|
On December 19 2015 02:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 02:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 19 2015 02:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote:
I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists. I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition. So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all. But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness. As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players. Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans? There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen. Yeah, well...it's fairly clear to me that the message at this point is that "we will be the same and get more money" instead of "this will make us improve in order to compete with the best". We will see how the fan base reacts to that in the coming year.
The fan base is gonna enjoy seeing HuK's famous 8 gate 2 base, top 3 aggression over and over again
|
On December 19 2015 03:00 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 02:37 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 19 2015 02:20 Chaggi wrote:On December 19 2015 02:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:On December 19 2015 01:45 NonY wrote:
I did not get the feeling that SC2Toastie is in support of welfare. As far as I understand it, if all money going to non-Koreans is welfare, then the only good use of Blizzard's money is for Koreans.
It's also been an extremely common opinion in this thread that non-Koreans have no chance of competing with Koreans so any money going to them is a waste.
There are also people who think there's no point in trying to develop another region where SC2 players become good. We already have Seoul and if non-Koreans want to become good, they should just move to Seoul. So again, money going to other regions is a waste.
Of course, there are people on every point of the spectrum of opinions. But to address your concern that I'm addressing no one when arguing against all money going to Korea, I'm pretty sure some of those people are reading this thread. And for the people who aren't that extreme about it, they can still get something out of what I'm saying despite me specifically addressing the extremists. I think the point of contention here is whether the changes will actually motivate people to get much better, or if they will be more or less the same but with more money due to less competition. So in effect, the skill gap remains the same, but the money is redirected more and more towards the less skilled. This give people the feeling that it's just unfair. Hard work should be reworded after all. But if it proves that the changes motivate foreigners to increase in skill and one day compete with Koreans shoulder to shoulder, i think even the critics will be over the moon with happiness. As far as i'm concerned, i've seen how foreigners can be really good when they practice in Korea, and i've seen that in US/EU they can not organize themselves to create the environment necessary for improvement. So i'm skeptical that by banning Koreans will magically result in better players. Has there been any evidence that with more money that the skill gap is just going to go away? That foreigners are magically going to be able to practice more and be on the same tier as Koreans? There's not and it's silly to assume that's going to happen. Yeah, well...it's fairly clear to me that the message at this point is that "we will be the same and get more money" instead of "this will make us improve in order to compete with the best". We will see how the fan base reacts to that in the coming year. The fan base is gonna enjoy seeing HuK's famous 8 gate 2 base, top 3 aggression over and over again
Or Lilbow's +2 Blink Stalker All ins
|
On December 18 2015 12:36 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 08:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote:
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor. How was HotS a terrible game? edit: found your response Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners. Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected. I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV. Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves.
Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
|
On December 19 2015 03:10 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 12:36 EatingBomber wrote:On December 18 2015 08:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote:
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor. How was HotS a terrible game? edit: found your response Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners. Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected. I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV. Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves. Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
I disagree with people being rude to pros just to come of as important, as pros have literally their financial life on the line, unlike fans.
Having said that, the reason TL is a special forum IMO, is that it does not matter what your name is, but what the argument is. If you are Idra, or Incontrol or newPoster2000, it's all about the points you make and the arguments supporting them. When the arguments are flawed, you get exposed. It's not a place where known people get to be right because they are known. Pros are people too and they can be wrong, or misunderstood.
If some pros are afraid of posting because people might not agree with them then i'm sorry, i wish i could read more posts from personalities of SC2.
Long live TL :p
|
I'd love for a professional player to come to this thread and start coming up with bullshit reasons as to why Koreans should be discriminated against.
E: I swear, for me this is the death of the foreign scene. I don't give a SHIT about foreigners any longer. They are irrelevant to Starcraft now.
|
Nothing much to add to what I said in the earlier thread, so I'll summarize:
- I see absolutely no need in watching WCS Circuit. Welfare tournaments for players who can't compete with the best? No thanks.
- More money for Korea is good.
- Blizzcon will be an 8-man tournament between the best Koreans.
Overall this is an awful idea.
Edit: Also, so it's fine for foreigners to play in Korea, but not the other way around? Discrimination is seldom this blatant. I guess it won't matter that foreigners can play in Korea in the end, since they never deliver any results while there.
|
On December 19 2015 02:29 BlackCompany wrote:
I think it's kind of funny that Blizzard forces foreigners into Blizzcon/WCS-playoffs by giving them 8 spots and then put 2 koreans + 2 foreigners in each group to make it useless again. So WCS-finals is basically like last year expect it's only a ro8 bracket
Yeah, I really don't see the point of inviting 8 foreigners... I'd much rather see 14-2 or 12-4. The winners of the last two WCS championships were the 14th seed! Imagine 2014 if Life (and MMA #9) wouldn't have qualified!!
@Incognoto
We still get awesome SC2 out of KR - especially with some more prize money going there!
I think that the western scene benefits from this change. We already saw some events pass on sc2 last year. This ensures that these tournaments continue. We also get a more even playing field which should turn into better matches. "naama DH#10 winner never4get" still comes up in the local scene. I look forward to serral's first circuit win and it's going to be a big deal keeping sc2 going here.
|
Gonna be a quiet year for SC2. I hope I can find some passion for LoTV along the way...
|
On December 19 2015 03:10 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 12:36 EatingBomber wrote:On December 18 2015 08:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote:
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor. How was HotS a terrible game? edit: found your response Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners. Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected. I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV. Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves. Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential.
When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users.
|
How dare Blizzard put money into the scenes that actually support the game!
|
On December 19 2015 04:06 jmbthirteen wrote:
How dare Blizzard put money into the scenes that actually support the game!
Except they're shitting it away vs investing it in actual infrastructure to develop a scene.
|
On December 19 2015 04:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 03:10 Doodsmack wrote:On December 18 2015 12:36 EatingBomber wrote:On December 18 2015 08:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote:
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor. How was HotS a terrible game? edit: found your response Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners. Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected. I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV. Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves. Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential. When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users.
I think Nerchio should be given some leeway in this respect - it's a guy that's actually like really, really good and he speaks his mind openly, which is a quality I appreciate. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to give a lot of shit about being "confronted" by internet nobodies like us, so ... whatever 
|
On December 19 2015 04:12 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 04:04 Charoisaur wrote:On December 19 2015 03:10 Doodsmack wrote:On December 18 2015 12:36 EatingBomber wrote:On December 18 2015 08:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote:
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor. How was HotS a terrible game? edit: found your response Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners. Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected. I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV. Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves. Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential. When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users. I think Nerchio should be given some leeway in this respect - it's a guy that's actually like really, really good and he speaks his mind openly, which is a quality I appreciate. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to give a lot of shit about being "confronted" by internet nobodies like us, so ... whatever
Exactly! It's interesting how the only ones that tend to post are the ones that have actually worked super hard, at least at one point. I think they know that even if they are "confronted" people still have massive respect for their hard work and dedication, be it Nony, Nerchio, TLO, Idra in the past etc. The fact that they are willing to interact in this way is proof IMO that they are made of a different cloth then most.
I think it's fantastic that posters can have huge respect for a player and still contradict them on certain points. This is fantastic communication IMO.
|
On December 19 2015 01:11 SC2Toastie wrote:
Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level?
people are bored of the genre and are moving on to other game types. this is why ATVI, Microsoft and EA have lowered the amount of resources devoted to the genre. Sigaty stated their next RTS game is 10+ years away. They've never taken a break this long from the genre that built their company.
Blizzard can not impact consumer tastes they can only react to them. They are reacting correctly. So is EA and Microsoft.
Blizzard makes billions in profit by making games and makes nothing by running competitive leagues.
|
On December 19 2015 04:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 01:11 SC2Toastie wrote:
Maybe it's not growing because Blizzard keeps making it harder for Koreans to earn the money in the west and keeps making it more and more easy for people who cannot perform at the highest level?
people are bored of the genre and are moving on to other game types. this is why ATVI, Microsoft and EA have lowered the amount of resources devoted to the genre. Sigary stated their next RTS game is 10+ years away. They've never taken a break this long from the genre that built their company. Blizzard can not impact consumer tastes they can only react to them. They are reacting correctly. So is EA and Microsoft. Blizzard makes profit by making games not by running competitive leagues.
And they never will.
|
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
|
i'm just happy they made the best RTS games when the genre was in its prime earning years.
i gave Blizzard money , but it was entirely voluntary. You could get everything they made by pirating it.
|
season finals should be interesting.
|
On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote:
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash.
Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
|
On December 19 2015 03:32 Incognoto wrote:
I'd love for a professional player to come to this thread and start coming up with bullshit reasons as to why Koreans should be discriminated against.
E: I swear, for me this is the death of the foreign scene. I don't give a SHIT about foreigners any longer. They are irrelevant to Starcraft now.
So basically you are a card-carrying drama queen?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
