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On December 18 2015 13:54 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2015 13:50 Cele wrote:On December 18 2015 13:31 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 18 2015 13:28 Cele wrote:On December 18 2015 13:12 BLinD-RawR wrote:On December 18 2015 13:06 Cele wrote:
interesting changes. not sure if i like them.. we have unrelated reasons to like them. so what are yours? i didnt even say why i like or dislike em ^^ less GSL means more use of afreeca studio for BW content like the NSL. Although I'm not sure if a deal has been made between kespa and afreeca on broadcasting rights for proleague, can't expect SPOTV to do both proleague LCK and other LoL content on their own, after all even the LoL stuff is shared with OGN, maybe the same can be done for SC2, then again what do I know, things rarely go as I say they do. yeah interesting. But then im not sure if we would have more BW if there was more studio time. I think the bigger issue is actually sponsorship. With SSL being discontinued by SBENU's dwindling ineterst in the format, (acc to Sonic's statement) that seems to be more of a problem to me. Anyways, more studio space won't hinder BW, that's for sure. Sidenote: It's really weird how this Sc2 <-> interaction works out often these days. And i don't mean game bashing in the forums. It's just in the korean market, where we all turn our eyes too, both games actually struggle for the same ressources in parts. It's the same discussion with sponsors and players really. SBENU dropping BW is good for Sc2 as they will focus more time/money there (even more on LoL im sure) and likewise BW fans are often not too sad about Flash's retirement, given the higher likelyhood of him streaming on afreeca soon. A weird interaction really, but im getting of topic :> well having the studio open to them helps a lot, means that acquiring sponsorship doesn't become their primary concern it makes it their only one, I have no doubts in YellOw's ability to get sponsors anyway.
YellOw hasn't been running Kongdoo in a long while, 서경종 is instead. Sbenu is in bad terms (financially, legally, and commercially) due to its low quality shoes and a court battle going on with its brand name patent. (there was another serious thing but I forgot) Verdict should be out in a few months but yeah Sbenu isn't doing so hot.
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I would have much more preferred to lessen the prizepool and kept the number of gsl and ssl seasons... Money is a big thing for foreigners but not kespa players imo
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Also, in an unrelated note, Rain has been appearing in HyuK's stream (playing Zerg BW), and HyuK said that Rain donated liver to his father. Would be nice if anyone could confirm in TL.
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2 seasons.... With SSL no group stage....
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On December 19 2015 04:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote:
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc. Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash. Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul.
Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans.
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On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote:
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc.
Yes. Buy, steal, overpay, kidnap ... Korean coaches. Let them built a "Korean style" training house in EU, NA, abywhere. Select the TOP promising players from a region, Serral, Snute, ShowTime, Ptit Drogo, Marinelord, NErchio ... Take them for free into this training house, after they sign, they will remain there for one month full time. PUSH THEM AND FORCE THEM to develop and train in the Korean style. Then, they will learn, what works, how, they not only learn that, they will LIVE IT. Not having nice team house with nice players with nice personalities as TL is. But seeing, how it is done in Korea. If good and successful, run another month with another group of players. And another, maybe with the same group from first month ... I believe, this would help.
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On December 19 2015 04:44 Fliparoni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 04:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote:
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc. Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash. Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul. Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans.
IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train...
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On December 19 2015 04:57 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 04:44 Fliparoni wrote:On December 19 2015 04:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote:
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc. Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash. Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul. Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans. IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train...
But in helping players train better to be truly the best it does more to keep the scene alive than this welfare sham that is going to happen. Besides, Koreans or not, viewership will always be much smaller compared to other esports. The RTS genre and Starcraft in particular is simply not a very accessible game compared to others which leads to a much smaller playerbase. A game that isn't widely played isn't widely going to be watched. This isn't real life sports where the vast majority of people that watch don't really play that sport in real life.
So IMO blizz giving welfare money to a foreign scene that isn't likely to grow much beyond what it is plus discriminating against the games top players is a dumb mistake
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I don't think blizzard's changes here amount to discrimination. Any support by blizzard of esports is charity, unless you want to argue it's for marketing purposes. And The stated goal of supporting the lagging foreign scene makes it reason-based rather than discriminatory (even if you disagree with the reasoning). Koreans have an advantage over foreigners owing to their existing infrastructure and single-city proximity. So one could argue blizzard's changes even the playing field.
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On December 19 2015 05:34 Doodsmack wrote:
I don't think blizzard's changes here amount to discrimination. Any support by blizzard of esports is charity, unless you want to argue it's for marketing purposes. And The stated goal of supporting the lagging foreign scene makes it reason-based rather than discriminatory (even if you disagree with the reasoning). Koreans have an advantage over foreigners owing to their existing infrastructure and single-city proximity. So one could argue blizzard's changes even the playing field.
Evens the playing field by making it easier for foreigners to win due to the absence of top level competition(Koreans)? Yes. Evens the playing field by evening out the skill gap? No. So in terms of skill the foreign scene will always be lagging behind, the minor leagues if you will, with the changes that blizzard is making.
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The only way to even the skill gap is for foreigners to move to Seoul and assimilate with the language spoken there. Which is not going to happen due to money. But it would make sense for there to be monetary sustainability outside of Korea, which maybe is what blizzard's system accomplishes.
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On December 19 2015 05:58 Doodsmack wrote:
The only way to even the skill gap is for foreigners to move to Seoul and assimilate with the language spoken there. Which is not going to happen due to money. But it would make sense for there to be monetary sustainability outside of Korea, which maybe is what blizzard's system accomplishes.
I realize this is a large thread and reading through it all is unrealistic but that is what I and others have been saying. Instead of what blizz is doing now they should be investing money into a better training environment for foreigners so that you don't have to go to korea to be as good as the koreans. They could throw money at korean coaches until they agree to come here and help train foreigners, etc etc etc. Sustainability through foreigners actually getting better and having better morale instead of supporting the status quo aka mediocrity.
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On December 19 2015 05:12 Fliparoni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 04:57 y0su wrote:On December 19 2015 04:44 Fliparoni wrote:On December 19 2015 04:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote:
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc. Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash. Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul. Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans. IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train... But in helping players train better to be truly the best it does more to keep the scene alive than this welfare sham that is going to happen. Besides, Koreans or not, viewership will always be much smaller compared to other esports. The RTS genre and Starcraft in particular is simply not a very accessible game compared to others which leads to a much smaller playerbase. A game that isn't widely played isn't widely going to be watched. This isn't real life sports where the vast majority of people that watch don't really play that sport in real life. So IMO blizz giving welfare money to a foreign scene that isn't likely to grow much beyond what it is plus discriminating against the games top players is a dumb mistake
And how do Korean style training houses/teams help increase CASUAL viewer interest in sc2 so that DH keeps running tournaments?
Agree with everything or not, but Blizzard has done a lot to make LotV more interesting as an esport. Now they're putting money into keeping SC2 rolling at major events. If their gamble pays off and the viewer numbers increase we could see more sponsors coming back as well. If the scene becomes sustainable without Blizzard money we can look at what can be done for foreigners to improve..
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On December 19 2015 04:04 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 03:10 Doodsmack wrote:On December 18 2015 12:36 EatingBomber wrote:On December 18 2015 08:53 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2015 08:34 Nerchio wrote:
Hots being a terrible game didn't help either, these were the 2 things that got matched together. In WOL somehow we had players that could sometimes player or even beat the best koreans( Stephano/ Naniwa/ me/ Thorzain or whatever). Don't tell me about broodlord infestor. How was HotS a terrible game? edit: found your response Even if you're right about certain MUs becoming worse (ZvZ, ZvP), I don't understand why that should disproportionately affect Koreans differently from foreigners. Besides, there are no doubts that the most talented Zergs in Korea were able to win during HotS - Soulkey, soO, ByuL, Life are all indisputably respected for their skills. So regardless of the MUs being better or worse in some esoteric sense, they must have been rewarding skilled players or Soulkey/soO/ByuL/Life wouldn't have continued winning. Again, foreigners are disproportionately affected. I think what's a lot more likely is that the skill ceiling went up with HotS and went up again with LotV. I don't believe it is a coincidence that foreign Terrans enjoyed the least amount of success in HotS and will again in LotV. Ah, a patchzerg of WoL who got rightfully crushed by Mvp in IEM Cologne complains about Brood Lord-Infestor. Truly, the jokes write themselves. Are you consciously trying to come off as a douchebag? Getting tough on pros when you see them post on TL? LOL I always find it funny that people get some power kick out of "confronting" pros posting on TL. Apparently it makes you feel influential. When pros shitpost on the forums they deserve to be "confronted" by other TL users.
And here you are again. Can´t believe you are still around. Hope you enjoy LotV as much as I do.
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On December 19 2015 06:15 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2015 05:12 Fliparoni wrote:On December 19 2015 04:57 y0su wrote:On December 19 2015 04:44 Fliparoni wrote:On December 19 2015 04:33 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 19 2015 04:28 Fliparoni wrote:
Historically, Korea has always been where the best Starcraft players are, and this welfare prize money that blizz is handing to the foreign scene won't change a thing about that. Until foreign pros organize and train like actual professionals rather than blindly laddering all day they will never hope to bridge the skill gap. What blizzard should have done is invest in better training tools for foreign players like teamhouses with coaches, etc. Foreign pros need to go the Guilliame Patry route to win. However, its too much effort for not enough monetary reward. I can't blame any of them if they don't want to assimilate themselves into Korean culture, learn a new language and then further assimilate into the pro-game sub-culture. Too much hassle for not enough cash. Now , if there were UFC level PPV money flying around with gates of $10 million+ and buy rates of 1 million and i were an SC2 pro.. i'd be on the first flight to Seoul. Which bring me back again to my point that instead of blizz giving out welfare money by discriminating against Koreans, they should actually use their money to invest in a foreign scene that promotes foreigners actually getting better through a better training environment so that foreigners don't have to go to Korea to get as good as Koreans. IMO they're doing more to promote viewers and keep SC2 part of major tournament/gaming events (keep the scene alive). It's not up to them to help players train... But in helping players train better to be truly the best it does more to keep the scene alive than this welfare sham that is going to happen. Besides, Koreans or not, viewership will always be much smaller compared to other esports. The RTS genre and Starcraft in particular is simply not a very accessible game compared to others which leads to a much smaller playerbase. A game that isn't widely played isn't widely going to be watched. This isn't real life sports where the vast majority of people that watch don't really play that sport in real life. So IMO blizz giving welfare money to a foreign scene that isn't likely to grow much beyond what it is plus discriminating against the games top players is a dumb mistake And how do Korean style training houses/teams help increase CASUAL viewer interest in sc2 so that DH keeps running tournaments? Agree with everything or not, but Blizzard has done a lot to make LotV more interesting as an esport. Now they're putting money into keeping SC2 rolling at major events. If their gamble pays off and the viewer numbers increase we could see more sponsors coming back as well. If the scene becomes sustainable without Blizzard money we can look at what can be done for foreigners to improve..
Competetive Starcraft (RTS in general) is not a casual game and doesn't appeal to both casual viewers and casual players. Nothing Blizzard will do is gonna change that. It will never have the viewership numbers of LoL, CS, Hearthstone etc. A game that is NOT widely played will NOT have a wide viewership. This isn't like real sports where most fans don't play that game in real life. Catering to a demographic that is highly unlikely to grow that much beyond what it is doesn't make sense to me. The way the system is setup now is arguably sustainable already (with of course some changes here and there but not to the extent of these changes). LoL and CS are like American Football and soccer with their more broad appeal and huge viewer numbers. Starcraft is more like Tennis or boxing even with its more niche appeal and lower viewer numbers and that's not a bad thing.
IMO (which I am well aware is not that of a casual persons point of view) the storyline of the foreigner slaying the giants of Starcraft (koreans) is the best and most memorable storylines that ever happened in Starcraft. Thats what received the most hype and hype is what sells. Who really cares if average Joe foreigner vs average Joe foreigner beats each other. The foreigners slaying the koreans at their own game on an even playing ground would be the biggest thing ever for me.
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I mean maybe its just me but I don't play LoL or CS or HS so I have no interest whatsoever in watching those games online. If I didn't play Starcraft I would have no interest in watching it as an Esport either. Increase people's interest in actually playing Starcraft and RTS games in general again and that is a sure fire way to increase viewership. This is all easier said than done of course and maybe the gaming world in general has just simply moved on from RTS games so that it will not be viable anymore in the future. Of course I could be totally wrong about all this but thats just IMO
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What I'm saying is you can't achieve skill equality by bringing Korean coaches to foreign training houses. The only way to achieve skill equality is for foreigners to move to Seoul and learn korean, and practice with them full fledged. Which basically, is not going to happen. So might as well shoot for sustainability in all markets.
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On December 19 2015 06:50 Doodsmack wrote:
What I'm saying is you can't achieve skill equality by bringing Korean coaches to foreign training houses. The only way to achieve skill equality is for foreigners to move to Seoul and learn korean, and practice with them full fledged. Which basically, is not going to happen. So might as well shoot for sustainability in all markets.
And IMO you can if you had proper coaches with the right training environment and worked as hard as the Koreans do. Koreans aren't naturally better at Starcraft. It's their work ethic and training environment.
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I think you have to be playing against Koreans though, and talking with them, because they are the best. That's why you have to be in Seoul.
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No more IEM's for herO....?
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EPT
