summer circuit championship -winter circuit championship
Each of these has regional qualifiers, winner of these qualifies immediately for Global finals playoffs. Are these DH/IEM? Or standalone?
Is there any other confirmed WCS Circuit tournament yet? I don't see any ' Circuit Events' yet? Apollo seems to say on reddit that there are 11?
The idea behind the change is that the WCS league is not taking so much time out of the calendar year which was preventing non-Blizzard tournaments from having access to the best SC2 players. So right now a top WCS Circuit player will be playing at least 7 tournaments: 3 Regional Challengers, 3 Circuit Championships, 1 WCS Global Finals (at least the playoffs). But each of those these Blizzard events during the season will be taking up only one weekend of all the players' time so other events have much bigger gaps to fit in.
I don't know what the 11 tournaments are unless he's counting the 7 I did and also putting in 2x GSL and 2x SSL, which wouldn't really make sense from a player's perspective.
edit: I think he is actually talking with some insider info about major events that a WCS Circuit player will actually be able to play. I think he's referencing some WCS Circuit Events outside of the Championship and its Regional Challengers. Should be good.
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Chances of seeing Flash in an NA tournament in 2016 were already zero.
I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
So foreigners can play SSL & GSL and WCS Circuit, but Koreans are locked? How is that fair? Oh, it's fair because everyone knows they have no chance at performing in those leagues...
Must suck really hard to be an up and coming SC2 player in Korea.
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Nope. There are still global events possible in NA Also i have to tell you something about Flash...
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Chances of seeing Flash in an NA tournament in 2016 were already zero.
On December 18 2015 07:58 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Nope. There are still global events possible in NA Also i have to tell you something about Flash...
Like Flash, read pls.
Global Events are not guaranteed to be in NA. Possible, yes, but who knows really.
I'll wait and see. But my first impression (Well second technically after my earlier post) is this seems a lot like saving yourself from a bleeding out wound by shooting yourself in the head
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create.
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Chances of seeing Flash in an NA tournament in 2016 were already zero.
Like Flash.
The only players in SC2 actually like Flash are Jaedong and Stork. And Jaedong has a visa.
I expect something more, there's no real reason to have less korean leagues for the system as it is presented now, it would work just as fine with 6 instead of 4. They must have had a plan that includes a reason to reduce that number, and that plan isn't apparent right now, which is why I expect something else.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Id rather blizzard just invest all their money into the korean scene and if a foreigner wants to play sc2 professional they should have to travel there. This is like charity for the foreigner casters and sc2 personalities who work outside of korea.
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create.
Be one of the only events apart from BlizzCon where fans can see foreigners vs Koreans? Seems very attractive to me tbh. I guess we'll see.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
pretty sure WCS Global was pulling in way way more viewers than any DH did and maybe even more than some IEMs
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
pretty sure WCS Global was pulling in way way more viewers than any DH did and maybe even more than some IEMs
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create.
Be one of the only events apart from BlizzCon where fans can see foreigners vs Koreans? Seems very attractive to me tbh. I guess we'll see.
That's the real trick isn't it? Do these tournaments actually believe that would be worth their while? Considering how much input they had into this system, I'm going with no right now.
This will cause a wave of Korean retirements and richer teams will absolutely grab a Korean or two and a visa so they can get at some easier money. The prizepools for GSL/SSL are still far too top heavy, regardless of how much extra money has been put in.
If Axiom weren't already closed, I'd have closed it today.
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Chances of seeing Flash in an NA tournament in 2016 were already zero.
Like Flash.
The only players in SC2 actually like Flash are Jaedong and Stork. And Jaedong has a visa.
Like Flash, as in they play mostly in Korea and Proleague, and some times attended Global events...
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create.
Can they actually base this belief on much? The biggest SC2 events viewer wise in the last few years were always Blizzcon and Katowice and those were almost full Korean. It has to be at least in part based on marketing. Korean events at "reasonable" times for EU/NA draw good views from what I can tell.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
pretty sure WCS Global was pulling in way way more viewers than any DH did and maybe even more than some IEMs
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create.
Be one of the only events apart from BlizzCon where fans can see foreigners vs Koreans? Seems very attractive to me tbh. I guess we'll see.
That's the real trick isn't it? Do these tournaments actually believe that would be worth their while? Considering how much input they had into this system, I'm going with no right now.
This will cause a wave of Korean retirements and richer teams will absolutely grab a Korean or two and a visa so they can get at some easier money. The prizepools for GSL/SSL are still far too top heavy, regardless of how much extra money has been put in.
If Axiom weren't already closed, I'd have closed it today.
Thanks for the input, completely agree with the top heavy prize pool btw.
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Chances of seeing Flash in an NA tournament in 2016 were already zero.
Like Flash.
The only players in SC2 actually like Flash are Jaedong and Stork. And Jaedong has a visa.
Like Flash, as in they play mostly in Korea and Proleague, and some times attended Global events...
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Chances of seeing Flash in an NA tournament in 2016 were already zero.
Like Flash.
The only players in SC2 actually like Flash are Jaedong and Stork. And Jaedong has a visa.
Like Flash, as in they play mostly in Korea and Proleague, and some times attended Global events...
Use a player who's great but not retired if you don't want replies like that.
This community some times...
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Is just asking for a joke response man. Don't take it so hard. Just come up with an example who doesn't have his retirement ceremony this weekend next time.
On December 18 2015 07:56 JabuSeika wrote: Chances of seeing someone like Flash or any other big Korean players in an NA tournament for 2016 are now zero.
Thank you Blizz.
Chances of seeing Flash in an NA tournament in 2016 were already zero.
Like Flash.
The only players in SC2 actually like Flash are Jaedong and Stork. And Jaedong has a visa.
Like Flash, as in they play mostly in Korea and Proleague, and some times attended Global events...
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
TBH I dont really want to see any foreigners unless they are in Korea competing with Koreans. Not a single foreigner right now is interesting to me.
Is just asking for a joke response man. Don't take it so hard. Just come up with an example who doesn't have his retirement ceremony this weekend next time.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
pretty sure WCS Global was pulling in way way more viewers than any DH did and maybe even more than some IEMs
Nonsense.
Nope, DH viewers were piss poor. No one really cared for DHs, they were boring
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Is that a joke or you have some data? Please share if so.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
The thing is that we now expect the level of play of foreigners to increase, but a) remove opportunities to prove it and b) ignore that Korea still has all infra-structure set up and is way ahead in terms of practice environment even with WCS and game changes.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
pretty sure WCS Global was pulling in way way more viewers than any DH did and maybe even more than some IEMs
Nonsense.
Nope, DH viewers were piss poor. No one really cared for DHs, they were boring
I never cared about DH before the final day. Too much filler.
People, compaining that some great players (Life, sOs, ...) are already 600 points behind the anonymous ones, who made it to the RO16 - that is not important at all. 600 points is nothing. It would be something in the old system, where the WCS ranking was showing the real performance of a player. The new system is just an "ad hoc" system. You have 4 runs per year, and you must either win or get the second place. If you don't make it, you will end up in the huge groupd of RO8, RO4 participants ... they could qualify for BlizzCon if there were 13 or 14 or 15 players qualified. But now, in the best 8 players, they have no chance.
On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
The thing is that we now expect the level of play of foreigners to increase, but a) remove opportunities to prove it and b) ignore that Korea still has all infra-structure set up and is way ahead in terms of practice environment even with WCS and game changes.
Well yes all players being in one city in Korea will always be a huge advantage no matter what. But at least foreigners now have a decent chance to earn a living so hopefully more talents will practice full time.
On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
I believe there was little incentive to practice fulltime, as koreans soaked up a lot of money from foreign tournaments so it's very hard to make a living. This new system will make it easier to justify spending all your time practing SC2 hopefully.
On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
It's like coming from a football field where you play football with your friends to the biggest stadion in Europe to play the best teams in the entire world. I don't see how it teaches you anything or find it motivating.
On December 18 2015 08:12 Nerchio wrote: Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
I think this is just a case of some people seeing it as we lost two things, and gained one.
We lost wcs premier, and Koreans in foreign tournaments.
In return we gained more prize money for foreigners.
Only the future will tell if the right decisions were made.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Don't take this the wrong way, but there are plenty of people who have absolutely no interest in watching you play (see TotalBiscuit's viewership numbers).
If Korean events were at reasonable times in the US rather than at 4am they would eclipse any region locked tournament with low level European pros duking it out to see who is the best foreigner.
The best "foreigner" only matters in the context of Koreans. People want to watch foreigners only if there is a hope that they can beat a Korean because of the drama and significance of that win. Because Korea has a much more established scene and people like underdogs.
People don't watch you play simply because you are Polish.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
If only image only posts were legal cause if THAT doesn't deserve a laughing gif I don't know what does
I feel so bad for koreans who just like anybody else in the world grew up aspiring to be a pro sc player and now their opportunities to become something have been destroyed in the name of protecting a playerbase that has time and time again proven to be unworthy of the title of 'pro'. lilbow at blizzcon was pretty much the last straw for me.
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create.
Be one of the only events apart from BlizzCon where fans can see foreigners vs Koreans? Seems very attractive to me tbh. I guess we'll see.
That's the real trick isn't it? Do these tournaments actually believe that would be worth their while? Considering how much input they had into this system, I'm going with no right now.
This will cause a wave of Korean retirements and richer teams will absolutely grab a Korean or two and a visa so they can get at some easier money. The prizepools for GSL/SSL are still far too top heavy, regardless of how much extra money has been put in.
If Axiom weren't already closed, I'd have closed it today.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Don't take this the wrong way, but there are plenty of people who have absolutely no interest in watching you play (see TotalBiscuit's viewership numbers).
If Korean events were at reasonable times in the US rather than at 4am they would eclipse any region locked tournament with low level European pros duking it out to see who is the best foreigner.
The best "foreigner" only matters in the context of Koreans. People want to watch foreigners only if there is a hope that they can beat a Korean because of the drama and significance of that win. Because Korea has a much more established scene and people like underdogs.
People don't watch you play simply because you are Polish.
Maybe it's like that for you, it's totally different for me in terms of watching stuff and not including me being a progamer.
On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
It's like coming from a football field where you play football with your friends to the biggest stadion in Europe to play the best teams in the entire world. I don't see how it teaches you anything or find it motivating.
SO you think playing with your friends only will make you as good as the best in the world? Are you joking or being sarcastic I dont get it.
On December 18 2015 07:57 ClanWars wrote: FYI since some people seem to not be understanding this, this system does not provide 11 extra tournaments, those tournaments are repurposed IEMs/Dreamhacks with Blizzard support and bigger prizepools, but a region lock.
But some DHs and IEMs will also be Global Events with 7500points which aren't region locked right?
They can choose to be if they want to, but considering the huge amount of input those organisations had into this system, which is clearly favouring foreigners, I have to wonder if this is out of the belief that Koreans don't pull as much viewership. The requirements for a 7500 event incidently are stringent, WCS 5000 circuit events are easier to create.
Be one of the only events apart from BlizzCon where fans can see foreigners vs Koreans? Seems very attractive to me tbh. I guess we'll see.
That's the real trick isn't it? Do these tournaments actually believe that would be worth their while? Considering how much input they had into this system, I'm going with no right now.
This will cause a wave of Korean retirements and richer teams will absolutely grab a Korean or two and a visa so they can get at some easier money. The prizepools for GSL/SSL are still far too top heavy, regardless of how much extra money has been put in.
If Axiom weren't already closed, I'd have closed it today.
GSL prize pools have always been top heavy.
And that has consistently been a problem yes. Whats your point?
Regarding GSL prize pool - the amount the winner receives is unchanged next year while everyone below 1st place gets at least double of what they got this year, with the lowest placements increasing the most by %. They actually changed that a bit.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
I agree with this. I think you need a proper system where you give fans the possilbility to compete (and possibly win tournaments) over a longer period. 1 foreign tournament once in a while is doomed to fail because the fans do not know nor care enough about these players in the first place. However, if they had followed the players over a longer period they become more interested in seeing how they perform.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
On December 18 2015 08:12 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote:
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
But the whole idea behind this is that in the end the level of play will increase in nonkorean leagues because foreigners have more to look forward to now. So if level of play increases they could give more resistance to the koreans hopefully and the scene as a whole would balance out a little bit better.
You believe the foreigner level of play will increase by shielding them from a higher level of play? Interesting....
It's like coming from a football field where you play football with your friends to the biggest stadion in Europe to play the best teams in the entire world. I don't see how it teaches you anything or find it motivating.
SO you think playing with your friends only will make you as good as the best in the world? Are you joking or being sarcastic I dont get it.
No but you need something to play in first before you meet those guys which is tournaments or events where you don't face them.
Seriously when you see the level of practice and dedication of some of these young Koreans who grew up idolizing flash/bisu etc. and then you tell me that Lilbow deserves a spot over them... I have no words.
I mean that's like saying ok, no more Brazilians can play in the Premier League. Because the infrastructure in their country for developing soccer talent is too good.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
pretty sure WCS Global was pulling in way way more viewers than any DH did and maybe even more than some IEMs
Nonsense.
Nope, DH viewers were piss poor. No one really cared for DHs, they were boring
Well, you are right. DH was somehow a second level tournament ... million of foreigners, just a few, usually not the best Koreans. What is important for me was IEM, as it had great players, both foreigners and Koreans.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
I think the assumption is that many viewers who were interested in seeing a non-Korean scene develop stopped watching years ago or never started watching. The goal is to get their attention. Your data may show what the preferences of the current community are, not what kind of potential there is for a non-Korean scene to establish itself for years to come. Basically, I think they look at League of Legends and major sports and think "we can be more like them while continuing to satisfy the hardcore fans."
There's no sport that tries to provide as many matches between top players/teams as some SC2 fans are demanding of Blizzard. We get a ton of high skill matches. There's no way they're going to stay one dimensional and just create more and more of them. You can learn to get by with the amount that there will be in 2016, which is a lot, and viewers who value other things will have some of their desires addressed.
Besides, the hope is that non-Korean players achieve even greater skill. It is pretty uncivil to just act like it's obvious that the world outside of Korea will never do a better job of producing competitive SC2 players.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
I think the assumption is that many viewers who were interested in seeing a non-Korean scene develop stopped watching years ago or never started watching. The goal is to get their attention. Your data may show what the preferences of the current community are, not what kind of potential there is for a non-Korean scene to establish itself for years to come. Basically, I think they look at League of Legends and major sports and think "we can be more like them while continuing to satisfy the hardcore fans."
There's no sport that tries to provide as many matches between top players/teams as some SC2 fans are demanding of Blizzard. We get a ton of high skill matches. There's no way they're going to stay one dimensional and just create more and more of them. You can learn to get by with the amount that there will be in 2016, which is a lot, and viewers who value other things will have some of their desires addressed.
Besides, the hope is that non-Korean players achieve even greater skill. It is pretty uncivil to just act like it's obvious that the world outside of Korea will never do a better job of producing competitive SC2 players.
They won't. EVER. All the WCS Welfare Tournaments in the world and practice time won't change that
Thank god for basetrade tv providing korean online tournaments. The level of play in those daily online tournaments dwarfs anything I have seen all day from homestory cup. Gonna be a sad year for sc2 but atleast I wont have to split my attention between csgo and sc2 when it comes to DH and IEM.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes play on par or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
On December 18 2015 08:23 DinoMight wrote: Seriously when you see the level of practice and dedication of some of these young Koreans who grew up idolizing flash/bisu etc. and then you tell me that Lilbow deserves a spot over them... I have no words.
I mean that's like saying ok, no more Brazilians can play in the Premier League. Because the infrastructure in their country for developing soccer talent is too good.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that is?
Premiere League just limited the number of non-EU players this year. This change is to give more homegrown talents a chance.
I'm completely fine with the WCS Circuit being more region locked to help the foreign scene. I just hate that we have 1 less GSL and SSL now and hope we get a lot of Global events.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
I think the assumption is that many viewers who were interested in seeing a non-Korean scene develop stopped watching years ago or never started watching. The goal is to get their attention. Your data may show what the preferences of the current community are, not what kind of potential there is for a non-Korean scene to establish itself for years to come. Basically, I think they look at League of Legends and major sports and think "we can be more like them while continuing to satisfy the hardcore fans."
There's no sport that tries to provide as many matches between top players/teams as some SC2 fans are demanding of Blizzard. We get a ton of high skill matches. There's no way they're going to stay one dimensional and just create more and more of them. You can learn to get by with the amount that there will be in 2016, which is a lot, and viewers who value other things will have some of their desires addressed.
Besides, the hope is that non-Korean players achieve even greater skill. It is pretty uncivil to just act like it's obvious that the world outside of Korea will never do a better job of producing competitive SC2 players.
They won't. EVER. All the WCS Welfare Tournaments in the world and practice time won't change that
So you think koreans are genetically better at starcraft? -_- come on dude
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
The last year of wol was awful BECAUSE of broodlord infestor. Dont compare yourself to naniwa or stephano ever again either, even thorzain.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Is that a joke or you have some data? Please share if so.
Pretty much everyone i know in real life doesn´t care about korean leagues, but they watched WCS from time to time. Teamliquid is just a representation of hardcore fans, most of guys willing to pay for GSL or stay up late at night and totally not the casual viewer. Even though it seems like 99% on TL are negative about it, there is a big amount of people who will be happy with it. In the end, we will have to wait, but I personally believe it will be great.
I hope this region lock will lead to some foreigners getting to the "star level" Right now i don't particularly care for any foreign player, maybe this will change it. (if done well enough)
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
I think the assumption is that many viewers who were interested in seeing a non-Korean scene develop stopped watching years ago or never started watching. The goal is to get their attention. Your data may show what the preferences of the current community are, not what kind of potential there is for a non-Korean scene to establish itself for years to come. Basically, I think they look at League of Legends and major sports and think "we can be more like them while continuing to satisfy the hardcore fans."
There's no sport that tries to provide as many matches between top players/teams as some SC2 fans are demanding of Blizzard. We get a ton of high skill matches. There's no way they're going to stay one dimensional and just create more and more of them. You can learn to get by with the amount that there will be in 2016, which is a lot, and viewers who value other things will have some of their desires addressed.
Besides, the hope is that non-Korean players achieve even greater skill. It is pretty uncivil to just act like it's obvious that the world outside of Korea will never do a better job of producing competitive SC2 players.
Yes this is probably the best way of thinking about the answer.
The bigguest issue we should really be considering when we talk about these structural issue is simply how we motivate more players to compete and watch. To some degree this comes with the fundamental notion that the game is inherently able to draw a large enough crowd of players and fans to support a worldwide competition. The more pressing question however is how we can motivate both korean players and foreign players to compete and compete at the highest levels. At the moment the de-incentives from both sides are hard to ignore.
It's pretty immature and fatalistic thinking when trying to solve a problem to assume that one end is ultimately fixed (the relative possibility of foreign players earning any degree of success)
Ultimately though we have to consider that the abstract idea of "the health of the scene" is in some ways just as important as the individual lives and possiblities of the Korean players who give up a lot to become professional players.
At a more base level: the fundamental question is simply how can we make the game more appealling to watch and play, ultimately reaching the level of stability to maintain this sort of circuit.
Personally I don't think most of these issues will be solved by adjusting the circuit.
On December 18 2015 08:23 DinoMight wrote: Seriously when you see the level of practice and dedication of some of these young Koreans who grew up idolizing flash/bisu etc. and then you tell me that Lilbow deserves a spot over them... I have no words.
I mean that's like saying ok, no more Brazilians can play in the Premier League. Because the infrastructure in their country for developing soccer talent is too good.
Do you realize how fucking stupid that is?
except they are still playing in the premier league while not being allowed to play in the "lesser" leagues at the same time....
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes play on par or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
I agree that Hots was bad, that's why i stopped watching at least. But it's still better to watch bad game + top players then bad game + mediocre players.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
The last year of wol was awful BECAUSE of broodlord infestor. Dont compare yourself to naniwa or stephano ever again either, even thorzain.
Thank you for this post, I will start to ignore your posts from now on.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
I think the assumption is that many viewers who were interested in seeing a non-Korean scene develop stopped watching years ago or never started watching. The goal is to get their attention. Your data may show what the preferences of the current community are, not what kind of potential there is for a non-Korean scene to establish itself for years to come. Basically, I think they look at League of Legends and major sports and think "we can be more like them while continuing to satisfy the hardcore fans."
There's no sport that tries to provide as many matches between top players/teams as some SC2 fans are demanding of Blizzard. We get a ton of high skill matches. There's no way they're going to stay one dimensional and just create more and more of them. You can learn to get by with the amount that there will be in 2016, which is a lot, and viewers who value other things will have some of their desires addressed.
Besides, the hope is that non-Korean players achieve even greater skill. It is pretty uncivil to just act like it's obvious that the world outside of Korea will never do a better job of producing competitive SC2 players.
They won't. EVER. All the WCS Welfare Tournaments in the world and practice time won't change that
Eh whatever but I can say from personal experience that when I was the best I ever was in BW, and was steadily rising through the ranks of Korean players, I had to quit because I didn't have the opportunities that the current crop of SC2 talent has. If Blizzard announced this system for BW in 2009, I wouldn't have had to stop playing and who knows where I would have ended up. It seems clear to me that this system increases the chances of more non-Korean players reaching their potential because that would have been perfectly true for me in my time.
And Nerchio is here saying he feels more motivated and that he sees an opportunity. IDK what more you want to have some hope.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes play on par or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
You speak as if you know everyone's opinion. Yet I am very excited for this system. I hope some tournaments do upgrade to global events, i believe some will, as it will give us more foreign vs Korean tournaments. But at the start of sc2 when things were separated, the game was exciting and fucking hype. And as some events started to add Koreans is when it peaked. It can be like that again. I hope it will be.
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
It's just the basic notion that winning money should be deserved by those with the most skill.
It's an easy opinion to develop as a fan of the game starcraft, but a bit one dimensional in the larger sense of what it means to have an esport and a community that is stable (and exists).
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes play on par or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
HotS is a bad game now? Seriously...?
How would you call games that last hours without any hope for the end or seeing mass blink stalkers/deathballs and zergs that were not able to stop it even in your favourite country Korea?
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
RIP Germany .
Germany too but I thought of 3 countries that had bigger success and there wasn't anyone from Germany like that
What is going to happen to korean players that don't qualify for SSL/GSL? (Fantasy, PartinG, Rain)
They have to sit around for a long time waiting for the next SSL/GSL.
If they are participating in Proleague, I guess that's good for them.
But then what about those that don't play in Proleague?
This group of players that used to make money/wcs points by going to IEM and Dreamhack, which is not an option anymore.
Fantasy, PartinG, and Rain made a significant amount of WCS points from the foreign tournament scene in 2015.
That's how they made it to the top 16 of Blizzcon.
With out doing well in GSL/SSL, getting to a Global Tournament for them will now be very difficult.
They will have to either stay in Korea and wait it out with no tournaments, which is unlikely.
Or get a visa and move to a WCS region.
If they have the financial backing to make the latter happen, that's great for WCS Circuit.
But if they don't, we have 3 of the top 16 players from 2015 left out.
That's only looking at the 2015 top 16, if you're further down, don't qualify for GSL/SSL, don't have a proleague team, don't have a foreign team to sponsor you, you're out of luck buddy, doesn't really matter if your skill is high.
I believe, Blizzard will be successful in bringing closer together the levels of play of foreigners and Koreans with this.
Not because it would improve the level of play of foreigners. But it will decrease the level of play of Koreans. Because it is taking away from them a lot of possibilities to excel, to win money in foreign tournaments, to get to BlizzCon. It will be OK for the TOP 8 players, for the rest, there is no chance. So at least, there will be proleague.
Anyway, the best thing would be to create a foreigner team in Proleague, who would be hopeless last each week losing 0:3 or 1:3, but its players would be then winning events like DreamHack.
On December 18 2015 08:03 Diabolique wrote: [quote] Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
RIP Germany .
Germany too but I thought of 3 countries that had bigger success and there wasn't anyone from Germany like that
Wow, that was low. I'm still cheering for you to win HSC though, so you'd better start working on a plan on how the beat ShoWTimE. I remember a certain tournament in sweden not too long ago...
On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote: [quote] Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
RIP Germany .
Germany too but I thought of 3 countries that had bigger success and there wasn't anyone from Germany like that
Wow, that was low. I'm still cheering for you to win HSC though, so you'd better start working on a plan on how the beat ShoWTimE. I remember a certain tournament in sweden not too long ago...
Showtime is good but in this topic we are talking about globally good players that could put up a fight with Koreans throughout the sc2 scene and from Germany nobody comes up to my mind like a foreigner hope.
On December 18 2015 08:07 Nerchio wrote: [quote] Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
RIP Germany .
Germany too but I thought of 3 countries that had bigger success and there wasn't anyone from Germany like that
Wow, that was low. I'm still cheering for you to win HSC though, so you'd better start working on a plan on how the beat ShoWTimE. I remember a certain tournament in sweden not too long ago...
Come on, you know, ShowTime is nothing compared to Sollar, or Sorral, ot whoever played under the name Serral in Nation Wars :-) But he was unbelievable atDH, you are right ...
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote: [quote] No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
RIP Germany .
Germany too but I thought of 3 countries that had bigger success and there wasn't anyone from Germany like that
Wow, that was low. I'm still cheering for you to win HSC though, so you'd better start working on a plan on how the beat ShoWTimE. I remember a certain tournament in sweden not too long ago...
Showtime is good but in this topic we are talking about globally good players that could put up a fight with Koreans throughout the sc2 scene and from Germany nobody comes up to my mind like a foreigner hope.
Yeah I guess that's fair, good luck for HSC and 2016! Really hyped to see you in topform again.
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
On December 18 2015 06:40 Zetter wrote: Now I'm very interested in which weekend tournaments will be WCS Global events and which will be WCS circuit events.
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
It's not like thousands of those Koreans players are going to come the tournaments. It's going to be KESPA players.
On December 18 2015 08:10 Diabolique wrote: [quote] No. We all want to see foreigners. But foreigners beating Koreans. Like Snute both GSL and SSL champions at IEM. Or ShowTime almost beating PartinG at DH. It might be interesting for someone to watch the "League of losers", but it is like to watch a Wimbledon, which is allowed only for players ranked lower than TOP20.
How do you want to see foreigners beat Koreans when they get matched with the best players in the world from the perfect practice environment in the first round of every tournament? Don't tell me to go to Korea to practice there because I don't see Kespa welcoming me with open arms and saying "Come Nerchio, we need you to practice with Innovation and Life!!"
But I do not see any possibility for you to get to the Korean level in playing a closed Welfare Circuit with other Europeans. I mentioned the examples: Snute, ShowTime ... they were so close. BlizzCon could sponsor you if you need more money to have the proper motivation ... I do not think, having the locked Welfare Circuit will improve your play.
Remember Lilbow's explanation, why he did not practice. "Because he did not have practice partners." TLO answered to him: "We offered to you to practice with you." Lilbow answered: "But you, all European Zergs, are weak. I have beaten you all. Why would I practice with you? What would it bring to me?"
Having a locked Losers league will not improve the player's skills. The idea of Total Biscuit, forcing Koreans to play on western Ladders might help more.
You do not see the possibility but I do and who knows more about becoming good in Starcraft2 :/
OK, I agree, you know more. As I said at the start. This is great for you. But not great for the current fans of SC2. So we will probably stop watching the welfare tournaments, but of course, it can happen that there will be a new wave of fans arising who will cheer for the best SC2 player from their country (like in my country, it would be probably someone on the WCS ranking 487) and not caring about the high level of the world's best.
I know there is a huge scene in at least 3 countries like Sweden, Poland and France that are in need of having their own heroes. That's also the part why these countries were successful in SC2 but not every country has that.
RIP Germany .
Germany too but I thought of 3 countries that had bigger success and there wasn't anyone from Germany like that
Wow, that was low. I'm still cheering for you to win HSC though, so you'd better start working on a plan on how the beat ShoWTimE. I remember a certain tournament in sweden not too long ago...
Showtime is good but in this topic we are talking about globally good players that could put up a fight with Koreans throughout the sc2 scene and from Germany nobody comes up to my mind like a foreigner hope.
Never forget IM.NesTea(GSL champion?) vs ESC.GoOdy 1-2 at TSL :D
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
Come on, it was foreign money flowing to the best players.
There was nothing stopping tournament organizers for setting up region locked tournaments.
Now Blizzard is forcing it for them, which is entirely different.
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
It's not like thousands of those Koreans players are going to come the tournaments. It's going to be KESPA players.
To be fair, he's not talking about practical concerns so much as the idea that it's simply unethical to value some individuals efforts and abilities over others
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time. Or Barcelona smashing the eredivisie in the netherlands
If you don't allow local competition their scenes will never grow to be better.
On December 18 2015 07:58 Nerchio wrote: I think it looks pretty good, makes me wanna practice but I am a little worried for EU region when there is Latin america etc. with lack of good players
Good for you. You will have more money with less viewers. Great business for players, bad business for sponsors. But maybe, at the end of the year, Blizzard realizes how much money does this system cost them.
Let's see what it looks like, for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners. Especially when a system for foreigners will motivate them to practice enough to put up a fight against koreas in global finals. Then the hype will be more than anything you've seen.
Or the whole thing will implode. One way or the other its a large risk. It could work out, or it could bomb horribly. I guess we'll see.
" for 1 person that wants to see Koreans there are 3 that wants to watch foreigners"
that's not what the data from my tournaments said. The all Korean SHOUTcraft events beat the American SHOUTcraft events in viewership.
Making single tournaments is not going to bring the scene alive, it was already dead to begin with after being flooded with Koreans from perfect practice environment. I totally agree that Koreans play better and they deserve more but we need to give some room to breathe for foreigners too.
The scene died because of Koreans coming to foreign events? This just blows my mind ROTFL
Boxer, Flash, Nada, MVP, Jaedong, MarineKing, Life, Parting, MC, Nesstea, Leenock etc had much much more "star power" then the vast majority of US/EU players. The only non Koreans that got lots of atention were the ones that usually practiced in Korea and got good, Idra, Jinro, TLO, Huk, etc.
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes play on par or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
Obviously because once Kespa switched, the level of Korean play (both in quality and quantity) dramatically increased. If Kespa never switched then Snute/Bunny and maybe a few others would have had Stephano/Naniwa status at least.
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other teams.
EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available?
If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it.
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
It's not like thousands of those Koreans players are going to come the tournaments. It's going to be KESPA players.
And that's different from European Pros flying out to IEM Sao Paulo or Toronto?
So let me get this straight. China is one of the regions supported by the WCS Circuit this year. If one of the big tournaments happens to take place in Beijing this year and it happens to have open qualifiers like http://wcs.battle.net/sc2/en/articles/2016-wcs-details-and-requirements suggests.
Any European pro that didn't qualify for one of the seeded slots can go out and compete through the open bracket, but a Korean pro couldn't, because the European pro has citizenship in one of the eligible countries.
Explain to me how that is different. You're still giving way more opportunity to players with established teams that can fund travel, you're just restricting those kinds of opportunities now only to Western players.
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other players.
EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available?
If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it.
The question is: should we look at everything only from the perspective of how many views it will get? No. Otherwise all the teams from UEFA would never have a chance to get to Champions League
Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other teams.
EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available?
If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it.
You're hilarious. If blizzard made a move like that I would just stop watching Starcraft altogether.
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other players.
Sure you have a solid point more people will watch the Champions League. But the Europa league is still very important for the lesser teams to gain international tournament experience and money. The players on their team get better due to this experience, get exposure, and might move on to a better club. That's why it's important, and I feel the same is true for the SC2 scene
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
This isn't a very rational argument. You are saying that TL forum posters represent the opinions and viewership habits of all starcraft viewers.
You also don't take in account for things like logistics/the time people have to watch tournaments who live in the western hemisphere
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other players.
EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available?
If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it.
The question is: should we look at everything only from the perspective of how many views it will get? No. Otherwise all the teams from UEFA would never have a chance to get to Champions League
But you know, they are supported. The UEFA teams are getting part of the sponsor money, taken away from the total budget of Champions league. But is is WAY LESS than what the teams in the Champions league get.
Anyway, we can finish this discussion, I wish you success in HSC and Nation Wars and hopefully, you will manage to become one of the Chosen 8 for BlizzCon next year. But please, if you get there and play against Life, check your back rocks! And don't let him to finish 3 games in below 10 minutes!!! :-)
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise.
Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience.
Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year.
The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
GSL is on at a non-friendly time for EU and the US. Of course the Foreign viewship numbers are going to be higher for DH/IEM, that has precisely dick to do with the talent on display.
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other players.
Sure you have a solid point more people will watch the Champions League. But the Europa league is still very important for the lesser teams to gain international tournament experience and money. The players on their team get better due to this experience, get exposure, and might move on to a better club. That's why it's important, and I feel the same is true for the SC2 scene
But nobody is saying to cancel it ... Uefa league is good, Welfare circuit is good. Just please do not cancel the premier league for that!
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise.
Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience.
Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year.
The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
Meh, I knew you guys would go back to excuses like that but you can't know what would happen to be honest. The reality is that GSL was not watched more than all other tournaments
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
DH not, but IEM yes. I am not interested in watching just the Koreans. I am also not interested to watch just foreigners. When they play together, I always cheer for the foreigner. I hope, he will make it. But if IEMs and DHs will ban foreigners, there will be no reason to watch them.
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
Come on, it was foreign money flowing to the best players.
There was nothing stopping tournament organizers for setting up region locked tournaments.
Now Blizzard is forcing it for them, which is entirely different.
WCS Korea: Come watch the best players from Korea! WCS America: Come watch the best players from Korea (that decided they didn't stand a chance in Korea)! WCS Europe: Come watch the best players from Korea (that decided they didn't stand a chance in Korea)!
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other teams.
EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available?
If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it.
You're hilarious. If blizzard made a move like that I would just stop watching Starcraft altogether.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
DH not, but IEM yes. I am not interested in watching just the Koreans. I am also not interested to watch just foreigners. When they play together, I always cheer for the foreigner. I hope, he will make it. But if IEMs and DHs will ban foreigners, there will be no reason to watch them.
Right now you're saying that but when foreigner will get better and there is no doubt about that, you will change your mind.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise.
Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience.
Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year.
The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
I don't have a particular opinion about your position, but your arguments are weak.
You're speculating on what the GSL viewership would be if it were during peak hours. Blizzcon is a poor example since it is sold as the culmination of Starcraft for the entire year, and would naturally have the highest viewership. As for your viewing habits that's purely anecdotal.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise.
Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience.
Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year.
The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
Meh, I knew you guys would go back to excuses like that but you can't know what would happen to be honest. The reality is that GSL was not watched more than all other tournaments
Excuses? Try airing Dreamhack starting at 1 in the morning US time and see how well it does. Go ahead and try and propose the idea you'll be laughed out of the meeting.
The fact that GSL and SSL do as well as they do with Western audiences considering when they're being played is amazing, it speaks volumes to how passionate Starcraft fans actually are that they are willing to stay up or wake up early just to watch those games.
But you want to use the viewership numbers as some half way argument to support why Western players deserve more charity money from Blizzard. Yea ok.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
DH not, but IEM yes. I am not interested in watching just the Koreans. I am also not interested to watch just foreigners. When they play together, I always cheer for the foreigner. I hope, he will make it. But if IEMs and DHs will ban foreigners, there will be no reason to watch them.
Right now you're saying that but when foreigner will get better and there is no doubt about that, you will change your mind.
OK, I only hope, if this happens, they will change the system back to a normal competition.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise.
Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience.
Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year.
The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
Meh, I knew you guys would go back to excuses like that but you can't know what would happen to be honest. The reality is that GSL was not watched more than all other tournaments
Excuses? Try airing Dreamhack starting at 1 in the morning US time and see how well it does. Go ahead and try and propose the idea you'll be laughed out of the meeting.
The fact that GSL and SSL do as well as they do with Western audiences considering when they're being played is amazing, it speaks volumes to how passionate Starcraft fans actually are that they are willing to stay up or wake up early just to watch those games.
But you want to use the viewership numbers as some half way argument to support why Western players deserve more charity money from Blizzard. Yea ok.
You guys need to learn how to take part in a discussion T.T I was saying that your argument is not vaild. The viewership was never my argument, it was all you saying that everyone wants to watch Koreans when in fact we can't see it. Blizzcon numbers, really?
What about WCS 2012 season when Stephano won, hehe?
Not a fan. We will now have lesser skilled players at the end of this huge tournament. If Im gonna spend time watching SC2 instead of some other game then I wanna watch the very best. We won't have this now.
More money is nice but that money will go to someone who shouldn't be there lets be real.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise.
Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience.
Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year.
The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
I don't have a particular opinion about your position, but your arguments are weak.
You're speculating on what the GSL viewership would be if it were during peak hours. Blizzcon is a poor example since it is sold as the culmination of Starcraft for the entire year, and would naturally have the highest viewership. As for your viewing habits that's purely anecdotal.
There's evidence to support my claim.
Take a look back a few years to when GSL and GSTL were played at IPL in Las Vegas. Both events, especially the GSTL finals were some of the highest viewed events of that year, that was the event if you don't remember where we had the infamous Parting vs Marineking regame due to a disconnect.
From what I remember reading at the time, both events' viewership absolutely trumped the viewership that GSL and GSTL finals were normally getting that year. Why? Because they were being played at different times and in front of Western audiences.
On December 18 2015 09:09 Nerchio wrote: Now that I think about it. You guys are saying everyone wants to watch koreans but still every DH and every other IEM has bigger foreigner viewership than GSL
Considering that GSL takes place on Korean time and Dreamhack takes place during peak European hours, it's hardly a surprise.
Do a GSL final during Peak North American or European viewing hours like we did back in 2011-2012 and you'll see even higher viewerships for that because now you're combining the highest level starcraft with the peak viewing hours of the majority of the audience.
Or basically you can just look at the numbers Blizzcon does every year.
The fact that I will deliberately stay up to watch the GSL, whereas I'll only tune into Dreamhack even when it's being played a convenient time when there are specific players or match ups that I like tells you everything you need to know about the quality of the tournaments.
I don't have a particular opinion about your position, but your arguments are weak.
You're speculating on what the GSL viewership would be if it were during peak hours. Blizzcon is a poor example since it is sold as the culmination of Starcraft for the entire year, and would naturally have the highest viewership. As for your viewing habits that's purely anecdotal.
Saying that IEM/DH pulls in better numbers is no less speculative. AFAIK there is no comprehensive list of a GSL event's viewer numbers across every region and every streaming platform - English twitch stream, English youtube stream, Korean youtube stream, Korean Afreeca stream, and whatever else they may have.
The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now.
So we're having less Korean Starcraft to watch... Am I understanding this correctly?
I'll pray to the Starcraft gods that there are Kespa Cups and such, but honestly with the lower interest in broadcasting it (hello SpoTV) there is... I don't see it happening
In total: - this is great news for all EU/NA players - this is bad news for the most SC2 fans - this is bad news for the TOP5 Korean players - this is catastrophic news for all great Korean players, who do not belong to the TOP5.
So for us fans, let us just hope, IEM will not be WCS Circuit, but WCS Global Event. DreamHack was actually almost a foreign only tournament anyway ... just with a few 2nd level Koreans, who always took the TOP4 places.
On December 18 2015 09:32 Silvana wrote: So we're having less Korean Starcraft to watch... Am I understanding this correctly?
I'll pray to the Starcraft gods that there are Kespa Cups and such, but honestly with the lower interest in broadcasting it (hello SpoTV) there is... I don't see it happening
SSL/GSL interleague tournament sounds like its replacing KeSPA Cups, but with less players
If foreigners so badly want to have a chance to win then why not just have a 2 league system, like a major and minor league, the koreans and the foreigners then get there own top 16 championship brackets at WCS Finals. This way people can watch the top tier sc2 players and also their foreign heroes.
On December 18 2015 09:29 Nerchio wrote: The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now.
Any foreigner who is on a serious team have the opportunity to go to Korea tomorrow and practice to be the best. You won't become the best by playing on the NA ladder 5 games a day.
Look at some of the best foreign hope through the time. Like Jinro, Huk, Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett etc. They all went to Korea, dedicated themselves and what happened? They got good at the freaking game. Why do you need the charity help so badly?
I for one am not looking forward with half the bracket being full of foreigners who can't be bothered to practice aka LilBow for the biggest tournament of the year.
On December 18 2015 09:29 Nerchio wrote: The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now.
Any foreigner who is on a serious team have the opportunity to go to Korea tomorrow and practice to be the best. You won't become the best by playing on the NA ladder 5 games a day.
Look at some of the best foreign hope through the time. Like Jinro, Huk, Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett etc. They all went to Korea, dedicated themselves and what happened? They got good at the freaking game. Why do you need the charity help so badly?
I for one am not looking forward with half the bracket being full of foreigners who can't be bothered to practice aka LilBow for the biggest tournament of the year.
As I said, going to Korea is not a solution to anything. Kespa is not going to welcome you with open hands. You can throw examples left and right but there is no foreigner that really dedicated in Korea.
On December 18 2015 09:29 Nerchio wrote: The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now.
Any foreigner who is on a serious team have the opportunity to go to Korea tomorrow and practice to be the best. You won't become the best by playing on the NA ladder 5 games a day.
Look at some of the best foreign hope through the time. Like Jinro, Huk, Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett etc. They all went to Korea, dedicated themselves and what happened? They got good at the freaking game. Why do you need the charity help so badly?
I for one am not looking forward with half the bracket being full of foreigners who can't be bothered to practice aka LilBow for the biggest tournament of the year.
As I said, going to Korea is not a solution to anything. Kespa is not going to welcome you with open hands. You can throw examples left and right but there is no foreigner that really dedicated in Korea.
No one is dedicated right now and it shows. Because no foreigner is good at the game. What do you mean Kespa is not going to welcome you? Blizzard just said in this statement that any player can play in Korea if they want. Talk to a Korean team, ask if you can rent a bed if you can't then why not rent a 1 bedroom apartment in Seoul and go HAM on the KR Ladder. Judging by your team's winning and yourself you can afford it. That's where most KR pros get their practice anyway.
Prefered the koreans train the foreigners theme from before.But I guess if they give up on that, then this is the best way to keep Sc2 alive outside of Korea. And the foreingers can pay kespa to give them a super training for a few month and then they can rock some tournaments.
just hope they stop this everlasting changes ... oh wait everyone wants changes, to keep thinks fresh *sigh*. Guess its back to chess.
You know. I've never ever understood the appeal of college sports. Sure you went there, but no matter what, even if your team wins and is the best of the best in college. They would in all likely hood get wrecked even by 3 string pros.
This too me sounds similar. Who cares about the out come of the tournament, when code B Korean players could eat them alive.
I entirely understand the goal of what Blizz is trying to do, and honestly it IS Needed. I watched Hots at blizzcon, and it just seemed as though the audience was so into rooting on their white guys. I'll never understand it, but the game needs an elite set of foreigners to compete with KR for the health of the esports scene.
They are just executing it entirely wrong. I offer this solution.
Give Both DH and IEM, WCS global status allowing anyone available to participate. Then create online tournaments that are region locked, NA and EU, and make part of WCS circuit. We have 16 slots right now. Make it so Kr get 8, Circuit gets 4, and 4 come from the Global events.
Seems horrible and brutal for korean players ones not making it through the SSL qualifiers last night already missing out on 25% of the tournaments for the year. Korea has so many players last thing they need is less tournaments to play in
On December 18 2015 10:01 Phredxor wrote: With less Korean leagues and less chance for travel we're gonna lose some more Korean players
I have heard some potentially ideas and also contributed my own on the subject of providing better grass roots support for Korean players. Korea seems to be lacking fresh blood to replace the guys who are retiring and that's going to kill the scene eventually. As an outsider, Korea might sound great. Wow, they have these 2 big studio leagues and team houses! Yeah, but those leagues are crushingly difficult to even qualify for much less actually do well in and every other competition is over-seas behind the huge financial barrier of flight and accommodation. Now the wall is up, you can't go to those events even if you can afford them, you can't make a name for yourself outside of GSL/SSL anymore.
It is of great concern. Olimoleague and other similar ventures are going to become much more important over the next 12 months. There needs to be a large financial injection into grass-roots events in which the so-called "Code B" koreans can prove themselves and start to build their brand.
On December 18 2015 10:15 Xyliaa wrote: Seems horrible and brutal for korean players ones not making it through the SSL qualifiers last night already missing out on 25% of the tournaments for the year. Korea has so many players last thing they need is less tournaments to play in
There will still most likely be other korean tournaments like kespa-cup. Also there will be WCS global events which they can attend.
On December 18 2015 10:01 Phredxor wrote: With less Korean leagues and less chance for travel we're gonna lose some more Korean players
I have heard some potentially ideas and also contributed my own on the subject of providing better grass roots support for Korean players. Korea seems to be lacking fresh blood to replace the guys who are retiring and that's going to kill the scene eventually. As an outsider, Korea might sound great. Wow, they have these 2 big studio leagues and team houses! Yeah, but those leagues are crushingly difficult to even qualify for much less actually do well in and every other competition is over-seas behind the huge financial barrier of flight and accommodation. Now the wall is up, you can't go to those events even if you can afford them, you can't make a name for yourself outside of GSL/SSL anymore.
It is of great concern. Olimoleague and other similar ventures are going to become much more important over the next 12 months. There needs to be a large financial injection into grass-roots events in which the so-called "Code B" koreans can prove themselves and start to build their brand.
Oh nice, i hope some of those ideas happen.
Yeah it's worried me for a while that all the new players trying to make it are doing so poorly whilst the usual suspects keep doing well. As soon as the current crop all decide its time for military service or whatever then things could get ugly.
People like TANGTANG, Zoun or KESPAevryday just won't cut it
Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
On December 18 2015 11:08 BLinD-RawR wrote: I wonder why the need to cut a third of the events in korea.
Money and direct seeding for global playoffs.
yeah I mean great for players/fans but broadcasters are losing out on this deal, I mean its ok for SPOTV since they have LoL content now but what about afreeca?
Don't know what to think of it. I liked the old WCS system with the region lock which made for this awesome huge foreigner league (+a handful of Koreans that actually lived abroad). This Circuit doesn't sound as hype, but dunno, maybe the Spring/Summer/Winter Finals will be.
Also Koreans not battling with foreigners in weekend events doesn't sound fun.
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
No, there is not a "large percentage of fans who support region locking". But there are some for sure, e.g. all the non- Korean players. We will have a "Division A" and "Division B". Different levels of competition, but the same money. The Division A players will play among themselves and will still be great players. The division B players will play among themselves and ... (through some miracle?) will soon reach the level of the Division A players?
I understand the enthusiasm of all the western players - if someone told me, my salary will be doubled, tripled, quadrupled, I would be also enthusiastic and would promise, I will work twice harder. Will I?
On December 18 2015 09:34 CrayonPopChoa wrote: If foreigners so badly want to have a chance to win then why not just have a 2 league system, like a major and minor league, the koreans and the foreigners then get there own top 16 championship brackets at WCS Finals. This way people can watch the top tier sc2 players and also their foreign heroes.
That's exactly what this is going to be. Yet people are still complaining. Just with an 8 championship bracket instead of 16.
I'm amazed* at how few people here grasp the idea that if you want SC2 to develop longterm you need to develop the global scene. It's never going to be a big e-sport if it stays a niche scene mostly limited to a single country ( which has trouble even sustaining that scene). And it can't develop if it doesn't get room to breath because the Koreans that spill over from their own scene come in and hover up all the meaningful amounts of money leaving nothing to motivate and sustain all but a lucky few global players.
* Well, given the horrific fails in reading comprehension from the beginning of this thread I'm not really that amazed.
On December 18 2015 09:34 CrayonPopChoa wrote: If foreigners so badly want to have a chance to win then why not just have a 2 league system, like a major and minor league, the koreans and the foreigners then get there own top 16 championship brackets at WCS Finals. This way people can watch the top tier sc2 players and also their foreign heroes.
That's exactly what this is going to be. Yet people are still complaining. Just with an 8 championship bracket instead of 16.
I'm amazed* at how few people here grasp the idea that if you want SC2 to develop longterm you need to develop the global scene. It's never going to be a big e-sport if it stays a niche scene mostly limited to a single country ( which has trouble even sustaining that scene). And it can't develop if it doesn't get room to breath because the Koreans that spill over from their own scene come in and hover up all the meaningful amounts of money leaving nothing to motivate and sustain all but a lucky few global players.
* Well, given the horrific fails in reading comprehension from the beginning of this thread I'm not really that amazed.
The Global Scene will not improve, they'll still lose to Koreans on the big stage
The Korean scene will wither because a lot of players will be forced to retire or won't get onto teams.
There won't be any money because a lot of people simply won't watch the region locked tournaments
Blizzard basically cured a mild tummyache by shooting themselves in the head
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
No, there is not a "large percentage of fans who support region locking". But there are some for sure, e.g. all the non- Korean players. We will have a "Division A" and "Division B". Different levels of competition, but the same money. The Division A players will play among themselves and will still be great players. The division B players will play among themselves and ... (through some miracle?) will soon reach the level of the Division A players?
I understand the enthusiasm of all the western players - if someone told me, my salary will be doubled, tripled, quadrupled, I would be also enthusiastic and would promise, I will work twice harder. Will I?
You do not know the number of fans who support region locking any more than I do, browsing reddit and TL I saw many people who posted positive comments. TL probably has the most hardcore audience so it is understandable that the majority of posts here are anti region locking, however the more casual viewer, which by the way is who Blizzard is trying to reach, supports region locking. Just because you have a certain opinion does not mean that a huge majority agrees with you.
Isn't it just better to just keep the prize pool the same, add more travel support to IEM, dreamhack, etc. with regional player requirements, but restrict Koreans to staying in Korea, while simultaneously keeping the same WCS tournaments in 2015?
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
No, there is not a "large percentage of fans who support region locking". But there are some for sure, e.g. all the non- Korean players. We will have a "Division A" and "Division B". Different levels of competition, but the same money. The Division A players will play among themselves and will still be great players. The division B players will play among themselves and ... (through some miracle?) will soon reach the level of the Division A players?
I understand the enthusiasm of all the western players - if someone told me, my salary will be doubled, tripled, quadrupled, I would be also enthusiastic and would promise, I will work twice harder. Will I?
You do not know the number of fans who support region locking any more than I do, browsing reddit and TL I saw many people who posted positive comments. TL probably has the most hardcore audience so it is understandable that the majority of posts here are anti region locking, however the more casual viewer, which by the way is who Blizzard is trying to reach, supports region locking. Just because you have a certain opinion does not mean that a huge majority agrees with you.
Same logic applies to you as well. No one knows. The only person who had hard numbers was TB who had run Shoutcraft, but that was just 2 cases.
On December 18 2015 09:29 Nerchio wrote: The truth is - we could see some foreigners fighting in 2012 and before that. Then the scene got crushed and even if we would have someone that could stand up and fight it was a like a bird that was killed before it even learned how to fly. Now the bird might have a chance to learn how to fly even if there is bigger birds in the sky, thank you I go to sleep now.
Any foreigner who is on a serious team have the opportunity to go to Korea tomorrow and practice to be the best. You won't become the best by playing on the NA ladder 5 games a day.
Look at some of the best foreign hope through the time. Like Jinro, Huk, Snute, Naniwa, Scarlett etc. They all went to Korea, dedicated themselves and what happened? They got good at the freaking game. Why do you need the charity help so badly?
I for one am not looking forward with half the bracket being full of foreigners who can't be bothered to practice aka LilBow for the biggest tournament of the year.
As I said, going to Korea is not a solution to anything. Kespa is not going to welcome you with open hands. You can throw examples left and right but there is no foreigner that really dedicated in Korea.
No one is dedicated right now and it shows. Because no foreigner is good at the game. What do you mean Kespa is not going to welcome you? Blizzard just said in this statement that any player can play in Korea if they want. Talk to a Korean team, ask if you can rent a bed if you can't then why not rent a 1 bedroom apartment in Seoul and go HAM on the KR Ladder. Judging by your team's winning and yourself you can afford it. That's where most KR pros get their practice anyway.
a foriegn player will have to take it to Guilliame Patry levels and learn the language and fully assimilate.
elite basketball players do this all the time by moving to the USA and learning to become fluent in english while at the same time learning their sport and assimilating into american culture and assimilating into the "baller" subculture. the "baller" subculture's language is english. you can't be part of that subculture if you only speak Farsi, French or Russian. If you aspire to become the best basketball player in the world while at the same time refusing to learn how to speak english you are on a suicide mission. Same applies with Starcraft and speaking Korean.
There are probably only a handful of foriegn players with the talent and work ethic to pull off both becoming a top SC2 pro while at the same time learning to speak Korean and assimilating into the culture. The monetary reward is negligible. Therefore, I can hardly "blame" any of these foriegn players for refusing to do what Guilliame Patry did 15 years ago.
The NBA provides monetary rewards 1000 times better than any SC2 pro will ever receive.
I think its retarded to have that much money up for grabs at the global finals. That 200k to the champ you can easily just make it 100k and 50k for second place. The 150k you save can then go to other smaller tourneys. Like spread the wealth man.
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
No, there is not a "large percentage of fans who support region locking". But there are some for sure, e.g. all the non- Korean players. We will have a "Division A" and "Division B". Different levels of competition, but the same money. The Division A players will play among themselves and will still be great players. The division B players will play among themselves and ... (through some miracle?) will soon reach the level of the Division A players?
I understand the enthusiasm of all the western players - if someone told me, my salary will be doubled, tripled, quadrupled, I would be also enthusiastic and would promise, I will work twice harder. Will I?
You do not know the number of fans who support region locking any more than I do, browsing reddit and TL I saw many people who posted positive comments. TL probably has the most hardcore audience so it is understandable that the majority of posts here are anti region locking, however the more casual viewer, which by the way is who Blizzard is trying to reach, supports region locking. Just because you have a certain opinion does not mean that a huge majority agrees with you.
Strange thing to say since it kinda ruins your argument too. You're both just assuming you're in the majority.
I just don't see why people think the 'casual audience' will care more with region locking in place. I don't see it making any difference to people who don't watch SC2 currently.
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
No, there is not a "large percentage of fans who support region locking". But there are some for sure, e.g. all the non- Korean players. We will have a "Division A" and "Division B". Different levels of competition, but the same money. The Division A players will play among themselves and will still be great players. The division B players will play among themselves and ... (through some miracle?) will soon reach the level of the Division A players?
I understand the enthusiasm of all the western players - if someone told me, my salary will be doubled, tripled, quadrupled, I would be also enthusiastic and would promise, I will work twice harder. Will I?
You do not know the number of fans who support region locking any more than I do, browsing reddit and TL I saw many people who posted positive comments. TL probably has the most hardcore audience so it is understandable that the majority of posts here are anti region locking, however the more casual viewer, which by the way is who Blizzard is trying to reach, supports region locking. Just because you have a certain opinion does not mean that a huge majority agrees with you.
We are discussing a very tight nuance.
I do not think, people even here on TL are against some welfare tournaments for weak foreign players, who do not manage to get to the larger ones. That is OK. We are not forced to watch them. We did even cheer for the WCS 2015 even with the player pool, it had.
More money - that is great!
More tournaments - even more great!
In fact, I somehow do not mind that much having 8 foreigners to BlizzCon. It can be funny to see 8 beat ups like Lilbow and compete, who lasts more minutes.
But there are the bad things: No more IEM in the quality, it had in the last years? Probably, we will still see, what they say. If IEM is not region locked, I will not be so disappointed.
Only 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. Very sad.
Only 8 Koreans going to BlizzCon? Fuck it! Together with only 2 seasons of GSL and SSL and region locking of the most foreign tournaments, this means, that not the best Koreans will come to BlizzCon, but it will be a lottery. You have 4 attempts per year to win or end up second in one of the 2 leagues in Korea. You make 4 times 3rd place? Sorry. You probably won't qualify for BlizzCon. It will be random, based on the actual form in the moment of the tournament. Not the long term performace, it is now. This is sad. For all the Korean players.
I would be fine with all the changes if two things happened: 1. IEM stays not region locked. But when you look at the current IEM, it seems, they will even cancel SC2 completely. 2. If the system took 16 best Koreans and 8 best foreigners to BlizzCon and mixes them somehow into groups, brackets, ... that would be awesome. Or 12 Koreans and 4 foreigners.
Depending on how many global tourneys there are this could look very similar to 2015 in terms of actual games' content. There is virtually no way IEM won't have global tourneys, DH and RedBull I'm not so sure (it would surprise me if RedBull had any, perhaps just one?)
On December 18 2015 09:34 CrayonPopChoa wrote: If foreigners so badly want to have a chance to win then why not just have a 2 league system, like a major and minor league, the koreans and the foreigners then get there own top 16 championship brackets at WCS Finals. This way people can watch the top tier sc2 players and also their foreign heroes.
That's exactly what this is going to be. Yet people are still complaining. Just with an 8 championship bracket instead of 16.
I'm amazed* at how few people here grasp the idea that if you want SC2 to develop longterm you need to develop the global scene. It's never going to be a big e-sport if it stays a niche scene mostly limited to a single country ( which has trouble even sustaining that scene). And it can't develop if it doesn't get room to breath because the Koreans that spill over from their own scene come in and hover up all the meaningful amounts of money leaving nothing to motivate and sustain all but a lucky few global players.
* Well, given the horrific fails in reading comprehension from the beginning of this thread I'm not really that amazed.
The Global Scene will not improve, they'll still lose to Koreans on the big stage
The Korean scene will wither because a lot of players will be forced to retire or won't get onto teams.
There won't be any money because a lot of people simply won't watch the region locked tournaments
Blizzard basically cured a mild tummyache by shooting themselves in the head
Yes I'm sure your doom and gloom prediction will pan out, after all everyone knows how good the TL userbase is at predicting the scene being ruined LOL.
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
On December 18 2015 12:30 Nebuchad wrote: Depending on how many global tourneys there are this could look very similar to 2015 in terms of actual games' content. There is virtually no way IEM won't have global tourneys, DH and RedBull I'm not so sure (it would surprise me if RedBull had any, perhaps just one?)
There's pretty much no market now for the smaller LANs featuring Koreans (e.g. Gfinity), while out of all the DH / IEM / Red Bull events last year, there was a grand total of two events which had a prize pool of 50k necessary to qualify as a Global Event (IEM WC and DHW, while the rest were $25k).
Sure, ESL could divert funds used in WCS 2015 to cover global events in 2016, but it's unlikely that we'll match the total weekenders seen in 2015, let alone 2013/14. And whatever happens, it sure won't make up for two fewer starleagues.
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
No, there is not a "large percentage of fans who support region locking". But there are some for sure, e.g. all the non- Korean players. We will have a "Division A" and "Division B". Different levels of competition, but the same money. The Division A players will play among themselves and will still be great players. The division B players will play among themselves and ... (through some miracle?) will soon reach the level of the Division A players?
I understand the enthusiasm of all the western players - if someone told me, my salary will be doubled, tripled, quadrupled, I would be also enthusiastic and would promise, I will work twice harder. Will I?
Alright, very fair. I guess I am bit more op You do not know the number of fans who support region locking any more than I do, browsing reddit and TL I saw many people who posted positive comments. TL probably has the most hardcore audience so it is understandable that the majority of posts here are anti region locking, however the more casual viewer, which by the way is who Blizzard is trying to reach, supports region locking. Just because you have a certain opinion does not mean that a huge majority agrees with you.
We are discussing a very tight nuance.
I do not think, people even here on TL are against some welfare tournaments for weak foreign players, who do not manage to get to the larger ones. That is OK. We are not forced to watch them. We did even cheer for the WCS 2015 even with the player pool, it had.
More money - that is great!
More tournaments - even more great!
In fact, I somehow do not mind that much having 8 foreigners to BlizzCon. It can be funny to see 8 beat ups like Lilbow and compete, who lasts more minutes.
But there are the bad things: No more IEM in the quality, it had in the last years? Probably, we will still see, what they say. If IEM is not region locked, I will not be so disappointed.
Only 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. Very sad.
Only 8 Koreans going to BlizzCon? Fuck it! Together with only 2 seasons of GSL and SSL and region locking of the most foreign tournaments, this means, that not the best Koreans will come to BlizzCon, but it will be a lottery. You have 4 attempts per year to win or end up second in one of the 2 leagues in Korea. You make 4 times 3rd place? Sorry. You probably won't qualify for BlizzCon. It will be random, based on the actual form in the moment of the tournament. Not the long term performace, it is now. This is sad. For all the Korean players.
I would be fine with all the changes if two things happened: 1. IEM stays not region locked. But when you look at the current IEM, it seems, they will even cancel SC2 completely. 2. If the system took 16 best Koreans and 8 best foreigners to BlizzCon and mixes them somehow into groups, brackets, ... that would be awesome. Or 12 Koreans and 4 foreigners.
Alright fair enough.
I guess I am just more optimistic. At this point we don't really know how many Global events along the lines of IEM with open qualifiers will exist. I think there will still be a solid amount of IEM style tournaments to go around. As for GSL SSL I think the 6 tournaments last year was a bit too much, it really felt rushed and lessened the hype a bit with a GSL or SSL final every other week. I also think the more open Korean schedule will allow for more other tournaments along the lines of kespa cup and hot6six cup. Also these events will hopefully have blizzard money for larger prize pools as well as WCS points available.
I agree that the Champion slots for GSL and SSL seem a bit bad, as you pointed out seems to reward a single performance over consistency. However, lets be real, pretty much every GSL and SSL champ was in the top 8 of Blizzcon last year, so this year will not be that different in that respect. And overall in my opinion the benefits of the system in respects to growing the foreign scene, more money, and greater overall support far outweighs concerns over a less than optimal Blizzcon system.
Well, when we saw Lilbow's appearance at BlizzCon, we thought, BlizzCon needs to change this system. And we felt sorry for all the foreign players. So, we've got what we wanted. BlizzCon is changing the system. More Lilbows is what we need! :-)
Initial thoughts on this, is that this is fucking awesome and will once again bring greatness to the scene. People will probably change my mind on this in the future
On December 18 2015 12:30 Nebuchad wrote: Depending on how many global tourneys there are this could look very similar to 2015 in terms of actual games' content. There is virtually no way IEM won't have global tourneys, DH and RedBull I'm not so sure (it would surprise me if RedBull had any, perhaps just one?)
There's pretty much no market now for the smaller LANs featuring Koreans (e.g. Gfinity), while out of all the DH / IEM / Red Bull events last year, there was a grand total of two events which had a prize pool of 50k necessary to qualify as a Global Event (IEM WC and DHW, while the rest were $25k).
Sure, ESL could divert funds used in WCS 2015 to cover global events in 2016, but it's unlikely that we'll match the total weekenders seen in 2015, let alone 2013/14. And whatever happens, it sure won't make up for two fewer starleagues.
My read was that Blizzard would also be ready to give the boost to global events. You're right that it's not actually written so I was wrong, but I would be surprised if this wasn't the case.
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
No, there is not a "large percentage of fans who support region locking". But there are some for sure, e.g. all the non- Korean players. We will have a "Division A" and "Division B". Different levels of competition, but the same money. The Division A players will play among themselves and will still be great players. The division B players will play among themselves and ... (through some miracle?) will soon reach the level of the Division A players?
I understand the enthusiasm of all the western players - if someone told me, my salary will be doubled, tripled, quadrupled, I would be also enthusiastic and would promise, I will work twice harder. Will I?
Alright, very fair. I guess I am bit more op You do not know the number of fans who support region locking any more than I do, browsing reddit and TL I saw many people who posted positive comments. TL probably has the most hardcore audience so it is understandable that the majority of posts here are anti region locking, however the more casual viewer, which by the way is who Blizzard is trying to reach, supports region locking. Just because you have a certain opinion does not mean that a huge majority agrees with you.
We are discussing a very tight nuance.
I do not think, people even here on TL are against some welfare tournaments for weak foreign players, who do not manage to get to the larger ones. That is OK. We are not forced to watch them. We did even cheer for the WCS 2015 even with the player pool, it had.
More money - that is great!
More tournaments - even more great!
In fact, I somehow do not mind that much having 8 foreigners to BlizzCon. It can be funny to see 8 beat ups like Lilbow and compete, who lasts more minutes.
But there are the bad things: No more IEM in the quality, it had in the last years? Probably, we will still see, what they say. If IEM is not region locked, I will not be so disappointed.
Only 2 seasons of GSL / SSL. Very sad.
Only 8 Koreans going to BlizzCon? Fuck it! Together with only 2 seasons of GSL and SSL and region locking of the most foreign tournaments, this means, that not the best Koreans will come to BlizzCon, but it will be a lottery. You have 4 attempts per year to win or end up second in one of the 2 leagues in Korea. You make 4 times 3rd place? Sorry. You probably won't qualify for BlizzCon. It will be random, based on the actual form in the moment of the tournament. Not the long term performace, it is now. This is sad. For all the Korean players.
I would be fine with all the changes if two things happened: 1. IEM stays not region locked. But when you look at the current IEM, it seems, they will even cancel SC2 completely. 2. If the system took 16 best Koreans and 8 best foreigners to BlizzCon and mixes them somehow into groups, brackets, ... that would be awesome. Or 12 Koreans and 4 foreigners.
Alright fair enough.
I guess I am just more optimistic. At this point we don't really know how many Global events along the lines of IEM with open qualifiers will exist. I think there will still be a solid amount of IEM style tournaments to go around. As for GSL SSL I think the 6 tournaments last year was a bit too much, it really felt rushed and lessened the hype a bit with a GSL or SSL final every other week. I also think the more open Korean schedule will allow for more other tournaments along the lines of kespa cup and hot6six cup. Also these events will hopefully have blizzard money for larger prize pools as well as WCS points available.
I agree that the Champion slots for GSL and SSL seem a bit bad, as you pointed out seems to reward a single performance over consistency. However, lets be real, pretty much every GSL and SSL champ was in the top 8 of Blizzcon last year, so this year will not be that different in that respect. And overall in my opinion the benefits of the system in respects to growing the foreign scene, more money, and greater overall support far outweighs concerns over a less than optimal Blizzcon system.
Just a slight disagreement. 6 tournaments of GSL / SSL per year were not too much. They would be enough, if they were not run at the same time. This way, it was a stupidly packed month with both competitions and then a looong wait for the next season. If they splitted the current ones into the system winter - spring - summer - autumn, it would make it somehow OK. But if it will be run in the current system of January x 2, then 5 months nothing and then July x 2, that is fucking bad. We can only hope for still some hot6ix and kespa cups ...
I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
New Proleague format? Any info that it will be changed? Well, now, after GSL / SSL becoming more a random thing (today both sOs and Life out of their 25% chance for qualifying to BlizzCon), Proleague might be the only thing in the world to watch (if IEM becomes region locked).
On December 18 2015 13:06 Cele wrote: interesting changes. not sure if i like them..
we have unrelated reasons to like them.
so what are yours? i didnt even say why i like or dislike em ^^
less GSL means more use of afreeca studio for BW content like the NSL. Although I'm not sure if a deal has been made between kespa and afreeca on broadcasting rights for proleague, can't expect SPOTV to do both proleague LCK and other LoL content on their own, after all even the LoL stuff is shared with OGN, maybe the same can be done for SC2, then again what do I know, things rarely go as I say they do.
On December 18 2015 12:47 Die4Ever wrote: Can anyone tell me how the players qualify for the WCS Circuit Championships? All it says is that they come from the WCS Regional Challengers...
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
If there is a Proleague next year. Shouldn't we have heard something about it yet, or is KeSPA hopping on the "delay your announcement for as long as humanly possible" train
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
If there is a Proleague next year. Shouldn't we have heard something about it yet, or is KeSPA hopping on the "delay your announcement for as long as humanly possible" train
you must not know kespa, I won't be surprised if they announced proleague a week before they start the season.
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
If there is a Proleague next year. Shouldn't we have heard something about it yet, or is KeSPA hopping on the "delay your announcement for as long as humanly possible" train
you must not know kespa, I won't be surprised if they announced proleague a week before they start the season.
still better than Blizzard announcing this after qualifications have already started lol
On December 18 2015 13:06 Cele wrote: interesting changes. not sure if i like them..
we have unrelated reasons to like them.
so what are yours? i didnt even say why i like or dislike em ^^
less GSL means more use of afreeca studio for BW content like the NSL. Although I'm not sure if a deal has been made between kespa and afreeca on broadcasting rights for proleague, can't expect SPOTV to do both proleague LCK and other LoL content on their own, after all even the LoL stuff is shared with OGN, maybe the same can be done for SC2, then again what do I know, things rarely go as I say they do.
yeah interesting. But then im not sure if we would have more BW if there was more studio time. I think the bigger issue is actually sponsorship. With SSL being discontinued by SBENU's dwindling ineterst in the format, (acc to Sonic's statement) that seems to be more of a problem to me. Anyways, more studio space won't hinder BW, that's for sure.
Sidenote: It's really weird how this Sc2 <-> interaction works out often these days. And i don't mean game bashing in the forums. It's just in the korean market, where we all turn our eyes too, both games actually struggle for the same ressources in parts. It's the same discussion with sponsors and players really. SBENU dropping BW is good for Sc2 as they will focus more time/money there (even more on LoL im sure) and likewise BW fans are often not too sad about Flash's retirement, given the higher likelyhood of him streaming on afreeca soon. A weird interaction really, but im getting of topic :>
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
If there is a Proleague next year. Shouldn't we have heard something about it yet, or is KeSPA hopping on the "delay your announcement for as long as humanly possible" train
It's already been announced, and it's going to start in January.
I get what they're trying to do but I don't think this is going to change the viewership at all, and IMO - might drop it. I haven't seen any evidence for viewership going up when foreigners are involved. ONLY if the foreigners are competitive but I don't know how this system promotes that.
On December 18 2015 13:06 Cele wrote: interesting changes. not sure if i like them..
we have unrelated reasons to like them.
so what are yours? i didnt even say why i like or dislike em ^^
less GSL means more use of afreeca studio for BW content like the NSL. Although I'm not sure if a deal has been made between kespa and afreeca on broadcasting rights for proleague, can't expect SPOTV to do both proleague LCK and other LoL content on their own, after all even the LoL stuff is shared with OGN, maybe the same can be done for SC2, then again what do I know, things rarely go as I say they do.
yeah interesting. But then im not sure if we would have more BW if there was more studio time. I think the bigger issue is actually sponsorship. With SSL being discontinued by SBENU's dwindling ineterst in the format, (acc to Sonic's statement) that seems to be more of a problem to me. Anyways, more studio space won't hinder BW, that's for sure.
Sidenote: It's really weird how this Sc2 <-> interaction works out often these days. And i don't mean game bashing in the forums. It's just in the korean market, where we all turn our eyes too, both games actually struggle for the same ressources in parts. It's the same discussion with sponsors and players really. SBENU dropping BW is good for Sc2 as they will focus more time/money there (even more on LoL im sure) and likewise BW fans are often not too sad about Flash's retirement, given the higher likelyhood of him streaming on afreeca soon. A weird interaction really, but im getting of topic :>
well having the studio open to them helps a lot, means that acquiring sponsorship doesn't become their primary concern it makes it their only one, I have no doubts in YellOw's ability to get sponsors anyway.
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
If there is a Proleague next year. Shouldn't we have heard something about it yet, or is KeSPA hopping on the "delay your announcement for as long as humanly possible" train
It's already been announced, and it's going to start in January.
I have absolutely no interest in watching foreigners compete. I was okay with having 1 foreigner only tournament but this is ridicolous. The amount of sc2 I can watch will be significantly lower than last year. If blizzards goal is to kill the sc2 scene they are on a good way. Do they even care about korean pro players?
On December 18 2015 13:53 Chaggi wrote: I get what they're trying to do but I don't think this is going to change the viewership at all, and IMO - might drop it. I haven't seen any evidence for viewership going up when foreigners are involved. ONLY if the foreigners are competitive but I don't know how this system promotes that.
Think of all the biggest events in Starcraft history. I'm sure that if IPL5 was a 72man NA open bracket it would've generated the same excitement and viewership, and that DRG, MMA and SlayerS were certainly not the big draws of MLGs in time gone by.
The worst thing about this is the utter hypocrisy of the common theme that this will "provide more opportunities to up and coming players around the world". It does; while also shafting the Korean scene. Essentially, fuck up your qualifiers and you're screwed for months until Season 2 rolls by. If you're not Code S, you're nothing. Eye opening given the fact that at the end of HotS the top 32 players in the world were all Korean
On December 18 2015 13:53 Chaggi wrote: I get what they're trying to do but I don't think this is going to change the viewership at all, and IMO - might drop it. I haven't seen any evidence for viewership going up when foreigners are involved. ONLY if the foreigners are competitive but I don't know how this system promotes that.
Think of all the biggest events in Starcraft history. I'm sure that if IPL5 was a 72man NA open bracket it would've generated the same excitement and viewership, and that DRG, MMA and SlayerS were certainly not the big draws of MLGs in time gone by.
The worst thing about this is the utter hypocrisy of the common theme that this will "provide more opportunities to up and coming players around the world". It does; while also shafting the Korean scene. Essentially, fuck up your qualifiers and you're screwed for months until Season 2 rolls by. If you're not Code S, you're nothing. Eye opening given the fact that at the end of HotS the top 32 players in the world were all Korean
and before for foreigners it was basically "well you don't have the structure or support that korea has so your fucked"
PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
On December 18 2015 13:53 Chaggi wrote: I get what they're trying to do but I don't think this is going to change the viewership at all, and IMO - might drop it. I haven't seen any evidence for viewership going up when foreigners are involved. ONLY if the foreigners are competitive but I don't know how this system promotes that.
Think of all the biggest events in Starcraft history. I'm sure that if IPL5 was a 72man NA open bracket it would've generated the same excitement and viewership, and that DRG, MMA and SlayerS were certainly not the big draws of MLGs in time gone by.
The worst thing about this is the utter hypocrisy of the common theme that this will "provide more opportunities to up and coming players around the world". It does; while also shafting the Korean scene. Essentially, fuck up your qualifiers and you're screwed for months until Season 2 rolls by. If you're not Code S, you're nothing. Eye opening given the fact that at the end of HotS the top 32 players in the world were all Korean
Yeah all the biggest events were with foreigners that were competitive. Sucks that someone only has to be top 8 in the foreign scene pull a Lilbow and cash out.
honestly I think the most successful attempt at making foreigners better is when GSL had the foreigner team house and seeded in foreigners through MLG and they got to live there in the house together for cheap (or free?)
If they wanted to go with 8+8 for blizzcon they could have done that with the old system. But why all of that other stuff? It sounds a lot like an emergency solution after ESL dropped the production and I don't see any advantage for the WCS circuit system over the old, regular WCS system. I guess it could be good for foreigner exposure, but then again, isn't it a terrible blow for their trainings conditions if the Koreans never travel?
On December 18 2015 14:58 Big J wrote: If they wanted to go with 8+8 for blizzcon they could have done that with the old system. But why all of that other stuff? It sounds a lot like an emergency solution after ESL dropped the production and I don't see any advantage for the WCS circuit system over the old, regular WCS system. I guess it could be good for foreigner exposure, but then again, isn't it a terrible blow for their trainings conditions if the Koreans never travel?
Well the old system had these long drawn out tournaments, which perhaps didn't have the same intensinsity. Personally I would prefer a league system where 16 players per region end up playing regularly every other week for 2 months --> Playoffs.
This makes it somewhat easy to follow the "story" of the players as you can see their ranking in the league and watch them regularly in meaningful games.
The top players for each regional league then meet in a big global tournament every 3rd/4th month or so which gives some type of cross-regional play.
And below that there should ofc be some type of qualification system w
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
So 1 less GSL/SSL per year, no point in watching IEM/DH any more. At least playoffs is 2 Koreans in each group so WCS Finals are worth watching. Oh well, at least there'll be more time to watch Proleague.
On December 18 2015 15:18 Lorch wrote: So 1 less GSL/SSL per year, no point in watching IEM/DH any more. At least playoffs is 2 Koreans in each group so WCS Finals are worth watching. Oh well, at least there'll be more time to watch Proleague.
Why's that? DH/IEM could be WCS Global Events where Koreans would attend.
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
Plus I am screwed as I was always cheering for the foreigners / underdogs in the tournaments, never for the TOP 1 player (herO) or the actual favorite (Inno). I was always cheering for sOs, Fantasy, Rogue ... I would even cheer for Polt and Hydra if they were not qualified though welfare. But now, BlizzCon will be boring from the point of cheering as I do not want to cheer for the TOP Koreans and I can't cheer for Welfare qualified ones ...
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
If there is a Proleague next year. Shouldn't we have heard something about it yet, or is KeSPA hopping on the "delay your announcement for as long as humanly possible" train
It's already been announced, and it's going to start in January.
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
If there is a Proleague next year. Shouldn't we have heard something about it yet, or is KeSPA hopping on the "delay your announcement for as long as humanly possible" train
It's already been announced, and it's going to start in January.
If blizzard wants to help the foreigner scene they should just invest money into foreigner team houses. So they can hire korean coaches and foreigner players will have the same level of training than korean players. It's pretty weird to me that they create some artificial differences between koreans and the rest of the world for tournaments.
IMO - Blizzard / whoever should've spent some money for regional tournaments, GSL style if possible to get teams to invest in team houses and have the top placers duke it out for a country-wide WCS and then seed it like how the world cup is seeded. Promote LAN cafe's or something to get more in person viewership and support. Then have the players play out in a the big tournament like how it was last year. The best players still get rewarded, the worse players can live in team houses and improve, but that's most likely too much of a monetary commitment from everyone to be truly viable.
Blizzard could also introduce some real welfare system for all foreign progamers that would grant them some money in case, they are not able to win any prize money on any tournament during a given month. Some kind of un(employment)winning insurance.
I am sure, this would motivate them to train harder and harder and it would attract many new people to become SC2 progamers! This will help to build up a healthier foreign SC2 gaming scene. Blizzard, please, think about it! If you introduce this, I promise, even I will become an SC2 progamer!
Well i guess you can compare this to buying an excuse...
Jokes aside, those chamges dont look very appealing to the current situation. Only 2seasons of gsl amd ssl suck, eventhough i like that cross finals thing.still believe koreans should be allowed to play on weekenders. Im fine with the WCS region lock but weekenders should be open to anyone...
On December 18 2015 06:57 WrathSCII wrote: I just read it...
I have no idea what or how this system even works...
yea it's like they just kept adding complexity without simplifying anything at all
i think it was pretty simple
Then please explain it. Is much different than the rumor week ago? What exactly the good side of it?
I just read it once and I'm sure someone will make some infographic or something, but simply it looks like this:
For non-Koreans It is called the WCS Circuit for non-koreans
There are 3 WCS Circuit Championships a year
There are 6 regions that make up the WCS Circuit and each region has a qualifier ($10k prize pool) to qualify for each Championship
People also qualify based on their Points
These Championships and their qualifiers are the equivalent to premier/challenger etc things that we've seen in the past, but they're gonna be live events with crowds. They're more like normal non-korean events, not drawn out leagues
In addition to these standard events for the Circuit, any major third party (IEM, DH, etc) SC2 tournament that pops up can ask to be put on the Circuit, which means it has to follow the region-locking and qualifier rules and live audience and commentators player booths etc that a Circuit event requires.
Third party SC2 tournaments can also ask to be Global events, which means they're for non-koreans and Koreans as well. Those are also for points and have their set of format requirements (must have qualifiers, must allocate spots for certain regions, etc) and event requirements (live play, booths, live commentators, crowd, etc)
Third party SC2 tournaments can also do whatever they want and they just won't count for WCS points
In the end, the 3 players who win circuit championships will essentially go to blizzcon (will actually go to the week-before-blizzcon Ro16 thing) and 5 other players who have the most points will fill out the rest of the 8 non-korean slots
----
for Koreans Pretty simple, they have 2 seasons of GSL and SSL each. The 4 champions go to the week-before-blizzcon thing. 4 highest points fill out the rest of their remaining slots.
They can of course attend WCS Global events as previously mentioned to earn additional points
They can also become a resident with a proper visa and essentially become a non-Korean and do the WCS Circuit instead (non-Koreans also have the option of doing GSL/SSL themselves if they'd rather not do WCS Circuit, btw)
Oh and the winners of GSL team up against the winners of SSL to do some crazy archon mode match for $25k
edit: Oh and Blizzard is throwing a ton of financial support in for third party tournaments that do decide to be a WCS event (paying for player travel expenses, adding money to prize pool)
i did not read all 23 pages. but doesnt this mean, that the total price-money decreases? iem finals alone had 100.000 bucks on the line. now instead of wcs and the other events it is put together. has anyone calculated that?
aaaand. still no points for being top on the ladder. could have reduced the barcode problem
Something I just thought of that REALLY frightens me...
There's essentially 4 options for Koreans to secure a qualification, GSL1, SSL1, GSL2, SSL2. With the current state of (no-) balance and an extremely new game (gimmicks can win), we're essentially wasting half our Korean Blizzcon spots on players that abuse the new mechanics the best and with poor balancing to boot (Z>>P>>>>>>>>>>T).
In other words, we're getting 8 dodo's"Foreigner Sparkles Of Hope" into WCS Global, 4 potential flukes, and 4 competitors.
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
The whole foreign player plus caster scene is only here for the cash. Skillwise they have never been relevant (if they all could just stop to use the title "Progamer").
I can only imagine how hard they have been trying to sway Blizz to their side. I just hope the viewer numbers will crash for Dreamhack and IEM, at least i will contribute to that.
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
The whole foreign player plus caster scene is only here for the cash. Skillwise they have never been relevant (if they all could just stop to use the title "Progamer").
I can only imagine how hard they have been trying to sway Blizz to their side. I just hope the viewer numbers will crash for Dreamhack and IEM, at least i will contribute to that.
From the bright side, more time to study for finals and next year there will be even fewer tournaments, which makes getting my masters degree easier.
Then I'll be a master at International Economics & Starcraft ^^ #lifegoals
In all seriousness, the reasoning foreign 'pro'gamers use to defend their title, is saying they 'earn their living with gaming'. TIL; WinterSC, Fenner and Lowko are professional foreigner in Starcraft II.
That being said, without bringing a conspiracy theory into the equation, it is only logical that the foreigners (who speak English and have Blizzard contacts) manage to pull the money further and further into their own direction through WCS. It's completely sensable from both Blizz emloyees and the gamers alike.
My issue is, people keep refering to tournaments like HSC and NationWars as to why Foreign tournaments are good. Builds a profile, personality, lalalalal. Those tournaments are incredible one-offs. The banter is fun, the casting is entertaining and less professional.
The skilllevel on the other hand is horrific. By those measurements, I would consider myself a valid Semi-pro because I am onehundred percent certain I would not lose a BO7 4-0 against most of those 'progamers'. FYI I AM A REALLY BAD STARCRAFT PLAYER.
I cannot imagine the viewer numbers going up after this farce. I for one will not watch Foreign only tournaments. Too much drama, too little skill. And I'm not alone.
On December 18 2015 13:20 SuperHofmann wrote: I don't agree with "Setting up an epic year in StarCraft II ESports". I think that - Starcraft II + Esporst + Less Tournaments in Korea = Less Epic - .
My hopes are in a new and more epic Proleague format, possible with less 1vs1 competition
It took me so long looking at Esporst being confused like..... something is wrong with it, does capitalizing the E over the S make it look that different.
30 seconds later I noticed you switched the s and t. FML.
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
The whole foreign player plus caster scene is only here for the cash. Skillwise they have never been relevant (if they all could just stop to use the title "Progamer").
I can only imagine how hard they have been trying to sway Blizz to their side. I just hope the viewer numbers will crash for Dreamhack and IEM, at least i will contribute to that.
From the bright side, more time to study for finals and next year there will be even fewer tournaments, which makes getting my masters degree easier.
Then I'll be a master at International Economics & Starcraft ^^ #lifegoals
In all seriousness, the reasoning foreign 'pro'gamers use to defend their title, is saying they 'earn their living with gaming'. TIL; WinterSC, Fenner and Lowko are professional foreigner in Starcraft II.
That being said, without bringing a conspiracy theory into the equation, it is only logical that the foreigners (who speak English and have Blizzard contacts) manage to pull the money further and further into their own direction through WCS. It's completely sensable from both Blizz emloyees and the gamers alike.
My issue is, people keep refering to tournaments like HSC and NationWars as to why Foreign tournaments are good. Builds a profile, personality, lalalalal. Those tournaments are incredible one-offs. The banter is fun, the casting is entertaining and less professional.
The skilllevel on the other hand is horrific. By those measurements, I would consider myself a valid Semi-pro because I am onehundred percent certain I would not lose a BO7 4-0 against most of those 'progamers'. FYI I AM A REALLY BAD STARCRAFT PLAYER.
I cannot imagine the viewer numbers going up after this farce. I for one will not watch Foreign only tournaments. Too much drama, too little skill. And I'm not alone.
I guess the additional study time will come in handy for my oral Electrodynamics II and QM II exams next year. Thx Blizz and foreign e-celebrities for helping me focus on uni!
On December 18 2015 06:52 Die4Ever wrote: I already bought tickets for Dreamhack Austin, they'd better have koreans there
Pretty sure this entitles you to a refund because they cannot deliver on the service you rightfully expected to receive. Especially in 'MURICA there is a case to be made for such a thing.
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
The whole foreign player plus caster scene is only here for the cash. Skillwise they have never been relevant (if they all could just stop to use the title "Progamer").
I can only imagine how hard they have been trying to sway Blizz to their side. I just hope the viewer numbers will crash for Dreamhack and IEM, at least i will contribute to that.
From the bright side, more time to study for finals and next year there will be even fewer tournaments, which makes getting my masters degree easier.
Then I'll be a master at International Economics & Starcraft ^^ #lifegoals
In all seriousness, the reasoning foreign 'pro'gamers use to defend their title, is saying they 'earn their living with gaming'. TIL; WinterSC, Fenner and Lowko are professional foreigner in Starcraft II.
That being said, without bringing a conspiracy theory into the equation, it is only logical that the foreigners (who speak English and have Blizzard contacts) manage to pull the money further and further into their own direction through WCS. It's completely sensable from both Blizz emloyees and the gamers alike.
My issue is, people keep refering to tournaments like HSC and NationWars as to why Foreign tournaments are good. Builds a profile, personality, lalalalal. Those tournaments are incredible one-offs. The banter is fun, the casting is entertaining and less professional.
The skilllevel on the other hand is horrific. By those measurements, I would consider myself a valid Semi-pro because I am onehundred percent certain I would not lose a BO7 4-0 against most of those 'progamers'. FYI I AM A REALLY BAD STARCRAFT PLAYER.
I cannot imagine the viewer numbers going up after this farce. I for one will not watch Foreign only tournaments. Too much drama, too little skill. And I'm not alone.
I guess the additional study time will come in handy for my oral Electrodynamics II and QM II exams next year. Thx Blizz and foreign e-celebrities for helping me focus on uni!
On December 18 2015 16:58 NyxNax wrote: "I hope the viewer numbers go down for Dreamhack and IEM.... I wont watch any foreign only tournaments".... Good lord...
It's the only way the people who care about the level of competition over the level of drama are getting a say in all this. I'm not sitting down to watch a tournament of my average ladder game take shape. Voting with my contribution to the viewer count here. If you disagree with that, go live in North Korea. I'd rather send a clear message of disapproval and not waste my time because random internet people are afraid it kills their precious episodes of How I Met Your Mother Gone Korprulu..
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
He's getting money thanks to Blizzard, without Welfare money ESL isn't doing anything SC2 related and Apollo is fucked. Of course he would write something like this. No one ever publicly criticized Blizzard. Day 9 was always overwhelmingly positive about Blizzard until he stopped doing SC2 "suddenly". Same applies for others. Everyone from these people always was positive and never said anything bad about Blizzard. The only exception is TB but he doesn't give a fuck about any big name in the industry. Stop being naive
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
He's getting money thanks to Blizzard, without Welfare money ESL isn't doing anything SC2 related and Apollo is fucked. Of course he would write something like this. No one ever publicly criticized Blizzard. Day 9 was always overwhelmingly positive about Blizzard until he stopped doing SC2 "suddenly". Same applies for others. Everyone from these people always was positive and never said anything bad about Blizzard. The only exception is TB but he doesn't give a fuck about any big name in the industry. Stop being naive
To throw a Dutch expression into the mix which perfectly fits to this: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
No clue whether that makes any sense to any non-Dutch-speaker ^^ + Show Spoiler +
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
He's getting money thanks to Blizzard, without Welfare money ESL isn't doing anything SC2 related and Apollo is fucked. Of course he would write something like this. No one ever publicly criticized Blizzard. Day 9 was always overwhelmingly positive about Blizzard until he stopped doing SC2 "suddenly". Same applies for others. Everyone from these people always was positive and never said anything bad about Blizzard. The only exception is TB but he doesn't give a fuck about any big name in the industry. Stop being naive
To throw a Dutch expression into the mix which perfectly fits to this: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
No clue whether that makes any sense to any non-Dutch-speaker ^^
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
He's getting money thanks to Blizzard, without Welfare money ESL isn't doing anything SC2 related and Apollo is fucked. Of course he would write something like this. No one ever publicly criticized Blizzard. Day 9 was always overwhelmingly positive about Blizzard until he stopped doing SC2 "suddenly". Same applies for others. Everyone from these people always was positive and never said anything bad about Blizzard. The only exception is TB but he doesn't give a fuck about any big name in the industry. Stop being naive
To throw a Dutch expression into the mix which perfectly fits to this: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
No clue whether that makes any sense to any non-Dutch-speaker ^^
On December 18 2015 16:41 Lappen.464 wrote: i did not read all 23 pages. but doesnt this mean, that the total price-money decreases? iem finals alone had 100.000 bucks on the line. now instead of wcs and the other events it is put together. has anyone calculated that?
aaaand. still no points for being top on the ladder. could have reduced the barcode problem
total WCS prizepool increases from 1.6 to 2 million. AND they can be boosted by Blizzard additional at any DH, IEM tournament. But the distribution for non-koreans looks more like winner gets more and remaining players get less money.
This thing is really convoluted, to the point that it took me like three readings of the requirements table to understand that a class of events for korean-foreigner competition still exists, so sorry for misleading comments earlier.
However, how much of these can we really expect, if there are supposed to be like 8 "WCS Circuit" events and these are done "with ESL and DH"? How many IEMs+DHs with SC2 are there going to be altogether, and how much is that number minus 8?
Did I understand it correctly that there will not be any week to week tournament for foreigners like WCS has been? That's the biggest shame for me as it drastically reduces the amount of play we'll see.
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
He's getting money thanks to Blizzard, without Welfare money ESL isn't doing anything SC2 related and Apollo is fucked. Of course he would write something like this. No one ever publicly criticized Blizzard. Day 9 was always overwhelmingly positive about Blizzard until he stopped doing SC2 "suddenly". Same applies for others. Everyone from these people always was positive and never said anything bad about Blizzard. The only exception is TB but he doesn't give a fuck about any big name in the industry. Stop being naive
To throw a Dutch expression into the mix which perfectly fits to this: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
No clue whether that makes any sense to any non-Dutch-speaker ^^ + Show Spoiler +
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
He's getting money thanks to Blizzard, without Welfare money ESL isn't doing anything SC2 related and Apollo is fucked. Of course he would write something like this. No one ever publicly criticized Blizzard. Day 9 was always overwhelmingly positive about Blizzard until he stopped doing SC2 "suddenly". Same applies for others. Everyone from these people always was positive and never said anything bad about Blizzard. The only exception is TB but he doesn't give a fuck about any big name in the industry. Stop being naive
To throw a Dutch expression into the mix which perfectly fits to this: Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
No clue whether that makes any sense to any non-Dutch-speaker ^^
Yeah we have that expression too
Thanks ^^
We have similar Sing the song of the one who's feeding you Which is exactly what Apollo's doing
On December 18 2015 17:30 opisska wrote: This thing is really convoluted, to the point that it took me like three readings of the requirements table to understand that a class of events for korean-foreigner competition still exists, so sorry for misleading comments earlier.
However, how much of these can we really expect, if there are supposed to be like 8 "WCS Circuit" events and these are done "with ESL and DH"? How many IEMs+DHs with SC2 are there going to be altogether, and how much is that number minus 8?
Summary:
KR 2 x GSL 2 x SSL 2 x End of Season SSL vs GSL events KeSPA Cup (unknown number) Hot6ix Cup mentioned in passing somewhere - unconfirmed
WCS Circuit (Foreigners only + visa'd Koreans) 3 x Season events (Winter / Spring / Summer) 8 x Circuit events (iirc it was Apollo who mentioned the total of 11 events, giving us 8 of these smaller events)
WCS Global (Foreigner / Korean mix) Excluding Global Finals, no events announced yet. No hint at total number of events, but given the prize pool required ($50k) and the fact that it's not as highly incentivised as WCS Circuit events by Blizzard, I can't see there being very many. It's almost guaranteed that there will be fewer of these than the total number of IEMs / DHs etc from 2015 given how the prize money breaks down.
On December 18 2015 17:37 Heartland wrote: Did I understand it correctly that there will not be any week to week tournament for foreigners like WCS has been? That's the biggest shame for me as it drastically reduces the amount of play we'll see.
Which means that the air time is free for some smaller local tourney. This was the biggest thing about WCS 2013. It was alway on the air so there were no free time slots.
It is really sad that we wont have the best 16 players at the highest staked tournament. If this keeps going on like that, we will have one player from each country one day...
On December 18 2015 17:37 Heartland wrote: Did I understand it correctly that there will not be any week to week tournament for foreigners like WCS has been? That's the biggest shame for me as it drastically reduces the amount of play we'll see.
Which means that the air time is free for some smaller local tourney. This was the biggest thing about WCS 2013. It was alway on the air so there were no free time slots.
If I've understood it correctly, there will be regional challenger tournaments to qualify for the three seasonal events
On December 18 2015 17:46 graNite wrote: It is really sad that we wont have the best 16 players at the highest staked tournament. If this keeps going on like that, we will have one player from each country one day...
At least change the name from WCS World Championship Series to something that doesn't imply we're going to see high skill games there.
GSL/SSL Season 1 is completely skewed to gimmicky Z/P with current maps and balance, 8 spots are lost to WCS Welfare. Essentially, our 'world hampionship' may consist of 8 completely uncompetitive 'pro'gamers, up to 4 potential flukes, and 4 Season 2 performers. At least Korean Terrans got shafted bigtime with being having lost half the points for the Nov championship ALREADY last week.
On December 18 2015 16:58 NyxNax wrote: "I hope the viewer numbers go down for Dreamhack and IEM.... I wont watch any foreign only tournaments".... Good lord...
It's the only way the people who care about the level of competition over the level of drama are getting a say in all this. I'm not sitting down to watch a tournament of my average ladder game take shape. Voting with my contribution to the viewer count here. If you disagree with that, go live in North Korea. I'd rather send a clear message of disapproval and not waste my time because random internet people are afraid it kills their precious episodes of How I Met Your Mother Gone Korprulu..
On December 18 2015 16:58 NyxNax wrote: "I hope the viewer numbers go down for Dreamhack and IEM.... I wont watch any foreign only tournaments".... Good lord...
It's the only way the people who care about the level of competition over the level of drama are getting a say in all this. I'm not sitting down to watch a tournament of my average ladder game take shape. Voting with my contribution to the viewer count here. If you disagree with that, go live in North Korea. I'd rather send a clear message of disapproval and not waste my time because random internet people are afraid it kills their precious episodes of How I Met Your Mother Gone Korprulu..
WCS had higher skill level than DHs...
The best players from WCS, save Hydra and Polt, all went to various Dreamhacks. They all lost.
On December 18 2015 16:58 NyxNax wrote: "I hope the viewer numbers go down for Dreamhack and IEM.... I wont watch any foreign only tournaments".... Good lord...
It's the only way the people who care about the level of competition over the level of drama are getting a say in all this. I'm not sitting down to watch a tournament of my average ladder game take shape. Voting with my contribution to the viewer count here. If you disagree with that, go live in North Korea. I'd rather send a clear message of disapproval and not waste my time because random internet people are afraid it kills their precious episodes of How I Met Your Mother Gone Korprulu..
WCS had higher skill level than DHs...
WCS Korea, that is?
Pay more attention if you think the highest brackets of DH are of lower skill than the final brackets of WCS EUAM. Even considering the fact one is a 72 hr marathon.
On December 18 2015 17:56 TheOneAboveU wrote: What a bummer... less Korea events. T_T I really don't care about region-locked events, so mehhhhhh...
Make sure not to watch and tune in, make the viewercount vote for us.
I think the majority of the TL will tune in for Korean events only. But I could be wrong.
TL is only a small amount of full viewrr numbers though
TL is a vocal minority that cares about skill more than drama.
On the other hand, these are also the kind of people that have money to spend on products of sponsors. At least I do, and I know a number of others who do so. Compared to your average twitchchat dummy.
We'll see how it pans out. I can just speak for myself and say that I don't feel guilty if firms like DH/IEM stop with SC2 because their viewer numbers reflect the skill level - real fucking low. I'd be sad, but it's not my fault. This WCS Welfare farce is to blame for that.
On December 18 2015 14:48 Inflicted wrote: PartinG seems pretty screwed at this point Skipped SSL qualifier and now he can't play overseas or in Proleague. He only has one GSL tournament for the next 6 months... (oh there is KeSPA Cup but still)
1. PartinG is screwed and all those similar to him outside of Kespa are screwed. 2. TOP9-TOP12 Koreans are screwed, e.g. sOs, as he never won a GSL or SSL league and is great just in big international offline tournaments, which he will not be able to attend anymore. 3. All the second tier Koreans are screwed. In the past, they were beaten heavily in Proleague, but then they went to some DreamHack, won it and it gave them enough confidence to start performing in Korea as well. This is gone now.
I understand, that western players are happy about it, as they can have Ronaldo's and Messi's salary while being on the level of an average Spanish league player without the necessity to play against Ronaldo and Messi. Of course, in this case, they will never ever reach the level of Ronaldo and Messi. It is more probable, they will get the idea to establish "WCS Welfare player's Unions" and will negotiate with Blizzard every year higher prize pool for WCS Welfare Circuit, or they stop playing. Because it is them, Blizzard needs. Not Messi and Ronaldo. Right?
I mean he's an emoloyee its his job to support it.
But i did find it funny that on reddit he was saying how it was so bad when marinelord or whoever went out in wcs they'd have to wait a whole season to get another chance. Then in another comment he'd say that Korea tournaments were too crowded and dropping the amount of them was a good thing.
I am the only one who thinks that Blizzard boost can be dangerous at some point? Last tournament before blizzcon, 2 players are fighting about one blizzcon spot. If that tournament is without boost, player A is already qualified before that tournament. Blizzard should be very carefully in that case.
On December 18 2015 17:37 Heartland wrote: Did I understand it correctly that there will not be any week to week tournament for foreigners like WCS has been? That's the biggest shame for me as it drastically reduces the amount of play we'll see.
Which means that the air time is free for some smaller local tourney. This was the biggest thing about WCS 2013. It was alway on the air so there were no free time slots.
If I've understood it correctly, there will be regional challenger tournaments to qualify for the three seasonal events
Yeah, but will those be like four days run by Basetrade TV (or similar) or will they be five weeks casted by ESL (or similar)? That is, will we have a league or will we just have something that sort of comes up now and then with a lower production value than what WCS had. Because that's my main worry, really, not having more Starcraft to watch during weekdays.
On December 18 2015 17:37 Heartland wrote: Did I understand it correctly that there will not be any week to week tournament for foreigners like WCS has been? That's the biggest shame for me as it drastically reduces the amount of play we'll see.
Which means that the air time is free for some smaller local tourney. This was the biggest thing about WCS 2013. It was alway on the air so there were no free time slots.
If I've understood it correctly, there will be regional challenger tournaments to qualify for the three seasonal events
Yeah, but will those be like four days run by Basetrade TV (or similar) or will they be five weeks casted by ESL (or similar)? That is, will we have a league or will we just have something that sort of comes up now and then with a lower production value than what WCS had. Because that's my main worry, really, not having more Starcraft to watch during weekdays.
On December 18 2015 06:23 Heyoka wrote:
The WCS Regional Challenger events will be held prior to the WCS Circuit Championships. Each of the six regions will be represented with their own Regional Challenger event and seed directly into the upcoming WCS Circuit Championship.
As I see that lots of people here despise non-Koreans and giving an incentive for them to play, I think part of TL will turn elitist again and watch Koreans exclusively. Good old days, right?
I think that "Global Finals" have more meaning now as a "global" event. I'd argue with the prophecy of Koreans massively retiring leaving spots to play for the 15-20 of the best players that exist now for other reasons than military service or just moving on in life, but I guess we will see. I didn't hear massive negative feedback on WCG, when it existed back in the day. Plus, KeSPA Cup continues, and who knows what other announcements from tournament organizers we will hear.
As I wrote before, some people would be satisfied with Blizzard banning people from WCS that don't hold Korean citizenship. Imagine for a second, that Korea is different from other countries, people from "the West" are possibly having life outside of the game and the support that Korean players can have right now is unimaginable in Europe or Americas. If you believe that proposed system massively hurts the quality of games we're going to have, ignore foreign scene, focus on "the best" one or move to Korea and sacrifice your youth to play there. GSL, SSL, Proleague, KeSPA cups and who knows what else will still exist. Or try playing in the "charity" WCS Circuit to raise the level of competition
The main problem this system has is the fact that it was introduced too late, I understand that it can feel like taking away the opportunities from players. I mean Koreans. I believe that is for good. And again, we haven't heard all of the announcements regarding 2016, only the very base for WCS. Who knows for sure what "server qualifiers" mean?
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Losing to the best Korean at a time after beating Violet and MC, what a terrible result indeed!
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Losing to the best Korean at a time after beating Violet and MC, what a terrible result indeed!
Of course it's not a terrible result; that's why you are a patchzerg whose achievements mysteriously fell off... after late 2012.
So if I understand that correctly, IEMs and Dreamhacks won't feature Korea-based Koreans anymore? If so, bye guys, off to CS:GO it is. "You're a top level player? Do not attend our tournament please." You don't grow a scene by excluding the very best.
On December 18 2015 21:18 boxerfred wrote: So if I understand that correctly, IEMs and Dreamhacks won't feature Korea-based Koreans anymore? If so, bye guys, off to CS:GO it is. "You're a top level player? Do not attend our tournament please." You don't grow a scene by excluding the very best.
No.
WCS Global Events
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Global Events—7500
$50,000+ prize pool 16+ Players 7,500 points Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
Big tournaments will still have Koreans, but they will earn points reserved for Korea region. Basically there will be two leaderboards of players, Korean (also those who decide to live and play there) and non-Korean. If a Korean wins a tournament, it doesn't diminish the chances of a non-Korean going to Blizzcon. My guess is that at least IEMs will be of this type, since they tend to be more global (frequent visits to China, Singapore and such) than Dreamhack, but it still needs to be confirmed by them.
I wish people stopped forcing the idea of Blizzcon being an additional stop of GSL/SSL. It's really great incentive to play for a player that has no practice environment compared to Koreans and doesn't sacrifice their life in 100% to a hobby, that has no social acceptance and will lead him nowhere after the "retirement", if they decide to leave the industry. You'll still have 8 players from Korea, so if Koreans are more worthy of being called a player than non-Koreans and the "unworthy" will have no chance, there still will be live top 8 on WCS World Finals as it was this year. And it was great.
On December 18 2015 19:33 TheSayo182 wrote: It's time to bring back some foreign heroes and grown esports outside korea...good job blizzard
What made Stephano, Huk, Naniwa, Idra, Scarlett, Snute big? That they beat Mana, Nerchio or TLO? Or that Stephano competed with top Koreans, Naniwa won titles while slicing through a korean bracket, that Snute completely rekt herO, that Scarlett beat DRG while playing protoss, that Idra fought MMA?
On December 18 2015 21:18 boxerfred wrote: So if I understand that correctly, IEMs and Dreamhacks won't feature Korea-based Koreans anymore? If so, bye guys, off to CS:GO it is. "You're a top level player? Do not attend our tournament please." You don't grow a scene by excluding the very best.
WCS Global Events are the only opportunity before the WCS Global Playoffs to bring together players from the WCS Korea and WCS Circuit systems to battle for points. The goal is to have the highest level of StarCraft II play open to players from both standings. For more information on the WCS Global Event requirements, check out our Requirements blog.
WCS Global Events—7500
$50,000+ prize pool 16+ Players 7,500 points Players can earn points in the WCS Korea Standings or WCS Circuit Standings based on their eligibility for that standing.
Big tournaments will still have Koreans, but they will earn points reserved for Korea region. Basically there will be two leaderboards of players, Korean (also those who decide to live and play there) and non-Korean. If a Korean wins a tournament, it doesn't diminish the chances of a non-Korean going to Blizzcon. My guess is that at least IEMs will be of this type, since they tend to be more global (frequent visits to China, Singapore and such) than Dreamhack, but it still needs to be confirmed by them.
I wish people stopped forcing the idea of Blizzcon being an additional stop of GSL/SSL. It's really great incentive to play for a player that has no practice environment compared to Koreans and doesn't sacrifice their life in 100% to a hobby, that has no social acceptance and will lead him nowhere after the "retirement", if they decide to leave the industry. You'll still have 8 players from Korea, so if Koreans are more worthy of being called a player than non-Koreans and the "unworthy" will have no chance, there still will be live top 8 on WCS World Finals as it was this year. And it was great.
But, oh well. Bye!
Basically, I'll see how it plays out. If I see a IEM without koreans, I probably won't tune in. But that's just me.
I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Why Korea has so special position in blizzard esports? Like its silly that one country has special rules and regions in tournament when rest of the world is just "rest of the world". Korea is just a country among others, it doesnt matter if "best players are there", its just country among others. There is nothing like this in any other sports.
This nonsense needs to stop where koreans are seeeded from separate qualifiers, also the whole "foreigner" thing needs to go.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Wanting equal opportunities for all is racist, but region locking something to keep out a certain nation is PC or what? You want to support local players, talk to the teams to create practice houses that are actually used for practice and not "content creation", create strict practice times, etc. Some teams, like EG, had the opportunity to do this but they didn't. Why? You think Koreans living in team houses make zilions of dollars or something? They make almost nothing until they can reach a very high level.
Hum, i'm looking forward to it. I know its an easy target to criticize and i was one of the first to jump on the hate train at first but now i want to see how it develops.
On December 18 2015 21:59 cop354g wrote: Why Korea has so special position in blizzard esports? Like its silly that one country has special rules and regions in tournament when rest of the world is just "rest of the world". Korea is just a country among others, it doesnt matter if "best players are there", its just country among others. There is nothing like this in any other sports.
This nonsense needs to stop where koreans are seeeded from separate qualifiers, also the whole "foreigner" thing needs to go.
Exactly let's see how it goes. In the end i just want to watch Starcraft, and i dont mind if there aren't any Koreans in them. I love NationWars, they produced some exciting games, so i am not too worried about Blizzard's choice.
Furthermore the fact that they upped the Prize Pool is really a good thing for the scene. More prize money means more people maybe commmitting full-time, which hopefully means more exciting games!
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Wanting equal opportunities for all is racist, but region locking something to keep out a certain nation is PC or what?
That "racist" thing was sort of my personal sense of humor, I probably should refrain from writing this. I should expect someone to catch that.
You want to support local players, talk to the teams to create practice houses that are actually used for practice and not "content creation", create strict practice times, etc.
I wish I had this kind of power. Maybe someday.
Some teams, like EG, had the opportunity to do this but they didn't. Why? You think Koreans living in team houses make zilions of dollars or something? They make almost nothing until they can reach a very high level.
I never said anything about money. I also hate the fact that opportunities like that are mostly ruined because of trying their best in pleasing sponsors, promoting their stuff and such. Why "the West" focuses on making money out of the game unlike Korea, where I feel they care more about the game itself (since they have government support), is a topic for entirely separate discussion I think.
Thanks. So korean Koreans will not play it. Only those foreign Koreans. That sucks for me. Watching grup stage of Worlds finals will be pointless ... I guess they want to make starcraft more popular outside Korea. But c'mon... there is nothing more interesting in SC2 than whatching top Korean beasts fighting. For me watching foreigners is not funny. Maybe only top foreigners at their best, when they fight even with good Korean players. But all the rest dont make the game entertaining. Just my opinion. What about you guys ?
I stopped watching starcraft because of only koreans playing. So i feel they did good with the changes. and then get excited for the crossed finals.Last blizzcon i didnt watch because of only koreans... no one to root for for me. But that how i like it foreigners vs koreans.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
On December 18 2015 22:42 boxerfred wrote: Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
On December 18 2015 11:40 SlammerIV wrote: Can people please stop trying to speak for the entire fanbase of starcraft! I am a huge Starcraft fan, I have watched almost every tournament since early 2013 and I am super excited and hyped for the new system blizzard is implementing. I respect the fact that many here on TL disagree but can we at least admit that there is at least a large percentage of StarCraft fans who support region locking.
I think we need to understand why Koreans are so good at starcraft, imo it is not because they work harder or are genetically superior, it is simply because they benefit from the infrastructure in Korea which allows new talent to get on a team, make some money, and actually make a living. Up until now very few non Korean players have had the money, practice, or infrastructure which enables a player to dedicate their lives to becoming the absolute best. The new system will provide a reason for players to actually put in the huge level of dedication required to reach the level of Korean players. I do not understand how people choose to ignore the simple economics of the situation. Why would someone put in the effort required when they are not going to receive any benefit. Now Blizzard is giving players a real shot at making a living off gaming.
Plenty of pros already meet the requirement you're setting of being entirely dependent on e-sports income.
Yet still, Koreans reign supreme. There is more at play here than the simple explanation you are offering.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other teams.
EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available?
If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it.
I think alot of people like me only watch matches if their country is involved. i only watch champions league if one of the teams has a player from my country. i dont have interest in barcalona or what so ever. So i believe this new system will be better. Like lolm they are the worst region but has the most money and viewers.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
Yes. The differences between Nerchio/Bly/Elazer are directly seeable compared to ByuL/Life/Dark. If you dont believe, make a blind tournament, where all playernames are completly hidden. Invite top koreans and foreigners. People will figure out very fast who is who.
People will just need to re-learn how to love watching non-Korean Starcraft. I imagine viewer counts will be low for a while, but definitely growth will be more visible.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
Yes. When i personally watch enough Starcraft i can generally tell by the kind of mistakes they make, the level of multitasking and play involved, etc.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Wanting equal opportunities for all is racist, but region locking something to keep out a certain nation is PC or what? You want to support local players, talk to the teams to create practice houses that are actually used for practice and not "content creation", create strict practice times, etc. Some teams, like EG, had the opportunity to do this but they didn't. Why? You think Koreans living in team houses make zilions of dollars or something? They make almost nothing until they can reach a very high level.
THIS
This exactly.
Blizzard is actively punishing the Koreans that actually practice most of their day and view progaming as a profession. Instead, we are now rewarding the foreigners who keep on whining and causing drama. There's 80K flat out (+ all regionlocked tournaments) going to foreigners simply on the basis of being foreigner instead of Korean.
It's so fucking 'racist'/stupid to ban Koreans based on being Korean.
I know of the tradition in Starcraft of Koreans being better, but they aren't simply born with the Starcraft gene. They work harder for it, they commit to it, they invest in it. That is why they are better.
It's such a disgrace I currently feel embarrassed to call this my favorite esport.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
On December 18 2015 08:55 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:52 Vindicare605 wrote:
On December 18 2015 08:38 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I still never understood why foreign tournaments being played by actual foreign players is seen as wellfare. It's the foreign scenes money that was flowing to Korean players, not the other way around.
The welfare comes from restricting players from competing just because they're Korean.
So Western players get to hide from the scary high competition in Korea behind Blizzard's curtain of welfare money.
What about the Thousands of players in Korea who are on the level of Western pros but aren't good enough to make KESPA rosters? Where is their charity tournament?
It's welfare because this kind of generosity is only being directed at Western players. They don't deserve more money just because of where they live. They should have to earn it by fair competiton. Restricting the competition based on region doesn't do that.
Meh to me the current situation is more like allowing Bayern Munich to win both the Champions League and the Europa League at the same time.
Actually, this is a great example and I believe, a good comparison. Champions league and the UEFA league. When I think, when did I last time watch the UEFA league? Since I had the possibility to watch Champions league, I stopped completely to watch the UEFA league. Unless there is MY team or a team from my country playing. And after my team was out, I neve watched it again. Why should I watch some second level Premier league team no. 4 playing some Spanish top 6 team? In the Champions league, I can watch Barcelona, Real, Paris SG, Bayern ... I am sure, every person will be watching his OWN team in UEFA. But not the other matches with other teams.
EDIT: actually, I even do not watch the UEFA matches from teams from my country. Just MY team. Why to watch the low level play when there is high level play available?
If Blizzard wanted to support SC2 foreign scene, they should do one more ban. They should forbid English casting of Korean leagues. Then, we all, who do not speak Koreans, would have to stop watching Korean tournaments and would be forced to watch the Welfare circuit. At the beginning, we would be angry, at the end, we would get used to it.
I think alot of people like me only watch matches if their country is involved. i only watch champions league if one of the teams has a player from my country. i dont have interest in barcalona or what so ever. So i believe this new system will be better. Like lolm they are the worst region but has the most money and viewers.
esports are considerably less nationalist on the basis of everybody being the same on the interwebz.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Wanting equal opportunities for all is racist, but region locking something to keep out a certain nation is PC or what? You want to support local players, talk to the teams to create practice houses that are actually used for practice and not "content creation", create strict practice times, etc. Some teams, like EG, had the opportunity to do this but they didn't. Why? You think Koreans living in team houses make zilions of dollars or something? They make almost nothing until they can reach a very high level.
THIS
This exactly.
Blizzard is actively punishing the Koreans that actually practice most of their day and view progaming as a profession. Instead, we are now rewarding the foreigners who keep on whining and causing drama. There's 80K flat out (+ all regionlocked tournaments) going to foreigners simply on the basis of being foreigner instead of Korean.
It's so fucking racist you could even attempt pressing charges against Blizzard for this with a slim chance of success.
It's such a disgrace I currently feel embarrassed to call this my favorite esport.
Press charges "with a slim chance of success"???
How deluded are you--there's no way you would win that.
On December 18 2015 23:55 ejozl wrote: People will just need to re-learn how to love watching non-Korean Starcraft. I imagine viewer counts will be low for a while, but definitely growth will be more visible.
I very much doubt it. Starcraft will never have the viewer counts like League, dota, hearthstone or CS regardless of foreigner or Korean dominated. It's simply not as accessible a game as those. If people think that viewership will rise to those levels they will be sadly mistaken. Because of those games accessibility, the numbers they have of an actual base of players that actually play the game is something that Starcraft can only dream of. More people watch those games simply because more people play them. Regardless of the changes that blizz makes to help foreigners, it still remains a hardcore RTS game that much fewer people are willing to play. Smaller player count will always equal a smaller viewer count.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Wanting equal opportunities for all is racist, but region locking something to keep out a certain nation is PC or what? You want to support local players, talk to the teams to create practice houses that are actually used for practice and not "content creation", create strict practice times, etc. Some teams, like EG, had the opportunity to do this but they didn't. Why? You think Koreans living in team houses make zilions of dollars or something? They make almost nothing until they can reach a very high level.
THIS
This exactly.
Blizzard is actively punishing the Koreans that actually practice most of their day and view progaming as a profession. Instead, we are now rewarding the foreigners who keep on whining and causing drama. There's 80K flat out (+ all regionlocked tournaments) going to foreigners simply on the basis of being foreigner instead of Korean.
It's so fucking racist you could even attempt pressing charges against Blizzard for this with a slim chance of success.
It's such a disgrace I currently feel embarrassed to call this my favorite esport.
Press charges "with a slim chance of success"???
How deluded are you--there's no way you would win that.
On December 18 2015 23:55 ejozl wrote: People will just need to re-learn how to love watching non-Korean Starcraft. I imagine viewer counts will be low for a while, but definitely growth will be more visible.
Or people just stop watching the farce that is WCS Welfare.
If you have 50% of the viewer count every single additional viewer represents twice as large a growth percentage!
Going from 5 viewers to 6 is a 20% increase, though I suppose going from 50K to 50K+1 is considerably healthier for the game despite the negligable growth, right?
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Wanting equal opportunities for all is racist, but region locking something to keep out a certain nation is PC or what? You want to support local players, talk to the teams to create practice houses that are actually used for practice and not "content creation", create strict practice times, etc. Some teams, like EG, had the opportunity to do this but they didn't. Why? You think Koreans living in team houses make zilions of dollars or something? They make almost nothing until they can reach a very high level.
THIS
This exactly.
Blizzard is actively punishing the Koreans that actually practice most of their day and view progaming as a profession. Instead, we are now rewarding the foreigners who keep on whining and causing drama. There's 80K flat out (+ all regionlocked tournaments) going to foreigners simply on the basis of being foreigner instead of Korean.
It's so fucking racist you could even attempt pressing charges against Blizzard for this with a slim chance of success.
It's such a disgrace I currently feel embarrassed to call this my favorite esport.
Press charges "with a slim chance of success"???
How deluded are you--there's no way you would win that.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
Yes, but now it's even more interesting because LOTV is even more demanding on multitasking and micro, so the difference between a GSL game and a WCS foreigner whatever it's called game should be even more visible.
I don't mean to hate so much on the system, but i don't think the skill gap can be closed unless there is a major change in how foreigners train. Ladder all day or when you feel like it, just isn't going to do it. So if the practice remains the same, then all we achieve is a welfare for being non Korean. I totally understand why players would be happy, i would to if i was one, but as fans i just don't see any positive.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
Yes, though that's wholly irrelevant in the first place.
If someone wants to see the best play, they want to see the best play--whether they can appreciate the minutiae of seeing the best is not necessary for their enjoyment. I am mediocre at chess and would not see the difference between two GMs playing and the best in the world playing, but I would tune in for the latter and not the former. You can't rationalize someone's fun.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
Yes, but now it's even more interesting because LOTV is even more demanding on multitasking and micro, so the difference between a GSL game and a WCS foreigner whatever it's called game should be even more visible.
I don't mean to hate so much on the system, but i don't think the skill gap can be closed unless there is a major change in how foreigners train. Ladder all day or when you feel like it, just isn't going to do it. So if the practice remains the same, then all we achieve is a welfare for being non Korean. I totally understand why players would be happy, i would to if i was one, but as fans i just don't see any positive.
Less live time for actual professional Starcraft makes real life easier to manage ?
On December 19 2015 00:41 Inflicted wrote: Also, graphic says WCS points and $$ awarded to Code A 24-48th but Season 1 has 60 players?
24-48th is probably taking into account the top 8 players from season 1 getting seeded into season 2 already.
On December 19 2015 00:50 klipik12 wrote: So now that GOM is dead... what does GSL stand for?
The G never stood for GOM, it stands for Global.
₩230,000,000 per season 27,200 points per season
This assumes they're only rewarding 24 players. Are they randomly choosing 24 for season 1 or awarding more points/money?
I'd assume they award it all 30 who go out in Code A season 1. Would be the biggest dick move if they didn't. But you're right, the pool doesn't add up to enough for season 1.
On December 18 2015 21:52 aQuaSC wrote: I'm sorry for being kinda passive aggressive, I'm just so tired of this elitist, negative and you could even say racist thinking. Korea Korea Korea Korea Korea. Support your local players, support creation of infrastructure, support opportunities for people to practice with Koreans - eventually there will be no need of region locking anything. Or for the sake of everyone stop watching foreigners, ignore them forever. Move to Korea or something.
I'm not aiming it at you, boxerfred. People are so negative nowadays
Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
Yes, but now it's even more interesting because LOTV is even more demanding on multitasking and micro, so the difference between a GSL game and a WCS foreigner whatever it's called game should be even more visible.
I don't mean to hate so much on the system, but i don't think the skill gap can be closed unless there is a major change in how foreigners train. Ladder all day or when you feel like it, just isn't going to do it. So if the practice remains the same, then all we achieve is a welfare for being non Korean. I totally understand why players would be happy, i would to if i was one, but as fans i just don't see any positive.
Less live time for actual professional Starcraft makes real life easier to manage ?
haha we all make more money by focusing more on our jobs. Well played Blizzard
I really hope these changes will improve things for everyone, but if the only real result is that the existing batch of non-Koreans make more money and the gap between them and Koreans remains the same, then it's going to be a shitstorm and some people might even start to dislike the foreigner player base. It's a dangerous thing IMO.
Blizzard isn't stifling the Korean scene. It has gotten smaller because there's less interest in it.
Blizzard is just sponsoring its own game. It's in Blizzard's interests to keep competition alive in NA and EU as well as KR. Asking Blizzard to focus its sponsorship on just KR is asking Blizzard to act against its own interests, which sounds more like welfare to me.
The money doesn't align with what's best for pure competition. That's true in every professional sport. If it's your hobby to unproductively bemoan this reality, then whatever, but this is a particularly unsuitable situation for you to protest because there will still be a ton of good SC2 competition in 2016.
edit: And it's no wonder that pros hardly ever post on TL anymore like they used to. A bunch of negative and unproductive people acting like they're trying to repel pros. You only ever get someone like Nerchio who happens to read it and can't resist trying to correct the nonsense from people with no experience and no idea what they're talking about. It used to be that the best non-Koreans could come here and get endless support from the fans, even if people were realistic and respectful about how much better some Koreans were than them. And now it's negativity that has gone so extreme "I won't cheer for a non-Korean even if he is better than Koreans" jesus.....
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: Blizzard isn't stifling the Korean scene. It has gotten smaller because there's less interest in it.
Blizzard is just sponsoring its own game. It's in Blizzard's interests to keep competition alive in NA and EU as well as KR. Asking Blizzard to focus its sponsorship on just KR is asking Blizzard to act against its own interests, which sounds more like welfare to me.
The money doesn't align with what's best for pure competition. That's true in every professional sport. If it's your hobby to unproductively bemoan this reality, then whatever, but this is a particularly unsuitable situation for you to protest because there will still be a ton of good SC2 competition in 2016.
I'd argue sc2 in korea has been getting bigger every year since 2013
On December 18 2015 22:42 boxerfred wrote: [quote] Thing is that it's not "Korea Korea Korea". It's just simply "I want to see the best quality of matches that there is." And that would be Koreans. That does not mean that I'd not tune in for HSC or Dreamhack or IEM. I simply think that splitting Korea and the world is the wrongest approach. As a foreign pro, you cannot increase your skill level past a certain point if you're not facing the best (i.e. Koreans).
Also, I'd be really, really careful with the "racist" road. Starcraft has a tradition of being "Korea" and "Foreigners". That's the split, coming from the skill gap between a player that comes from a country where SC2 is a huge cultural part (Korea) or a player from a country where SC2 is a very small scene (pretty much every single other country). If there is any racism involved, it's within the idea of a "region lock" (and even that is a constructed theory of racism and not "real" racism).
People dont train at tournaments, if you get defeated by korean in tournament you wont get anything out of that you couldnt get just by watching tournament streams. If people want non-koreans to be as good, there are whole different issues that needs to be solved.
Idea of "if koreans play with foreigners in tournaments, foreigners become better" is just nonsensical line of though.
They get better because they are forced to practice much harder to defeat them and win some money, so it's not so nonsensical. That is what made Naniwa, Huk, etc work their behinds off with the best possible practice. If there were no Koreans in international tournaments do you think they would have made all those sacrifices?
Then how come foreigners are still bad?
I'll probably catch a lot of shit for this but...Because very very few were willing to make the same sacrifices the Koreans do, by being full time pros and not just a hobby. IMO anyway.
I totally agree with you. I don't think these changes will do much in that regard either. In fact, with no more Koreans at weekend events, foreigners are now probably thinking that they don't even have to work very hard anymore for an even bigger prize pool which further facilitates the foreigner mediocrity.
I for one am only interested in watching the highest level Starcraft, and if those players came primarily from Saudi Arabia, Germany, Samoa, or in this case Korea doesn't make a difference to me whatsoever. I am a fan of the game itself and not people's skin color or where they come from.
Would you be able to tell how high-level particular game is if you didn't know what players were playing?
Yes, but now it's even more interesting because LOTV is even more demanding on multitasking and micro, so the difference between a GSL game and a WCS foreigner whatever it's called game should be even more visible.
I don't mean to hate so much on the system, but i don't think the skill gap can be closed unless there is a major change in how foreigners train. Ladder all day or when you feel like it, just isn't going to do it. So if the practice remains the same, then all we achieve is a welfare for being non Korean. I totally understand why players would be happy, i would to if i was one, but as fans i just don't see any positive.
Less live time for actual professional Starcraft makes real life easier to manage ?
haha we all make more money by focusing more on our jobs. Well played Blizzard
I really hope these changes will improve things for everyone, but if the only real result is that the existing batch of non-Koreans make more money and the gap between them and Koreans remains the same, then it's going to be a shitstorm and some people might even start to dislike the foreigner player base. It's a dangerous thing IMO.
So we can buy more skins! Well played!
Well, there is no real incentive for Foreigners to improve at a more rapid pace than they currently are on ladder. They'll never catch up with Koreans if their only clash is at WCS 2016 Slaughterhouse, where they all go out 3-0 bar a couple of succesful cheeses. Blizzard managed to reward the people who complain and don't commit to SC2 and to punish the players who commit to their game as a profession and not a hobby.
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: Blizzard isn't stifling the Korean scene. It has gotten smaller because there's less interest in it.
Blizzard is just sponsoring its own game. It's in Blizzard's interests to keep competition alive in NA and EU as well as KR. Asking Blizzard to focus its sponsorship on just KR is asking Blizzard to act against its own interests, which sounds more like welfare to me.
The money doesn't align with what's best for pure competition. That's true in every professional sport. If it's your hobby to unproductively bemoan this reality, then whatever, but this is a particularly unsuitable situation for you to protest because there will still be a ton of good SC2 competition in 2016.
Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level?
Correlation and causation pls?
At least don't use phrases like World Championship if you're actively eliminating over 90% of the contenders with random rules set in place to protect the worse players with the good contacts.
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: Blizzard isn't stifling the Korean scene. It has gotten smaller because there's less interest in it.
Blizzard is just sponsoring its own game. It's in Blizzard's interests to keep competition alive in NA and EU as well as KR. Asking Blizzard to focus its sponsorship on just KR is asking Blizzard to act against its own interests, which sounds more like welfare to me.
The money doesn't align with what's best for pure competition. That's true in every professional sport. If it's your hobby to unproductively bemoan this reality, then whatever, but this is a particularly unsuitable situation for you to protest because there will still be a ton of good SC2 competition in 2016.
Thanks, NonY, I pretty much agree here. Most (anecdotal) posters on this board seem to have a massive KR bias. Seems that hasn't (and won't) change.
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: Blizzard isn't stifling the Korean scene. It has gotten smaller because there's less interest in it.
Blizzard is just sponsoring its own game. It's in Blizzard's interests to keep competition alive in NA and EU as well as KR. Asking Blizzard to focus its sponsorship on just KR is asking Blizzard to act against its own interests, which sounds more like welfare to me.
The money doesn't align with what's best for pure competition. That's true in every professional sport. If it's your hobby to unproductively bemoan this reality, then whatever, but this is a particularly unsuitable situation for you to protest because there will still be a ton of good SC2 competition in 2016.
Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level?
Correlation and causation pls?
At least don't use phrases like World Championship if you're actively eliminating over 90% of the contenders with random rules set in place to protect the worse players with the good contacts.
There was a very long period of time when Korea didn't need money from the west at all. In fact, virtually every sponsor they had was a Korean company, most of which had no international presence. They weren't even trying to get any support from outside Korea. Sometimes Coke would sponsor, and of course Samsung is huge internationally, etc, but the sponsors were not giving money based on international appeal. When did you become a fan of SC as an esport? Like not during the first decade of this millennium? The money that Blizzard put into the Korean scene has been a drop in the bucket.
It's not growing because it's not the #1 game anymore. Why don't you direct your anger at the Korean League of Legends scene instead of being upset that Blizzard can't justify supporting solely the Korean scene?
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: Blizzard isn't stifling the Korean scene. It has gotten smaller because there's less interest in it.
Blizzard is just sponsoring its own game. It's in Blizzard's interests to keep competition alive in NA and EU as well as KR. Asking Blizzard to focus its sponsorship on just KR is asking Blizzard to act against its own interests, which sounds more like welfare to me.
The money doesn't align with what's best for pure competition. That's true in every professional sport. If it's your hobby to unproductively bemoan this reality, then whatever, but this is a particularly unsuitable situation for you to protest because there will still be a ton of good SC2 competition in 2016.
Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level?
Correlation and causation pls?
At least don't use phrases like World Championship if you're actively eliminating over 90% of the contenders with random rules set in place to protect the worse players with the good contacts.
There was a very long period of time when Korea didn't need money from the west at all. In fact, virtually every sponsor they had was a Korean company, most of which had no international presence. They weren't even trying to get any support from outside Korea. Sometimes Coke would sponsor, and of course Samsung is huge internationally, etc, but the sponsors were not giving money based on international appeal. When did you become a fan of SC as an esport? Like not during the first decade of this millennium? The money that Blizzard put into the Korean scene has been a drop in the bucket.
It's not growing because it's not the #1 game anymore. Why don't you direct your anger at the Korean League of Legends scene instead of being upset that Blizzard can't justify supporting solely the Korean scene?
But why do you say "support just the Korean scene"? I haven't read any post here demanding that. With all due respect (and i have a lot for you for the work and dedication with BW and even SC2), you are making a straw man argument.
I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists.
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste. .
I think you are overlooking a viewpoint that I think has been expressed here many times: that the 2016 setup does not look very promising for increasing the ability of non-Koreans to fight Koreans, because it will contribute to isolating these two groups of players. And that's a very important point in my opinion. I personally really like a lot of the "foreign" players. I enjoy seeing them on events and the HSC that is going on right now is an absolute delight. But the greatest thing is watching them go succesfully head-to-head with the mighty Korean overlords. And I am afraid that isolation is not the way to make that happen. I am not claiming that I know what IS the right way, it only seems to me that there is not much reason to think this is.
The angle of "who is it fair to give money" is misleaded in my opinion. It is Blizzard's money, they can literarly give it to anyone they want, it's not like they come from taxpayers or something. For me personally the main problem is the whole idea of people being separated by country, I don't like that in ANY walk of life and see enough of that shit everywhere. We here are the generation and the group of people who are supposed to be the most forward thinking, that's what you should get out of almost umlimited global communication that internet gives us. E-sports is our thing. We should be the first ones to abolish bad habits of the past society, such as borders and segregation of people.
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists.
I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition.
So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all.
But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness.
As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players.
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists.
I know this point has been said by opisska... but that's basically it.
I don't mind Blizzard investing in the foreign scene. I think it's great because they're putting money to what they want to create.
I don't think it'll do anything to improve viewership though. Right now, each region is going to be increasingly more isolated vs each other. That's a problem. It's clear that after some Koreans migrated over to EU, the competition in EU went up.
Viewers aren't going to want to watch Lilbow get stomped by Life again, because that's what's going to happen. There's absolutely no incentive for foreigners to practice for Blizzcon because the skill gap is simply too high, and we've seen what happened when that's the case. It makes bad games, it makes foreigners look bad, and it makes the scene look bad.
What needs to happen is for Blizzard to spend money to develop foreign players so that they can compete, toe to toe, with the best Koreans. There is nothing in this WCS that shows that. It will foster foreign competition amongst each other and possibly give better games, but they're always going to be lagging behind Korea. And when people who don't normally watch SC2, watch Blizzcon and see foreigners get absolutely rekt'd, who's going to want to watch that?
The best and most watched games have always been TOP foreigners vs TOP Koreans and foreigners either winning or putting up an amazing fight. It's why Stephano is so popular still. Why Idra somehow maintains a fan base bigger than the top 5 current foreigners. Why everyone remembers Scarlett vs Bomber. It's why Lilbow had such a popular WCS run.
I think you are overlooking a viewpoint that I think has been expressed here many times: that the 2016 setup does not look very promising for increasing the ability of non-Koreans to fight Koreans, because it will contribute to isolating these two groups of players.
Hmm it is the players choosing to isolate themselves. Anyone can connect to the Asian b.net server, get their MMR high and play 40 games a day against the best in the world. I'm sure some people live in places where the latency is so high that it becomes unplayable, but there are also plenty of places to live (without having to move to Korea) where it's fine. And players aren't prohibited from moving to Korea, anyway. And it's not just ladder -- non-Koreans have always been able to form relationships with Korean players and play customs and become "practice partners" for the Korean teams.
I'm not sure how the format is supposed to improve practice habits and policies. What could you have been hoping for with the format that would increase the chance of a non-Korean beating a Korean? It seems like such an abstract and indirect way to go about improving a player's skill level when more direct and effective methods are already available.
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists.
I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition.
So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all.
But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness.
As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players.
Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans?
There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen.
Koreans will always be on top. Any eSports they take seriously will become theirs and everything that isn't could be if they attempt to make it.
These racist attempts to undermine their strength through financial means is pathetic and irrelevant. Koreans are used to dealing with huge handicaps, they will prove themselves the better yet again.
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: And it's no wonder that pros hardly ever post on TL anymore like they used to. A bunch of negative and unproductive people acting like they're trying to repel pros. You only ever get someone like Nerchio who happens to read it and can't resist trying to correct the nonsense from people with no experience and no idea what they're talking about. It used to be that the best non-Koreans could come here and get endless support from the fans, even if people were realistic and respectful about how much better some Koreans were than them. And now it's negativity that has gone so extreme "I won't cheer for a non-Korean even if he is better than Koreans" jesus.....
God, this is so right. If I was a pro, I would read the attitude I see more often than not on TL.net (I don't follow reddit, so no idea if it's worse or better there) as: "Go eff yourself, either you travel to Korea and play there or I will always consider you inferior in skill and in terms of entertainment value and not worthy any money, so why don't you just quit playing". If playing SC2 was my job, in such circumstances it just wouldn't be much fun.
Also if all sports fans were like this, most national teams in basketball or football/soccer, not to mention national leagues, should just cease to operate.
I think it's kind of funny that Blizzard forces foreigners into Blizzcon/WCS-playoffs by giving them 8 spots and then put 2 koreans + 2 foreigners in each group to make it useless again. So WCS-finals is basically like last year expect it's only a ro8 bracket
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists.
I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition.
So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all.
But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness.
As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players.
Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans?
There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen.
Yeah, well...it's fairly clear to me that the message at this point is that "we will be the same and get more money" instead of "this will make us improve in order to compete with the best".
We will see how the fan base reacts to that in the coming year.
On December 19 2015 02:05 Incognoto wrote: 2 seasons a year for Korea only?
Koreans locked out from DH and IEM?
Fuck this shit, or?
They have Kespa tournaments, apparently another 3 which one is IEM Taipeh.
The prestige between a KeSPA Cup/ and IEM invitationnal with 8 players compare to a proper starleague is laughable. And we lost tons of series with the new SSL format (I quite like as it's clearly something different but it's less content).
I like the fact we get a better deal for foreigners, the real problem is that this deal is made by fucking over the koreans and not only those who only farmed oversea tournaments.
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists.
I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition.
So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all.
But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness.
As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players.
Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans?
There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen.
Yeah, well...it's fairly clear to me that the message at this point is that "we will be the same and get more money" instead of "this will make us improve in order to compete with the best".
We will see how the fan base reacts to that in the coming year.
The fan base is gonna enjoy seeing HuK's famous 8 gate 2 base, top 3 aggression over and over again
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists.
I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition.
So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all.
But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness.
As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players.
Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans?
There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen.
Yeah, well...it's fairly clear to me that the message at this point is that "we will be the same and get more money" instead of "this will make us improve in order to compete with the best".
We will see how the fan base reacts to that in the coming year.
The fan base is gonna enjoy seeing HuK's famous 8 gate 2 base, top 3 aggression over and over again
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
I disagree with people being rude to pros just to come of as important, as pros have literally their financial life on the line, unlike fans.
Having said that, the reason TL is a special forum IMO, is that it does not matter what your name is, but what the argument is. If you are Idra, or Incontrol or newPoster2000, it's all about the points you make and the arguments supporting them. When the arguments are flawed, you get exposed. It's not a place where known people get to be right because they are known. Pros are people too and they can be wrong, or misunderstood.
If some pros are afraid of posting because people might not agree with them then i'm sorry, i wish i could read more posts from personalities of SC2.
Nothing much to add to what I said in the earlier thread, so I'll summarize:
- I see absolutely no need in watching WCS Circuit. Welfare tournaments for players who can't compete with the best? No thanks.
- More money for Korea is good.
- Blizzcon will be an 8-man tournament between the best Koreans.
Overall this is an awful idea.
Edit: Also, so it's fine for foreigners to play in Korea, but not the other way around? Discrimination is seldom this blatant. I guess it won't matter that foreigners can play in Korea in the end, since they never deliver any results while there.
On December 19 2015 02:29 BlackCompany wrote: I think it's kind of funny that Blizzard forces foreigners into Blizzcon/WCS-playoffs by giving them 8 spots and then put 2 koreans + 2 foreigners in each group to make it useless again. So WCS-finals is basically like last year expect it's only a ro8 bracket
Yeah, I really don't see the point of inviting 8 foreigners... I'd much rather see 14-2 or 12-4. The winners of the last two WCS championships were the 14th seed! Imagine 2014 if Life (and MMA #9) wouldn't have qualified!!
@Incognoto We still get awesome SC2 out of KR - especially with some more prize money going there!
I think that the western scene benefits from this change. We already saw some events pass on sc2 last year. This ensures that these tournaments continue. We also get a more even playing field which should turn into better matches. "naama DH#10 winner never4get" still comes up in the local scene. I look forward to serral's first circuit win and it's going to be a big deal keeping sc2 going here.
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users.
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users.
I think Nerchio should be given some leeway in this respect - it's a guy that's actually like really, really good and he speaks his mind openly, which is a quality I appreciate. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to give a lot of shit about being "confronted" by internet nobodies like us, so ... whatever
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users.
I think Nerchio should be given some leeway in this respect - it's a guy that's actually like really, really good and he speaks his mind openly, which is a quality I appreciate. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to give a lot of shit about being "confronted" by internet nobodies like us, so ... whatever
Exactly! It's interesting how the only ones that tend to post are the ones that have actually worked super hard, at least at one point. I think they know that even if they are "confronted" people still have massive respect for their hard work and dedication, be it Nony, Nerchio, TLO, Idra in the past etc. The fact that they are willing to interact in this way is proof IMO that they are made of a different cloth then most.
I think it's fantastic that posters can have huge respect for a player and still contradict them on certain points. This is fantastic communication IMO.
On December 19 2015 01:11 SC2Toastie wrote: Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level?
people are bored of the genre and are moving on to other game types. this is why ATVI, Microsoft and EA have lowered the amount of resources devoted to the genre. Sigaty stated their next RTS game is 10+ years away. They've never taken a break this long from the genre that built their company.
Blizzard can not impact consumer tastes they can only react to them. They are reacting correctly. So is EA and Microsoft.
Blizzard makes billions in profit by making games and makes nothing by running competitive leagues.
On December 19 2015 01:11 SC2Toastie wrote: Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level?
people are bored of the genre and are moving on to other game types. this is why ATVI, Microsoft and EA have lowered the amount of resources devoted to the genre. Sigary stated their next RTS game is 10+ years away. They've never taken a break this long from the genre that built their company.
Blizzard can not impact consumer tastes they can only react to them. They are reacting correctly. So is EA and Microsoft.
Blizzard makes profit by making games not by running competitive leagues.
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
i'm just happy they made the best RTS games when the genre was in its prime earning years. i gave Blizzard money , but it was entirely voluntary. You could get everything they made by pirating it.
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote: Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash.
Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
On December 19 2015 03:32 Incognoto wrote: I'd love for a professional player to come to this thread and start coming up with bullshit reasons as to why Koreans should be discriminated against.
E: I swear, for me this is the death of the foreign scene. I don't give a SHIT about foreigners any longer. They are irrelevant to Starcraft now.
On December 18 2015 13:06 Cele wrote: interesting changes. not sure if i like them..
we have unrelated reasons to like them.
so what are yours? i didnt even say why i like or dislike em ^^
less GSL means more use of afreeca studio for BW content like the NSL. Although I'm not sure if a deal has been made between kespa and afreeca on broadcasting rights for proleague, can't expect SPOTV to do both proleague LCK and other LoL content on their own, after all even the LoL stuff is shared with OGN, maybe the same can be done for SC2, then again what do I know, things rarely go as I say they do.
yeah interesting. But then im not sure if we would have more BW if there was more studio time. I think the bigger issue is actually sponsorship. With SSL being discontinued by SBENU's dwindling ineterst in the format, (acc to Sonic's statement) that seems to be more of a problem to me. Anyways, more studio space won't hinder BW, that's for sure.
Sidenote: It's really weird how this Sc2 <-> interaction works out often these days. And i don't mean game bashing in the forums. It's just in the korean market, where we all turn our eyes too, both games actually struggle for the same ressources in parts. It's the same discussion with sponsors and players really. SBENU dropping BW is good for Sc2 as they will focus more time/money there (even more on LoL im sure) and likewise BW fans are often not too sad about Flash's retirement, given the higher likelyhood of him streaming on afreeca soon. A weird interaction really, but im getting of topic :>
well having the studio open to them helps a lot, means that acquiring sponsorship doesn't become their primary concern it makes it their only one, I have no doubts in YellOw's ability to get sponsors anyway.
YellOw hasn't been running Kongdoo in a long while, 서경종 is instead. Sbenu is in bad terms (financially, legally, and commercially) due to its low quality shoes and a court battle going on with its brand name patent. (there was another serious thing but I forgot) Verdict should be out in a few months but yeah Sbenu isn't doing so hot.
I would have much more preferred to lessen the prizepool and kept the number of gsl and ssl seasons... Money is a big thing for foreigners but not kespa players imo
Also, in an unrelated note, Rain has been appearing in HyuK's stream (playing Zerg BW), and HyuK said that Rain donated liver to his father. Would be nice if anyone could confirm in TL.
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote: Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash.
Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans.
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote: Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Yes. Buy, steal, overpay, kidnap ... Korean coaches. Let them built a "Korean style" training house in EU, NA, abywhere. Select the TOP promising players from a region, Serral, Snute, ShowTime, Ptit Drogo, Marinelord, NErchio ... Take them for free into this training house, after they sign, they will remain there for one month full time. PUSH THEM AND FORCE THEM to develop and train in the Korean style. Then, they will learn, what works, how, they not only learn that, they will LIVE IT. Not having nice team house with nice players with nice personalities as TL is. But seeing, how it is done in Korea. If good and successful, run another month with another group of players. And another, maybe with the same group from first month ... I believe, this would help.
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote: Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash.
Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans.
IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train...
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote: Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash.
Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans.
IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train...
But in helping players train better to be truly the best it does more to keep the scene alive than this welfare sham that is going to happen. Besides, Koreans or not, viewership will always be much smaller compared to other esports. The RTS genre and Starcraft in particular is simply not a very accessible game compared to others which leads to a much smaller playerbase. A game that isn't widely played isn't widely going to be watched. This isn't real life sports where the vast majority of people that watch don't really play that sport in real life.
So IMO blizz giving welfare money to a foreign scene that isn't likely to grow much beyond what it is plus discriminating against the games top players is a dumb mistake
I don't think blizzard's changes here amount to discrimination. Any support by blizzard of esports is charity, unless you want to argue it's for marketing purposes. And The stated goal of supporting the lagging foreign scene makes it reason-based rather than discriminatory (even if you disagree with the reasoning). Koreans have an advantage over foreigners owing to their existing infrastructure and single-city proximity. So one could argue blizzard's changes even the playing field.
On December 19 2015 05:34 Doodsmack wrote: I don't think blizzard's changes here amount to discrimination. Any support by blizzard of esports is charity, unless you want to argue it's for marketing purposes. And The stated goal of supporting the lagging foreign scene makes it reason-based rather than discriminatory (even if you disagree with the reasoning). Koreans have an advantage over foreigners owing to their existing infrastructure and single-city proximity. So one could argue blizzard's changes even the playing field.
Evens the playing field by making it easier for foreigners to win due to the absence of top level competition(Koreans)? Yes. Evens the playing field by evening out the skill gap? No. So in terms of skill the foreign scene will always be lagging behind, the minor leagues if you will, with the changes that blizzard is making.
The only way to even the skill gap is for foreigners to move to Seoul and assimilate with the language spoken there. Which is not going to happen due to money. But it would make sense for there to be monetary sustainability outside of Korea, which maybe is what blizzard's system accomplishes.
On December 19 2015 05:58 Doodsmack wrote: The only way to even the skill gap is for foreigners to move to Seoul and assimilate with the language spoken there. Which is not going to happen due to money. But it would make sense for there to be monetary sustainability outside of Korea, which maybe is what blizzard's system accomplishes.
I realize this is a large thread and reading through it all is unrealistic but that is what I and others have been saying. Instead of what blizz is doing now they should be investing money into a better training environment for foreigners so that you don't have to go to korea to be as good as the koreans. They could throw money at korean coaches until they agree to come here and help train foreigners, etc etc etc. Sustainability through foreigners actually getting better and having better morale instead of supporting the status quo aka mediocrity.
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote: Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash.
Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans.
IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train...
But in helping players train better to be truly the best it does more to keep the scene alive than this welfare sham that is going to happen. Besides, Koreans or not, viewership will always be much smaller compared to other esports. The RTS genre and Starcraft in particular is simply not a very accessible game compared to others which leads to a much smaller playerbase. A game that isn't widely played isn't widely going to be watched. This isn't real life sports where the vast majority of people that watch don't really play that sport in real life.
So IMO blizz giving welfare money to a foreign scene that isn't likely to grow much beyond what it is plus discriminating against the games top players is a dumb mistake
And how do Korean style training houses/teams help increase CASUAL viewer interest in sc2 so that DH keeps running tournaments?
Agree with everything or not, but Blizzard has done a lot to make LotV more interesting as an esport. Now they're putting money into keeping SC2 rolling at major events. If their gamble pays off and the viewer numbers increase we could see more sponsors coming back as well. If the scene becomes sustainable without Blizzard money we can look at what can be done for foreigners to improve..
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users.
And here you are again. Can´t believe you are still around. Hope you enjoy LotV as much as I do.
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote: Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash.
Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans.
IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train...
But in helping players train better to be truly the best it does more to keep the scene alive than this welfare sham that is going to happen. Besides, Koreans or not, viewership will always be much smaller compared to other esports. The RTS genre and Starcraft in particular is simply not a very accessible game compared to others which leads to a much smaller playerbase. A game that isn't widely played isn't widely going to be watched. This isn't real life sports where the vast majority of people that watch don't really play that sport in real life.
So IMO blizz giving welfare money to a foreign scene that isn't likely to grow much beyond what it is plus discriminating against the games top players is a dumb mistake
And how do Korean style training houses/teams help increase CASUAL viewer interest in sc2 so that DH keeps running tournaments?
Agree with everything or not, but Blizzard has done a lot to make LotV more interesting as an esport. Now they're putting money into keeping SC2 rolling at major events. If their gamble pays off and the viewer numbers increase we could see more sponsors coming back as well. If the scene becomes sustainable without Blizzard money we can look at what can be done for foreigners to improve..
Competetive Starcraft (RTS in general) is not a casual game and doesn't appeal to both casual viewers and casual players. Nothing Blizzard will do is gonna change that. It will never have the viewership numbers of LoL, CS, Hearthstone etc. A game that is NOT widely played will NOT have a wide viewership. This isn't like real sports where most fans don't play that game in real life. Catering to a demographic that is highly unlikely to grow that much beyond what it is doesn't make sense to me. The way the system is setup now is arguably sustainable already (with of course some changes here and there but not to the extent of these changes). LoL and CS are like American Football and soccer with their more broad appeal and huge viewer numbers. Starcraft is more like Tennis or boxing even with its more niche appeal and lower viewer numbers and that's not a bad thing.
IMO (which I am well aware is not that of a casual persons point of view) the storyline of the foreigner slaying the giants of Starcraft (koreans) is the best and most memorable storylines that ever happened in Starcraft. Thats what received the most hype and hype is what sells. Who really cares if average Joe foreigner vs average Joe foreigner beats each other. The foreigners slaying the koreans at their own game on an even playing ground would be the biggest thing ever for me.
I mean maybe its just me but I don't play LoL or CS or HS so I have no interest whatsoever in watching those games online. If I didn't play Starcraft I would have no interest in watching it as an Esport either. Increase people's interest in actually playing Starcraft and RTS games in general again and that is a sure fire way to increase viewership. This is all easier said than done of course and maybe the gaming world in general has just simply moved on from RTS games so that it will not be viable anymore in the future. Of course I could be totally wrong about all this but thats just IMO
What I'm saying is you can't achieve skill equality by bringing Korean coaches to foreign training houses. The only way to achieve skill equality is for foreigners to move to Seoul and learn korean, and practice with them full fledged. Which basically, is not going to happen. So might as well shoot for sustainability in all markets.
On December 19 2015 06:50 Doodsmack wrote: What I'm saying is you can't achieve skill equality by bringing Korean coaches to foreign training houses. The only way to achieve skill equality is for foreigners to move to Seoul and learn korean, and practice with them full fledged. Which basically, is not going to happen. So might as well shoot for sustainability in all markets.
And IMO you can if you had proper coaches with the right training environment and worked as hard as the Koreans do. Koreans aren't naturally better at Starcraft. It's their work ethic and training environment.
Just a question. So no money for foreign pros to immigrate to Korea and learn SC2 there, but money for korean pros to immigrate to foreign lands and play sc2 there? I dunno. Hopefully foreigners get their infrastructure set up enough so there will be improvement under a controlled setting by Blizzard. I think we all agree on one thing- that SC2 needs more viewership. What we are split on is 'more skill' vs 'hometown heroes' which will boost ratings? Will ratings ever boost?
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
Awww, someone's mad I pointed out the hypocrisy of a pro speaking negatively about Brood Lord-Infestor while himself being a prime beneficiary of it. Don't worry; keep being mad and staying the sensitive snowflake that you are.
Ok so I am going to comment on this but I only read first half of the thread. If it matters I am kind of old (29) and even when I played a lot and tried very hard I was never any higher than low masters. I followed WoL extremely closely for the first few years and it took up a lot of time in my life. Even flew many thousands of miles from Alaska where I live to attend a tourney live (The MLG:Orlando that HuK won) but slowly stopped watching and did not watch last 6 months or so of WoL or HotS at all really. (Maybe a couple GSL finals and a handful of random tournaments just because I would notice SC2 was high on Twitch viewers and checked why. I still followed other games.)
Thing is people act like it is one reason or the other, but the reasons I stopped watching were actually both the things mentioned. Game was bad/boring, and lack of competitive foreigners. Funny enough, I stopped playing because I lost interest in the pro scene not the other way around. I have nothing against Koreans, I have watched a LOT of GSL. Because I am in Alaska (Games start at ~midnight) and my work schedule most of the year it fit into my life a lot better than most Americans. Also I was invested enough in SC2 that the paywalls for vods were never a problem/issue for me. I liked watching Koreans, I liked watching even better when there was 1 or 2 foreigners there and I definitely cheered for them, but I appreciated watching the best players play. I also though Koreans coming to foreign tournaments made them better, but in the first half of Wings of Liberty pre-KeSPA they (foreigners) were competitive! Obviously even then the Koreans were better by far overall but you got to see upsets fairly often. Also, despite the fact that race complaints are ALWAYS present there was a fair amount of representaion for each race in most tourneys in the early years,
Now to present time, I had zero interest in LotV to be honest (dead game I thought) until a friend (who doesn't play multiplayer, never followed the scene, and I am sure has never even watched a single pro match, correspondingly hes abysmal at the game but that doesnt really matter he is super super casual) got me to buy the game because he wanted to try co-op missions with someone. Well I played some campaign, got slightly interested and just for the hell of it clicked find match on a 1v1. Went WTF I HAVE 12 SCVs, proceeded to make some rax pull some scvs and marine scv some poor sap who went 3 hatch before pool just like I would have in the old days. Not going to lie, felt good. Wanted to see what real builds were so started watching a few SC2 streams here and there when no DOTA2 I wanted to watch was on. Then I randomly got twitter update in email that had an Artosis tweet about GSL so I watched it. In fact I watched all the GSL this week every game live and enjoyed it quite a lot. Tastosis was as good as ever and it was pretty good. So then I watched some of HomeStoryCup. Frankly the stuff I watched was pretty bad lol. Now partly here though I knew very, very few of the players because I have not kept up on the scene and not many of the same names. I was super happy to watch DeMuslim play although I had to take the caster couch's word for it that he was the underdog etc etc. Overall the games in the first group stage were very inferior to the GSL pre season tourney and I am pretty sure anyone would think that? Which is the obvious criticism of this region lock.
So all of that to say, I am hopeful that this region lock will work and improve the available stories in the pro-scene. I am willing to give up quality of games for that potentially. Will happily watch Koreans play in Korea, and foreigners play "worse" games in their tourneys if it provides an infrastructure that will allow SOME foreigners to improve and rise to the top. If it does not do that and is a total failure I am sure it will be changed but tbh if it fails that utterly I will probably have lost interest in the game again by then anyways. For people acting like this could never ever happen, I guess I would point to DOTA as an example. There was a time when China dominated DOTA1 almost to the Korean SC level. It has taken a lot of time but for a variety of reasons the Western scene is now pretty much unarguably stronger than china and has certainly been competitive for some time. I think several of those reasons could be applicable to SC2 eventually and that the ability to make a living playing the game for foreigners is a HUGE one.
For the first time in years I am interested in playing and watching SC2 (to the point where I am considering spending a shitton of money to get decent internet to my home in the boondocks so I can actually play) and the region locking definitely is part of what gives me hope that it is worth trying to follow the scene again. Nerchio's point early in the thread is DEFINITELY true by the way, that the people who loyally followed SC2 through HotS and are active on TL are NOT the viewers and playerbase that they are trying to gain back and it is totally unsurprising that many of them are opposed to it.
On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote: Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor.
How was HotS a terrible game?
edit: found your response
Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners.
Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected.
I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV.
Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
Awww, someone's mad I pointed out the hypocrisy of a pro speaking negatively about Brood Lord-Infestor while himself being a prime beneficiary of it. Don't worry; keep being mad and staying the sensitive snowflake that you are.
You can use something that is op (specially If its the only good option) and still critizise it. That is not what constitutes hypocrisy, mister.
Also You do Come off as a jerk, it has nothing to do with us being sensitive.
Actually, it is a great system. Flash, MMA, Rain and a few more players stated, how much they like the new system and how they feel sorry for not being able to use it.
eh, if the Koreans were Africans, it would be more readily apparent to everyone. Oh well. There are always pros and cons. This will definitely help stimulate the Starcraft scene in other countries. But it is without a doubt, racist. Even though the majority of foreigners are not skilled as the Koreans, their games are entertaining and I still learn from their matches. Pros and cons... Pros and cons... Still it's racist.
hmmm... this system will surely please people who actually take pride in how they were born a certain way.. you know something they did not earn or takes no skill.
Not really related to this, but I just saw something about pay for Korean KeSPA players
This data comes from 40 players from the 8 KeSPA-registered corporation founded professional teams that have finalized their official contracts as of right now, December 2015 (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, NaJin, Longzhu, Tigers) and 25 players from 5 StarCraft II teams (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air). The published data also excludes the players’ personal streaming incomes, performance bonuses (“incentives”), and prize money, and there may be a few changes to a few figures once a few more signings take place prior to the opening of the 2016 season.
The actual average salary is $57,717 for League of Legends and $39,106 for StarCraft II. There are 10 players in League of Legends who receive a salary of over $85,229. Additionally, when taking into consideration the amount of income from the players’ respective streaming activities, performance bonuses, and prize money which have already been provided by the association to the players for 2015, the average salary for KeSPA registered corporation founded professional eSports players is estimated to be $68,189 for League of Legends and over $42,604 for StarCraft II players.
Quite interesting that there isn't a single SC2 with above 85k salary. I'm sure Flash would have had, but I would have thought a couple others would have too.
I imagine the other teams don't pay so well though.
This data comes from 40 players from the 8 KeSPA-registered corporation founded professional teams that have finalized their official contracts as of right now, December 2015 (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, NaJin, Longzhu, Tigers) and 25 players from 5 StarCraft II teams (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air). The published data also excludes the players’ personal streaming incomes, performance bonuses (“incentives”), and prize money, and there may be a few changes to a few figures once a few more signings take place prior to the opening of the 2016 season.
The actual average salary is $57,717 for League of Legends and $39,106 for StarCraft II. There are 10 players in League of Legends who receive a salary of over $85,229. Additionally, when taking into consideration the amount of income from the players’ respective streaming activities, performance bonuses, and prize money which have already been provided by the association to the players for 2015, the average salary for KeSPA registered corporation founded professional eSports players is estimated to be $68,189 for League of Legends and over $42,604 for StarCraft II players.
Quite interesting that there isn't a single SC2 with above 85k salary. I'm sure Flash would have had, but I would have thought a couple others would have too.
I imagine the other teams don't pay so well though.
KeSPA claimed that this data is an inaccurate representation though; they're releasing their data soon
On December 24 2015 13:49 Phredxor wrote: Not really related to this, but I just saw something about pay for Korean KeSPA players
This data comes from 40 players from the 8 KeSPA-registered corporation founded professional teams that have finalized their official contracts as of right now, December 2015 (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, NaJin, Longzhu, Tigers) and 25 players from 5 StarCraft II teams (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air). The published data also excludes the players’ personal streaming incomes, performance bonuses (“incentives”), and prize money, and there may be a few changes to a few figures once a few more signings take place prior to the opening of the 2016 season.
The actual average salary is $57,717 for League of Legends and $39,106 for StarCraft II. There are 10 players in League of Legends who receive a salary of over $85,229. Additionally, when taking into consideration the amount of income from the players’ respective streaming activities, performance bonuses, and prize money which have already been provided by the association to the players for 2015, the average salary for KeSPA registered corporation founded professional eSports players is estimated to be $68,189 for League of Legends and over $42,604 for StarCraft II players.
Quite interesting that there isn't a single SC2 with above 85k salary. I'm sure Flash would have had, but I would have thought a couple others would have too.
I imagine the other teams don't pay so well though.
KeSPA claimed that this data is an inaccurate representation though; they're releasing their data soon
On December 24 2015 13:49 Phredxor wrote: Not really related to this, but I just saw something about pay for Korean KeSPA players
This data comes from 40 players from the 8 KeSPA-registered corporation founded professional teams that have finalized their official contracts as of right now, December 2015 (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, NaJin, Longzhu, Tigers) and 25 players from 5 StarCraft II teams (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air). The published data also excludes the players’ personal streaming incomes, performance bonuses (“incentives”), and prize money, and there may be a few changes to a few figures once a few more signings take place prior to the opening of the 2016 season.
The actual average salary is $57,717 for League of Legends and $39,106 for StarCraft II. There are 10 players in League of Legends who receive a salary of over $85,229. Additionally, when taking into consideration the amount of income from the players’ respective streaming activities, performance bonuses, and prize money which have already been provided by the association to the players for 2015, the average salary for KeSPA registered corporation founded professional eSports players is estimated to be $68,189 for League of Legends and over $42,604 for StarCraft II players.
Quite interesting that there isn't a single SC2 with above 85k salary. I'm sure Flash would have had, but I would have thought a couple others would have too.
I imagine the other teams don't pay so well though.
KeSPA claimed that this data is an inaccurate representation though; they're releasing their data soon
That is KeSPA's data. The one they claimed was inaccurate was from a couple days ago. And I find it very informative that they left out the 2 poorest teams, and obviously some players, too, if they only got 25 players from 5 teams...
On December 24 2015 13:49 Phredxor wrote: Not really related to this, but I just saw something about pay for Korean KeSPA players
This data comes from 40 players from the 8 KeSPA-registered corporation founded professional teams that have finalized their official contracts as of right now, December 2015 (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air, NaJin, Longzhu, Tigers) and 25 players from 5 StarCraft II teams (KT, Samsung, SKT, CJ, Jin Air). The published data also excludes the players’ personal streaming incomes, performance bonuses (“incentives”), and prize money, and there may be a few changes to a few figures once a few more signings take place prior to the opening of the 2016 season.
The actual average salary is $57,717 for League of Legends and $39,106 for StarCraft II. There are 10 players in League of Legends who receive a salary of over $85,229. Additionally, when taking into consideration the amount of income from the players’ respective streaming activities, performance bonuses, and prize money which have already been provided by the association to the players for 2015, the average salary for KeSPA registered corporation founded professional eSports players is estimated to be $68,189 for League of Legends and over $42,604 for StarCraft II players.
Quite interesting that there isn't a single SC2 with above 85k salary. I'm sure Flash would have had, but I would have thought a couple others would have too.
I imagine the other teams don't pay so well though.
KeSPA claimed that this data is an inaccurate representation though; they're releasing their data soon
That is KeSPA's data. The one they claimed was inaccurate was from a couple days ago. And I find it very informative that they left out the 2 poorest teams, and obviously some players, too, if they only got 25 players from 5 teams...
Oh my bad, didn't see that they'd released already
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/2015/wcs/wcs2016.jpg)
Damn 
" meh 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4Gu5aYz.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/M40plO6)
