EPTDo you have anything to support this claim? I've seen people saying the opposite too.
2016 StarCraft II World Championship Series - Page 28
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Do you have anything to support this claim? I've seen people saying the opposite too. | ||
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pNRG
United States333 Posts
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: Blizzard isn't stifling the Korean scene. It has gotten smaller because there's less interest in it. Blizzard is just sponsoring its own game. It's in Blizzard's interests to keep competition alive in NA and EU as well as KR. Asking Blizzard to focus its sponsorship on just KR is asking Blizzard to act against its own interests, which sounds more like welfare to me. The money doesn't align with what's best for pure competition. That's true in every professional sport. If it's your hobby to unproductively bemoan this reality, then whatever, but this is a particularly unsuitable situation for you to protest because there will still be a ton of good SC2 competition in 2016. Thanks, NonY, I pretty much agree here. Most (anecdotal) posters on this board seem to have a massive KR bias. Seems that hasn't (and won't) change. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On December 19 2015 01:11 SC2Toastie wrote: Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level? Correlation and causation pls? At least don't use phrases like World Championship if you're actively eliminating over 90% of the contenders with random rules set in place to protect the worse players with the good contacts. There was a very long period of time when Korea didn't need money from the west at all. In fact, virtually every sponsor they had was a Korean company, most of which had no international presence. They weren't even trying to get any support from outside Korea. Sometimes Coke would sponsor, and of course Samsung is huge internationally, etc, but the sponsors were not giving money based on international appeal. When did you become a fan of SC as an esport? Like not during the first decade of this millennium? The money that Blizzard put into the Korean scene has been a drop in the bucket. It's not growing because it's not the #1 game anymore. Why don't you direct your anger at the Korean League of Legends scene instead of being upset that Blizzard can't justify supporting solely the Korean scene? | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 19 2015 01:17 NonY wrote: There was a very long period of time when Korea didn't need money from the west at all. In fact, virtually every sponsor they had was a Korean company, most of which had no international presence. They weren't even trying to get any support from outside Korea. Sometimes Coke would sponsor, and of course Samsung is huge internationally, etc, but the sponsors were not giving money based on international appeal. When did you become a fan of SC as an esport? Like not during the first decade of this millennium? The money that Blizzard put into the Korean scene has been a drop in the bucket. It's not growing because it's not the #1 game anymore. Why don't you direct your anger at the Korean League of Legends scene instead of being upset that Blizzard can't justify supporting solely the Korean scene? But why do you say "support just the Korean scene"? I haven't read any post here demanding that. With all due respect (and i have a lot for you for the work and dedication with BW and even SC2), you are making a straw man argument. | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste. There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste. Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste. . I think you are overlooking a viewpoint that I think has been expressed here many times: that the 2016 setup does not look very promising for increasing the ability of non-Koreans to fight Koreans, because it will contribute to isolating these two groups of players. And that's a very important point in my opinion. I personally really like a lot of the "foreign" players. I enjoy seeing them on events and the HSC that is going on right now is an absolute delight. But the greatest thing is watching them go succesfully head-to-head with the mighty Korean overlords. And I am afraid that isolation is not the way to make that happen. I am not claiming that I know what IS the right way, it only seems to me that there is not much reason to think this is. The angle of "who is it fair to give money" is misleaded in my opinion. It is Blizzard's money, they can literarly give it to anyone they want, it's not like they come from taxpayers or something. For me personally the main problem is the whole idea of people being separated by country, I don't like that in ANY walk of life and see enough of that shit everywhere. We here are the generation and the group of people who are supposed to be the most forward thinking, that's what you should get out of almost umlimited global communication that internet gives us. E-sports is our thing. We should be the first ones to abolish bad habits of the past society, such as borders and segregation of people. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
Koreans locked out from DH and IEM? Fuck this shit, or? | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans. It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste. There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste. Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists. I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition. So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all. But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness. As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
i'm still frothing at the mouth though, that they ACTUALLY FUCKING BANNED KOREANS FROM INTERNATIONAL and OPEN EVENTS?! Those events are OPEN for a reason, | ||
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Dingodile
4136 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:05 Incognoto wrote: 2 seasons a year for Korea only? Koreans locked out from DH and IEM? Fuck this shit, or? They have Kespa tournaments, apparently another 3 which one is IEM Taipeh. | ||
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AWalker9
United Kingdom7229 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:13 Dingodile wrote: They have Kespa tournaments, apparently another 3 which one is IEM Taipeh. IEM Taipei is an invitational so it won't give WCS points | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote: I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans. It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste. There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste. Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists. I know this point has been said by opisska... but that's basically it. I don't mind Blizzard investing in the foreign scene. I think it's great because they're putting money to what they want to create. I don't think it'll do anything to improve viewership though. Right now, each region is going to be increasingly more isolated vs each other. That's a problem. It's clear that after some Koreans migrated over to EU, the competition in EU went up. Viewers aren't going to want to watch Lilbow get stomped by Life again, because that's what's going to happen. There's absolutely no incentive for foreigners to practice for Blizzcon because the skill gap is simply too high, and we've seen what happened when that's the case. It makes bad games, it makes foreigners look bad, and it makes the scene look bad. What needs to happen is for Blizzard to spend money to develop foreign players so that they can compete, toe to toe, with the best Koreans. There is nothing in this WCS that shows that. It will foster foreign competition amongst each other and possibly give better games, but they're always going to be lagging behind Korea. And when people who don't normally watch SC2, watch Blizzcon and see foreigners get absolutely rekt'd, who's going to want to watch that? The best and most watched games have always been TOP foreigners vs TOP Koreans and foreigners either winning or putting up an amazing fight. It's why Stephano is so popular still. Why Idra somehow maintains a fan base bigger than the top 5 current foreigners. Why everyone remembers Scarlett vs Bomber. It's why Lilbow had such a popular WCS run. | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
I think you are overlooking a viewpoint that I think has been expressed here many times: that the 2016 setup does not look very promising for increasing the ability of non-Koreans to fight Koreans, because it will contribute to isolating these two groups of players. Hmm it is the players choosing to isolate themselves. Anyone can connect to the Asian b.net server, get their MMR high and play 40 games a day against the best in the world. I'm sure some people live in places where the latency is so high that it becomes unplayable, but there are also plenty of places to live (without having to move to Korea) where it's fine. And players aren't prohibited from moving to Korea, anyway. And it's not just ladder -- non-Koreans have always been able to form relationships with Korean players and play customs and become "practice partners" for the Korean teams. I'm not sure how the format is supposed to improve practice habits and policies. What could you have been hoping for with the format that would increase the chance of a non-Korean beating a Korean? It seems like such an abstract and indirect way to go about improving a player's skill level when more direct and effective methods are already available. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:07 Sapphire.lux wrote: I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition. So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all. But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness. As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players. Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans? There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen. | ||
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MaCRo.gg
Korea (South)860 Posts
These racist attempts to undermine their strength through financial means is pathetic and irrelevant. Koreans are used to dealing with huge handicaps, they will prove themselves the better yet again. | ||
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corydoras
161 Posts
On December 19 2015 01:08 NonY wrote: And it's no wonder that pros hardly ever post on TL anymore like they used to. A bunch of negative and unproductive people acting like they're trying to repel pros. You only ever get someone like Nerchio who happens to read it and can't resist trying to correct the nonsense from people with no experience and no idea what they're talking about. It used to be that the best non-Koreans could come here and get endless support from the fans, even if people were realistic and respectful about how much better some Koreans were than them. And now it's negativity that has gone so extreme "I won't cheer for a non-Korean even if he is better than Koreans" jesus..... God, this is so right. If I was a pro, I would read the attitude I see more often than not on TL.net (I don't follow reddit, so no idea if it's worse or better there) as: "Go eff yourself, either you travel to Korea and play there or I will always consider you inferior in skill and in terms of entertainment value and not worthy any money, so why don't you just quit playing". If playing SC2 was my job, in such circumstances it just wouldn't be much fun. Also if all sports fans were like this, most national teams in basketball or football/soccer, not to mention national leagues, should just cease to operate. | ||
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BlackCompany
Germany8388 Posts
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Kingsky
Singapore298 Posts
i dont want a lilbow vs life nonsense again =/ | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:20 Chaggi wrote: Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans? There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen. Yeah, well...it's fairly clear to me that the message at this point is that "we will be the same and get more money" instead of "this will make us improve in order to compete with the best". We will see how the fan base reacts to that in the coming year. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On December 19 2015 02:13 Dingodile wrote: They have Kespa tournaments, apparently another 3 which one is IEM Taipeh. The prestige between a KeSPA Cup/ and IEM invitationnal with 8 players compare to a proper starleague is laughable. And we lost tons of series with the new SSL format (I quite like as it's clearly something different but it's less content). I like the fact we get a better deal for foreigners, the real problem is that this deal is made by fucking over the koreans and not only those who only farmed oversea tournaments. | ||
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